>> sean: that's all the time we have left this evening. think he was always for being with us. you'll want to tune in monday night. big announcement. hope some people in the mob have a nice weekend. set your dvr, let not your heart be troubled, laura ingraham. >> laura: i have a question. why are you teasing mondays show on thursday night? >> sean: because there's a big announcement. actually there will probably be two big announcements. to be what i have, hannity, are you going to have another pin? junior just going to be pens. you're not even going to see her face. they're just going to be lots of pins going all the way from here. just kidding. >> sean: [laughs] >> laura: i enjoyed pompeo, i love the show tonight. it was awesome. >> sean: you never look spider-man addition 129. >> laura: nobody understands this conversation. and i didn't get anything in the mail. i got nothing from you. i got nothing. i got no pin, i got no turkey fryer you promised me i think

giving. none of that. a member that you might >> sean: turkey fryer, pin, on the way. coming. >> laura: your promising pelosi a freezer that costs $12,000. you promised. >> sean: just two of them! designer ice cream. >> laura: zero about to send san fran gran nan. >> sean: who are mxp when they're there yelling me that i better go. >> sean: do your show. you've been great, thank you. >> laura: i'm laura ingraham, this is "the ingraham angle" from washington tonight. heard big abutments about the effect of sunlight i in and humidity on covid. tonight we hear from an expert with another similar innovation that could get us back to work. simple uv light, indoor light. an important discussion in moments but also, governor andrew cuomo has become

a media favorite due to his coronavirus response, but does he really deserve it? former new york city mayor rudy giuliani is here with his take. and sweden. you know, i wanted to d do the segment for so long, but they've taken international heat for resisting a mandatory shut in lockdown, but what have the actual results been? and are the people they're happier because of its more voluntary deal there. we are going to speak to a journalist inside the country. but first, my thoughts at the end of day 38, america in shutdown. now, remember when trump said this? >> the heat, generally speaking, kills this kind of virus, so that would be a good thing. >> laura: and he got creamed for it. >> one of the things the president has been saying is that by april is the warmer weather comes this may all just magically go away or molecularly go away. >> we've heard of the cdc and fda officials. they are not confident that warm weather is going to rid the

world of this. >> health officials around the globe -- president trump is a new plan. wait for warmer weather. >> laura: oh, the snark, and then today. >> the virus dies the quickest in the presence of direct sunlight under these conditions, and when you look a at the char, look at the aerosol when you breathe it, put it in a room, 70-75 degrees, 20% humidity, low humidity, the half-life is about an hour. but you get outside and it cuts down to a minute and a half. >> laura: by the way, i like that guy at the briefing. he was really cool. i like him from the moment he started speaking. it's great news for all of you being cooped up indoors. is it a complete change of course? know, but it's good news. the power of fresh air and sunshine. we all instantly know that. it's good for a physical and for a mental health. it's pretty obvious. but remember, in this new covid-19 time warp we are all living in, for the presidents enemies, any good news for

america is actually bad new news. >> is it dangerous for you to make people think they would be safe by going outside in the heat considering that so many people are dying in florida? >> the new headline is trump asks people to go outside, it's dangerous. here we go, same old group. >> people turning to these briefings, they want to get information and guidance and want to know what to do. they're not looking for rumors. >> on the president, and your fake news. i'm just here to present talents. i'm here to present ideas because we want ideas to get rid of this thing and if he is good -- heat is good and sunlight is good, that's a great thing as far as i'm concerned. >> laura: if you listen long enough to democrat governors and their poodles in the press these days, you're going to realize that there really is no good news in this covid era. no development positive enough -- positive enough to get them to think that the science or the data is changing to justify reopening the states that really want to open anytime

soon. now think about it, on easter sunday, we knew new york's hospital system, although stretched in a few places, would not be overwhelm overwhelmed. we also knew that governor cuomo's claim or insistence that they would need 40,000 ventilators was off by at least a factor of 6. guarding against the collapse of our health care system was the entire justification for this national shutdown. >> if we don't flatten the curve, how concerned are you? >> well, if you have a really massive increase in cases, there's no country or anybody in the world that's going to be perfectly prepared. if that's the reason why we want to blunt that curve. if you let the curve get up there, then the entire society is going to be hit. >> laura: well, we knew weeks ago that our hospitals would not -- were not going to break under covid, because look now, military hospital shifts are largely empty. emergency hospital tents barely

utilized. no one who is needed in icu bed has been denied one. no one who's needed a ventilator was denied one. this should be celebrated. the trump administration should get some credit for these achievements. we achieved these very important goals in a very challenging time. the curve was flattened, but now that's not good enough. now they tell us we can't go back to our old life until almost a new bureaucracy is created to save us. >> we have to put together a tracing army. this is going to be a massive undertaking. the good news is, mayor michael bloomberg has volunteered to help us develop and implement the tracing program. be one fantastic. bloomberg is in charge? okay, the guy who doesn't think china's president xi is a dictator? i'm going to be shocked -- and i hope i am surprised -- but i'll

be shocked if new york truly opens up, i mean like the old new york before the election. you don't think so? well, that's just the way i see things going. might be wrong, i hope i am wrong. although 26.5 million americans are now out of work, the president's top medical advisors sole focus -- you can't even really blame them, that is their only focus, it's this virus, and today the top guy through shade on the testing issue. the media picked this up and then they threw it in trump's face. >> dr. fauci said that the u.s. is not in a situation where we can say we are where we want to be with regard to testing capacity. they said we need much more testing capacity as well as tests. >> to dr. fauci that were just not there yet. >> i don't agree with that. i think where doing a great job on testing. if he said that i don't agree with him. >> laura: good! i love that, because if we wait

for dr. fauci's seal of approval to reopen america, we may not have in america to reopen. at least not one we recognize. i have my own testing proposal. do you want to hear it? let's start testing the lame data and series that have been shifting ever since this crisis began. first, very confusing, first masks didn't help. now they are required in a lot of states. they do help. first we were told that millions and millions of people could die, then we were told the models that forecasted millions and millions of people could die were bad. then we were told the virus was far more lethal than the flu. that was terrifying. now we know it's likely to be closer to maybe a really aggressive flu season. now, courtesy of anybody studies on both the east and west coast, we see that the virus was circulating t longer than a we thought. that means more people were exposed to it and many of those

have innate immunity to it. >> what we found so far is the statewide number is 13.9% tested positive for having antibodies. it means these are people who were infected and who developed the antibodies to fight the infection. if the infection rate is 13.9%, that would be about .5% death rate. >> laura: that too is certainly better news than we thought and we heard originally about this virus. it certainly though doesn't mean we need to test 300 plus million americans. dr. birx referenced this the other day. we don't need to test 300 plus million americans created a new immunity certificate for work and travel. that summer actually proposing. the bottom line is this; most americans desperately want to get past the shutdown. others want to prolong it, if you can believe it or not, for

political reasons. or maybe to extract a few more policy concessions. the more damage we sustain, the more likely a radical restructuring of america will follow. it's a damocles sword hanging over our heads right now. the longer we stay shutdown, the less likely it is we will recover anytime soon and the more american lives will be lost to things like depression, suicide, addiction, and domestic abuse. and of course the less likely it is that trump will win reelection. does anyone honestly think that the biden campaign actually wants this country to open up anytime soon? i mean, they obvious to prefer him in the basement. fewer missteps, fewer gaffes -- well, most of the time. >> we are here in the basement of my home, which is turned into a television studio. i'm not very familiar with. it was clear to me by that time the president had no sense, no

sense of science, no sense of responsibility and i just want -- it just really worried me -- >> laura: it worries us too, joe. if we don't get this economy going again, that man could become president of the united states. that is far more terrifying than any coronavirus and those are my thoughts at the end of day 38, america in shutdown. all right, my next guest is one of the first doctors to promote another potential treatment as a tool to fight the coronavirus. uv light. he wrote this piece in "the daily caller" last week saying that fighting coronavirus with social distancing and staying home is like fighting an air war without an air force. only bomb shelters. if we want life to get back to normal, we should start installing germicidal ultraviolet light fixtures in public spaces today. joining me now is dr. bruce davidson. pulmonary physician and member

of hhs's advisory council for the elimination of tuberculosis. dr. davidson, i know uv light has been utilized to sanitize surgical settings and even planes, but critics i guess are saying that it's too harmful to use around people, are they right? >> no, they're wrong. uv light has been used for decades. upper room germicidal low dose uv light is quite safe and we installed it in our tb clinic in philadelphia during the 1993 epidemic of drug-resistant tb. cdc recommended it, they updated their recommendations 2005, experts have used it and installed it in african clinics so that we are really tuned up with how to do it quite safely. dose is everything, laura. you can give anything to hide a dose, but low dose uv is quite

safe. >> laura: dr. davidson, there are a lot of credits out there and i think it's only fair to hear from them, let's watch. >> now he's making dangerous claims about uv light. >> uv lamps is not going to protect you from covid-19. i don't want people to think that this is another miracle cure. >> the president just sort of amplified these statements that are without evidence and again, i'm sure people are going to go out now and try to figure out how they can buy uv light. >> laura: dr. davidson, this came up at the white house briefing and a reporter went back for a second time saying basically are you encouraging people, mr. president, to go outside with a band and basically just go out there and flout the current rules -- i'm paraphrasing -- and of course the president said it's just information, we are trying to give information to the people. but you see the snark and the scoffing in the comments we just played. no one is saying it secure all, but what are they not

understanding about what you discovered? >> welcome a medicine is about detail, you know? if someone is diabetic we don't say take insulin. we say take insulin at a certain dose at a certain hour. in uv light has been, as i've mentioned, refined over years. it's been tested in the laboratory, it kills coronavirus is in fluid. it's been tested airborne coronavirus is as i wrote a met caller article, kills them and 16 seconds and it's been used upper room, low dose in public spaces. >> laura: explain that, doctor, upper room. so when you go into a store, for instance. right now even though sweetness open, we are going to talk about this a little later, a lot of the stores are empty even though they don't have any restrictions because people are afraid, they are so afraid of this virus. they're afraid of getting really sick. so what would happen if you go into a store, let's say you had this technology, what would

happen? with a light be installed above? how would that work? >> so i gave an example of a bar restaurant or waiting room that's 40 feet by 80 feet, 8-foot high ceilings. two fixtures, they look like fluorescent lights for $175 each, space them, you put feeling filmic ceiling fans, cheap ones that pull the air up slowly. if you fixtures into an outlet or hardwire them and you have them shining across the upper part of the room where the ceiling is. you install them maybe seven and a half, 8 feet up. that's how it's done. you need to do certain things to spare the people below, but it's that simple and it needs to be monitored. it should be become part of building codes likes microsystems. >> laura: we have to go but again, we're looking for information and solutions that are scalable and understandable

and safe and it seems like there are a lot of people out there who just want to take no for an answer. if they don't ever want to take yes for an answer from it's always -- i know you have to be careful, you have to test things ideally, but a lot of people feel like the country is dying day by day if we don't get this thing opened and got people confident again. but i just think it's fascinating and we wanted you to come on, but thanks so much for joining us tonight. >> you bet, thank you for having me. >> laura: you take care, dr. davidson. we may not be able to unselect him completely, but can we at least be outdoors? again, sunlight, sunshine, fresh air. a new study looking at 318 different covid outbreaks in china found only one of them occurred outdoors and it only involved two people. you're to respond as dr. ben carson, hud secretary and of course brilliant, we love dr. carson. i know this is just one study, but what could mark -- you know, what could more results like this mean for reopening america?

people i think you may have to stay shuddered inside, dr. carson and just, you know, watch netflix and wait for the government to send a check and everything's going to be okay, you're probably not surprised by this study i would imagine. >> not surprised at all. we've always known that sunshine and fresh air is good for you and that just confirms it and of course at the press conference today, byron, who talked about the findings in that heat and that sunlight and that humidity actually were the things that kill the virus. you kind of think of it logically. you take a teaspoon of sauce and you put it in a small container of water, it becomes very salty. you put it in the lake, it hardly makes a difference. if that's what it's like when you go outside and you have things floating around, but you have the ability to disperse them widely.

so you know, i just find the people who don't understand that to be a little bit strange. >> laura: yeah, well, you're putting it very mildly and that's nice because -- you're being charitable. but there does seem to be an effort to discount any positive developments -- anything. even if like a drug is used by d.c., turkey, u.k., every major hospital system, like hydroxychloroquine, as one option, it's like oh, no, that's ridiculous -- even though it's been around. it's applicable. all these doctors from ucla today, dr. carson, messaging saying i can't go on camera, but this is what we've been using since early march because it's worked in a number of -- it's unbelievable! >> that's how we make progress as human beings, being willing to go out and explore and find out -- you know, using our brains to do things in a logical, sensible, and safe way, but we don't just sit there and

wait that's what some people seem to be advocating, that's absolutely the wrong way to do it. there's so many things that have been worked on right now, so many trials that are going on and we should be really thankful that we have an fda and an administration that's willing to explore and for that reason, if this comes back again in the fall, we are going to have a lot more things to fight it with. that's why we have to continue to work. >> laura: i do want to ask about that though, because i have a lot of moms in my circle, young kids and a lot of moms -- they're just -- they're frantically worried their kids aren't going to go back to school in the fall. and i don't know what to tell him. i mean, i don't know what to s say. d.c., maryland, virginia. at the rate they're going, i don't know it's going to happen, but a lot of people are very concerned about the daily dama

damage -- regardless of how many you know government checks that they're able to send. people want to get back to work, dr. carson. >> and i don't blame people for wanting to get back to work, it's just that we have to do it safely. in the way we do that is with a phased approach. we can observe and make sure that things are moving in the direction we want them to admin increase and increase until we get back to full steam ahead. that's the way logical people do things. they don't go around creating hysteria. >> laura: dr. carson, are you worried though when you keep -- it seems like the goalposts keep shifting. we had the shutdown to save the medical system. the medical system was saved. if we had the shutdown to make sure we didn't lose people because they didn't get ventilators, but of course, people did get on ventilators and we were able to save people -- the trump administration did an amazing

job. but the goalpost now is an army of tracers and trackers i needed, 300,000 people. it seems like every time we achieve a metric would go to the next metric. >> well, hopefully those who are logical will learn from these things and will conduct ourselves in a different way and make different recommendations. a lot has been learned through all this that's what we've really got to take away from this and we've got to look at sort of the positive aspect as opposed to negative aspects paired we have some new people who just want to criticize, no matter what happens. why not use some of that intellect to help find solutions, wouldn't that make more sense? >> laura: getting to yes, getting to yes. dr. carson, great to see you, thanks so much for coming on. >> you too, laura. >> laura: one constant in the media coverage of the virus is new york governor andrew cuomo is doing just an incredible job. right, that's the consensus. but what are the facts say? i'm going to show you. former mayor of new york city,

rudy giuliani, will respond next.

♪ >> laura: over the past few weeks, new york governor andrew cuomo has almost been raised up to demigod status. according to "the new york times," he emerged as an authoritative voice in the crisis. abc news said that this was the moment andrew cuomo has prepared for all his life. and there was more. >> you see a spectacular political leader emerging from this in andrew cuomo. >> his governing based on facts, data and science. it is just telling it like it is. >> even lifelong republicans tell me they look at cuomo and they say to god, a leader. >> governor, it is good to remind people that they are just coming to love you know as much as i have my whole life. >> laura: i love that one.

but what are the actual facts? let me just say, and i've said this before on the show, i actually do admire the governo governor's really blunt and no-nonsense approach to fighting for the people of his day. that's what governors are supposed to do. i also got to say i prescient his willingness to put politics aside. he came, he met with the president. i think is trying to work with him for the good of his own state. but when it comes to the actual energy meant, the nitty-gritty management of the crisis, is he really succeeding? let's take a look. trump was pilloried for questioning whether new york really needed 30-40,000 ventilators. well, cuomo, as he remembered, was adamant that his state needed them. but according to the latest estimates from the ihme model, the needs peaked two weeks ago and not 30 or 40,000, but 5,986. what about the hospital beds? cuomo said the state would need

140,000 hospital beds. well, the ihme model now saying that number peaked at 19,836 hospital beds. only seven times less what cuomo said. it was a bad model, i guess. but remember, the feds, they rushed dozens of ventilators to the state after production was ramped up and then u.s. and as comfort was sent to new york city to provide beds. barely used. the army corps of engineers move heaven and earth to turn the javits center into a field -- remember, trump was trumpets will endlessly hit over the head and said like you've got to do this, you got to do this. for those resources though in retrospect have been more useful elsewhere? well, who knows, but it's worth examining. it's worth thinking about this. that leads us to what is perhaps cuomo's most tragic failure. a new york directive that requires nursing homes to readmit elderly residents who have tested positive for the coronavirus.

well, that result has been devastating with over 3,500 nursing homes vitality's. when the media finally got around to asking about this ridiculous policy, governor cuomo was largely in the dark. >> if you are tested positive for the virus or you allow -- are you allowed to be admitted to the nursing home is the question or readmitted? >> that's a good question, i don't know. >> laura: it's refreshing that he didn't try to, you know, just spin it, but he didn't know. that is the vulnerable population here, just ask sweden what they've had to deal with. on acceptable. and why aren't other media outlets alden him accountable either for the early numbers in the projections were off by a factor of 6. i mean, there was -- we raised this issue with dr. fauci, by the way, early in the game. i think it was in mid-march and i said what if these numbers are wrong to fauci and fauci was, well, that would be a problem.

compare what you've heard about cuomo to someone like florida's ron desantis. the "miami herald" told him to act like he gives a damn. it florida's death for 100,000 today is 4. new york's? 81 per 100,000. "the washington post" called kristi noem of south dakota hot spot. well, south dakota's death rate per 100,000, 1. so maybe, just maybe, it's time to stop acting like artisan sounding boards and start taking a -- try to do a little bit more of an evenhanded look at some of their favorite state leaders. again, i think he's been aggressive for the people of his state. that's what a governor should do, but it doesn't mean you're a demigod and never good question. and by the way, that should occlude his appearances with, well, his little brother on cnn. joining me now is rudy giuliani,

former new york city mayor. rudy, i go back to my original question. governor cuomo has had a pretty good ride from the beginning of all of this dealing with a very difficult situation, obviously in new york. but, does he deserve some degree of this praise? >> well, i'm willing to give it to him. and i do get upset about the double standard because i think a lot of other governors have done just as good a job. governor cuomo was head of the biggest problem. if more people died in new york than anyplace else, 40%. he did exactly what i would do if i were the governor. he asked for too much. the president i think deserves a lot more credit than he gets because the president actually handled it wisely. he gave him what he needed. he questioned it, but he gave him what he needed. no one can say that the president didn't give new york everything that it needed to deal with it, even governor cuomo has to say that.

and, i mean, the reality is all of them were guessing. this is -- this is a novel virus, right? new. we didn't know what we were dealing with. someone would make a very wild and crazy projection, you have to feel like you have to buy it. so i think that the governor has done a good job given the political environment. he's made some mistakes, so did i when i dealt with september 11th, but by and large he's done a good job for his state. he fought for us, he got us what we needed. i give the president -- i give the president even more credit because the president was the one -- >> laura: with got to move it forward. let's move it forward. we've got it, let's move the conversation forward because here's the deal, a lot of this right now -- a lot of this right now is political. a lot of the conversation -- you don't want to be political, but any bit of good news in the way this virus is handled by a red state governor, any bit of good

news is immediately discounted, whether it's a therapy that's working for some people, whether it's a uv light that might kill the virus, whether sunshine. i mean, it's all turned around and say well trumped, you don't know this, you just want people to go out in the playground and die tomorrow. i mean, that's where this has gone and all i'm saying about cuomo is, look, yeah, they got more than he needed. we have empty ships an empty field hospitals for the most part. a few people, but not with a thought. okay, but then don't trash ron desantis, don't hit kristi noem and don't go after mitch mcconnell when he says kentuckians don't want to pay for endless handouts when we could reopen the country. >> and don't try to blame donald trump for the coronavirus, blame china, because that's where the blame belongs. and stop defending china, which is outrageous. i mean, stop lying about what happened in china. i mean, this thing goes back to

november at least. china hid it for at least a month and a half. china lied about it. china protected their own people by not letting them leave wuhan and they sent 1.5 million people out of wuhan to come and infect us. >> laura: that's all right, rudy. michael brumberg is going to handle the tracing. army of tracers in new york we learned today. >> that's totally ridiculous. >> laura: army of tracers. >> then we should trace every buddy for cancer. >> laura: army of tracers. >> we should trace a provider for cancer. and obesity and it -- i mean, a lot of things kill you more than covid-19. so we should be traced for all those things. because life is a certain degree of risk and we have to be willing to live with it. >> laura: of new york has to come back. >> the democratic governor, laura. the thing i fault the democratic governors for is trying to keep us closed in and not trying to open us, take some steps towards

opening up businesses. try a few experiments. let's get back to work again because we are ready to go back to work again and we can't be protected forever from everything. >> laura: can't live in a bubble, that doesn't work. rudy, thank you so much, great seeing 2 to you tonight. coming up, we wonder this would happen, democrats are ultimately exploiting the covid crisis to achieve pipe dreams, political pipe dreams, steve forbes, mike huckabee tell us how.

>> laura: were millions of americans see pain and suffering, democrats see an opportunity in the covid crisis. in some of them aren't even trying to hide it. >> am wondering if you see the potential of some others in your party do for a new progressive era if you want to call it that. in national politics or policy. >> absolutely we see this as an opportunity to reshape the way we do business. and how we govern. >> laura: reshape, reimagine, remake. joining me now is steve forbes, chairman and editor in chief of forbes media and mike huckabee, former arkansas governor and fox news contributor. all right, golf, let's start with you. jim clyburn framed the timing of the pandemic that's now killed over 47,000 americans as a "tremendous opportunity." your thoughts? >> that's stunning that someone would see this as an opportunity

rather than an incredible burden over the now 26 million americans who are out of work. but it's also an opportunity for america to decide that they want these policies to take individualism and turn it into collectivism. do they really want more government, not less, and do they want government to be more localized, or do they want some distant federal government taking over every aspect of their lives, telling them to go home, stay put, don't mow your lawn, don't plant a garden, don't go breathe fresh air, or get sunshine. it's a real choice all right, i just don't think the american people are stupid enough to want the choice the democrats are going to give them. >> laura: steve, one thing that we keep seeing, and i think you talked about this last time you were on, are these shifting goalposts. like we can reopen one way flatten the curve and health care is not -- or we can reopen when we have all the ventilators we need. we can reopen when -- now we need an army of tracers and trackers according to

andrew cuomo, that a fairly michael bloomberg is going to oversee. i mean, how realistic is any of that and why do they keep moving the goal posts? >> they keep moving the goal posts because emergency means more federal control, more government control of our lives. you see it in the federal reserve, not going to be controlling trillions of dollars in capital. you see it in proposals to have the government have more governance of corporations, which is a form of socialism without having to take over the company. you see it in federal control of voting. if you see it in the apps where they're going to track our movements and so they keep moving the goalposts, they won't stop until donald trump admits he's wrong and becomes a democrat, which is not want to happen, and that's why the selection is so important. we want an economy that's free, that made america strong, which we see now with the private sector. volunteers are doing, or do we want an economy like europe which is stagnant? europe is like u.s. growth rates for normal times over 40 years because they've gone in the direction of high taxation, regulation. we try to push in the opposite

direction, freedom works. that's with the selection will be about. >> laura: and governor huckabee, we keep hearing about, we have to defeat the virus, we have to defeat the virus and then we can go back to normal, but what are your -- what do our founders think about the essential nature of freedom? very few people are talking about civil liberties or freedom. they say oh, no, those can come later. is that really the case when you see such a massive intrusion upon every aspect of american life in the absence of data or changing data or shifting data? >> well, and letting the decisions be made by a handful of people were never elected by anybody. look, i take this all seriously, i truly do. the virus is a real threat, we get it, but at the same time, it's a bigger threat to lose our way of life, our prosperity, our government, our constitutional freedoms and rights. these are precious in america

was made great because people took risk. there are certain levels of risk that we all have to take, whether it's walking across the street in new york city or whether it's perhaps being exposed to some germ or virus that might make us sick and could even kill us. just that's life. >> laura: loss of life is unfortunately a part of life and we mourn every person who lost their life in this horrific virus, but man, i'm hearing from a lot of people who feel like they're losing their lives bit by bit every day now. gentlemen, thank you so much. and coming up, the left has fallen out of love with sweden, can you believe it? and it's all because of the way they responded to the coronavirus. we are going to explain it next. '. they're our parents... our brothers and sisters. and our children. but now, they are more than that. they are forever our heroes, too. at prudential, we're fortunate to know and serve them. and we're grateful to the heroic men and women

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♪ >> laura: sweden was once praised by the left for its

lavish welfare state, but the times, well, they're changing. unlike the rest of europe, sweden has not imposed a full lockdown. instead, they're trying to keep their hospitals from being overrun with minimal interventions to protect the vulnerable and encouraging individual responsibility. so the primary schools of younger kids, they got to stay in school, nonessential businesses, churches, still open. but somehow, this is really, really upsetting to certain cable hosts. >> it's very appealing, right? in an ideological sense that sweden decided we don't need to lock everything down, let's keep it all loose. but it turns out the virus doesn't care how cool that sounds. where the rest of us live and die on this planet, sweden's let's not lock anything down approach has actually been pretty disastrous. it's been pretty lethal. >> laura: it always depends on how you lay that chart out, by the way. you can make those lines look a lot different depending on what the vertical and horizontal is,

but what's the truth? the death rate in sweden is about 198 per million. so it's doing worth, course in denmark, norway and finland. one reason is the virus swept through swedish nursing homes, elder homes in the way sweden counts debts may also be a factor, but what happens when you compare sweden to the rest of europe? as you can see here, belgium, spain, italy, france and the u.k. are all seeing far more deaths per capita despite imposing very strict stay-at-home orders. while, the truth is we don't really know how the swedish approach will shake out yet, but it's foolish to simply dismiss it outright. answering these questions now where joined by norberg, a proud resident of sweden, senior fellow at the cato institute. what are critics missing about sweden's overall approach here? >> well, i think exactly what you pointed to is something that they're missing. that sweden is an outlier work comes to policy because we

haven't locked the society down, but we are not an outlier when it comes to outcomes. so that tells you something about how people are misinterpreted what's going on in the world, what they're also missing is i think that sweden is a powerhouse when it comes to statistics. because we have by tradition a very nosy government that wants to know who's being naughty and who's being nice, what we are doing, and that might be bad in some circumstances, but the good thing is that we know very well who is alive and who's dead. so whereas many countries, they don't count deaths outside of hospitals, covid-19 deaths, they don't count deaths at home, or in nursing homes and so on, whereas sweden attracts every death, no matter where they took place. we all have the personal i.d. number. we have to show an i.d. card every time we meet the doctor. so i think that we catch more of the deaths than other countries do. >> laura: johan, i guess

there's an epidemiologist who was asked a question about this severity of the disease there. watch. >> you don't think that the severity of these intervening measures are going to make that much difference. >> no. i don't think so. what we've seen is a tsunami of a usually quiet disease. sweeping over europe in some countries do this and some countries do that in some countries don't do that and in the end there is a difference. >> laura: in the end there will be very little difference. i love the kind of swedish dismissal, dismissiveness. i know a lot of swedish men of that age that have that same -- it's kind of appealing. but he said in the end of the diseases going to do with the disease is going to do and now we found out, johan, that herd immunity will be reached in about two or three weeks perhaps in sweden, which -- then they

are kind of dawn after the herd immunity, correct? >> yeah, we hope so. that's why we shouldn't pay too much attention to comparisons of cases and deaths right now, because almost every other country except sweden has just postponed deaths. they won't avoid them because there's still no argument that has to be made that some of the disease will go away after their lockdowns are over. and if they're waiting for a vaccine, i mean, that could take a year, if we're lucky, it could take several years. no society can be shut down completely and checked on the economy for more than a year without ruining society and the economy entirely. that would kill many more people than the virus does. so with some luck, sweden will get through this. in a couple of months. while protecting those vulnerable and protecting health care, and that's the essential thing. can we manage to mitigate the

disease -- we can't suppress it, but can we mitigate it to the extent that we can take care of all the cases and make sure that it gets the best treatment? in that case, sweden might be through this in a couple of months while you have it ahead of you. >> laura: it's been fascinating to watch. sweden has always held up at ths the example. everyone tries to amulet sweden but until sweden decides to go its own way. i find it fascinating. great to see you tonight. coming up, what happens when someone on the left thanks president trump? welcome the democrat's end playing dirty. we have exclusive new video for you up next.

>> had you not brought this to the forefront of hq of being able to put this out here, i wouldn't be here today to have this conversation with you. thank you for everything that you have done. speak to remember been michigan state karen who was ono weeks ago and president trump's push for hydroxychloroquine saved her life after she contracted the virus. now, she is paying a political price because she filmed this exclusive video. remember, she's a democrat for the "the ingraham angle" dirty politics from her own party. >> i got the news that simply thanking the president of the united states for taking care of me and ensuring that i had the quality health care that i with

hydroxychloroquine. a simple thank you has gotten me censored. can you believe that? i thought i had first amendment rights, but i guess i don't. the democratic party is showing me that i don't. speak to karen, it is reprehensible. unbelievable. shameful, disgusting. that is all the time we have, tonight, shannon. >> shannon: a lot of breaking news, laura, thank you so much. we began, with a fox news alert. the bipartisan coronavirus released film headed to the president's desk. the house overwhelmingly passed $84 billion package aimed to get more money to struggling small businesses to hospitals and widely experienced testing. breaking news on advancement to find a vaccine on the same day new research shows that sun and heat may weaken the virus when it's out in the open appeared we will hear from fda commissioner and task force member stephen hahn who joins us in minutes