shout out to him. we are going to do is impart each night. full family. the whole realities, center. >> sandra: into a prehappy happy birthday to patrick. have a great evening. thanks for joining us, everybody. "outnumbered" starts now. >> harris: we begin with this fox news alert. world leaders are reacting with alarm after president trump announced a halt to the sizable funding the united states sends to the world health organization pay the president is arguing the global health agency mismanaged response t to the coronavirus pandemic. he says they must be held accountable. >> the world depends on the w.h.o. to work with countries to ensure that accurate information about international threats is shared in a timely matter. if it's not, to independently tell the world the truth about what is happening. the w.h.o. failed in this basic duty and must be held

accountable. >> harris: the head of the w.h.o. has responded to the announcement. that happened just moments ago. watch. >> we regret the decision of the president of the united states to order a hold in funding to the world health organization. it does not discriminate between nationalities, ethnicities, or ideologies. neither do we. when we are divided, the virus exploits the cracks between us. >> harris: you're watching "outnumbered." i'm harris faulkner. here today, melissa francis. katie pavlich, town hall editor and fox news contributor. marie harf, executive director of the serve america pac and fox news contributor, as well. it joining us today in the center box, as you like to say, dr. marc siegel. physician, associate process or at the nyu langone medical

center, and also part of our fox news family here is a contributor. he is "outnumbered," as we say. dr. siegel, i will start with you, and what we know to be the world leaning on the united states at certain times. not only with our dollars, we lead. what do you think about defunding, whether it's temporary or longer-term than that, the w.h.o.? what impact do you think that has globally? >> dr. siegel: it's a very bold move, and i think it's getting a lot of attention. keep in mind, here are some of the world health organization get 16% of its funding from the united states. i think what president trump is referring to is a disgrace that went on where, in late january, whenever this virus really started emerging from china -- we don't now -- at first they were saying it wasn't transmissible human to human. then they were saying it's a regional problem only. back at the end of january, i was saying it sounds like a pandemic. 1.5 billion people are living in china. the question is, how did the

w.h.o. preside over a situation where this virus was escaping to europe, than to the east coast of the united states, under their watch, without them calling it a pandemic? with them saying, "let's handle it regionally while we watch? they didn't let the cdc in a there. china didn't let the centers for disease control in, been digging come and will double times per that's not the w.h.o., but they have a lot of influence over china and they were clearly a lot of political motives going on here. >> harris: you mentioned that 16% coming from the united states. the united states has been the organization's largest funder since it was founded in 1948. look at the dollar sign, contributing more than $500 million per year. nearly ten times the amount which china contributes. those are new numbers for the fox news brain room research. i find that, melissa, to be an

even bigger number than we knew. we've been talking about this, but that is a huge, huge amount. >> melissa: especially because he put that in context, that they appear to be, with their actions, defending china at the expense of the rest of the world. their mission is supposed to be the trustworthy leader in global health. in fact, they ignored signs that it was coming out of china. they said china had been transparent when they had not. i'll give you some other numbers, too. when we talk about this funding, that we shouldn't be defunding this organization at a time where they are strapped for money and doing important things, if you look at the most recent budget back in 2018 they spent $200 million in their travel budget. a lot of that was five-star hotels and business class travel. at the same time, they've spent about $71 million, less than half of that, about a third of that, on fighting aids and hepatitis around the world.

they haven't been terrific stores of money. of the same time, i don't think it's dramatic to say that, in tn safeguarding health and lives around the world, they cost lives around the world. i think defunding them now, or at least saying we are taking 60-90 days to investigate, raises the flag that they very much fell down on their stated mission and their job at this time. and it caused dom at cost lives around the world. somebody needs to safeguard the world's health, and to be the arbiter of what's going on. they did not do that here. they either need to correct their mistakes or we need a different organization to do it. because that rule must be filled >> harris: you know, katie, just in terms of the role melissa is talking about with the w.h.o., and all of the details that even per hour u.s. intelligence we can start to take off now about what we were told versus what we knew, so on and so forth, is it time for

the w.h.o. director than to acknowledge some of the essential in the gaps? we are still missing origin-level information about the coronavirus. as we try to build toward a vaccine, even dr. siegel has said it. you are going to need some of that info. >> katie: right. so, president trump is giving the world health organization an opportunity to prove that they are worth the amount of money we are sending them. that they doing their job. usually, harris, when you screw up this badly, you lose your job. the argument from all these people is, "you can't cut or freeze funding in the middle of a pandemic." well, one of the top jobs of the world health organization is to prevent a pandemic. and here we are. as far as what dr. tedros said, a defense, they said they haven't discriminated against any nationality or country when it comes to handling this. that's not true. we have documentation to prove the opposite. we've had emails from taiwan to

the world health organization, warning about this disease coming out of china, saying it was human to human transmission at the end of december. two weeks after that the w.h.o., on behalf of china, was still saying it wasn't human to human transmissible. they do discriminate. they've done a lot of criticism of president trump and the united states over the handling of this, specifically the ban on travel to and from china. i haven't heard the w.h.o. do a lot of criticizing of china, who is responsible for this. one more thing on leadership, here. dr. tedros, when he was running for this position as the director general in 2017, his background came up as the health minister of ethiopia where he covered up a number of epidemics in that country that ended up spreading to other countries around them. so there is certainly time for review here. the w.h.o. continues to tout chinese communist talking points, which have not only killed thousands of people around the world, but has

completely economically devastated millions around the world. for how long? we don't know. >> harris: you know, i remember at the very beginning of this the reporting, marie harf, was at the w.h.o. was finally allowed on the ground. our people never allowed in china. i know taiwan very early on was able to get in for its own fighting purposes in terms of covid-19 going there. even their relationship was strained with china, they could only go where the chinese would show them. where the chinese government would show them. i'm wondering, at this point, just in kind of a bigger picture, what effect this relationship right now, this looking in deeper with the united states versus the w.h.o., what effect that has globally but also on china. which has not been a good disseminate are of solid information in this journey so far. >> marie: harris, for better or for worse, we need the w.h.o. and china to have a good relationship.

the w.h.o. should not propagate chinese government talking points or propaganda. i agree with katie on that. as you mentioned, they -- the chinese would let the cdc end, and they let in the w.h.o. we need the w.h.o. to figure out a way to work with china to get more of that information. certainly they have not been perfect. it's one of those that would live forever. it's probably one of the most responsible. but the way to make international institutions better is not to pull away from them. it's to play a more active role. not necessarily with more money, but to keep funding them and work with him to make the better. whatever they did or didn't do right over the past months, right now they are the world health organization helping guide countries around the world and how they are dealing with it going forward. we have to look back and focus on the critical work they are doing and still have to do in the coming months.

we can't let that work be put on hold because of this effort to look back. >> harris: it's interesting, what you say, marie. i want to go back to dr. siegel on this. we are going to depend somewhat on the w.h.o. going forward. can we depend on the w.h.o., we now they have said things like, "if you pull the funding --" i'm paraphrasing the director, but the spirit is right with the facts -- "you will have death on your hands come united states." >> dr. siegel: i don't think we can depend on them at all. i think they went from under reacting once the spotlight was on them they overreacted. did you know that their assistance director in charge of communicable diseases actually was a chinese public health official for 30 years? that is to emphasize katie's point. i think we have to take a very close look at them as a political arm. when it comes to medical information, by the way, that is a layer down. i want to send a quick shout out here to the people on the ground that are doing the work, putting

together their website, information on diseases. that's a totally different issue. they are actually worth it. when it comes to how they act as a political arm or there information, it's atrocious i also agree they cost thousands of lines. >> harris: doctor, i'm going to ask the team to put this up there. it's from microsoft cofounder bill gates, whose family foundation is th donor to the w.h.o. after united states. he's what he tweeted. "halting funding for the world health organization during a world health crisis is as dangerous as it sounds. their work is slowing the spread of covid-19. if that work is stopped, no other organization can replace them. the world needs w.h.o. now more than ever." so, what you are saying is if the people on the ground during the very work bill gates is talking about their -- there is a separate arm, or maybe just an above layer at w.h.o. that is

that more political layer. you would know this, studying infectious disease. you have to know who's going to fight it outside this country. as we seen with covid-19, we are all interconnected. >> dr. siegel: this is a warning from the president. right now we have a national emergency going on in the united states, with $2.2 trillion being thrown at it. every health official in the country is on it. i don't think the world health organization is the issue right now. i don't think we need their help now the way we need it in the future, the next time or looking forward, so we have more worldwide cooperation. i'm not worried about pulling the funding now, impacting our treatment here on the ground. i think the warning is deserved. >> harris: dr. siegel high everybody, sit tight. president trump suggesting we may be less than 24 hours away from getting details on a plan to reopen the economy. how soon could some areas of the

nation returning to work? will get into it. ♪ >> plans to reopen the country are close to being finalized. and we will soon be sharing details and new guidelines with everybody. ♪ ws for veterans with va loans. that's me. by using your va streamline refi benefit, one call to newday usa can save you $2,000 a year. that's me. there's no income verification, no appraisal, and no out of pocket costs. that's me. put your va home loan benefits to good use. call my team at newday usa. but one thing hasn't: breakfast. and, if that feels like a little bit of comfort, it's thanks to... the farmers, the line workers and truckers, the grocery stockers and cashiers, and the food bank workers,

because right now breakfast as usual is more essential than ever. to everyone around the world working so hard to bring breakfast to the table, thank you. did you know liberty mutual customizes your car insurance to everyone around the world workita-da!hard so you only pay for what you need? given my unique lifestyle, that'd be perfect! let me grab a pen and some paper.

know what? i'm gonna switch now. just need my desk... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

♪ >> melissa: new reaction as president trump says he is moving closer to a plan to reopen certain parts of the u.s. economy, with some areas possibly ready to go before may 1st. >> i will be speaking to all 50 governors very shortly, and i will then be authorizing each

individual governor of each individual state to implement a reopening and a very powerful reopening plan of their state at a time and in a manner as is most appropriate. >> melissa: the announcement comes as the president insists he has total authority to supersede governors on when and how to reopen the u.s. economy. dr. siegel, let me start with you. when you look at -- obviously not everybody's going to be reopening at the same time. what are the factors, from a health perspective, you would be looking at? are a more likely to reopen in a place like -- i don't know, new york? were so many people have had it, that maybe there is more immunity built up? in other words, it's kind of sort through. or in one of the places that hasn't been hit as hard? does that kind of antibody -- if you have it on a large scale,

how does that figure in? >> dr. siegel: that's a really good way to phrase that, melissa. that's exactly what i'm thinking. dr. fauci is coming back saying that without the testing and tracing the president is premature to say this. let me tell you how you put both positions together. you do the testing and tracing, and you figure out on a community wide basis by checking for antibodies who really has this. so you can know how many people are in the area. we don't want to get into a position where we open up an area and then find out it was spreading to that area. to your other point, if we can be convinced that new york, for example, is really getting over this, we can say, "let's slowly reopen new york." in order to do that -- again, i've been begging this many times on the air -- we need to have the testing, the rapid testing. the antibody testing to see who's been exposed to this. because we believe up to 15% of the time this is spread asymptomatic. we know the number of hospitalizations is stabilizing.

we think the number of cases, the new cases, is decreasing. that we are definitely flattening the curve. but i would really like to have more testing to be able to prove that. the new areas, we can see which areas are opening up. like florida, like new orleans, like in san francisco. those areas are definitely areas we have to see as the new hot spots and not reopen them as quickly. but i like the president's idea of looking at this regionally instead of one big global shutdown -- or, the united states-based shutdown that stifles the economy. >> melissa: dr. siegel, what is your take on where we are on that testing? we keep hearing, "it's here, it's coming, we have antibody test." we hear about the rutgers here in the new york area. yesterday we heard at the press conference that they are having different companies working on saliva tests, this, that, and the other. i feel like we don't actually see it in a big way. what are you seeing in terms of the testing right now?

>> dr. siegel: there's two different tests. one is the one that looks to see if you are infected. that's the one where you put the swab up your nose. or, as you just said, they have the saliva test. that is still not rampant around the country. the test which can give you the result in 15 minutes, we are literally only doing about 50,000 tests a day. that is not near enough. that's called the point-of-care testing. "are you infected?" the test we are talking about in terms of community spread is an antibody test. the problem with the antibody test is there are 90 different companies and labs that are telling the fda, "we've got it, we've got it," with the fda has to figure out which of those are accurate and which aren't. we don't want ones that have false information. that say you are positive when you're not, or say you're negative when you're not. so they have to look through this carefully. but i want this speeded up. i want there to be four or five tests out there. the universities all have them, by the way. the major medical centers all have them already. we need a couple of standardized

tests across the country to see who had it and who's over it. even if they are not immune, we should be able to tell who is on the road to immunity. >> melissa: katie, the thing that worries me and upsets me is this idea that when we talk about the economic impact of this, that is a huge threat also to public health. when you have people who are out of work for a very long time, who can't see their families, who art -- their house and could be disappearing because they can't pay for it. also, the mental health. people whose lives are ruined by the business is being destroyed. this is also a public health threat. what are your thoughts? >> katie: obsolete. of course, as you know, being an economics expert, there's a domino effect of all of those things. the balance that the health issue an economic issue have in common is the race against time. when it comes to the health issue, we are trying to find as many things as possible to mitigate the disease as quickly as possible. with the economy, the longer you

wait to "reopen" it, the more people say, "look, the government is picking and choosing winners and losers by saying he was essential and who is not." at some point people are going to stand up and say, "it's essential that i go to work. you've trusted me for the last however many days to follow the guidelines. i've done that, and i need to give me some additional guidelines. whether it's wearing a mask, washing my hands, going forward into the workplace. because it's essential that i be able to take care of myself and my family." there is a timeline here. unfortunately, it's very difficult to tell when the right time is for both of these issues to be addressed properly. >> melissa: speaking about, some michigan residents right now holding an in-vehicle protest against the governor's expanded stay-at-home order, banning visits to relatives and friends, among other controversial rules. a live report with reaction, just ahead. use a good musical ♪

♪ in nearly 100 years serving the military community, we've seen you go through tough times and every time, you've shown us, you're much tougher your heart, courage and commitment has always inspired us and now it's no different so, we're here with financial strength, stability and experience you can depend on and the online tools you need because you have always set the highest standard and reaching that standard is what we're made for ♪ that's ensure max protein, with high protein and 1 gram sugar.

it's a sit-up, banana! bend at the waist! i'm tryin'! keep it up. you'll get there. whoa-hoa-hoa! 30 grams of protein, and one gram of sugar. ensure max protein.

and one gram of sugar. going in the wrong tdirection. we have a choice. we can choose to fear, or we can choose to have hope. both have something in common. they ask us to believe something is going to happen that we can not see. we can either believe that god is in control and good things are still in store. or we can believe the fear that says it's only going to get worse from here. fear says there's no answer. fear says the problem is too big. but hope says the best is yet to come.

hope says there is light on the other side. hope doesn't give up. no matter what is going on around us, we can have the hope knowing that god is for us and what he's destined for our lives will come to pass. so when you have the choice of fear or hope, choose hope. may the god of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope. >> harris: fox news alert on this, protesters in michigan began gathering about 30 minutes ago outside the state capital for a rally. you see them in their vehicles. they are 6 feet or more apart, they are trying to adhere to those guidelines. this is all part of pushback against governor gretchen whitmer's expanded stay-at-home order. fox business reporter britney trumbull's life in lansing, michigan, at the side of

that order. grady? >> harris, they are calling this operation gridlock, and they certainly created that at the state capital this morning. you can see we are on the bed of a pickup truck, to give you some perspective. there are cars and trucks as far as the eye can see. this is what he protest looks like in the age of social distancing. the people we have talked to said they don't have a problem with the stay-at-home order, but that governor whitmer's goes too far. for example, you can go on a sailboat or a canoe, but you can go in a motorboat or a jet ski. if you have a second home in the state, you can visit that second home. but if somebody lives out of state, they can come into a vacation home in michigan. at big-box stores, they have had to close areas dedicated to paint, carpet, and flooring as well as garden and furniture. so the people here say this goes too far, it takes away some of their rights, and they are not happy with it. listen. [horns honking] >> you can't buy paint, you

can't buy lawn fertilizer or grass feed? come on. all statewide? really? >> and the governor has said she supports these people's right to protest, even though many cases, you can see out here, they are not social distancing. she says she does have an issue with that if it puts each other and first responders in jeopardy. i've reached out to state police about whether they are going to do anything to enforce people not social distancing, like those people in front of the capitol building. for the most part, by and large, people are following social distancing guidelines, and that's why they are staying in their cars here. harris? >> harris: wow, i have a quick follow-up for you, grady. i don't know how many people he been able to shout to because you can't get too close to each other. i understand that. are people willing to risk getting sick, potentially with coronavirus, versus these guidelines? or do they just say they are not

necessary? what is at the center of this? what do they want the governor to do? >> well, they say this particular order goes too far, and it's too arbitrary. some of those discrepancies and contradictions that i laid out earlier. they are happy to follow stay-at-home orders, they say, even through the end of the month. but they say, for example, if they want to drive to a vacation home without coming into contact with anybody while doing that, they think they should be able to do that. or if they want to go buy paint to do some home improvement projects, they want to be able to do that. they say it's bad for the economy, it goes too far, and it infringes on their rights. another example, harris, is that a lawn care owner can't mow somebody's lawn even if they don't come into contact with their customer. they say that an example of how this is bad for business and it's frustrating for them. >> harris: all right. grady trimble, great job giving us that a view on board that truck bed so we can see it all

happening in lansing, michigan. thank you very much. let's bring it out to the virtual couch now. marie harf, that is a lot of specificity. good friend, meghan mccain come over on another show, pointed out that you can't even buy stuff for your impending baby. she is with child right now. the specificity. paint, furniture, gardening. we are going to stay in our homes, we've got to have materials. you want to support those local businesses. how do you do that? i'm just curious about the level of detail that the governor of michigan has thrown at the citizens who live there. >> marie: it's a great question, harris. every governor is having to deal with this crisis in real time and determine what is best for their state. we seem governors like mike dewine in ohio, jay inslee in washington, who have tailored responses to their states that make a lot of sense. gretchen whitmer, until this order, had been getting very high marks. has done a good job of tailoring

michigan's restrictions to the state. i think some of these probably went a little bit too far. i'm willing to give her a little bit of a grease. back to look at what she did, maybe retool some of them. she's in the middle of the crisis. we see bodies piling up in places like detroit. she and her whole team are really drinking from a fire hose, here. they are trying to do whatever they can. maybe some of these went a little too far and they are going to take another look at them. but i would rather err on the side of doing too much than too little. dr. fauci thought the crisis has said you were always behind where you think you are and confront to get. she's trying to walk that line, and maybe she will rethink a couple of these. i'd rather them be too careful and not careful enough, quite frankly. >> harris: a follow-up on what you said, marie -- and we are looking at this picture, grady trimble and his team have left the camera up so we can continue to watch this. you see people who are now outside those vehicles off to the left, those people on

sidewalks certainly not 6 feet apart. we knew this was coming. i can't imagine that the governor didn't know this was coming. you have to pull together local authorities to be able to make this situation safe with so many people kind of crowding around moving vehicles. my question next, marie, if she knew this was coming, this actually puts people in peril. because they are now together. how much time are you going to give her? you want a grace period, but she had one already, no? >> marie: this crisis is moving very fast, and she just put these new restrictions of the place. i also -- look, protesting is a key part of american democracy. it's part of our right as citizens. >> harris: 100%. >> marie: 100%, harris. to your question to grady, if i'm mad about something, i will probably try and find a way to protest it that doesn't involve putting my own health at risk. so people should not just go out there and not social distance and stand really close together to prove a point. that point is not worth proving in that way right now.

>> harris: katie pavlich, let's get into what marie just kind of tipped on. those are our democratic rights. we have this conversation about primary voting in wisconsin, and i we are looking at the situation. you heard from grady's reporting, police will took a look at this to see the direction, if they can tell people to stay away from each other. my they have to go farther than that? but they have a right to protest. there are a whole lot of lines that seem to be crossing right now. how do you see it? >> katie: well, harris, based on some of the signs i've been seeing on twitter from the people protesting, this isn't just about the coronavirus. this is about people feeling like their lives on the line if they have lost their jobs, if your business is about to go bankrupt, if they can't feed their families. this order does not allow people to go to the store and buy seeds, because it's for gardening, and people are saying that as a threat against them because they are being told they cannot grow their own food on

their own private property. so this is the problem when it comes to an overreach of government. then you have destroyed the trust that you need for people to participate in these policies, to try and slow the spread of the disease. at the same time, if you are telling people arbitrary things like they can't go to the second home or they can grow their own food, that creates other problems and puts their livelihoods on the line. which are just as much of a threat to them as the disease itself. >> harris: it's so interesting. melissa, you saw the warnings today with mayor de blasio in new york telling people that anybody near a grocery store, whether you're working and there were going in there to shop -- i saw the alert a couple of hours ago, a mask and gloves if you can. so if you aren't allowed to grow your own food -- i'm just scratching my head at the things that -- you know what i can't stand, they collide. you have this colliding with that. what are people supposed to think about what truly is safer

then? speech here i think katie hits on a really important point. this idea that there has to be a basic trust between those that are governing a community and the community itself. whether we are talking about the police force or the government. in truth, if you look at what's going on in this video we are watching right now, the government doesn't necessarily have the power to enforce a lot of these rules. he mentioned the thing with the mask on the gloves here in new york. you need a certain amount of cooperation on the part of the public. in order to get that, the public has to feel like you are not arbitrarily deciding these things and you are not penalizing some groups and not others. that there is some wisdom behind it. also, that you are going to hand the power back over to the people when you're done. they are beginning to trace some of the very fundamental beliefs in this country. for example, i'm the one that's in charge of the health of my

children. i will take guidance from other people, but at the end of the day, their health and safety is up to me. >> harris: you bring up a great point there, melissa. for those of us trying to live by example, you are showing others what makes sense. they are looking to moms and dads, too. the governor of new york has begun to speak. i mentioned new york moments ago, with some of the guidelines and what not. he is giving his daily update. let's watch together. >> tell me the facts first, then we will do your opinion. total hospitalizations, still in the 18,000. a click down. good news. that's a fact. that's a fact, that it's good news. not my opinion. you see a flattening of the curve, all these new expressions we've never used before. plateau, flattening, rounding.

net change in hospitalizations down, that's good news. three-day rolling average -- because of it, remember, any 1 of these days of reporting, this is a new reporting system. it is imprecise. i wouldn't bet the farm on any one day's numbers. a three day average is more accurate. i see admissions are down, that's good. in two patients are down. that's very good news. just on a real-life level. when a person is intubated, they're on a ventilator, 80% of the people will never come off the ventilator, or thereabouts. so that's good news. a little reality check, you still have, on a day-to-day basis, about 2,000 people who are being diagnosed with covid.

so, we're out of the woods? no, we're still in the woods. the good news is we showed that we can change the curve. the good news is -- great news, in my opinion -- we can control the spread. that is great news. because, can you imagine if we couldn't control the spread? if we did all this and the spread kept going up? so, we can control the spread. but you still have about 2,000 people a day who are new diagnoses coming into the hospital system. so, it is still a serious public health issue. lives lost, yesterday, 752. which is the painful news of our reality day after day. they are in our thoughts and prayers. you see 707 in hospitals, 45 in nursing homes. people are interested in that,

in those numbers, and how those numbers are changing. but you see the terrible news has basically been flat over the past several days. again, the number of deaths is a "lagging indicator." it's almost disrespectful to put it in scientific terms. but these are people who were probably intubated, they were on a ventilator, and, then again, the period of time on the ventilator normally has a bad outcome. the total number of deaths, the cdc changed guidelines on how they want information reported. another category of probable deaths. which is a new category that is done by the local department of health, or the coroner.

we are going to rationalize those new reporting requirements with local governments, and get that information out as soon as we can. we are also, since we have a little bit of a period to take a breath, we are going to contact nursing homes and facilities to find out if there were other people who passed from covid who were not necessarily in a hospital or in a nursing home. because there is a sense that there may be additional people who have passed away and they weren't included in the count because they weren't in a hospital, they weren't in a nursing home. we'll be going through that. basically, the health care situation has stabilized. the fears of overwhelming the health care system has not happened, thanks to the

phenomenal work of our front-line workers. thanks to all the additional capacity that the hospital system created. over 50% additional capacity in one month. just think of that. thanks to the work that our federal government did, the army corps of engineers providing the beds at javits and comfort. by the way, javits, which is a 2500 bed capacity, is the overflow valve. about 800 people have gone through javits. so, thank you very much. that was a great service that was done by the federal government, and a very short period of time. we have that stabilized. people are still getting infected, but we have the infection spread down to a manageable norm. we accomplish that. people are restless. we have to talk about the reopening of the economy. how do we do this? we have to build a bridge, from

where we are to the reopening of the economy. well, what does that look like? let's say that where were going is not a reopening, in that we are going to reopen what was. we are going to a different place. and we should go to a different place. we should go to a better place. if we don't line the lessons from this situation, that all of this will have been in vain. we learned a lot, if we are willing to open our eyes and open our ears. we are going to a different place, which is a new normal. we talk about the new normal, we've been talking about the new normal for years. we are going to have a new normal in public health. by the way, the way we have a new normal in an environment, the new normal in economics, a new normal in civil rights, a new normal and social justice, this is the way of the world now. we are moving to a new place, and we are moving to a

challenging place, but also potentially better place. "when is this over?" i say -- personal opinion -- it's over when we have a vaccine. it's over when people know, "i'm 100% safe and i don't have to worry about this." when does that happen? when we have our vaccine. when we have a vaccine? 12-18 months. who determines that? the federal government has to test the vaccine, the fda. it's a big gap, 12-18 months, yes. i say the sooner the better. anything we can do to work with the federal government to get a vaccine done faster, we are all in. want to use new york state as laboratory, we are ready, willing, and able. any way th new york state a pert can work with the fda to reduce that testing period we are all d ambitious about it. anything we can do to accelerate that vaccine, we will do. you need to place attested in

large numbers? think of new york. that's the ultimate end. we have a vaccine -- >> harris: there you're watching some of the headlines coming today out of the state of new york, from governor cuomo. he's talking about just some top lines of good news. the rates of things, the death toll coming down. that day today, and also a total of the three-day look at the average of loss here on the east coast, particularly in the new york area. i want to go to dr. siegel on something else that seems to be a headline out of today, and that is that they have a manageable situation for this health care. what are we learning from new york that maybe the rest of the country can glean, and what does that mean, that it's manageable now? >> dr. siegel: it means, harass, that we not how to ventilate his right now. that was actually expanded wards. at my hospitals and other hospitals, we have 24-hour care

going on but we stabilize the situation. it means that other hospitals that are used for people that get better, that i've been looking for placement, that is more or less stabilized. when the governor said that she didn't say "only," but it hundred people have gone through javits when the amount they could have seen is 2500, that shows some plateauing. more manageable, more health care workers. i want to add one word nobody has said yet, except for dr. robert redfield, he told me this yesterday. he's the head of cdc. that's the word "seasonality." redfield believes this is a seasonal virus, that we may see plateauing on top of the great efforts to identify, everybody staying at home, all of this public health we are seeing. on the health care workers. we also may be seeing, as we get warmer, decreased spread due to seasonality. that doesn't mean we have to let up. it's something more positive to bring into the equation. >> harris: two quick questions on that, then.

we have been told that, if it got warmer, nothing would happen. you heard the criticism against the president of the united states when he said, "when it gets warmer, this might go away." well, we knew it wouldn't complete the go away, but where lies the truth in the middle of that? >> dr. siegel: so, the reason there is confusion on that is that pandemics don't always obey seasonality. because we don't have a lot of immunity. somebody brought up the issue of herd immunity. we are not there yet. we don't have a lot of immunity, see you can see pandemics go over the summer. but they would tend to peek in the spring in the fall, because respiratory viruses spread more easily when there is less humid weather in the spring of the fall. we are also looking very closely at australia right now, which is entering its fall. another piece of news, i'm just going to report on it. there's about 8,000 cases in australia, but it's not going like this at this point. so we are watching australia

very carefully to see if there's a big outbreak in the fall, which would then predict our fall. i'm not saying this is seasonal completely, and bringing it up as another positive possible explanation along with all the great public health that is going on. >> harris: all right. it sounds like we have a little bit of a gap here. what do we do in the gap? >> dr. siegel: he talked about the vaccine, being a year, year and a half away. i think that's true. i think we are learning something about social distancing that we can't forget. this whole idea of relaxing and going back to business as usual should never be. we've learned that when you shake somebody's hands you spread germs. we know that cough and can go 1. we are learning a new way of living that we need to follow. by the way, one quick thing about michigan, i want to add then, i have a motorboat.

i can't believe canoes are safer than motorboats, harris. i see canoes cavorting together, people close together preyed on my motorboat, i don't go near anybody. so i objected with the governor of michigan is what doing about motorboats. i want them allowed. >> harris: [laughs] it's interesting, had a reaction, too, with the jet skis and everybody else. i lived in the state of minnesota, i've seen them collide and whatnot. you might create some situations that are dangerous out there. if you're going to locked on the water, and have that heavy-handed this, just do that. we are going to scoot now to a quick commercial and come back. a new cdc report saying an astounding number of health care workers are becoming infected with covid-19 while they are saving lives. our nation's staffers are putting themselves at risk on a daily basis during the pandemic. ♪ it's best we stay apart for a bit, but you're not alone. we're automatically refunding our customers a portion of their personal auto premiums. learn more at libertymutual.com/covid-19.

[ piano playing ] there will be parties and family gatherings. there will be parades and sporting events and concerts. to help our communities when they come back together, respond to the 2020 census now. spend a few minutes online today to impact the next 10 years of healthcare, infrastructure and education. go to 2020census.gov and respond today to make america's tomorrow brighter. it's time to shape our future. many of life's moments in thare being put on hold. are staying at home, at carvana, we understand that, for some, getting a car just can't wait. that's why the new way to buy and sell a car is also the safer way.

at carvana, you can do it all 100% online from home, with a touchless delivery and pick-up process to keep you safe. and for even greater peace of mind, all carvana cars come with a seven-day return policy. shop now and get up to 90 days to make your first payment. check out carvana-- the safer way to buy a car. yeah. this moving thing never gets any easier. well, xfinity makes moving super easy. i can transfer my internet and tv service in about a minute. wow, that is easy. almost as easy as having those guys help you move. we are those guys. that's you? the truck adds 10 pounds. in the arms. -okay... transfer your service online in a few easy steps. now that's simple, easy, awesome. transfer your service in minutes, making moving with xfinity a breeze. visit xfinity.com/moving today.

>> melissa: the cdc finding over 9,000 health care workers in the u.s. have contracted covid-19 over a 2-month period, while at least 27 have died. the cdc also notes that the figures should be considered on the lower end, as many cases

have likely gone "unidentified," or "underreported." dr. siegel, how does this compare to other similar outbreaks, i guess, if there are any? >> dr. siegel: you know, melissa, it doesn't compare to anything, like anything we've seen in the united states before. this is similar to what they saw and china. the reason it's happening, it's very tragic. there's two reasons. one, this is a wildly infectious virus. we more so than we ever realized. not as much as the measles, but it's so easy to catch this. even the respiratory droplets are smaller than with the flu, so it actually projects farther and can get through masks, even pay the other reason is, because there was a lack of proper personal protective equipment. we've been covering that, that there wasn't enough masks, there wasn't enough gowns, there weren't enough shields. were getting more and more of that, but now the question is, do people that have it use it properly? it's got to be so careful, melissa. you can't believe. someone has to help you remove it. you can't touch your face while

you have it on with your glove. you have to be so conscious at all times where you are, what you're wiping down, what you are in contact with. because this virus gets all over the place. it's so easy for health care workers to get sick. >> melissa: it is, for that reason, katie, that i've heard the frustration and sort of hurt from some health care workers who feel like they are cheered as heroes form a far but kind of treated a bit like lepers up close. that their neighbors and those who work with them to want to go near them because of this contagion. it puts them in a difficult place. i have so much compassion for health care workers right now. i don't know, what are your thoughts? >> katie: i would say don't take it personally. i think with the social distancing we are all treating each other somewhat like lepers, as he said. i just have so much respect for the things they are doing, and i would echo what dr. siegel said about needing this personal protective equipment.

it makes a broader argument for why we should be manufacturing that equipment here in the united states, or from countries that are friendly to us so we can get that equipment quickly, when we need it. part of the problem was that china was hoarding this equipment while they were lying to the rest of the world about how contagious this virus was. and companies that were making it in china weren't able to export to the united states in a quick and proper fashion. some policy changes on the way we manufacture those kinds of goods are in order, and quickly. >> melissa: meanwhile, a new study by a group of harvard researchers find that we may need to continue practicing social distancing for longer than expected if we want to avoid covid-19 from researching it overwhelming our health care system. the study says, "intermittent distancing may be required into 2022 and less critical care is increased substantially, or treatment or vaccine becomes available." marie, what do you think about

this? we are all going to have to stay very far apart for a longer time? i wonder what that does to our immunity, too. >> marie: dr. siegel referenced this earlier in his comments in the program, that this virus, this crisis, is going to change the way we interact with each other. quite frankly, it probably should in some ways. we will be scared to shake hands of people probably for a very long time. i think we are to be very careful, clearly, about how we reopen the economy. and it has to be done in stages. there's a big difference between letting people go back to work, reopening restaurants with tables farther apart, and packing 110,000 fans into a football game on saturdays where i grew up in columbus, ohio. those are very different things. that latter category, we were putting a ton of people very close together, those are probably going to have to wait. like governor cuomo said, the key to so much of this is feeling comfortable to getting people out, that vaccine.

that is probably not, as dr. siegel said, coming for some months or possibly longer than a year. >> melissa: dr. siegel, real quick, mary was just saying, getting people into a stadium. it made me year and to go do something fun so much! i'm smiling at her saying that. we are not going to be able to do it, but i am desperate to get back out there and see my friends. i don't know, what are your thoughts on how we get back out there, dr. siegel? >> dr. siegel: this might sound like science fiction, but i envision a future where the testing is playing such a significant role that you actually have a piece of paper that shows you have an antibody to this virus and you can enter into the arena. or that another group that has never been exposed as to be more careful. who has that, who's over it, who can go back to work? those tests need to be rampant. i think they should be given to millions of people as soon as possible. >> melissa: yeah. especially, i mean, we do so much with wearable fitness

monitors. it seems like there's an opportunity there to know in real time what people's health is. thank you, dr. siegel. thank you to the rest of the virtual couch. as i said, i really miss actually being next to you guys. we'll be back here at noon eastern tomorrow. now, here is "outnumbered overtime" with harris. ♪ >> harris: this is "outnumbered overtime." i'm harris faulkner. big questions now on what actually comes next amid all the lockdowns over the coronavirus. president trump is looking to eventually restart the economy, and will be talking about that today with dozens of industry leaders he has tasked as advisors on the plan, which he says he will announce soon. the president also said he has backed off his claim of total authority on the decision, saying he will look at the best path forward. also saying, again, some areas could reopen by may 1st. watch. >> i