in this ongoing conflict. thank you for watching. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ hello america, i'm mark levin. this is life, liberty and levin. indeed roberts, how are you. >> i'm well thank you. >> world-famous author, british historian, journalist, with all this turmoil going on in the world, our country, britaibritain, all throughout the world, i thought this would be a good time to talk about winston churchill. i think our audience has a general understanding about him, what a great man he is,

but i'm not sure we have really a full understanding of the man's character, his history, and why he is considered such a great man. you've written a book, churchill, walking with destiny. this is, you told me the 1010th biography of churchill, yours being the 1010th. why is your book different. >> i was very fortunate that in the last six or seven years there has been an avalanche of new sources that have come out about winston churchill. [inaudible] her majesty the queen allowed me to it be the first biographer to use her father's diaries and he met with churchill every tuesday during the war and was trusted by his prime minister with all of the great secrets of the second world war, the ultra secret, the nuclear secrets, which countries were going to be

invaded, which ministers were going to be. [inaudible] the king wrote everything down in his diary. i been able to use that which no other biographer has before. on top of that cambridge is where his archives are, there have been 41 sets of papers that have been deposited there including the diaries of his children and so on. there's a bit of a possibility to actually get into them mind of the man that way as well. i myself discovered the accounts at the work cabinets, the second world war cabinet so we now know which each and every minister said during the war cabinets which no one has known before, and finally, the diaries of ivan my ski, the soviet ambassador during the second world war were made available over the past five years in moscow. that was exciting to because he saw lots of him just before the outbreak of the war. it's extraordinary avalanche

of new sources that made me decide to want to write this book. >> him and ask you a question that may sound silly. let's do it this way. why should americans care about winston churchill. >> it's not a silly question at all. i think it's an essential question at a time when leadership is such an important aspect in the world today. i think churchill made some important statements that still need to be made, he showed different qualities of leadership that we desperately need. he was somebody with a tremendous sense of foresight. he saw the first world war and the second world war before they broke out and warned the world about what to do. a world that didn't listen to him but he got it right. after the second world war we saw the danger that started in

eastern europe, he too in his speech in missouri was able to delineate that as a great danger. he showed tremendous moral and physical courage but particularly moral courage. he never deviated because of what opinion polls set. he said what he believed and he stuck to it. that is something that i think is not just the 1930s, that's for all time a great leadership quality. he was tremendously eloquent, he was very, very good on his feet of course, but also in his speeches, he could move the hearts of millions and these are the things that all leaders should be able to learn from, and not just military leaders. not just political leaders, business leaders, everybody i think has got something you can learn from winston churchill. >> our president, president

trump has his. [inaudible] in the oval office. they admire him enormously but he had ups and down. >> certainly. probably no single politician who's had more ups and more downs. he was cast down and made mistake after mistake. he believed in learning from his mistakes and was very good at that, but he got women's suffrage wrong, the gold standard wrong, the application crisis wrong, primarily he got the expedition in the first world war in 1915. mark: and what happened there. >> it was a brilliant idea, concept was to try to get the royal navy from the eastern mediterranean to the straits between asia and europe and

through the threats of shelling, basically take the turks out of the whole of the first world war and if it had come off it would've been one of the great strategic genius moves in history of warfare, but in the implementation of it, on the 18th of march 1915, the allies lost six ships and doubled down on the disaster by invading the peninsula to the west of the straight and over the next eight months we lost a hundred 40000 killed and wounded. this was primarily churchill's mistake and he stuck with it and people shouted what about. [inaudible] into the 1930s. it's amazing he recovered from that. it's extraordinary. the only time he briefly considered suicide, you don't

get further down from that but he did come back from it through his extraordinary eloquence. the government didn't want to have him on the opposition so they brought him back into the cabinet in 1917. >> he also, he was quite the worldly man. he went all over the world and served in various battles and witnessed various battles. >> yes, he fought in five campaigns on four continents. he came much closer, he had many close brushes with death that he believed he had a certain destiny and on one occasion when he left the dugouts in the first world war on the front line of the first world war and during the first world war he went into the no man's land but nonetheless, he left the dugout, five minutes

later everybody, there was a direct shell hit on the dugout and everyone inside was decapitated and he said of that extraordinary lucky survival that he felt he could shield, he could hear the sound of the invisible wings beating over him. he very much had the sense of destiny. mark: he was labor. >> then he joined the liberal party and then went back. mark: how do you explain that. >> he had a great line about that. he said anyone can lapse but it takes a certain engineer to relapse. basically he believed in free trade and free markets and the conservative party dumped that idea in 1984 and he stuck with his belief and went to the liberal party which supported free trade and free market but then when the conservatives came back to free trade and

free market later, he went back to the conservative party. it's a real case of the party meetin needing him instead of him needing them. >> it's interesting going back and forth. in america you get one swing. >> actually that's true of british politics, he's just about the only person that has managed to pull that off. >> i think margaret thatcher grew up during a girl during the second world war listening to churchill's great wartime speeches and if you fast-forward 40 years, you see very much the kind of speeches she was making there with huge overturns with the one that winston churchill was given 40 years earlier, but yes there's no other gigantic political figure between churchill and thatcher and none since target

thatcher either. mark: or want to talk about the war effort a little bit later in the program, but one of the things that always troubles me, as an american, is after the war effort this tremendous leader is thrown out of office. how did that happen, why did that happen. >> it was catastrophic for him. he won the war effectively and he then loses a general election defeat, a landslide victory against him and it happened because people wanted more. at the end of the second world war they felt they deserved to have all the goodies. they didn't really look into national healthcare, nationalization of the bank of england and all sorts of welfare state. mark: did he oppose most of those? >> no, he actually came up with some of the ideas himself

30 years before, but the british people didn't think that he was going to be able to deliver them in the same way the labor party were offering to deliver them and it took some time before they worked out that we couldn't actually afford all of the things they were offering and on the day of the election, as the landslide came through, his wife commenting said to churchill, and might be a blessing in the size and he replied, from where i sitting it seems remarkably well disguised. he was brilliant wasn't he, the way he wrote, the way he spoke at a moments notice, just incredible. >> there are about 200 churchill jokes in my book because he just knew exactly when to do the joke, he could do one, i think he'd be superb on twitter because he was able

to, many of his best jokes were hundred 80 characters or fewer. and. [inaudible] there were so many of those kind of joke. >> this is a spectacular book, churchill walking with destiny by andrew roberts. we'll get into so much of this. there's so much more to discuss. don't forget, most week nights you can see me on levintv, go to blaze tv.com/mark to sign up. or give us a call at 844 or give us a call at 844 levint ( ♪ ) hey there! i'm lonnie from lonnie's lumber. if you need lumber wood, lonnie's is better than good. we got oak, cherry, walnut, and more. and we also have the best selection of plywood

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andrew roberts, your subtitle of the book is walking with destiny. what did you mean by that. >> when he became prime minister on the tenth of may 1940, the same day that hitler invaded belgium and holland and luxembourg and set to invade france, churchill said, of his coming prime minister that day, i felt as if i was walking with destiny and all my past life had been

preparation for this hour and this trial. what i've tried to do in the book is investigate that and unpack it and look at the extent to which churchill's previous job as being in charge of the navy or secretary actually did prepare him for his hour and trial in 1940. again and again i come up with this powerful sense that he was driven by a sense of destiny. he believed from the time he was a 16-year-old schoolboy and told his best friend there will be great upheavals and terrible struggles in our live and i shall be called upon to stay in london and save london. mark: he was a great admirer of america, wasn't he. >> he loved america. mark: why is that. >> he was half american. his mother was born in brooklyn, but he also saw america, especially before the

first and second world war as the potential savior of western civilization which, of course it was in both of those wars, and so there was a strategic element as well as an emotional element. he was somebody who believed in the legacy of the english-speaking people for the rest of the world and in the way that we are joined in literacy and culture was something that the rest of the world could benefit from and he believed that when we were together, he coined the phrase special relationship and when that special relationship worked and it was good not just for their country but the whole of the rest of the world to. mark: and there were some, when america was attacked at pearl harbor, who didn't think the americans would be able to fight very well. >> i know, yes. mark: he wasn't one of them. >> no, he told the cabinet this is ridiculous that the

americans are fabulous fighters and you can just look back to the american war of independence, the civil war and the fighting that took place in the first world war ii realize that actually the americans are extremely good warriors and that was proved very quickly of course. mark: what was that his relationship with franklin roosevelt. >> it was fascinating. they liked each other very much. churchill didn't enjoy the cocktails that fdr mixed for him, but other than that they got along. >> what did churchill drink. >> he drink everything but non-american cocktails. he was a huge drinker. will probably get onto that later in the show, but with regard to fdr, they were both aristocrats of their own countr country, they were

politically on the left of course come the new deal and his sense of democracy and they saw the world in terms of having to defeat hitler until they got on, there was a problem by about the fall of 1944 when the interest of the british seem to bifurcate from the americans and at that point went through a rocky patch, but not personally, just simply politics. >> was that the dividing up eventually of europe. >> and the empire. >> he felt that the pressure that the state department was putting on britain in order to basically give back india self-government to india, was something that he is a peerless and someone who believed in the british empire didn't want to happen. mark: obviously he's leading a

nation that couldn't be defeated, britain is being bombed, what was his view of the third right respecting the holocaust that was taking place against the jews? >> he called it the most grisly crime in history of humanity. so of course his stance very much was that he wanted to own the railroad lines taking jews into --dash bombed the railroads taking jews into auschwitz. but he and the officials of the day effectiv prevented that from happening. he was not a dictator. he had to bring over his cabinet and had to bring over the military authorities, and on this he said to anthony eaton his secretary, invoke me if necessary, we must bomb these lines and it never

happened. >> and he regretted it. >> of course, it was one of his great regrets. i go into it in the book. mark: and you're right, our state department wasn't particularly interested. >> there was an operational issue and it was a very long way to go, it was also railroad lines that are notoriously difficult to bomb, notoriously difficult to bomb, but nonetheless new tide power pods one up the cleaning power of liquid. can it one up spaghetti night? it sure can. really? can it one up breakfast in bed? yeah, for sure. thanks, boys. what about that? uhh, yep! it can? yeah, even that! i would very much like to see that. me too. introducing new tide power pods. one up the toughest stains with 50% more cleaning power than liquid detergent. any further questions? uh uh! nope! one up the power of liquid with new tide power pods.

>> live from america's news headquarters. i'm aisha hasnie. president trump is doubling down on his threat to retaliate if iran strikes back following last week's attacks that killed a top iranian general. president trump is questioning why iran can torture and kill americans without the u.s. been able to target iran's cultural sites. also, harsh words for iraq after its government calls for the expulsion of american troops. the president says if iraq makes u.s. troops leave he will levy punishing sanctions on baghdad. al qaeda linked extremists killing one u.s. service member and to american contractors and attack happening at a kilt military base used by u.s. counterterrorism forces in kenya. the terrorists destroyed several u.s. aircraft and vehicles before they were chased away. i'm aisha hasnie, now back to

"life, liberty and levin". if is any act of violence. now back to live in. >> andrew roberts, a lot of the detractors of churchill talk about this problem that he had. did he have a drinking problem. >> he did not have a drinking problem. he did drink an enormous amount, but he had an unconstitutional alcohol. one man said he couldn't of been an alcoholic because no alcoholic could've drink that much. and in a sense, he really mastered, he said drink is. [inaudible] [inaudible] it was quite extraordinary regarding the pressure on him, but no, he was not an alcoholic and neither was he a depressive but people say he

had black dog depression but he himself never used that expression once in his whole life at a time when they used it in the depression of course is a the debilitating illness and he was able to share over 900 meetings of the defense cabinet at all times of day and night. >> the detractors in our country talk about lincoln having deep depression and you're right, you almost can't function if you have this deep depression in here these men were functioning beyond what the average human being could possibly do. >> and i think also, you have to remember of course they did get depressed at times, but not as a result of a chemical imbalance or anything like that, but because terribly depressing things were happening. we lost in 1942, we lost in north africa june 1942 and that means any decision-maker

may have gotten depressed under those circumstances. hitler's secretary christina said the very mention of churchill's name would send hitler off into rants, endless rants about how churchill was an alcoholic and he was an incompetent strategist and all these other things, and if ever they got into a carpet fighting moment it was the mention of churchill's name. >> wasn't really because he was so effective at resisting. >> he's the first major british politician to say what the nazis were really all about and to warn the world. hitler hated them for that. i think churchill was able to

see hitler and the nazis for what they really were. he liked jews, he had grown up with jews all his life and had gone on holidays with them and knew the contribution they had made to western civilization. he had an early warning system when it came to hitler and the nazis. the second thing was that he was a historian and he was able to place the strategic threats posed by hitler in the long continuum of british foreign policy and the other threats we've had since the spanish armada and he had come up close and personal against the sudan and religious fanatical -ism and he could see the same in the nazis in a

way that the other prime ministers simply were unable to do. >> it's a wonderful book, churchill, walking with destiny. what was churchill and britain's interaction during the war with japan? >> very bad. it's one of churchill's failings. and possibly it was not to spot the way in which japan was able, after the day of infamy, to invade british burma and we had this extraordinary powerful base in singapore and we all thought that was going to be able to hold all because it was so strong.

but what didn't work out is that the big guns were pointing to see and the japanese were coming to the jungle from the north and we had very few defenses there and that was largely due to churchill. mark: and italy? >> well he had, he made a wonderful joke about italy. we weren't too worried about the italian fighting in the second world war, and the nazi prime minister threatened churchill in a reception in london when he was german ambassador and said mr. churchill, in the next war, italy will be on our side and he cried, it seems only fair, we had to have them last time. [laughter] so he didn't think too much of them. >> ladies and gentle men, don't forget, most week nights you can watch me on levintv. please join us, sign up and go to blaze tv.com/mark or give

us a call, 844 levintv. we'll be right back.

>> andrew roberts, historian, journalist, excellent author, your book, churchill walking with destiny, you have another book, leadership with those who have made history which kind of built on your churchill book, the qualities of churchill leadership. let's go through some of those, give us some examples of what you would identify as leadership skills. >> there's a phrase that napoleon used where he said one must speak to the soul, it's the only way to electrify the man, and what he was saying is that it's not enough

just to get soldiers together and send them in a particular direction. you have to infuse them with your charisma and your personality, and very often in wartime, people will put up with any number of defeats. if you're able, as a war leader, two prominent ultimate victory, even if it's isn't near, if it can be logically explained why it will happen, then people will put up with terrible. [inaudible] >> that would explain george washington. >> of course. the whole valley forge story is not one of the privations and the cold and the supplies not getting through and lack of ammunition, it's hope. it's the way in which george washington was able to sell the idea of ultimate victory through self leave and hope and of course the attack, all in all, he is one of the great

examples of great war leadership. >> one other skills what a great leader needs. >> interestingly, you would've thought that it's important to be a great. [inaudible] it's very much the case in churchill's case, but not in napoleon's, for example, and stalin, who was one of the most evil men in history, nonetheless was a very effective war leader but he was actually quite useless at rhetoric and poetry and charisma is a very difficult concept for me because hitler, who's always thought of as charismatic, actually when you delve down into it, it was largely because he had them do his fairs and rallies and propaganda. he himself was an unimpressive figure, personally, so i don't think necessarily this

creative charisma is an important aspect. one that is, though, is the idea of foresight. if people think that your leader is looking one step ahead or two or three steps ahead, that is very important. with margaret thatcher it was a large number of these things, but it was also a conviction. >> i knew her very well. she came and had dinner in our house and i used to go around to her place and she appointed me to it take her place on the margaret hatcher archive and so i knew her quite well. with her it was this fabulous sense of conviction that you weren't just doing this, making these great reforms in britain in order to get richer, you are doing it in order to be a better person, and that was tremendously powerful. people will undergo an awful

lot in that sense if they ultimately think that what you're doing is right. mark: i see great leaders in one stamina and energy, they never sleep, they're constantly thinking about things, trying to think ahead. is that true. >> absolutely. margaret thatcher would only speak fo sleep for four hours and churchill carried on until 4:00 a.m. working. hitler was lazy. he's the one person who just doesn't fit in to the overall concept of the busy hard-working leader. george marshall, who i write about in this new book would work 16, 17 hours a day, president eisenhower, not just when he was commander, but

after that as well, he was incredibly hard worker. it's something i think they all do have in common. >> most of the western leaders, did they get good press or bad press. >> he got terrible press for a lot of the time, he had a lot of things, party criticized him, he had confidence in the house of commons during the second world war, he won them but nonetheless they were trying to bring him down. mark: his own party? >> people work criticizing him constantly, like hatcher who was ultimately being brought down after 11 and a half years and basically saving britain from becoming a third rate country in the world, the conservatives brought her down in an act of spectacular

betrayal. >> and churchill, throughout, they were picking at him and nibbling at him. >> constantly undermining him and, even when he would make some of the greatest speeches of his life, never in the field of human conflict, speech, his never surrender speech, the conservatives would go to the house of commons, order a few drinks and try to rip the speeches to shreds, speeches that we now consider to be amongst the greatest in the history of man mankind. mark: and the press was happy to accommodate them. >> luckily in wartime they did have a handle on it and it was considered to be anti- government. nonetheless, throughout his nonetheless, throughout his life he had a terrible time you leave it to me. i'll get your taxes in an ok place. what?

just as soon as my audit's over, this gets my undivided attention. you take a lot of trips to the caymans, phil? pretty great, right? oh phil's legally dead. fell off a boat. going by denis now. celery. long story. what do we got here. oh. not going to want to see this. i don't think this is going to work. just ok is not ok. at&t has america's best network, now with our best plans, at our best prices, starting at $35 a line for 4 lines. new from at&t americans have come to lendingtree.com to shop and compare their loans and credit cards for over 20 years. now with the new lending tree app you can go beyond loan shopping and see your full financial health, including your free credit score, ongoing credit monitoring, your current cash flow and financial future. then it automatically compares your current loans and credit card payments to their network of lenders and shows you where you can cut your monthly bills. download it now to check your financial health and see how much you can save.

churchill, walking with destiny, andrew roberts, brexit has been in the news, i tell you the british parliament has been wrestling itself to the ground over and over again over this. the people voted to get out of the european union and it

seems like the parliament doesn't want to let them out. it seems like the eu doesn't want to let them out. what would churchill's position be. >> that's a very good question. his daughter mary told me never to assume one knows what her pop would've thought about any issue. of course when the referendum took place half a century after his death, although he was very much in favor of the european project when he was leader of the opposition, when he was prime minister during 1951 in 1955, he did nothing to get britain any closer into the multi lateral organizations that led to the european union, and then, he was a great with special relationship which he thought would be damaged if britain got into an economic structure with europe, and he of course also had great regard for the commonwealth and relations

with canada and australia and new new zealand. mark: thatcher? same thing? >> that's easy. she used to rail against the european union controlled by brussels. i remember going to a speech he gave at the house of lords in 1994 and it was completely, no doubt where her vote would've gone if she lived three years longer. mark: given the makeup of politics today in great britain, in the parliament and the parties, do you think we'll ever see the likes of the churchill again? >> golly, one should remember it took a world war for churchill to get to power. he would have never made it to downing street in a time of peace because there were so many detractors, so many

people constantly dragging him down. we mentioned earlier about the press, he was, he never was really given a fair hearing until he became prime minister so on that level, no, but i can't help thinking about who still goes into politics and i'm very worried about this because most people don't go into journalism or they go into writing, but very few of the top class people go into personality class, go into politics nowadays. mark: why is that. >> because it's a horrible job. i think the way politicians are treated, the trolling on twitter and so on which you have to be involved in social media, but nonetheless it's pretty hateful, the way in which the rules, the expenses,

the very low pay, in my country at least, all of these things come together really to create an environment where you don't get the best people going into it. mark: what you make of jeremy corbin and the head of the labour party. >> i think that he is the most left-wing but he's also the most profoundly dangerous and sinister guy. he is wildly anti- israel, very anti- american which he has been all of his life, he's made apologies for hamas and hezbollah who he has called his friends, he wants a massive world taxes, not just for the rich but pretty much for the whole middle classes, and he's been talking about some very dangerous economic policies that would bankrupt my country in two or three

years. fortunately he's down to 16% in the polls when it comes to his popularity. he's a very, very unpleasant figure. only six weeks after the ira attempted, a distant republican group in ireland attempted to blow up margaret thatcher and succeeded in killing seven people in 1984, six weeks later, jeremy corbin invited the ira to the house of commons. that's the kind of person who is in some danger of becoming our next prime minister. our next prime minister. >> we'll be right back. new tide power pods one up the cleaning power of liquid. can it one up spaghetti night? it sure can. really? can it one up breakfast in bed? yeah, for sure. thanks, boys. what about that? uhh, yep! it can?

yeah, even that! i would very much like to see that. me too. introducing new tide power pods. one up the toughest stains with 50% more cleaning power than liquid detergent. any further questions? uh uh! nope! one up the power of liquid with new tide power pods.

uhh, excuse me, is there a problem here? you're in a no parking zone. oh, i... i didn't know. you didn't see the sign? that... that wasn't there when i was here earlier. (whimper) really? you know, in italy, they let you park anywhere. have a good day, sir. with geico, the savings keep on going. just like this sequel. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance. (glass shattering) ra >> andrew roberts, one of the problem in our country is our

youth cannot be taught about our country. do you have that problem in britain. >> hugely. we also have the problem about are you not learning american history. the other day there was a survey, one in six people thought the american rule of independence had been run. [inaudible] but we also have our problems, 20% of british teenager think winston churchill was a fictional character even though they think sherlock's home was a real person. mark: this education, it just seems to be universal.

ringing the alarms today about a country like china quick. >> absolutely and russia as cwell. he can spot these dangers from a long way off and then

finally when it was almost too late he was recognized and proved right. although there is the anti- churchill group the labour party just called churchill villain. this is jeremy corbin's number two. but it doesn't really matter. if you have that kind of dissent to make its problem with the major political party that attacks its history, particularly its strength. the great leaders of its history and what has been done to focus on all the imperfections. this is a fantastic book. churchill walking with destiny.

it's a great honor to finally have met you. take care. see you next time on "life, liberty & levin" steve: breaking tonight, president >> after returning to washington was strong words to expel u.s. troops. the president saying quote, we have an extraordinary expensive airbase that cost billions of dollars to build, long before my time and we are not leaving unless they pay us back for it. if they do ask us to leave, if we don't do it in a family basis we will charge them sanctions like they've never seen before. it will make iranian sanctions looked somewhat tame. i think we can agree classic trump there. next quote. with iraq we spent money and