>> sandra: absolutely. we will have continuing coverage on the fox news channel, and ed and i will see you not o'clock a.m. eastern tomorrow morning. thank you so much for joining us. don't miss it. "outnumbered" starts right now. >> harris: new concerns today about coronavirus flaring up again in the united states. the cdc director, robert redfield, his warning about a second wave of the virus later this year. he said it could be more devastating than what we are seeing now. "there's a possibility the assault of the virus on our nation less winter will be more difficult than the one we just went through. we are going to have the flu epidemic and the coronavirus epidemic at the same time." fda director stephen 11 says the worst case scenarios are to be taken into account. >> it certainly possibility. the whole task force and doctors are concerned about the second wave. dr. redfield's concern is that there also might be flu at the

same time. that's why we have built into the plan surveillance mechanisms to look for the respiratory illnesses and do the appropriate testing at that time. that's going to be a critical part of the reopening plan. >> harris: you're watching "outnumbered." i'm harris faulkner. here today, melissa francis. emily compagno, attorney at fox news contributor. jessica tarlov, fox news contributor. joining us today, dr. marc siegel, professor of medicine at nyu langone medical center and fox news contributor. dr. siegel is "outnumbered," as we say come in the center box. good to see if ready today. see to mike doc, will come to first. let's talk about the second wave that will be coming, and what cdc director redfield is saying, and others. what is your take on it? >> dr. siegel: actually, harris, a spoke to dr. redfield about this last week.

the exact thing. i have a different take. here's what i think -- i think he expects, and he told me this, do have extensive testing in place by the fall. i'm talking about rapid testing and antibody testing. he thinks that will help us to control it by then. we'll have the exact science we need. secondly, the good side of this is he feels -- and dr. fauci has told me the same thing -- they feel this virus is starting to look seasonal. that would mean that dr. redfield expects it to flatten out by the summer, by june, by the end of may, june. that's also good news. then i said to him, "what about australia, what about the southern hemisphere? if you think this is seasonal, doesn't what's happening in australia now predict what might happen here i in the fall?" and he said i was lee so. same for dr. fauci. but let me tell you the good news. the good news is very premature, here. it's the equivalent of september now in australia, and we are seeing flat cases. we are seeing 6600 cases so far.

it is not spiking yet. all eyes are on the southern hemisphere right now to see what we might be facing here in the fall. >> harris: i'm going to ask our team to pop up this on the screen for us to take a look at and get a reaction to this, doc siegel. this says more people are dying from coronavirus than just one month then during the entire 2018-2019 season of influenza. u.s. confirmed deaths, march 20th-april 20th, 42,000 from coronavirus, seasonal flu, 2018-2019 season, 34,200. what's your take on that? >> dr. siegel: this, harris, is deeply disturbing. i think this shows a couple of things. first of all, there's way more cases out there undiagnosed then we realize. a symptomatic cases. that's why we see so many cases of severe illness. second, our health care system was not ready for this. we got overwhelmed by the suddenness of this.

all the secondary effects of this virus, the way it impacts the lungs, the immunity problems, where you get a hyper immune response, blood clots we are seeing, multiple organs affected, heart, kidneys, lungs, brain, all of this is overwhelmed our health care system. of course, the preexisting conditions, the way it affects the elderly, the obese, people with diabetes and heart disease. it's very devastating virus in those high-risk groups. that's what we weren't ready for. it clearly has come over us very rapidly, and that's why we've kind of had such a severe public health response. >> harris: all right. well, as things pop this hour, of course we lean on you heavily, doc siegel. glad you're along with us. i want to move to this, the executive order which president trump says he plans to sign today would temporarily suspend immigration to the united states for at least 60 days to make sure jobless americans do not get left behind. watch. >> millions of americans sacrifice their jobs in order to battle the virus and save the lives of our fellow citizens.

by pausing immigration we will help unemployed americans first in line for jobs, as america reopens. so important. it would be wrong and unjust for americans laid off by the virus to be replaced with new immigrant labor flown in from abroad. >> harris: emily, what's your take on this? >> emily: well, title 42 of the u.s. code affords the president the ability to halt immigration because of public health. i want to point out a recent supreme court decision that upheld the so-called travel ban, which i venture to say sort of gave him unlimited authority in regard to immigration. i think the important thing for viewers to note is that this is a lot more restrictive than the initial comments about this executive order. the actual order is a mere 60 day pause on those seeking permanent residence in the united states. it's those seeking green cards. it has note effect on seasonal

workers, seasonal farmworkers, for example. those entering the country on a temporary basis. frankly, it is sound authority but it's also sound rationale, that was 22 million americans unemployed and with us in the middle of a pandemic, and we are trying to cope and mitigate these, this is a sound executive orders. if there are issues with it, it'll play out in the courts. for now, i don't see a problem. >> harris: all right. very interesting. you know, melissa, when we were talking about this coming today -- and today is potentially the day the president could send this executive order -- we were talking yesterday about how this has been one of those things that has really marked or been his signature from the campaign all the way through his presidency. speech you know, it's true. i read it a little differently. to me, it has more to do with this idea that we can't have open borders in this very liberal social welfare program. right now, we are spending an alarming amount of money that is, in most cases, necessary to

be spent in order to prop up municipalities, state governments, cities. we have 22 million people on unemployment. not that these folks would threaten their jobs if they came into the country, but they would show up and potentially go to hospitals and use our very valuable resources right now. i think that while we are in this. where, basically, americans aren't paying for things and the government has to come in and rescue businesses and rescue families, that we just can't afford to be rescuing folks coming here for that liberal social welfare policy. that's how i read it. >> harris: is so common to both of you, emily and melissa, i'm curious -- when you hear about the pushback on the president, like, "why now? you can't get much done right now anyway or immigration because things have been installed." emily, you would know this best, just legally.

the whole process has kind of been halted through the pandem pandemic. i'm curious to know, what about the pushback? >> emily: right. well, like i said, if there are actual pushback for us, we'll see it play out in the courts. you're right, the president has made over a dozen changes to our immigration system as a result of the pandemic. the larger point is that his authority over immigration and especially for justifications of public health are quite broad. as i said earlier, it is virtually unlimited given the recent supreme court decision. i think the other thing to keep in mind, in terms of perspective, is the temporary nature of this. this is a 60-day pause. of course, it can be extended and re-upped, but i think the larger point is that this is an emergency measure in emergent times of the temporary duration. >> harris: melissa, it is interesting.

you brought up the notion about the care services, leaning on that, so on and so forth. the jobs that they would want or necessarily go after, and 22 million americans who have lost theirs, how did they stack up? >> melissa: yeah, i mean, i have a hard time sort of extending this idea to the idea that people are going to show up and take away jobs from those who are looking for them. i mean, especially if, as emily said, it's not seasonal workers, it's not people related to the food chain. it sounds like it is targeted at those who would come on in h1b visa and maybe work as a programmer or coder, that sort of thing. that he's trying to block them from coming in. i don't know, i don't think there are a ton of people coming here to work right now. i don't really buy that is the rationale for it. i do think it has more to do with just how spread out within our resources are in terms of money. how much debt we are going into,

how hard it is to support all of these millions and millions and millions of people who have lost their jobs, who have lost their source of income, as we have a new explosion every day. from oil, to the airline industry. i mean, everywhere you look. retail stores going down. there are so many more businesses begging for help, corporations going under, people who can't see their family, people who can't pay their rent. >> harris: right. >> melissa: we can't afford to take on any more burden right now. that's what i think about. >> emily: may make a quick data point please connect >> harris: i want to get to just get real quickly. let me get to jessica, go ahead. >> jessica: i wanted to add that melissa really hit the nail on the head when she said, "i don't know how many people are coming into the country right now." there are not. there are about 400,000 people waiting in line through illegal immigration to come here, and they would be taking those programmer or coding jobs. but they're not traveling here right now. what we see is the president --

in 2016 he won on the immigration issue by scaring people about the celebrity. in 2018 he tried to do the caravan at ms-13. now he sees his poll numbers are not moving, he had a spy, it's back down. his handling of the coronavirus pandemic is underwater. he talked about how he banned travel to china, but we know that over 40,000 people went back and forth from the united states to china after that been done that came into place. he needs to signal to his base with that red meat, which is immigration for them, and say, "i'm going to be talking about this issue, pay attention to me. you might not be happy with what's going on, but i'm going to give you this --" and i hate to say it, but it's kind of thing that reeks of xenophobia. banning immigration, when there are -- it's very dangerous. it's a traditional campaign rhetoric. i do not believe it's about public safety or the economy, quite frankly. >> harris: i'm going to step in, emily. >> melissa: about the people

going back and forth -- >> harris: i want to go back to emily get her in there. >> emily: just a quick data point to round this out. 460,000 people became green card holders last week in 2019, and that was down 13% from 2,018th, to jessica's point, but that was a significant number and that the data point that feeds into those millions unemployed and or stretch-sin system all the way around way around. >> harris: all right. melissa, i heard what you were saying. i think emily may have further that was what she was saying, too. we will wrap it up and move on quickly here. this is happening in georgia. governor brian kemp is running into some opposition over his plan to allow some businesses to reopen this friday. on the list, gyms, hair salons, bowling alleys, a hot debate next that you don't want to miss on whether it's about safety or about politics. >> i announce this on monday, so we can have time to educate the public and the business owners that this is just not handing them the keys back to go back to

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♪ >> melissa: georgia governor brian kemp running into resistance over his decision to allow some businesses to reopen this friday. the mayor of savannah among those pushing back. >> we are social beings. we have stayed apart from each other. we have to do all that we can to assure that we are gradually phasing in, in a very, very defined way. opening up gyms and movie theaters, restaurants, makes it very, very difficult for people to be able to social distance at

this point. >> melissa: in the meantime, on the other side of the debate, more protests against stay-at-home orders breaking out across the country today. in multiple states, really. emily, i want to read to you this one quote from an op-ed that was in usa today. it really hits the nail on the head of an argument that i feel i've been making here every day. they really are two americas. those getting a paycheck from government corporations or universities, and those who are unemployed or seeing their small businesses suffer due to shutdowns. the america that is still getting paid is so far not showing a whole lot of for the america that isn't." to me, i really feel like i've heard from this divide. the people who are still getting paid are very focused on health. which makes sense, i understand that. but those who are watching their finances collapsed, watching the american dream collapse, their business collapsed, wondering how they are going to feed or educate their families, are

really feeling like this has gone too far. what are your thoughts? >> emily: exactly. it's not mutually exclusive to have this economic death in this physical death. that duel america, 12 counties account for about half of all coronavirus debts here in the country. some counties have seen zero deaths. i want to point out an example that illustrates that large attention you mentioned. here in the state i'm in, in washington state, from what i understand washington state is the only state that continues to ban recreational fishing during this time. while a lot of eyes were on michigan this weekend and the protests, here in washington anglers will protesting while maintaining their social distances, while being complian. that was the point they were protesting, that they can maintain that compliance with social quarantine and social distancing while fishing. because here it is a considerable source of food. if an angler is among the

22 million unemployed and has zero income and zero revenue at that moment, and yet has paid insurance and for a boat and permitting and the upkeep and cannot fish for his or her family, that's a problem. the larger problem which continues to evolve here is the governors' inability to listen, here, and amend those guidelines as this entire situation continues to evolve. so the anglers and washingtonians here arguing that the governor is not listening to them, is not easing restrictions, because here, locally, regionally, where it affects them in this way, there's nothing being done about it to reflect your larger point, which is and in consideration of those in the local positions. >> melissa: dr. siegel, her point is such a good one. because the thing we see with these protests are people don't do themselves a favor when they go out and protest, they're not wearing masks, they are right next to each other, they are

coming together, violating social distancing rules. they seem to be demonstrating that they can't go out and conduct themselves in a way that is going to keep this illness at bay. but emily is talking about a group that goes out and is physically making the point, "we can be trusted to do this." what are your thoughts? >> dr. siegel: melissa, i think emily is exactly right, and you are right. we have to look at this on a case-by-case basis, on a state-by-state basis. i still haven't been able to get my motorboat in the water. i talk about it last week. i see plenty of canoes out there, but they aren't letting me put my boat in the water here in new york. to emily's point, let's look at georgia. governor camp in georgia is making this point, at a time when it's over thousand cases in georgia, and the curves looks like this, it's going up and down. it depends on th the day you lok at it. let makes plain what i mean by this, and why am concerned about this. i want rapid testing where the

point that less than 10% are positive so i can really make sure that those out there, that we don't have a lot of asymptomatic cases out there that are going to nail salons, hair salons, that are doing body sculpting, and spreading it without even knowing they have it. having said that, i want to get back to emily's point. i like the idea of jim's openi opening. harris and i are always talking about mental health, how bad people are feeling in a crisis like this. how that leads to so many other medical problems. why not open gyms and do it in a way where you can keep social distancing? you might not be able to do that at the bowling alley. people are using the ball. we have to look at this on a case-by-case basis. >> harris: that's a really good point. >> dr. siegel: it might really help with mental health. but a nail salon, you can't have a nail salon where someone is not right on top of you. >> melissa: meantime, attorney general barr says the justice department might consider taking legal action against states that go too far with their stay-at-home orders.

the nation's top law enforcement argue some orders are coming close to house arrest, and the need for such strict measures may be passing. >> to the extent that governors don't, and impinge on either civil rights or national commerce, our common market that we have here, we will have to impress that. these are very, very burdensome infringements on liberty. we have to remember, we adopted them for the purpose of slowing down the spread. that is bending the curve. >> melissa: emily, what's your thought on that, from a legal perspective? then we'll get jessica in. go ahead. >> emily: there's been a lot of significant reaction to what i thought was straightforward commentary by the attorney general. he was basically stating the law that state governments and police have pretty broad latitude to make decisions during public health emergencies, and that includes stay-at-home orders and quarantine.

however, the legal test, if those things impinge on your constitutional rights, it's whether it's narrowly tailored and whether that law would be the least restrictive way to accomplish that legitimate goal. i also want to point out an interesting thing he cited at the end, which is the clause -- he was saying, "look, these economic decisions, that's interstate commerce. that is federal jurisdiction and federal preview." so he saying they can come in. what he's articulating is exactly the question we should all be asking, and is wide that's the measure of our courts. if our civil liberties and constitutional rights are being trampled on that moment, there has to be a good reason and that has to past a certain test. >> melissa: jessica, what is your response to that? what do you think? >> is just funny to me that i thought republicans were the party of state rights. we had the president a couple weeks ago saying that she quickly backtracked, but he had complete authority over the entire country. we know from the tenth amend that that's not the case, as

andrew cuomo pointed out. now the attorney general is saying that he could potentially get involved in the decisions of states are making. the truth of the matter is that state and local government have a higher approval rating in the handling of the coronavirus pandemic, because they actually know their state. i'm sure if we ask federal officials to name all the counties and every state in the country, they couldn't do it. you know who does know the sinks? republican larry hogan, mike dewine. charlie baker. these are people that are on their political side that are saying, "butt out of this, we know what's going on at home it should be up to us." it feels like gross overreach on the part of the ag. emily is the lawyer, so i'm not pushing back on that. when you have a health crisis that matters down to the local, local level, let the local officials deal with it. >> melissa: and i feel like i know it's best for what's going on in my house and my family, and it should be my decision, on

this very local level. so there you go. the senate passing of a massive coronavirus relief package as it had said the house. there is already another battle brewing on the hill over phase four. >> we've gone so far on the national debt here that the next time we address this issue the senate should be back in session, fully up and running, with everybody involved in the discussion. ♪ i just love hitting the open road and telling people that liberty mutual customizes your insurance, so you only pay for what you need! [squawks] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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>> harris: the senate officially passing that $484 billion coronavirus relief bill, replenishing small business aid programs and adding funding for hospitals and testing. the house is set to take up the bill tomorrow, as speaker pelosi says she is already looking to initiate additional measures.

>> we are passing in a bipartisan spirit, three in the month of march. we are ready to go on to the next one to help our heroes, our health care workers, our firefighters, our first responders, ems. >> harris: ready to go on to that next bill however, senate majority leader mitch mcconnell sput the brakes on face forward. >> i think it's also time to begin to think about the amount of death that we are adding to our country. and the future impact of that. i think we also have seen, with this catastrophic damage to the economy, that until we begin to open up the economy we can't spend enough money to solve the problem. >> harris: jessica, you know, democrats took some heat for not immediately coming to the table and doing deals. there were things coming in and out of this legislation. it would really help the

american people, whether it's phase one, two, 3.5, whatever it is common to see everybody on the same page. how hard is it to accomplish that at this time and leave the politics out of it? >> jessica: apparently way too hard. but democrats are upset with the democrats, even. this isn't just right against left at this point. there are a lot of democrats in washington -- well, they are socially distanced at home right now -- that are disappointed in the outcome from this. we obviously want to get funding for hospitals and for testing, but we need more money for the small business loans. my own father is waiting for his company to be able to get their loan. when these stories come back about ruth's chris steak house getting a big loan, or what happened with shake shack, i know they give it back, but that $10 million should not have gone there in the first place. there plenty of people who need that money a hell of a lot more. this isn't just right left, i think this next bill needs to come faster. we have hundreds of thousands of

people filing for unemployment, people who are not going to make your next rent payment. it's down to the hour. your next meal, remains of americans. >> harris: that's what i don't understand, in terms of just getting it done quickly, why this hasn't happened. of course, there's been another element in all of this, emily, that is really -- i mean, it's disgraceful. melissa and i have been talking about it, the way the legislation for relief was written. but the reporting by cnbc is just eye-popping, that these companies received aid, market values well in excess of $100 million. dmc global, 405 million. wade lifesciences, fiesta restaurant group, so on and so forth. you just heard jessica talking there about shake shack giving its $10 million back. harvard university. i mean, it's not a big business, it's a school, but my goodness, i saw senator sally -- excuse me, martha mcsally from arizona, this morning she

tweeted about the fact, "thanks for my grad degree, can you give that $40 million back, harvard?" that was really complicating in this process, too. >> emily: you are so right, harris. a phrase often used in judicial opinions is that it shocks the conscience. i think all of us are feeling that right now. jessica really made a lot of great points, and i want to point out the role of the banks in this, too. unless you were a mega-bank that could shield this, or a tiny bank with very few customers, frankly everyone in the middle were totally inundated by the applications and they were paralyzed by the underwriting process. as jessica pointed out, those living hour to hour in those businesses, waiting for the influx of money, it's not happening because, in part, they didn't get in on time. they couldn't even get through to an actual human to answer the questions. in terms of the plan, as mitch mcconnell rightly said, more money didn't necessarily help anyone if the doors aren't open. it comes down to the ppp, and

allowable use of funds and timing. both of those do not help small business owners if they inherited unemployment wages from the government to pay a workforce that is sitting at home with zero revenue because their doors aren't open. >> harris: wow. doc siegel, i'm going to come to you on this point. i know we are talking economy and money, but this really flows right into it. so, you finally get the doors open, you get people in the ppp program, they get some support. we are hopeful that happens. i do get people to actually go back? what do you think, in your estimation, has to go coupling with the economy to get people back to all that spending we were doing as a nation in pers person? >> dr. siegel: obviously you're going to have to get the business is to open back up. that the gradual process we've been talking about. i want to talk to don't like about things related to this quickly. the hospitals are going to go under. believe me. without the mris, the cts, elective surgeries, devoted to covid. next point i want to make,

$25 billion worth of partnerships in the states, cdc and nih overseeing testing, it's going to be a cooperative effort. this is a national emergency. of course the feds have to play a role, but it's got to be state-by-state. last point, at the very end of the mcconnell clip they are talking about hazard pay for health care workers can make are you kidding me? they better come up with that. all health care workers across the united states are up in arms over this exact issue. putting their lives at risk, putting themselves on the front lines, often without the right equipment, getting sick, that better be part of the federal government. i understand how much tax money we're talking about, here, but our health care workers need to be getting hazard pay. >> harris: doc siegel, also weighing in. appreciate that, thank you. once they becoming the first in the nation to file a lawsuit against china over its handling of the covid-19 outbreak. will that state prevail? we'll debate it. ♪ it's a new day for veterans all across america.

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government engaged in a campaign of deception and deceit, of misrepresentations and malfeasance. it was a moral imperative for me, as the state's chief legal officer, to hold the chinese government accountable for their actions. >> melissa: the suit follows at least seven federal class action suits filed by public groups, and comes as lawmakers are requesting the trent administration being a case against china to international court of justice. emily, as our legal person on the panel here, i would come to you first. i understand they are suing the communist party. that makes it a little bit easier in terms of not suing another sovereign government. i imagine -- my mind immediately goes to what they're after. are they after financial compensation? that would hinge on being able to, i would guess, seize assets that are already here in the u.s. with that beer the remedy? >> emily: your executive right. there are two reasons why this might actually prevail or at least move along in the chain.

number one, as you just said, they are suing the communist party. also without, not only is that a nonstate actor, that also means there's a ton of assets. yes, essentially, in the case of a break in our favor -- or missouri's favor, in this case -- they would seize those assets. the second thing is the fact that there is a commercial activities exception to that foreign sovereign immunities act law, which means that, look, they are operating the virology lab, they are operating a hospital system, they went from a net exporter of ppe to a net importer, et cetera. both the fact that they are suing a nonstate actor and also that there is that commercial exception is why this suit can probably move along. i want to point out, too, as you mentioned in the intro, this joins a larger movement, a global movement, frankly, to try an old kind done i china accountable. almost like a magnitsky act he did. they went after the money. country by country, everybody started coming on to old russia accountable for that reason, in

the form of seizing assets. and the ag himself said, "i want this to be determined." i don't think it'll be deterrence for china. i don't think they care. but i think it's messaging. money talks. seizing assets would certainly have an impact on the communist party of china. >> melissa: and have an impact on folks here, since money is a lot of what has been cost. in addition, obviously, two lives and health. money is another enormous factor. dr. siegel, is it fair to say that china was responsible and even negligent? >> dr. siegel: i think it's extremely fair. beyond the legal, the medical, there was a camouflaging of information. and i'm not talking entirely about the chinese scientists. mainly the government. chinese scientists were suppressed in terms of releasing information. if you recall, it whistle-blower was forced to sign a document in the middle of the night under police duress that he was not telling the truth when he first

revealed covid-19. that was just the beginning. there was a suppression of information, the world health organization was involved in this. we never knew how infectious are contagious this was. we didn't know that it spread to europe. we had no idea how many people were dying from this in china. we still don't know that. we don't know how many people were hospitalized. we are learning here, in real time, just how severe this virus is. just how it affects all organ systems of the body. we didn't learn that from china, about the blood clotting, the inflammation. this is far worse and far more contagious than we ever expected, and a virus is something that is a worldwide problem. well, the world health organization was calling it regional when it was already a pandemic. when it had already spread to italy. and they were definitely complicit with the chinese government on this. most importantly, the centers for disease control -- under this again last week -- has been begging from january on to go to china and work with their cohorts in china on the ground, boots on the ground, to figure

out what was happening. i also don't believe -- and many scientists agree with me -- that this virus actually started in december or january. we think it started way before this, in the late fall or even earlier, and there was no information about it. this is an international crime that has occurred, here. >> melissa: no doubt it'll play its way until the next election. president trump and joe biden battling over who has been tougher on china, in this next major campaign, is this a big issue for 2020? ♪ it's where i can just kick back and be totally comfortable in my own skin. you know what i'm sayin'? with rocket mortgage® you'll feel as comfortable financing a home as you are living in one rocket mortgage®. push button. get mortgage.® ♪ hey! that's mine. i'll buy you a pony. advanced hydration isn't just for kids. pedialyte helps you hydrate during recovery.

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>> a global crisis. president trump took action, but joe biden attacked trump after the china travel ban. >> xenophobia, and fearmongering. >> for 40 years, joe biden has been wrong about china. >> harris: a pro-trump super pac release that ad, hitting joe biden on china, as president and the presumptive nominee going at it after who's been tougher on the communist regime amid the pandemic. the former vice president with a hard-hitting out of his own. watch. >> i told trump he could insist on having american health experts on the ground in china. >> i would be on the phone with china making it clear, we are going to need to be in your

country. you have to be open. you have to be clear. we have to know what's going on." >> but trump ruled over for the chinese. >> harris: a campaign memo obtained by axios says biden and allies plan to criticize the coronavirus response with a strategy of what they called the four cs. cover up, chaos, corporate favoritism, and caving to lobbyists. jessica, will come to you on this. emit a pandemic, can the public stomach this kind of politics, do you think? >> jessica: only if it relates to health. i've set a number of times i think the vice president does need to be more visible. not necessarily to be hitting the president about china, but so people know there's an election coming up. and this is the guy that's going to be on the other side facing president trump. i frankly think, though, that the china issue only matters as it relates to health at this point. it's been the number one issue of the 2018 midterms, and it'll be even more important.

that's where china's role in all of this matters. frankly, you can take on both sides about this. i was a tremendous fan of president obama and his administration, but foreign policy was in place that i didn't feel was the real strength. i think there's opportunity. >> harris: i remember that. >> jessica: with president trump, certainly in the handling of this virus, and even the china trade deals, for instance. it's almost as if they cancel each other out and people will look at their bank accounts and, frankly, whether they are alive in november. that's how they will make their decision. >> harris: you know it really resonated though? release popped out, i should say. not resonated, but popped out from what he said, joe biden needs to remember there's an election coming up and he's the person on the other side of the tickets. he's run two other times, i don't think anyone would forget its joe biden. we talk about november, it's going to be here around the corner. emily, i'm curious, how does joe biden really break through? he's going with the four cs.

does that get it done? >> emily: he is betting that it will. it wouldn't behoove to him, at the beginning of this pandemic -- he has been behind the scenes, quietly raising money in trying to unify the party. in the public appearances that didn't bode well for his credibility and mental capacity. one is the tough sell that he was not hard on china. to jessica's point, that it's been a conversation topic for the administration. before that, the campaign for quite some time. secondly, ironically, his latest ad was called xenophobic and racist. i think he needs to find a way to unify, potentially, those blue-collar workers that might resonate with the content of the ad and those progressive liberals who are really turned off by it. it is a fine line. it's a battle he's been facing this entire time. really, it's the only unifying factor is just hatred against tk that's going to get them far

enough across the finish line. >> harris: you know, melissa, we have it on the screen right now. those four cs. cover-up, chaos, corporate favoritism, came to lobbyists. maybe the former vice president can come through with facts or whatever he has just try to back that up. but it does feel like, with everything going through right now, that it's kind of like the middle of a conversation he's having with people. when did the start, where's it going, and where is it happening? is it all just on the internet? as a president is scooping up millions of people every day, between 5:00 and 7:00 p.m., to hear about the pandemic? >> melissa: yeah, i don't think very many people are paying attention to what joe biden has to say right now. i think it's a pro-trump vote, or in against trump vote, that's what it's going to come down to. it also comes down to -- at the beginning of the show, jessica was talking about the president's message, maybe some of the people that respond to it being xenophobic. that just reminds people that president trump raised the red flag about china from the very beginning, when joe biden

was mocking him and saying these folks are our friends, they not a threat, with his son is out there doing deals with china. if you believed anything the president said, what you were also easy to foment a racist. but now the exact things he said we shouldn't have been worried about have come home to roost. they did lie, they did scoop up the supplies we needed. they are hanging onto the drug supply chain. all the things he was basically called racist and xenophobic for, it turns out they were true. people will remember that. >> jessica: can i just add really quickly -- >> harris: they didn't act like friends. >> jessica: joe biden's son, i understand the connection to china there, but if were going to talk about people's kids again, ivanka trump has gotten dozen of patents in china since the present has been in office. jared kushner does deals there. >> harris: jessica, i'm going to step in. nobody will have time to rebut that and we got a suit, we are out of time.

more "outnumbered" coming up. i don't add up the years.

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>> melissa: our thanks to dr. marc siegel and the rest of the virtual couch, as we all navigate this time together. we'll be back here at noon eastern tomorrow. "outnumbered overtime" with harris faulkner starts right now. ♪ >> harris: the debate is raging now as the white house takes new action on immigration amid the coronavirus pandemic. you're watching "outnumbered overtime." i'm harris faulkner. president trump says he will sign an executive order today, blocking new green cards for at least 60 days. citing the covid-19 crisis, and historic job losses for americans. here's the president. >> by pausing immigration, we will help put unemployment americans first in line for jobs as america reopens. so important. it would be wro