made field-goal so far in his career. and that's how fox reports this saturday, january 11, 2020. i'm jon scott, thanks for joining us. see you again tomorrow. ♪ ♪. mark: hello america i marked within this is life, liberty, n.d live in. andrew roberts how are you sir. it's a great pleasure i am well thank you. world-famous author, british historian, broadcaster. with all of this total mark going on in this world, our country, britain, all throughout the world, i thought this would be a good time to talk to you about winston churchill. and i think our audience has the general understanding of

churchill and what a wonderful man he was. h but i am not sure we have a really full understanding of the man's character, his history, and why he is considered such a great man. and you have written a book, churchill, walking with destiny. you told me this iss the 1010th biography of churchill. why is your book different? >> i was t very fortunate that in the last six or seven years that there've been an absolute avalanche of new sources that have come out about winston t churchill. there is even a thousand and nine biographies before mine. but that her majesty the queen allowed me to it be the first biographer to use her diaries. and he met every tuesday the second world war was trusted by his prime minister with all of the great secrets of the second world war, the ultimate secrets, the nuclear secrets,

which countries were going to bele invaded, which generals were going to be fired and so on. in the king wrote everything down in his diary. so i've been able to use that and no one has been able to do that before. on top of that the churchill college, cambridge where. his archives are, there have been 41 sets of papers that have been deposited there. and including the diaries of his children and sois on. so there's been a possibility to get into the mind of the man that way as well. i, myself discovered the fate of them accounts at the war cabinets, the second world war cabinet. so now we know what each individual minister said during the war cabinets, which no one has known before. and finally the diaries of ivan during the second world war, have been made available in the last five years in moscow. and that was fascinating too. you saw a lot of church hell with the period of the knobby

there's an avalanche of new sources it made want to write this book. mark: i'm can ask your question that may seem silly. let's do it this > way. why should americans care about winston churchill? >> i don't think it's a silly question at all it is an absolute essential question at a time when leadership is a such an important aspect in the world today. i think that churchill, annunciated so many of the most important tennant statements that still need to be made. i think he showed different qualities of leadership that we desperately need. he was someone with a tremendous sense of fourth site. he spoke during the first world war and the second world war and warns the world about what to do. they didn't listen to them but he did get that right.e but then after the second world war we saw the dangers in eastern europe and he too

gave this curtain speech and was able to delineate that is a great danger. then he showed tremendous moral courage, moral and physical courage and particularly moral courage. he never deviated from a poll said, he went out and said what he believed and he stuck to it. and i think that is something that is not just for the 1930s, that is for all time, a great leadership quality. he was very, very good on his feet of course, but also in his set speeches. he could move the hearts of millions. these are things that all leaders should be able to learn from, i think. and not just military leaders, i think it's all the way across the board. not just political leaders but business leaders and everybody have got something they can

learn from churchill. our president, president trump has his bust in the oval office. the prime minister of israel has his bus in his office. they admired churchill in norman sleep. but churchill had ups and downs during his career didn't he? >> certainly yes. there's probably no single politician who's had more ups and more downs. he was cast down and with his own blunders. he made mistake after mistake. he talked to his wife in said i made nothing if i've not made mistakes. he believed from learning from his mistakes and he was very good at that. he got suffrage wrongly got the gold standard wrong, he got the application crisis wrong. primarily he got the expedition in the first world war in 15. mark: what happened there? >> was a brilliant idea the concept was to get the royal navy from the eastern mediterranean through the

straits between asia and europe. anchor at off constantinople and through the threat of shelling, basically take the turks outs of the holes of the first world war. and if it would've come off, it would've been one of the great strategic genius moves in the history of warfare. but during the implementation of it, on the 18th of march 1915, the allies lost six ships. then they double down on the disaster by invading the peninsula to the west of the straits and then the next eight months we left a hundred and 48000 killed and wounded. this was not fairly but it was primarily church hills mistake. and churchill stuck with it. people shouted what about the dog and that went into the 1930s. it's. mark: it's amazing he recovered from that is in it? >> it's the only time he

considered committing suicide. and as i mention you don't get further down than that. but he didn't come back from it, and it lasted through his extraordinary eloquence that the government did not want to have him on the opposition benches so they brought him back into the cabinet in 1917. mark: he also, individually, he was quite the workingman. he went all over the world, he served in various battles of witness battles. >> yes he fought in five campaigns on four continents. he came much closer, he had so many brushes with death that he believed he had a certain destiny as a driving sense of personal destiny. and on one occasion when he left the dugouts in the first world war on the front line of the front first world war. he went into the no man's land 30 times. which he did not need to as a colonel, but nonetheless he

left the dugout, five minutes later, everybody -- there is a direct shell hit on the dugout o and everybody was decapitated. and he said of that extraordinary lucky survival, that he felt that he could feel -- he could hear the invisible wings beating over him. he had a sense of destiny. mark: he was tory then liberal. >> yet he was a liberal and back to the tory. he hadad a great line about that. he said anybody can laugh but it takes a certain engineer to be wrapped. basically it's because he believed in free trade and free markets. and the conservative party dumped that in 1984. and he stuck with his belief, and went into the liberal party which supported free trade and free markets. but when the conservatives

came back to free trade in free markets 20 years later, he went back to the conservative party. so throw case of the party leaving him then him leaving the party. mark: that's interesting to come back and forth like that because an american you get a one swing? >> yes, but that's british politics. he's about the only person is managed to pull thats off. mark: there's never been anyone like him maybe thatcher is the closest example? >> i think of margaret thatcher admired himgr hugely. she will grow up as a girl during the second world war and the family sat around the radio in her home listening to churchill's great wartime speeches. and if you fast-forward 40 years to the war you will see very much the kind of speeches she was making there have huge overtones with the ones that winston churchill was giving 40 years earlier. i guess there is no other gigantic figure between

winston churchill and margaret thatcher. and none since margaret thatcher either. mark: i want to talk about the war effort a little bit later in the program. but one of the things that always troubles me, as an american, is after the war effort, this tremendous leader is thrown out of office. so how did that happen? why did that happen? >> yes it was catastrophic for him. he had won the war effectively, and then he loses a calling, general election defeats. a landslide victory against him. and it happens because people wanted more. at the end of the second world war they felt they deserved to have all of the goodies. they really didn't look into national healthcare, nationalization of the bank of england's, and all sorts of welfare states. >> did he oppose most of those?

>> he actually came up with some of the ideas himself, 30 years before. but he, the british people didn't think he was going to be able to deliver them the same way the labor party were offering to deliver them. and they voted for him and it took some time before they worked out that we could have could not actually afford all of the things the socialists were offering. and on the day of the election as the landslide came through, his wife clement teen said to churchill, well it might be a blessing in disguise. and churchill replied from where i am sitting it seems quite well disguised. [laughter] mark: he was a brilliant and the way he wrote, though he spoke, the little clips in a moments notice, it was just incredible. >> there are about 200 churchill jokes and my book because he just knew exactly when to slip in a joke. and i think by the way he

would be apsley superb on twitter. because he was able, many of his best jokes could fit into 280un characters or fewer. it's a marvelous when the labor would shout across the house of commons and say what's, and then churchill would say think the honorable member for telling me what was in his mind.oo [laughter] mark: this is a spectacular book churchill walking with destiny we are going to get into more of this, there is so much to discuss about churchill and your outstanding book. but don't forget ladies and gentlemen most week nights you see me unleavened tv. go to blaze tv.com/mark to sign up or give us a call at 8444 levintv, 844 levintv. we'll be right back. and the world's best, and possibly only, schmelier. philadelphia. schmear perfection.

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mark: andrew roberts or subtitle of the book walking with destiny. what did you mean by that? >> when he became prime minister on the tenth of may, 1940, the same day that adelphia dirt hitler released and also invaded france. churchill said of his becoming prime minister that day, i felt as if i were walking with

destiny, and that all of my past life been a preparation for this hour and for this trial. and so what i t try to do in the book is to investigate that. to unpack it and look at the extent to which churchill's previous jobs, being charged in the royal navy being secretary or chancellor, actually did prepare him for this hour and trial of 1940. and again and again i come up with this powerful sense that he was driven by a sense of destiny. he believed, from the age when he was a 16-year-old schoolboy, he told his best friend there will be great upheaval and terrible struggles in our lives. and i shall be called upon to save england and save london. mark: he was a great admirer of america was any? and why was that? >> he loved america. he was half american himself.rk his mother was born in brooklyn and he was very conscious of that side of things. but he also saw america,

especially before the first world war and the second world war, as the potential savior of western civilization. of course it was in both of those wars. and so there was a strategic element as well as an emotional element. when somebody believed in the legacy of being speaking people for the rest of the world. and the way in which our joint literature and culture, values, and even democracy and so on was something the rest of the world could benefit from. and he believe that when wind crked together he coined the phrase special relationships w in fact because when that special relationship works, it was good not just for both gcountries but for the whole rest of the world two. mark: there were someone america was attacked at pearl harbor and declaration of war was were back and forth, did not think americans would baby over to fightht very well. he wasn't one of them. >> i know, he was the purse

that told the cabinet this is ridiculous that actually thean americans are fabulous fighters and then you have to look back and see that he said the american war of independence, the civil war, and the fighting that took place the first world war ii realize that actually the americans are extremely good warriors. rrand that was proved very, very quickly of course. operation torch in north africa. mark: what was his relationship with franklin roosevelt? >> a fascinating one. they liked each other personally very much. churchill didn't enjoy the cocktails that fdr mixed for him, but other than that they got on well. he drank everything but not american cocktails. no, he was a huge, will probably get onto that later in the show but in regard to fdr, they were very good

aristocrats they were on the left of course, his churchill's sense of tory democracy, and they saw the world in terms of having to defeat hitler. and say they got on, there was a problem in the fall of 44 when the interests of the british empire was going away from the american republic and that point the relationship went through a rocky patch. but not personally, just a few politics. mark: was that really the dividing up eventually of europe? >> and the empire. he felt the pressure the state department was putting on britain in order to basically give back india. giving self-government to india. and that was something as he as an imperialist he believed in the british empire.

he did not want it to happen. mark: obviously he's leading a nation that could've been defeated, britain is being bombed, what was his view of the third reich respective to the holocaust. what was taking place against the jews? >> he called it the most grisly crime in the history of humanity. so course his stance was very much wanting to bomb the rail way lines, but i am afraid the british foreign office, and also the united states officials of the day, effectively prevented that from happening. it was something that churchill always regretted. he was not a dictator he had to bring over his cabinets and the military authorities, so this he said invoke me if necessary, we must bomb these lines. and it neverny happened.

mark: and he regretted it? >> of course it's one of his great regrets. i go into it in some detail in the book. mark: you are right are state department was not particularly interested. >> there was an operational issue, it was a very long way to go to fly over. and also railway lines were notoriously difficult to bomb. but none the less and rest respect it was. mark: we'll be right back. ♪nd ♪ have more vitamins and less saturated fat? only eggland's best. better taste, better nutrition, better eggs. and your mother told me all her life that i should fix it. and now it reminds me of her. i'm just glad i never fixed it.

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make every sandwich count. live for america's news headquarters i'm jon scott. iran's admission that it mistakenly shot down a ukrainian jetliner, sparking demonstrations in the streets of tehran. those protesters calling for accountability after the regime deny the responsibility for days. the tragedy unfolded wednesday, just hours after i run launch retail trade airstrikes over the u.s. killing of its top general. president trump tweeting his support for the iranian protesters saying the u.s. is inspired by their courage. the pentagon says a roadside bomb has killed two u.s. service members in afghanistan and left two others wounded. the taliban claims once ability. it happened in this southern providence their withholding the names of the victims until

families argenta five. the u.s. currently has about 13000 troops in afghanistan. i am jon scott, now back to life, liberty, and living.g. ♪ ♪. mark: andrew roberts a lot of the detractors of churchill, talk about this drinking problem that he had. did he have a drinking problem? >> he did not have a drinking problem. he did drink in her norma's amounts but he hadn't unconstitutional for alcohol. one of his friends said that winston churchill could not have been an alcoholic because no alcoholic could've drunk that much. [laughter] and in the sense that is right. he mastered, he always said that drink is my servant and never my master.na he was only drunk on one occasion and that was to enter 49 days long. and that was quite extraordinary considering the pressures on him. but no, he was not an

alcoholic. lots of people say that he had black dog depression. but he himself only use that expression once in his whole life at a time when the matrons used it to explain their ill tempered for children. but the impression of course is a debilitating and he was able to channel the 900 meetings of the war cabinet during the second world war. mark: the lincoln detractors in our country talk about lincoln having a deep depression. and you are right, you almost can't function if you have this deep depression and hear these men were functioning really beyond what the average human being could possibly do. and i think possibly youum have to remember that they did get depressed at times. but not as a result of chemical imbalance or anything like that. because because terribly depressing things wereec happening. we lost singapore, we left to brooke in 1942 and at those moments churchill got

depressed. but any sense decision-maker would get depressed under the circumstances. mark: what did hitler think of churchill? >> hitler's secretary said that the very mention of churchill's name away to send hitler off into rants, endless rants about how churchill was an alcoholic and he was. [inaudible] jews and he was an incompetent strategist in this sort of thing. so if ever the fear got into the carpet biting moments, it was the mention of churchill's name. mark: wasn't really because because churchill was so effective at resisting? >> he was the first major british politician to spot hitler and the nazis for what they were. and to warn the world, so hitler hated him for that. and i think it's because of

these reasons that churchill was able to see hitler and the nazis for what they really hewere. the first he like to jews, he grew up with jews, all of his life had been on holiday with jews, and knew the contribution they made to western civilization. so he had an early warning system when it came to hitler and the nazis that was not about safe d and the british politics. many in the upper politics were anti-semitic. the secondas thing was he was a historian. and he was able to place the strategic threats posed by hitler in the long continuum of the threats since the spanish armada. in the last thing was he had come personal with fanaticism in his life. the islamic fundamentalist, but he could see the same

trends in the nazis in a way that the other prime ministers did not. they were simply unable to do. mark: it is a wonderful book, "churchill: walking with destin. andrew robert, what was churchill and britain's interaction during the war with japan? >> very bad. it's one of churchill's failings. it's one of his blunders frankly. and possibly the worst one he made in the second world war was not to spot the way in which japan was able after the day of infamy to invade malay or in particular. british malay or an british. and we have this extraordinary label base in singapore on the southern tip. we all thought that was going a holdout because it was so strong. will it did not work out

because the big guns were pointing out to sea, but the japanese were coming throughghpo the jungle to the north from the landwarder side. we had very few defenses there. and that was largely down to churchill. mark: and italy? >> well. [laughter] he had -- he made a wonderful joke about italy. they were not very worried about italy in the second world war. and they heard from the he was threatened and said mr. churchill and the next war, italy will be on the side of the third reich. churchill replied it seems only fair, we had to have them last time. [laughter] mark: so he did not think too much of them. ladies and gentlemen don't forget most week nights you can watch my levintv. please join us, sign up got

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mark: andrew roberts, broadcaster journalist, historian, excellent author, your book churchill, walking with this destiny, you had another book a leadership and central lessons from those who made history, which kinda builds on your churchill book. the qualities of those leaderships. let's go through some of those. give us some examples of what you would identify as leadership skills.na >> there's a phrase that napoleon used where het said when you speak to the soul, it's the only way to electrify the man. and what he is saying really not just enough to get

soldiers together and send them in a particular direction. you have to infuse them with your charisma, with your personality. and they often, though in wartime people will put up with any number of defeats, if you are able as a war leader, toto promise ultimate victory, even if it doesn't seem to be near, if it can be logically explained, why it's going to happen, then people will put up with terrible, terrible issues. mark: that would explain george washington would not? >> absolutely the whole supplies not getting through, lack of ammunition and so on, it is a hope it was the way which george washington was able to sell the idea of ultimately through self belief and hope and of course the attack on trenton. all in all, he is one of the

great examples, of great war leadership. mark: what other skills where the great leader need? >> interestingly you would've thought it would be important to be a great orator. but not always. it's was not the case it was the case in church hill's case but not an napoleons. and stalin, he was one of the most evil men in history, nonetheless was a very effective war leader. but not because he was knowledgeable he was quite useless at rhetoric. charisma is a very difficult concept for me, because hitler who was always thought of his charismatic, actually when you delve down into it, it was largely because he had films and rallies and other people to be his propaganda. he himself was unimpressive.

and so i don't think this artificially created charisma is important aspects. one that is though, is the idea of foresight. if people think that your leader is looking one stepp ahead, or two or three steps ahead, that is very important. margaret thatcher, it was a large number of these things. but it was also a conviction. mark: your new margaret thatcher? >> i did know margaret thatcher. they would come to our house and we would go to her place and so she appointed me to it take her place on the margaret thatcher archive trust. so i knew her quite well. but with her, it was this fabulous sense of moral w conviction that you weren't just doing this, making these great reforms in great britain in order to get richer. you are doing it in order to be a better person.

and that was tremendously powerful. people would undergo a lot of privation in that sense as well. if they ultimately think what you are doing his rights. mark: nic the great readers have enormous stamina and energy, they never sleep they are constantly thinking about things. trying to think ahead. >> that is absolutely true. margaret thatcher would only sleep for four hours at night. winston churchill he would have a nap in the afternoon, carried on till two or 3:00 o'clock in the morning working. after his one hour nap he believed that effectively gave him two days. hitler was lazy, he is the one person that actually, he just does not fit into the overall orncept of busy and hard-working leaders. george marshall who i'll write about in this new book, would work 16 to 17 hours a day, president eisenhower, not just when he was in command but

after that point as well. he was incredibly hard worker. it's something that i think they all excepts hitler had in common. mark: did most of the western leaders get good press or bad press? >> churchill got terrible press for a lot of the time. this party criticized him. he had a vote of confidence during the second world war, he won them but nonetheless they were held to try to bring him down. and the press. >> his own party would criticize him constantly behind. mark: like thatcher? >> like thatcher he was ultimately brought down after, after being prime minister for 11 and half years basically saving britain from becoming a third rate country in the world. the conservatives, their own

party brought her down and an active spectacular betrayal. mark: and churchill throughout? they were picking at him and nibbling at him? >> constantly undermining him and even when he would make some of the greatest speeches of his life, and never in the field of human conflict speech, his never surrender speech that conceptions would go to the bar the house of commons, order a few drinks and try to rip the speeches to shred. speakers that we now consider to be amongst the greatest orator tree in the face of mankind. mark: and the press was more than happy to accommodate them? >> lucky in wartime they did have a handle on the press and it was considered to be unpatriotic to be too antigovernment. even though some newspapers were specially those on the left were. but nonetheless, throughout his life, he had a terrible time with that.

mark: we'll be right back. ♪ ♪

mark: "churchill: walking with destin, andrew roberts has been in the news. the british parliament has been wrestling itself to the ground over and over over this.

the people voted to get out of the european union, and it seems like the parliament doesn't want to letet them out. it seems like that you doesn't want to let them out. what would churchill's position be, would you think? >> that is a question and his daughter mary told me to it assum never assume about ebony issue. course the referendum took place half a century after his death. and although he was very much in favor of the european project when he was in the opposition, when he was in the prime minister's postwar, he did nothing to get britain any closer to get to the multilateral organizations that led to the european union. and then he was a great leader in a special relationship as we mentioned earlier. and he thought that would be damaged if britain got into an economic structure with europe. and of course he also had a

great regard for the commonwealth, the british commonwealth and the relations with canada, australia, new zealand. so i believe he was a believer and would not have gotten to the union in the first place. mark: thatcher same thing? >> that's an easy one, she used to rail against the european union and controlled by brussels. i remember going to his speech she gave at the house of lords in 1994 and it was completely, it was apsley no doubt where her vote would h have gone if she had lived three years longer. mark: given the makeup of parliament in britain today, you think we will ever see the likes of churchill again? >> you will have to remember of course that it took a world war for churchill to get to power. he would never have made it to number ten downing street in a time of peace.

because there were so many detractors and people consulate dragging him down. we mentioned earlier about the press. he was never really given a fully fair hearing before he came prime minister. so on that level, no. but i can't help thinking that people still go into politics and i'm very worried about this in my country. because most good people don't. they go into writing or banking or something. very few at the top class people go into, and impersonality class of course. go into politics nowadays. and so that is because it's a horrible job. i think it's the way politicians are treated, the trolling on twitter and soo on, that you have to be involved in the social many of course, but nonetheless it's very hateful. the way in which the rules and

the expenses, the very low pay and my country at least. all of these things come together really to create an environment where you don't get the best people going into it. mark: what you make of jeremy corbin in the head of the labour party? >> i think that he is the most -- the most left wing, but the most profoundly dangerous and sinister figure. he is an anti- set of mind, he was worldly anti- israel issue to expect from that period. anti- american has been all of his life. he has made apologies to has belonged who's called his friends, he once abolished and my sick city wants to come out of nato. he wants massive wealth taxes, not just for the rich but pretty much the whole middle classes. and he's been talking about some very dangerous economic

policies that would bankrupt my country into her three years.s. fortunately, he found 16 cents in the polls when it comes to his popularity. he iser a very, very unpleasant figure. and only six weeks after the ira attempts for the district publican group in ireland attempted to blow up margaretth thatcher, and did actually succeed in killing seven people. that was in 1984 and six weeks later jeremy corbin invited the ira to the house of commons.he that is the kind of person who is in some danger of becoming our next prime minister. mark: unbelievable, we'll be right back. doesn't love you back, stay smooth and fight heartburn fast with tums smoothies.

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little things can be a big deal. psoriasis, that's why there's otezla. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. otezla is associated with... ...an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. tell your doctor about your medicines and if you're pregnant or planning to be. otezla. show more of you. [♪] mark rsh andrew roberts. one of the problems in our country is people do not know

our history. is that a problem in britain? >> we have a problem our youth not learning history. onee in six people thought the american whatever independence had been won by denzel washington. british teenagers, one in 10 think winston churchill was a fictional character. they see for ideological reasons of their own. the idea no one is better than anybody else. mark: was there one thing or two things that surprised you in all

this research you did for your book? >> there was a huge number. but when i was reading king george vi's diaries. it became clear churchill was frustrated with the slow pace at which the americans got into the second world war. he saw the second world war as a great struggle between good and evil, the forces of civilization, democracy on one side. and he couldn't understand why the roosevelt administration was not moving faster. mark: do you think he would be ringing alarms about a country like china? >> and russia as well today. he was able to spot dangers from a long way after.

hehe started making warnings but nobody listened to him for 10 years. when it was almost too late he was proved right. mark: and you history gives him credit for it. >> finally yes. but there is an anti-churchill thing in the labour party. jeremy corbyn. it doesn't matter. if you have got that kind of sense you will never see anybody treated right. >> when you have a major political party that attacks its history. particularly its strength. that is the great leaders of its history. the great things it has done in its history. this is a fantastic book.

churchill walking with destiny. it's a great honor to have finally met you. see you next time on "life, liberty & levin." [♪] jesse: welcome to. "watters' world." i'm jesse watters. the left lost its mind. i have been on my honeymoon in mexico. i didn't watch tv for 10 days. i saw some cnn headlines at the airport and checked twitter once a day and got the same dose of news that everyone else. only three things broke through. i didn't get fox news in mexico. i didn't dig too deep on line. i saw the iran news, 100% of