♪ ♪ >> tucker: good evening and welcome to "tucker carlson tonight." the president just unveiled a three stage plan for reopeningle america and saving our spiraling economy. what's in it? we will have details in a minute. first tonight an update to a story we've been following for months on the show. from the earliest days of the coronavirus outbreak, honest people who were paying attention noticed something strange about this epidemic. this mysterious new virus did not arise in the way you would think it might, from some t obscure lightly populated place, an african rain forest or a remote indian village. it came instead from the middle of a city of 11 million people, wuhan, china. you may never have heard of wuhan, but it was well known to researchers around the world because was home and is home to

one of only a few dozen advanced level 4 bio labs on the planet. the wuhan laboratory was used for research on some of the deadliest pathogens known to man. as it happens, this facility was not far from the so-called wet market where the coronavirus supposedly originated. kind of an amazing coincidence, if you think about it. was it actually a coincidence or was there a connection between the research lab and the outbreak?he it seems like a question worth asking. unfortunately we live in a political climate in which asking questions is greatly discouraged and obedience is prized. speculation about it remained private, mostly online. in february, senator tom cotton of arkansas said it out loud. >> a few miles away from that food market is china's only biosafetyet level 4 super laboratory that researches human infectious diseases. we don't have evidence that this disease originated there, but because of china's duplicity and dishonesty from the beginning,

we need to at least ask the question to see what the evidence is. we have such laboratories ourselves in the united states run by our military, in large part done for preventative purposes. we are trying to discover vaccines or to protect our own soldiers. >> tucker: of course. everything about tom cotton's questions, the one you just saw, were valid. was there a connection between the lab and the virus? we oughtab to see where the evidence leads, as he said. the people who are paid to follow the evidence refused to do that and instead they mocked cotton as a paranoid lunatic. on cnn, serial plagiarist fareed zakaria dismissed cotton as a "far right conspiracist". zakaria compared cotton's entirely legitimate questions to soviet disinformation from the 1980s that claimed the cia aids. >> tom cotton, one of donald trump's staunchest allies in the senate, suggested the virus might've been originated in a high-security biochemical lab in china.

in the 1980s, i remember when the far left trafficked in rumors about hiv having beenem invented in cia labs. the far right has now found its own virus conspiracy theory. >> tucker: what a mediocrity. what a slander. over on nbc, famed journalist brian williams also refused to engage in journalism. rather than spend 10 minutes learning about the subject and making up his own mind, william simply joined the herd of other dumb people mocking a story they didn't understand. >> cotton has been criticized by public health professionals for giving just a whiff of credibility there on television and on social media to a conspiracy theory going around that they coronavirus originated and was perhaps man-made inside a lab in china, perhaps even as a bio weapon, and was released either intentionally or unintentionally deployed.

there is no evidence to support that. >> tucker: there is no evidence to support that. it sounds authoritative.po actually brian williams had no idea what he was talking about. at the time he said that, the evidence indeed was accumulating. the wuhan wet market they're always citing, turns out it didn't even sell the variety of bats that carry covid-19. those bats were hundreds of miles away. a group of chinese researchers confirmed this fact in january when they interviewed 59 people who worked in the market or shopped there. that information is widely available. it was online when williams made what he calls his broadcast andl issued the airy dismissal you just saw. he just didn't bother to read any of it. none of them did. tonight williams and all the robots like him owe you an apology. fox's "special report," has confirmed that a government sources with access to highly classified intelligence, informed people, believe this virus did in fact originate in thed bio lab in wuhan. the first infected patient wasn

likely a lab employee who accidentally contracted the virus and then spread it to the rest of the world. that wet market theory, it was just a cover. china pushed that story to western media to deflect blame from itself and of course our press corps, as they always do, they ate it up immediately. we still do not know conclusively this virus escaped from a lab in wuhan, but tonight we can say with ample evidence that it is the most plausible explanation for the epidemic now wrecking our country. and that's a big story. t why didn't we know this sooner? there was a specific reason for that. thedn people who bring you the news were lying about it. and they were covering for china. in february, "the new york times" announced "that senator tom cotton repeats fringe theory of coronavirus origins." according to "the washington post," "tom cotton keeps repeating a coronavirus conspiracy theory that was already debunked." really? by whom? on march 5, vox.com weighed in, "rumor is that coronavirus

started in a chinese lab. here's how we know it didn't." in their signature, smug, haranguing tone, vox said "on fox news and social media, a dangerous conspiracy theory about the origin of coronavirus won't die." why was it dangerous? they never explain. as proof that coronavirus could not escape from that lab in wuhan, vox said that the lab had same safety protocols as top american labs, meaning naturally, the virus just couldn't escape. it was unthinkable to them that maybe china's safety practices might be different from ours and perhaps inferior. this is mindless. this is dishonest. this is infuriating. this story matters. they intentionally obscured it. in fact, state department emails from 2018, two years ago, reveal that the wuhan lab had disastrous safety practices. even then, american officials worried that the deadly virus might escape from that lab due to chinese incompetence.

they put that on paper. but vox meanwhile was quoting the world health organization's bruce aylward to assure you anything such talk was crazy and immoral and probably racist. this was the same bruce aylward who is becoming a professional shill for the government of china. in one interview we played a couple of weeks ago, aylward refused to acknowledgeer the existence of the nation of taiwan. why? because his masters in beijingna might disapprove. vox's article on the wuhan lab ended "we need to be patient for chinese investigators to get d o the bottom of it." right. let's let china do the reporting for us, because they are objective. it's hard to believe any of this is real, but it is real. we shouldn't be surprised by it. these are dogmatic defenders of the chinese government posing ae american journalists. they are the very same people who promote travel bans to north carolina, then fly off to beijing for green energy conferences. these are the ones who run central committee press releases as news, as cnn did yesterday,

and kill stories critical of the chinese government, as bloomberg has more than once. they censor movies and silence their own employees to keep china happy. hollywood specializes in that, and they filled their universities with the offspring of chinese oligarchs, displacing our own children. they have outsourced ouroo prosperity across the pacific ocean and they have gotten rich while doing it. so of course they are repeating china's lies about this pandemic. they have been training for this for years. will they be punished? we don't know.. but remember their names. you should also remember the people who told the truth about all of this when it was unfashionable to do so. steven moshier is one of them. he was on the story months ago. >> i think it escaped from the lab because we have the chinese government basically telling us that it did. wuhan is the only level 4 laboratory and all of china, so that's where you would put a dangerous pathogen, whether you were genetically engineering it to be a weapon or

not, that's where you'd be experimenting on it, so it makes sense that the epicenter of the epidemic, that the lab there would be the source of that virus. >> tucker: steven mosher awaits an apology from fareed zakaria. meantime, he is the president of the population research institute and the author of "bully of r asia why china's drm is the new threat to the world order." mr. mosher, thank you for coming on. you are one of the most informed researchers on this question. now you've been, to a large extent, vindicated. tell us what we know right now about the origins of this virus. >> well, we all know now that a bat, solitary bat, did not fly 600 miles from its cave dwelling in another province to the city of wuhan and land in someone's soup. everyone now agrees except for a few marginals that it escaped from a so-called high containment laboratory. i chuckle when i say high

containment, because obviously it failed at what it was supposed to do. it was operating at level 2. but now the question becomes, was it a naturally occurring horseshoe bat coronavirus that was isolated in the wuhan institute of virology and then accidentally escaped from the lab by infecting a lab worker? or was it a virus that the researchers there were working on using gain of function technology. you take an existing coronavirus and you make it more infectious and more deadly. why would you ever engage in gain of function research? why would you ever seek to enhance a natural pathogen in this way to make it more deadly and more infectious? the idea of the scientists when they first discovered that they could do these things easily by using recombinant technology was we are going to create superbugs in the lab and we're going to figure out how to defeat them. we are going to develop in

theory, we're going to develop vaccines. we are going to develop therapeutic treatments and so when the real superbug comes on ohe scene, we will be readyo for it. that's all well and good. that's all fun and games until you create a superbug in the lab and it escapes before you have a chance to develop a vaccine or therapeutic treatment for it. i'm not saying that's what happened in this case and i'mc not saying that it's a bio weapon. quick changing the subject, which is what the other side lovess to do. we know that the lab director ad the wuhan institute of virology, who was the team leader for virology resource, the doctor, using research for years to create new, more deadly and more infectious coronavirus. dr. shi needs to tell us what she was doing and how she was doing it. the chinese communist party needs to release the secret records of the wuhan institute

of virology and then we'll all know for sure whether this was a coronavirus in the lab it was escaped, whether they were tinkering on in any way. i am not naive at all. i know that china will probably have already destroyed the records, the research records at the wuhan institute of virology. they've been destroying records left and right already. they probably already warned the doctor that she's not to talk to anyone about her research. they warned other people. i don't think we are ever going to have a people are demanding, hard evidence. because the chinese, and his party has destroyed it. >> tucker: welcome of course. elof course. there's a reason that they oubought and paid for the world health organization, it's becoming clear. mr. mosher, think as much for joining us tonight. fascinating. hopepe you'll come back. >> thank you, tucker. >> tucker: so the question of whether coronavirus originally came from, a lab or a wet market, isn't some irrelevant

fact, interesting only to specialist. it's not going to be the answer to a jeopardy question in 20 years. it's meaningful right now.an here's one reason. if this virus came from a wet market, then the pandemic was at least a natural disaster. but if this disaster began in the lab, if it escape from the lab, it's a completely different thing. it is a man-made disaster. if it escaped due to chinese mismanagement and spread because china was determined to cover it up, it's something else completely. in 1984, union carbide pesticide plant in india had a gas leak, almost 4,000 people died. maybe more. tens of thousands were sickened and injured. union carbide in the end paid almost a billion dollars, adjusted, to settle damages from that disaster. if it turns out that china's lies and secrecy and incompetence have killed more than 150,000 people worldwide, then that's very different. trillions of dollars in economic

damages.s. this could trigger a full-scale global depression. that would suggest that may be the rest of the world is due a settlement from china. will leaders begin asking about this? maybe they should. bret baier hosts "special report" and was behind yesterday's news which forms the basis of our open tonight. bret, thank you for that, to you and your team, for digging up that information which i think is really significant. where do you think it will lead from here? >> a couple things. more sources today saying that there's a full-scale investigation. the intel is not conclusive, as we reported, that there is more open source and classified material pointing to the wuhan lab. not as a bio weapon but as a mistake, a sloppy effort that eawas warned about, as you mention, these cables two years ago. where doesn't go from here?

there are already lawmakers talking about possible payback. what does that look like? there are a lot of different options. this is bipartisan, concerns about what it looks like. while it is inconclusive about the lab part of it, there's high confidence, 100% conclusion that china covered up the early stages of this virus on the ground to an amazing extent. could have changed the dynamic around the world. so what's the big thing they could do? they could amend the foreign sovereign immunities act and allow class action lawsuits against china. sothe ccp, the communist party. believe it or not, there are already tonight to class action lawsuits filed in the united states district court in miami against the ccp. there would have to be a change in congress would look at that. we're already seeing bills about pulling back manufacturing in

the pharmaceutical industry. that could be expanded to other aspects. there would be an effort to make china feel some pain for their actions, whatever it turns to be. >> tucker: let me ask you a final question, since you follow this for a living and you're there in washington. do you think this is a beginning of a sea change in the attitudes of our leaders in washington toward china? >> i do. i think it's not just our leaders but leaders around the world are going to take another look at the relationship with china. the thing that complicates it this year is the election. and how will joe biden and democrats fashion this and kind of, will they try to say that we needmo to be friendlier to china to get things done? i don't know how that's going to come down politically but clearly it's raising a lot of eyebrows on capitol hill. >> tucker: it sounds like it is. really important reporting. thank you for that. bret baier. >> see you, tucker.

>> tucker: gretchen whitmer has spent most of her working life in the grubby small bore confines of michiganan state politics. that is not a training ground for excellence. when she was elected governor a little over a year and half ago, nobody expected that whitmer would suddenly morph into a wise and inspired chief executive. and indeed she hasn't. when the coronavirus hit michigan in force last month, whitmer had no clue what to do, so she responded with a mixture of comical ineptitude and a weird kind of arbitrary fascism. sheco banned the sale of carpets and paint and potted plants. she told people they couldn't fish or go to church or drive alone to their own homes. but at the same time, whitmer kept liquor stores, weed shops, and lotto kiosks open because, and this was purely an epidemiological matter, in the interest of public health, those were essential services, quote. they also happen to providedevi massive tax revenue to her government.th thess whole thing was ridiculou. it was just a matter of time before the people suffering

under this insanity said something about it. yesterday they did. thousands of michigan residents drove to the state capitol in lansing to express their displeasure. they didn't hurt anyone while they were there. they did it peacefully, h as is their enshrined right under the american constitution. governor whitmer didn't like it. she was outraged. if there's one thing gretchen whitmer doesn't care for, it is civil disobedience. especially when it's aimed at her. as witmer explained yesterday, complaining about her decisions could kill people. >> you know, when people are flying the confederate flag and untold numbers have gassed up on the way here or grabbed a bite on the way home, we know that this rally endangered people. >> tucker: when you disagree with gretchen whitmer, you endanger the public. that's the new standard in michigan. debbie dingell supports that standard. dingell is a long-time gm lobbyist, a car lobbyist, who

inherited her congressional seat from her husband who in turn inherited it from his father. a dingell has represented michigan in the u.s. house of representatives continuously for 88 years,om since 1932. the family business is politics, but it's really a form of monarchy. you won't be surprised to learn debbie dingell is very popular socially in washington. she shares with her neighbors an undisguised loathing for the people of michigan. she expressed that contempt this morning on nbc. >> what happened yesterday was an excusable. uspeople did not have masks. they didn't have gloves. they didn't distance themselves. they had confederate flags, swastikas. they blocked an ambulance trying to get to a hospital. hate and fear into a time that's already full of fear and anxiety. it's not acceptable. there were people barehanded handing candy to children. what they did was help spread this disease around the state more, most likely, not contributing to the mitigation.

and it just made me sad. m >> tucker: oh, sad. debbie dingell is sad. she is sad the people are expressing inconvenient political beliefs when they should be drinking alone at home or obediently buying more state-sponsored lotto tickets. why can't they hit michigan's entirely essential weed stores and numb out,wh as their benevolent leader gretchen solidifies her control over their lives. why do they have to complain all the time? saying unapproved things is racist. it inspires fear and hate. stop it right now, you proles. how dare you? fire up a bowl and accept your fate. the president has revealed his three-phase plan for reopening the united states. how long will it take and how long will it take before things get back to normal and how bad as the economic damage underlying all of it? that is all ahead. all of it? that is itching for a treat.

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>> our approach outlines three phases in restoring our economic life. we are starting our life again. we are starting rejuvenation of our economy again in a safe and structured and very responsible fashion. >> tucker: at his coronavirus briefing today, the president explained his three-phase plan for reopening the country. phase one would be letting stores come back, restaurants, movie theaters, churches, similar venues once coronavirus cases show a two-week downward trajectory. phase two would reopen schools

and day care centers and allow travel to resume. phase three would entail letting people who are vulnerable, the elderly, people with pre-existing conditions, back into society, allowing visitors to hospitals and nursing homes. levels of social distancing would continue throughout the process. neel kashkari, president of the federal reserve bank of minneapolis, recently said the country should expect a full recovery process to take a year and a half. >> i think we should all be focusing on an 18 month strategy for our health care system and our economy. if it ends up being shorter than that, that's great. we should prepare for the worst-case scenario. >> tucker: neel kashkari joins us. thank you for coming on. how do you assess the president's three-phase plan? >> you know, tucker, thanks for having me. i'm always a not a health expert myself but i talk to a lot of epidemiologists. it seems consistent with the advice and feedback we've heard from health experts, there's a way to slowly open the economy.

we want to try to avoid the virus flaring back up again and giving back the gains we've had. i think a staged approach, looking over the horizon, make sense. so i think it's consistent with what i've heard from the experts. >> tucker: you are an expert on monetary policy, of course. and the economy more broadly. where are we, do you think? it's probably a complex answer, but how would you sum up the condition of the u.s. economy right a s now? >> it's not grinding to a halt, but this is the deepest and quickest shutdown of the economy that we've got a record for. the unemployment, some 20 million people filing for unemployment claims in a few weeks. we have never seen something like that before. it's really staggering. that's just because the american people are taking this very seriously. they are socially distancing and they are doing their part but obviously the economic effects are profound.

>> tucker: is there a limit to twhat the fed can do over time? is there a limit to the amount of money we can pump in from the fed, do you think? >> well, the fed is providing loans. congress gave us the ability to provide loans to banks to make sure there's liquidity in the system. we can do that. but what a lot of businesses need right now is, there's this paycheck protection program that congress created. $350 billion for small businesses. that's essentially a grant program to help them retain their employees. i have heard from a lot of businesses that say we need grants. we don't need loans. businesses, small and medium-size businesses. i think the challenge is not so much with the fed. it's really with congress that has the spending authority, the taxing and spending authority, on how much they want to do and how long this is going to go. right now we just don't know. is it going to be three months, six months until we get some kind of a therapy? or could it really be 18 months until we get a vaccine? because we don't know how the virus is going to progress. there's a lot of uncertainty. >> tucker: that's for sure. it's really hard to predict

anything.o we learned the other day that cigarette smokers apparently in china were less likely to die so, we know nothing and it's a l really good point. i wonder if going forward it seems likece an awful lot of moy sloshing around. is inflation a concern? >> over the long-term, we know it is. we know there's a limit. when governments, deficit finance, eventually they reach a limit and then it can lead to inflation. right now the biggest risk for the u.s. economy is low inflation, falling prices potentially. we think we have the tools to stave it off.s i think over the long run, inflation is a concern. i don't like it's a concern as we try to address this virus. >> tucker: okay. so you sound a little more hopeful maybe than i expected. >> well, you know, we can't shutdown the economy e completey for 18 months. of course not. we also can just flip a switch and go back to normal because is likely the virus will flare back up. we need to be smart as we try to bring this back on and look for flareups. we may have to slow things down. we need to find a middle way

through. i think that the president's plan, again, it reflects the thadvice i've heard from epidemiologists about focusingnt on businesses that can, you can use a mask. you can socially distancest et cetera. >> tucker: neel kashkari, thank you for coming on tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> tucker:g tens of millions of americans are out of work and of course it can take years to get them all working again, some may never work again. so why are some of our leaders using this crisis as an opportunity to bring even more foreign workers to this country and dilute the labor pool? shouldn't they be cutting back immigration right now? wouldn't that be the sane thing to do? 80% of americans want that. why aren't they doing it? details after the break.% at fisher investments,hey ? we do things differently and other money managers don't understand why. because our way works great for us! but not for your clients. that's why we're a fiduciary, obligated to put clients first. so, what do you provide? cookie cutter portfolios?

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and a great depression era levels. the government reporting thursday that another 5.2 million americans applied for unemployment benefits last week. that brings the four-week coronavirus pandemic 222 million. and that translates on one in sn american workers. and a hard hit new york, state reported 606 covid-19 debts wednesday, the lowest number in two weeks but still alarmingly

high. governor andrew cuomo with the last of major improvements thursday and ordered social distancing rules to stay in place until may 15th. 18,000 new workers are hospitalized and 4400 of them are on ventilators. i'm ashley strohmeyer. now back to "tucker carlson tonight." >> tucker: because of the way our leaders have responded to this pandemic, and we assume most were well-meaning, but still america is now facing its risk jobs crisis since the great depression. in the past month, more than one in ten american workers has lost their job. getting our people back to work must be our top national goal period. poverty over time kills more americans and destroy more american families than any virus ever could. yet amazingly some of our country's leaders are working tonight to make certain americans remain unemployed. over the weekend, npr reported agriculture secretary sonny perdue is fighting to lower something called the adverse affect wage rate.

the aew essentially is a special minimum wage that applies only to guest workers and agriculture. it's higher than the normal u.s. minimum wage. it was designed to preventr companies from using foreign workers toig drive down american wages. of course driving down wages is the dream of most companies. why wouldn't it be? now the department of agriculture is working to help companies do that. lowering the federal wage rate wouldn't simply make it easier to bring in more foreign workers. it would also allow companies to force pay cuts on domestic employees they currently have. if the workers don't like it, they can be fired and replaced by foreigners. so we contacted the agriculture department and we asked, why is lowering wages and bringing in more foreign workers suddenly so important right now? with millions and millions andgn millions of americans out of work. they replied this way. "long-standing challenges facing the agriculture industry have been exacerbated by these uncertain times." so there you have it. long-standing.

in other words, they've been trying to do this for quite some time. and the crisis is just a perfect time to do it. in fact, if federal bureaucrats want to make sure crops are picked and the food supply secure and those are good goals, there are other things they could do.an they could help out of work americans get temporary jobs on farms if theyth want to. they could subsidize their wages for the duration of thismp disaster and there are other options,re but those options are being ignored. the irony is the same people who want an endless torrent of foreigners working here,e, and a lot of them work in think tanks, manypl in the federal governmen, happen to be the same people who are happy to lecture you and the rest of us about the sacred efficiency of markets. right now it turns out, there is no labor shortage in the united states, just them. opposite. we are drowning in available workers. millions of them. maybe 20 million. if ag companies are struggling to find employees right now, it could be possible they are not paying enough.

because that's how markets work, remember, supply and demand? our leaders know this well because they spent years lecturing the rest of us about how the unemployed should adapt to the market every time their factories close and their jobs get outsourced to china. how about following their own rules for once? if you want workers, play them american wages. the rest of us would be happy to buy slightly more expensive lettuce. jeff sessions was president trump's attorney general. he is running to reenter the united states senate.s he recently made the suggestion. how about a nationwide moratorium on immigration until america's unemployment rate has recovered from this disaster? jeff sessions joins us. senator, thanks so much for coming on. tell us your proposal. i want to make sure i didn't misstateor it. >> we have about 1.4 million people that come to this country every year to take jobs. we just announced today 5 million more people on the unemployment roll, that's

22 million now. there is no doubt it's in the interestmi of the united statesf america to make sure that we get every one of those unemployed americans the jobs first. i mean, it's psychologically devastating to a person not toth have work. it undermines their well-being and family. in addition, we have to help them financially if they are unemployed. whether it's medicaid, medicare, food stamps, unemployment insurance. so why bring in foreign workers to take those jobs when we should do everything possible, as you suggested, to get american workers that are unemployed in those jobs. >> tucker: that is such an obvious point, and i should note that you are employing the most basic economic principle of all, supply and demand. tighter labor market means higher wages. who could possibly object to that? do most americans agree with you, do you think? >> i think most americans to agree with me. i think the poll is almost 90%

said if there is ari choice between who should get a job, the americans should get the job over a foreigner. give me a break. how simple is that? who do we owe our responsibility to, as government and public officials? it's to the american people first. so that's absolutely true. if we do this thing right, we can minimize the number of people that have prolonged unemployment. it's a scary time. it's very scary. we need to be very alert to the dangers. think about a college graduate today, in may will be graduating. what kind of prospects do they have? we have almost 500,000 tech workers that come to america. can't we figure out a way to make sure that our kids, maybe with college debt, get those jobs first? before you bring in foreigners. it's just the nature of the world today.gn

we need to protect our own. it's the rational, moral, responsible thing to do. >> tucker: this could be a long answer. we only have a minute left but i have to ask you since you worked in government for decades. if close to 90% of the publicin wants something to happen and it never happens, for many years, is this really a democracy? >> you are asking a fundamental question. this is a time, this issue and others like it i really raised to the level that the american people understand the issue. it's not done surreptitiously under the table by establishment politicians in both parties, often supported by the low-wage agenda of some of the corporate powers that be. that's how i defeated, led the fight to defeat the immigration bill. it took a long time but once the american people understood those bills, they turneded against thm

and the politicians did. until they really understood the nature of it, it was on the pathway to passage. this is a real political question of importance for america. people like yourself do help keep the american people informed. >> tucker: we are trying on this one, for sure. senator sessions, great to see you tonight. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> tucker: throughout this pandemic, the nation of sweden has steadfastly refused to lock down the population no matter what the rest of the world does. it's taken huge amount of abuse for doing that. what's the result then? how is sweden doing? anything we can learn from what they've done? that's next. e done? that's next. when we started our business

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♪ >> tucker: pretty much the entire western world has ground to a halt in response to this pandemic, but one country has decided not to follow their lead.ut sweden never closed primary schools. restaurants and shops have stayed open. large gatherings have been canceled. the vulnerable have been encouraged to stay home, but sweden has never locked down. never embraced the chinese model of unprecedented society-wide repression. so how exactly it has that worked for them and what can we learn, if anything? a professor at the department of pharmaceutical economics and policy of the university of southern california joins us tonight. thank you so much for coming on. what do you think the lessons, if any, for us from sweden are? >> well, i think the lessons are pretty clear. sweden has about the same deaths per million as the united states, and yet they haven't gone through anywhere close to the pain and suffering and lost careers, lost jobs,

lost families that we have had to deal with. they are out enjoying life. they are in parks, restaurants, and theaters. >> tucker: so for my entire lifetime, and my last name is carlson, so i pay attention to this, the left is kind of lauded sweden as a model for the rest of the world. the swedish model was always the one held up as the best way. in the last month, i have heard more people attacked sweden maybe than ever before. why the anger? >> i think it's somewhat justified. i think sweden is proving to the world that none of this is necessary, and so why do we americans have to do silly things like not going to beaches, not go to parks, not going to restaurants and cultural events, not even go to our religious ceremonies? and the swedes, they have limitations, a few, and i think under the circumstances they are

relatively sensible, given the mass hysteria everywhere else. buten they don't engage in those things. and if you compare sweden and norway, which is a very similar country right next door, 1,000-mile open border, norway slammed their economy into reverse and sweden is doing much better. >> tucker: how is the death rate between the two countries? markedly different? >> that's kind of interesting. sweden has a death rate that's the same as ours. keep in mind we have had to go h through a lot of shutdowns, and we are about the same as sweden. norway has a lower death rate, l although we can argue whether that is statistically meaningful. but their total case rate is actually higher than sweden. they went through all these shutdowns, all these restrictions, all these business closures. and they still have more cases. no one on the side of let's do social distancing can explain to

me why is it that if you shut down the economy, you get more cases? why is there a difference between deaths per case between two countries? that doesn't really make a lot of sense. if you're going to engage in these social controls, they should control deaths. isn't that the whole point? we are not trying to control cases. we are trying to control bad outcomes, like death. >> tucker: it's a very good point. instead of paying attention to any of that, we rushed headlong into the chinese model and ignored the swedish model. it should tell you a lot, and we are going to spend years trying to figure this out, but i think we are on the sense already. professor, great to see you tonight. thank you. >> thank you, tucker. >> tucker: so we know from the relatively limited data sets that are available right now than most people who get the coronavirus will not die. the overwhelming majority will not die. but here's a question. is it possible they will suffer from other long-term damage? it's an ominous question.

dr. marc siegel will fill us in on that next.

>> tucker: last night, we talk with new jersey governor phil murphy and nice and gave him enough to come homee and explained to us he closed churches, schools, and parks for the safety and well-being of everyone. we asked him, liquor stores are still open, why question mikey said they are essential, that's

what the experts say.es >> liquor scores are deemed an essential service. on the basis of what scientific evidence did you decide that? >> we rely on a whole lot of reasonable input from recovery coaches, addiction coaches, and they cautioned us if we were to shutter those stores down, we have unintended mental health and addiction prices to pay, unintended consequences. >> tucker: so people who specialize in helping alcoholics recover demand thatpl alcoholics have access to alcohol. that was the argument. he was just following the signs, he said. so we checked. here is the science. according to the w.h.o., of all places, drinking hard alcohol weakens the immune system and increases the risk that a case of coronavirus will become serious. alcohol is one thing united states do not import much

ndom china so actually willing to believe the w.h.o. is telling the truth on this one. so no, keeping liquor stores open had nothing to do with the science. the science would've suggested the opposite course. something else was going on here. how much does h the liquor lobby contribute to new jersey democrats? that might be worth checking. they probably contribute to more politicians than new jersey than churches do. well, one deserving case out of the state of michigan should we be worried about the long-term effects of this virus on people who haven't been hurt in the short-term? that's a real question. the answer, dr. marc siegel. joins us now. doctor, thanks for coming on. should we be worried about the long-term effects? >> yes, we should. this isn't a happy part of the story. most of the people who get

covid-19 get mild cases. if you end up in the hospital, there is a 25% chance you can end up in the icu and i want to tell you what that looks like. you could have strokes, damages to the small and large vessels of the brain, seeing hard to damage, damage to the vessels leading to the heart. same thing to thee kidneys, we are seeing damage from the virus itself, theor inflammation it causes, and blood clots, we are seeing blood clots in the lungs, pulmonary embolism, we are seeing fluid in the lungs. people don't always get better from this especially with all the underlying clots so we are trying blood thinners out, trying supportive care outcome and trying oxygen out. i talked to dan sterman tonight who is the head of pulmonary. we call them the general, the head of the end icu. what's the key people recovering and he surprised me, he said it's nursing care, respiratory care, it's frequent suctioning, diligent nursing care 24 hours.

it's not even the physicians. we need to put hats off to our nurses tonight for the care they diligently give to our very sick, extreme patience. we get them off the ventilator is and unfortunately we are dealing with long-term disabilities in a lot of cases. it's a very badng virus. >> tucker: it is and it's scary. i will say that sounds like a platitude but it's not. anybody who's been in the hospital for more than about 20 minutes is grateful to the nurses. for real. some of the kindest people i've ever met. i never thought i would say that, but it's true. dr. siegel, great to see you tonight. >> tucker: we are out of time. thank you for joining us tonight but we hope you will do the same tomorrow for there is an awful lot going on just beneath the surface, not simply with the developments and progression of this pandemic. but in the tectonic changes taking place around the world. changes in power, in attitude,

and custom, things will not look the same a year from now. it's worth thinking through now what they are going to look like. we hope will help you do that. have a great and happy evening with the ones you love. is in new york this evening. >> sean: tucker, thank you. i have the hannity plan to open new york stadium. a lot of breaking news, multiple fronts tonight. thank you for being with us. we continue tonight to expose how china consciously, knowingly put protections in place for theirly entire country while putting the rest of the world at risk resulting in sickness, death, and disease. a full report last night, remember, bret baier revealed from multiple sources that the coronavirus likely originated in a wuhan viral lab. it wasn't created in the lab, very clear about that, and patient zero was a worker in the lab who became infected by a bat. as of now,