enormous help in the darkest hour of need. we should see that shortly. >> ed: there was a lot of news out of our interview with kevin hassett. i saw the wires crossing operators and others. these are big numbers, a lot happening at the white house. >> sandra: thanks for joining us, everybody. "outnumbered" starts right now. >> harris: we begin without fox news alert. because we are awaiting remarks from president trump, we know that he has just wrapped a meeting with new jersey governor phil murphy in the oval office. we'll get that live video out for you and bring it to you at any moment. all of this, as the white house white house's social distancing guidelines are set to expire today. president trump has also signaled there are no plans to extend them. >> president trump: i think they'll be fading out, because now the governors are doing it. i've had many calls from governors, the governor of texas, greg abbott, many

governors. tennessee, arkansas. we are speaking to a lot of different people. they are explaining what they are doing. i am very much in favor of what they're doing. they're getting it going. we are opening our country aga again. >> harris: we have just been given a one minute warning before we can go and watch the president with the governor of new jersey, a governor who has been looking at the second highest number confirmed cases and deaths only to the state of new york. we know that in recent days president trump has met with governor cuomo of new york, and now governor murphy. a couple of things, of course, are popping today. dr. fauci yesterday saying a second wave is coming of coronavirus. we want to be ready. that, coupled with the challenges of reopening some economies around the united states, are no doubt part of the discussions today between

this governor and this president. the other thing that has popped, of course, we are now at more than 61,000 deaths, lives lost, in this crisis. today, from coronavirus. the president. >> reporter: mr. president, your economic advisor, kevin hassett, said this morning the unemployment rate could be around 19%. numbers we haven't seen since the great depression. what is your plan to get the country out of this ditch? >> president trump: i think we will have a great third quarter. it's going to be a transition. when i say "great," i think the transition is going be really terrific. we'll take it into the fourth, and i think will potentially have a great fourth quarter. there is tremendous pent-up demand. i don't know if kevin said that, or larry kudlow. but they see it. i feel it. i feel it. i think sometimes what i feel is better than what i think. unfortunately or fortunately, phil. i'll tell you what, i feel it. i think next year is going to be a spectacular year in terms of

growth, in terms of bringing our country back. i think we are going to have a really good year. we want to be where everywhere, and i think we can actually surpass where we were. we are the strongest anywhere in the world. the best that we ever wear. but we have the strongest anywhere in the world. i view what we have now as, obviously. a period of, here we are. it is what it is. we just got hit by a vicious virus that should never have been allowed to escape china. they should have stopped it at the source. they didn't do that. 184 countries have been devastated by it, including china, by the way. because i looked at their numbers, and their numbers are terrible. it's just a very tough situation for the people of our country. all the loss, the death. it's a terrible thing. but i think we're going to make a very strong comeback. it'll start with the third quarter. i think you will see some pretty good numbers. i think you're going to see a really good transition of numbers. but the fourth quarter, i really believe it's going be terrific

and next you will be a terrific year. >> reporter: is it fair for the voters to take into consideration your handling of the pandemic when they assess whether to reelect you in the fall? >> president trump: sure, i think they have to do a number of things. they do have to do that, and maybe focus on that. i think i've handled it -- not me, i think our whole group has been spectacular. we had ventilators, we didn't have any. we built them. we have thousands, tens of thousands are right now under construction. with as phil said, i think you've got more ventilators than anyone in the united states. there was never a person that needed a ventilator that didn't get one. that one person. so we didn't say, "he didn't get a ventilator, somebody passed away, somebody didn't make it." now we had a mask problem. now we have so many masks, we don't know what to do with them. we had a big problem. you have to understand, we took over. the cupboards were bare. we have the king of ventilators,

but what we have done is come on testing, we are doing numbers the likes of which nobody has ever seen before. i'll tell you, the president of south korea, president moon called me to congratulate me on testing. and we did more tests than any other country, anywhere in the world. i think they told me yesterday, you add up the rest of the world, we've done more testing. and it's a higher quality test. so, i think the whole team, the federal government, we built hospitals for you and others, we build medical centers. and thousands of thousands of beds, many medical centers. as you know, we had the governor of florida and the governor of louisiana over the last two days. they could not have been -- one was a democrat, and this gentleman happens to be a proud democrat. they could not have been more supportive of the effort of the federal government. i'll tell you, let me just tell you, we started off with empty

cupboards. the last administration left us nothing. we started off with bad, broken tests and obsolete tests. what we've come up with between abbott laboratories, we have the dash did they test you today >> they did, i'm negative. speedy dome i >> president trump: he did the five minute -- >> the quick turnaround. i feel like a new man. >> president trump: you know what? that's a brand-new test. it didn't exist eight weeks go. how is the rage, everybody wants that test. i think we've done a really great job. >> reporter: the obama administration, people from the obama administration would disagree on your assessment that the cupboards were bare. they said there was a good mid -- >> president trump: let me just say -- >> reporter: you said broken tests. it's a new virus, so how could the tests be broken? >> president trump: jim, we had broken tests. tests that were obsolete, that didn't take care of people. here's what's very important. if you take a look at the swine

flu, h1n1, or as joe biden would say, n1h1 -- that's wrong, he didn't even know the name. h1n1, the swine flu, the obama administration was a disaster. they did polling on how they did, and the polls were so negative, so bad. they did a very poor job. they did a poor job on a lot of things. they did a poor job on our military, under ammunition. we had no ammunition, just like we had no ammunition we had very little medical. when you ask, "how did we do commit" i have to say it, because the news is so fake and so corrupt. i think we did a spectacular job. i'm not even referring to me, i'm referring to all of these people, including were people who have been working with my people so closely. >> you bet. >> president trump: but the federal government has done a spectacular job. to a point where we are building now -- we are going to have thousands and thousands of ventilators, and we are helping

other countries. phil doesn't need ventilators. you needed them very badly in the beginning. >> we did. >> president trump: maybe you can say something to jim's question. >> i don't have a view on the history, but he will say this. our need, whether it was ventilators or the army corps building capacity, fema with our testing sites, and a big part of our ability to reopen as fast as we all want to is to rapidly expand testing. >> president trump: right. >> you all, literally, in the here and now this week, for helping us in a big way to at least -- i would expect by the end of may, thanks to you and your team's help, will be at least more than double our testing capabilities. because of that, that will allow us to much more aggressively and responsibly do the reopening that we all need to do. >> president trump: phil, how did we do on ventilators, as an example? you needed them badly. >> we got them. there's no other way to put it. i am told that we were the

number one state recipient of ventilators. this was -- we were at the edge. this is life or death stuff. we got them, and we are forever thankful for that. >> reporter: mr. president, on the vaccine operation warp speed, who is in charge of that? are you overpromising when you say you are going to have 300 million doses of vaccine? >> president trump: i'm not overpromising. i don't know who said it, but whatever the maximum is, whatever you can humanly do, we're going to have. and we hope you're going to come up with a good vaccine. johnson & johnson, oxford, lots of different great companies, representatives of our country in some ways. nih is working very hard and doing a terrific job. no, i hope you're going to have a vaccine, and we are going too fast-track it like you've never been seen before. if we come up with the vaccine. i think they probably will. >> reporter: who is in charge of that operation warp speed? >> president trump: you know is in charge of it, honestly can

make i am. i'll tell you, i'm really in charge of it. i could say somebody else, i will say we are dealing with, as you know, the general and the admiral. we are very much in charge. i think probably more than anything i am in charge. i'm the one that gets blamed, i get blamed anyway. don't forget, if we come up with a vaccine in record time, they'll say i should have done it faster. we have a lot of good possibilities. like gilead yesterday, that was a big thing. as explained, and i think very importantly, there was a step. a big step, 31% step. but the step means, i guess, deborah, tony yesterday was explaining, the step means you take another step and all of the sudden you're up to 50%, 60%, 70%. that was a big step, as i understand it. >> reporter: mr. president? >> president trump: go ahead, please. >> reporter: thank you, sir. the intelligence agencies today said they agree with the scientific community that the

virus did originate in china but was not man-made, it was not genetically modified. do you agree with that? >> president trump: i haven't seen the report yet, but i will tell you, if you speak to the head of intelligence right now, if you speak to the head, they did say i was given a briefing when i said i was given it, not before. and they also said it wasn't specific, and it was not a panic briefing it wasn't like, "oh, we're going to be invaded." it was in later january. i think what you will do is you'll speak to them. in fact, i will ask mark to make a report to you. because the news was totally as usual, fake and corrupt. intelligence is doing the report. the report turned out to be exactly as i said. >> reporter: mr. president, you are saying you got a briefing in january about -- >> president trump: no, i'm not saying that. you didn't hear me. i said intelligence is saying it. they are to give a report, and

it will make you very unhappy. because it makes you so wrong. you, in particular. all right, go ahead. behind you, please. >> reporter: governor, states received the first carries act. what are you going to need now to get back on your feet? want to be told the president on that front? and how do you address republican complaints that the federal government should not be bailing out states who were badly-managed prior to the pandemic? >> i've been in office going on two and a half years, and i got elected to sort of fix the economy. we made a lot of progress on what i would call the legacy issues. record pension payments, stabilizing indebtedness, record surpluses. as mike tyson says, everyone's got a plan until you get punched in the face. >> president trump: and we did. >> and we did. we've got a plan, and we are comfortable with the progress. it's going to take a while, all the legacy stuff. the financial assistance we need

-- and we need a significant amount, this is a big hit. new jersey alone, could be 20-$30 billion. but this is to allow us to keep firefighters, teachers, police, ems, on the payroll serving the communities in their hour of need. that's something we feel strongly about. we don't see it as a bailout. we see this as a partnership, doing the right thing and what is the worst health care crisis in the history of our nation. i want to, again, thank you president for his extreme your spirit ship of partnership across the whole spectrum. i want to reiterate that. >> president trump: you're talking to the states, what you call a bailout, a lot of the money. a lot of it's being used long before you were there. you can't have a better representative than this man, that i can tell you. plus, he's an an old goldman sachs guy. but they don't know about him, he's done a great job. but he went through a big operation just before this happened. that's a hell of a thing.

that's a big deal. report about mr. president, are you worried about the food supply chain? >> president trump: not at all. we solved that problem. yesterday -- i expect to see the supply chain as strong as ever. may be stronger, for certain reasons. we did something, we had a roadblock. it was a legal roadblock, more than anything else. it was a foolish thing that nobody ever took care of, for a long time. we took care of it. no, i expect things to go very smoothly. report of xo people should be wary -- >> president trump: not even remotely. have a lab supply, nothing will get it. that was solved yesterday. very late in the evening. >> reporter: mr. president, at what point do people that don might need another check if employer does not 20%? >> president trump: a lot of people are talking about it, but we've given a lot of stimulus. it's so great, i'm so happy new year opening up parks and things. this is the big step for new jersey.

i think you're going to see something that is going to surprise maybe the world. you know, we are the leader of the world. we are ready don micro the leader of the world. we've done better. if you look at our deaths, mortality rates, in fact, i'm going to get a chart. it's maybe the most impressive thing. it's a tribute to the federal government at all of us working together. i would love you to get that if you could. i think you are going to see economic numbers that are going to be fantastic. i believe very strongly, and you are going to start to see it with the transition period, which is number three, and quarter 4 you will have tremendous numbers. i think next year you're going to really have tremendous numbers. >> reporter: mr. president, can i ask you about general flynn? >> president trump: yeah.

>> reporter: are you going to pardon him? this is what you tweeted back and does every 2017. "i had to fire general flynn because he lied to the vice president and the fbi." do you still believe he lied to the vice president and the fbi? >> president trump: when i look at what they did to him, they tormented him. dirty cops tormented general flynn. general flynn is a fine man, 35 years or so in the military. you don't get to be where he is by being bad. that, i can tell you. and then, right at the beginning of the administration, the dirty cops came in. you see the notes, jim. whether you're on our side, that side, whatever. i assume, let's all talk about fairness, what they did general flynn -- by the way, to roger stone, and others -- was a disaster and a disgrace. it should never be able to happen in this country again. what i really hoped, because cnn tormented him, in all fairness. i really hope to see, because they haven't been doing it, and

i appreciate your question. i hope to see that cnn will -- not even apologize, which they should, but just cover it fairly. because he is in the process of being exonerated. if you look at those notes from yesterday, that was total exoneration. these were dirty, filthy cops at the top of the fbi. you know their names better than i do. they were dishonest people. now we have to see what's going to happen. the general flynn was treated like nobody should -- and i'm not talking about generals, i'm saying like nobody in this country should be treated -- they did it right at the beginning. they did it right -- jim, they did it right -- look at what they did to the guy. i mean, he couldn't have known too much of what was happening. they came at him with 15 buses, and he is standing in the middle of the highway. what they did to this man, they tormented him. they destroyed him. but he's going to come back. like i said, he's going to come

back bigger and better. but what they did to him -- and i hear there's a lot of other stuff coming, if i believe everything i'm reading. because i like to stay out of it. i don't have to stay out of it at all, but i like to stay out of it. jim, what they did to him is terrible. i hope that cnn is going to give them a fair shake and cover it. because i think it's very important. >> reporter: just to follow up, was it a mistake to fire him? would you bring them back on? >> president trump: i wish i had. it was all the information, they were out to get him. they were trying to force him to lie. you see the written statements, where they were trying to force them into position where we can get him in a lied. can we get them this way, that way? this is terrible. this is like what happened -- i'm not going any in the countries, because we deal with these countries, okay? but what happened in other countries, not the usa. what they did to general flynn, and others, is a disgrace. and i hope -- really, i hope

your networks are going to cover it. i've seen where it's the biggest story in the worldly or go. "flynn, flynn." and he is essentially exonerated. that's not official yet, but when you you're dumb i read the notes, how could you do anything else? i hear there's much more coming out. i think it would be so good for cnn if you covered it honestly great if you report it honestly. it would be so good for the network. with that, thank you all very much. thank you very much. thank you. >> harris: the president of the united states they are alongside members of his task force, obviously. and the governor of new jersey, phil murphy, talking about a wide range of things, the president. and those two men, we learned a bit about them. they've known each other for a long time. he mentioned governor murphy had been at goldman sachs and their

connections there. governor murphy think the president forgetting ventilators. i said, "we were on the edge. it was a life-and-death situation, and we got them right as we needed them. we are forever grateful for that." governor murphy, to the president. the president also saying that we are where we are, it is what it is. the virus should never have been allowed to escape china." he spent a moment on that. we know there are investigations going on right now through our federal government to see where this may have all begun, with what we know and we don't know from china. the president did bring that up. i want to also hit one point. something was happening simultaneously to what we are bringing you. obviously the oval office, we are going to watch out together, and we did. at the same time, governor cuomo of new york was holding a briefing. he invited the former nyc mayor, mike bloomberg, to that briefing, obviously virtually. and they are going to be shutting down the subway system

overnight. the subway system in new york has become something untenable, with crowds of people and also just health scares with coronavirus. what they're going to do is, in overnight hours, they will shut that down. it was just a little burst of news from a news conference. let's bring everybody in on "outnumbered" today. a very busy thursday already. governor huckabee, i will start with you. you know, the president meeting now pretty regularly in the oval office. he's done it several times, with governors. what does this accomplish? why do you think it's helpful? >> mr. huckabee: well, first of all, let's note he's meeting with governors regardless of their political party. he met with john bel edwards, he's met with governor cuomo, he's had lengthy conversations with gavin newsom of california. today, with phil murphy of new jersey. the president is acting like a president is supposed to. he's giving the think governors need to reopen their states. or, in some places, maybe keep their states closed. what he's doing is respecting

the tenth amendment. if the federal government doesn't give him the power to just do something unilaterally, he respects it and the states get to do that. that is exactly what the president should be doing, and i really appreciate that, from having been a governor. having my own tussles with federal authorities before. what the president is doing is saying, "what do you need, how can we help?" but also, "you make your decisions, roll your own boat. if the boat sinks, everyone knows he made those decisions." >> harris: i thought it was interesting, dr. saphier, at ond at governor murphy and said, "did you get tested today?" and governor murphy said, "yes, i feel like a brand-new man." they used a five minute results test on governor murphy, and that is out there. maybe you could bring us up to speed a little bit on what those options are and where they are. if it becomes more widespread, that certainly is a lot faster than what we've been seeing. >> dr. saphier: that's right,

harris. the truth is that there are a wide variety of different testing systems available right now in new jersey, where i am, were obviously governor murphy is from, as well. we have several options in terms of testing, including what came out of rutgers, which is that saliva test. all the sudden you don't have to get that nasal swab. new jersey especially has a lot of options for different testing. some testing still does take a few days, some testing is about 24 hours. but it sounds like the governor was able to access one of the rapid testing. but we shouldn't all expect to have that rapid testing, because those are still few and far between. but i do think at some point those will be the new normal. if you think about it, when you bring your kids to the pediatrician and they test them for strep throat or the flu, those are those rapid tests. i do imagine that, in the new feature, the majority of the testing being done will be those rapid tests. >> harris: at one point the president said the president of south korea had called him to congratulate him on the testing.

he was talking about the efficacy of it all. i do want to spend too much time on that. we just heard from dr. saphier, the specificity about the testing. but it is interesting that we seem to be moving forward on what issue. the next might be states and where they are. a few steps forward, a few steps back. gavin newsom closing all the beaches in his state. >> marie: and governor murphy said they still do need more tests before they can really aggressively reopen in the way that all of us want to be able to. so, harris, we will see in some of the states every open parts of their economy, these are test cases. we will see, as people are actually on their own during the social distancing, if they are being responsible. and if there is, in fact, a second wave as dr. fauci has talked about. i also thought it was interesting that president trump proactively mentioned an intelligence briefing he had gotten in january. i think you're going to hear people, as we look back at what we knew and when, where this virus came from, as you

mentioned we know there's an investigation into that right now. you will hear calls -- and i think these at the right calls -- for declassification of his much is this is possible. what did the administration know in january? which we know now about where this came from in china, what the trains were doing. it's interesting the president leaned into the fact that in january he did get a briefing. i think you'll hear more about that in the coming days. >> harris: well, he put that travel ban in place, so he must have gotten something. we figured that much, right? melissa, i want to drill down a little bit. not to be come to new york, but we do look to each of the states and cities where they've had tops of cases and elimination in cases and deaths. how surprised are you that they are going to shut down, overnight, the subway system, and arguably the biggest transit in the country?

>> melissa: i'm surprised it's taken this long. i personally have been screaming and shouting and tweeting and on the help lines and on where they say, "to eat us the pictures," this, that, and the other. we've done what we can to make them focus on this very real and huge health hazard. it's been hazard to our medical workers who ride the subway, to anyone down there, to the mta workers and the homeless themselves have moved on to the subways during this crisis. it is emblematic of things that are happening in big cities all around the country. in california they've done a much better job. they accessed fema money early on to move the homeless population into hotels, where they would be safer. everybody would be safer. that was an option that was always available in new york, and i have no idea why, rather than making videos about drinking bleach or not drinking bleach, our mayor did not pick up the phone and work on that. i'm thrilled that something is finally happening, because it's

a terrible situation and none of us can get back to work and back to normal until this is dealt with here in new york. so it's been a long awaited announcement, but i'm glad they are finally doing something about it. >> harris: yeah. you mention something i've been checking on, and i'll check on it again with new york. that's almost population. you know, for people who may not know, the hours are going to be 1:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. as you're telling us, that's critical. people are not necessarily using this platforms for travel. they are using them to sleep and to live, because they have no other places to go. we'll move on. new numbers are showing the devastating impact of coronavirus shutdowns on american workers. jobless claims are headed now toward depression-era levels. we'll break down the statistics, as the new numbers come out, next.

i'm jo ann jenkins with aarp. the coronavirus continues to affect us all, and we are here,

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for you and your family. they're our neighbors, and our friends. but now, they are forever our heroes, too. and while they're working to keep us safe, prudential is proud to provide over one million health care workers with benefits that help bring peace of mind in times like these. >> melissa: nearly 4 million more americans applying for an appointment benefits last week, bringing the total to more than 30 million people since the middle of last month. the worst string of job losses on record. that is more people than live in new york and chicago metropolitan areas combined. governor, i will start with you. what do you think is the right way to turn this around? what are the steps that we should be taking right now? >> mr. huckabee: i think the most important thing is to start

letting the economy open up. the local officials believe that it's prudent to do so. people have to remember, we are taxpaying adults. adults. that means we've got some brains around us, and we ought to be able to make some decisions. we are not children. the federal government can't sit in washington and unilaterally say that everyone in the country has to obey some directive. then we are no longer willing to say, "why are we doing this?" and have the government say, "because we said so," and accept that. we want to know paid what is the data, what are the facts? what are the risks? i think right now we are seeing a lot of states and goat dominic local government saying, "we've got to get people to work." federal pay checks and supplement checks are fine for a temporary solution. they are not permanent. they can't be. people need to go to work and put food on the table that they've earned by their own labor.

>> melissa: marie, i wonder, of the negative externalities of some of these programs that are needed and meant to do good, but then you hear about business owners who are saying that they can't get people to come back to work, because the enhanced unemployment package pays better than their job. so, it pays more to stay at home through the summer than it does to go back to work. some businesses are having a really hard time getting people to come in and reopen. of course, you need that unemployment support, as well, for people who can't work and can't get back. how do you balance those things? >> marie: these are really tough questions, melissa. we are really navigating this in real time. we have to -- of course we want people to get back to work, but we want them to get back to work safely. we have to follow the data and be willing to change course if we see a place that maybe reopened too early and people are getting sick, and maybe we can't open other things at that moment. we also heard from some employers that workers are, quite frankly, scared to come back to work. that they don't have masks of their own, they don't have

gloves. there aren't enough tests still in many places, including even where i am in washington, d.c. when the economy opens, there are employers who have employees who are scared to come back, because there aren't enough tests and they think it's happening too quickly. i know president trump, he's not really the empathize or in chief, necessarily. it's not his town. i want to hear more from him, both about the 61,000 dead americans and also 19% unemployment. i wanted to talk about that more and talk about the struggle people are going through, not just lash out at the media or china or whoever. >> melissa: okay. well, dr. saphier, i do think we printed town from the president about how people want to get back to work and back to their lives. he has been really pushing, that the economic struggles incredibly hard on people's psyche, on everything that goes on in the home. to marie's points on the test,

that is really about local areas. i said yesterday, i was in line to get to test myself. the woman in front of me owned a restaurant, she had all of her employees there with her on line and she was taking them in and paying for them to get tested and get the antibody tests so they could know where they were and feel good about how vulnerable they are coming back to work and how safe it is for them to serve her customers. is that kind of where we need to go, that you see these business owners saying, "where is there a test in my community oh, it's not every urgent care center in new york city. let me get online with my staff." >> dr. saphier: i believe the trevor administration has been very transparent in terms of making a priority to control the spread of the virus, what they're doing for that, and also what they're doing for the subsequent economic fallout. the bottom line is we didn't know a lot about the virus six weeks ago, two months ago. which is why i supported all the state of orders and all those restrictive moves we did.

because we didn't know much about it. we do need to do now is use the knowledge that we have about the virus. we know the elderly and those with chronic illnesses are more vulnerable to the virus. we need to stratify the risks to get you back to work. even open up nonessential businesses safely. as mary mentioned, we have to make sure that not all of the employees are feeling able and safe enough to go back to work, but their employees are being provided ppe and certain ways they can keep each other safe. whether that's going to be through antibody testing, i'm not sure. bottom line is they have to still have some social distance measures, and they still need to be available to get testing if someone does become sick, and the ability to contact-trace. unless they have implemented something such as that to do that, it's going to be hard to get some of these businesses to reopen. the bottom line is that state legislators can incentivize employers to negotiate and get testing available for their employees, as well as incentivize individuals to

actually sign up for some of those contact tracing apps. if people do that, we can absolutely start opening up businesses sooner. >> melissa: yeah. all right, this sunday at 7:00 p.m. eastern, bret baier and martha maccallum will incur "america together: returning to work." i can't wait for that, i'd like to be part of that. a virtual town hall with president trump. submit your video questions for the president to the email address on the screen. take a video, send it to "town hall at foxnews.com, or log onto the facebook or instagram pages. make sure your questions are in video. they are going to play you for the or what don michael world. you might get an answer from the president himself. next on "outnumbered," outrage after newly-released documents raise questions about the fbi's investigation of former national security advisor michael flynn, and whether their goal all along was to set him up. as president trump says he

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>> harris: general michael flynn's attorneys and supporters are calling it "a smoking gun." newly unsealed documents raise questions about the fbi's motivations in its investigation of the then national security advisor to president trump. whether their aim was some kind of perjury trap. one handwritten note reads, "what is our goal? a truth admission come over to get them to live so we can prosecute him or get him fired?" president trump said he expects much more to come out. >> you look at those notes from yesterday, that was total exoneration. these were dirty, filthy cops at the top of the fbi. you know the names better than i do. they were dishonest people. now we have to see what's going to happen.

the general flynn was treated le nobody should -- and i'm not talking about generals, i'm saying, like, nobody in this country should be treated. >> harris: governor huckabee, your reaction? >> mr. huckabee: the worst abuse of a government is when it abuses its own citizens for personal reasons. were political reasons pray that's what happened here, it has become increasingly obvious. i'm hoping that not only will general flynn be exonerated completely, but the people who did this, they need to serve some prison time. because government is supposed to work for us, not the other way around. government should never abuse the power that it has, which is virtually unlimited. that is exactly what they did against general flynn. >> harris: so, with the talk today about a possible pardon, or at least consideration of that, marie, i want you to watch this from judge andrew napolitano, our chief judicial analyst here at fox news, on the parameters.

what they would be, where general flynn to be pardon. watch. >> to renounce and denounce this behavior. ask the judge to vacate the guilty plea. it should ask the judge to dismiss the indictment. if all of that doesn't happen, then the president should pardon general flynn within the next day or so. because this type of behavior simply cannot be allowed to continue in america. >> harris: marie? >> marie: well, i often agree with our colleague and friend, judge napolitano. but i think he went probably a little bit too far, here. it is worth remembering -- in reference to what president trump said earlier -- that mike flynn was fired because he lied to the vice president about his conversations with russian officials. the fbi lying came later. mike flynn was first fired because when he was asked to tell the vice president and the truth about his contact with the russians, flynn lied.

he had a choice to make, and he chose to live. when it comes to the legal case, the child of the totality of the discussion,we n. from my reading of the question that was handwritten in, there were questions about how they were conducting their investigation. that doesn't mean it was a bad investigation. this agent asked question as part of that process. again, when michael flynn, who is a highly trained intelligence military officer, he is not stupid, he is not easily taken for a stupid person. when the fbi required and by law to tell the truth, he did not do so. that was his choice. he pled guilty because of it. that, in my mind, is the end of the story, harris. >> harris: melissa? >> melissa: yeah, i think that if i read a note in fbi handwriting saying, "it is our goal to get him to lie or to get him fired?" say that was written about

marie harf and they were going to her house. i wouldn't like it. i wouldn't stand for it. i would have something to say about it. i certainly wouldn't feel okay if that note was written about an interview coming to my house. i think our audience would feel the same way. they shouldn't be pondering, "is our goal to get him to lie or to get him fired?" that is not ever supposed to be on the menu of lists of options for fbi agents. there is no time that's acceptable, and that's what they are going for. yes, he did lied to the vice president later. that's why he was fired. that stance. in my mind, all those things can be true at the same time. but to have in their own handwriting that goal, i'm not comfortable for them going to anyone's house with that goal ever. >> harris: with just a few seconds, marie, i want to get your rebuttal. >> marie: it's not clear that that was their goal. this agent who wrote that note was asking the question as part

of how these agents were trying to determine how to conduct a very politically sensitive and charged investigation. until we see evidence that it was their goal, i am willing to take michael flynn at his word that he pled to in court, that he lied. i have the full faith and confidence that if that were written in the note about me or melissa or anyone else in this panel, we would tell the truth when the fbi came to her house. i want more information here before exonerate someone who repeatedly lied about this information. >> harris: okay, we're going to scoot. joe biden under mounting pressure to address sexual assault allegations against him, as "the new york times" says their investigation did not clear the former vice president. is it time for biden to take some tough questions? heck, just take one. ♪ in these unprecedented times, your vision is

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>> melissa: "the new york times" says it never cleared joe biden of allegations that he sexually assaulted a former senate staffer after buz buzzfeed news published talking points claiming the papers probe found the incident did not happen. this comes as a growing chorus of prominent voices are now

calling for biden to publicly address the sexual assault allegations, including house democratic caucus chair hakeem jeffries. marie, i will start with you. in the beginning, everybody who is the target of these kind of stories always hopes they are going to go away. obviously, this one isn't. now, especially as business insider has some on the record to corroborate the story of the time, or at least that the victim explained it to them, what do you think joe biden's response should be? >> marie: i think the former vice president should come out very strongly and denying it, as his team has repeatedly. melissa, i've known hundreds of women who worked for joe biden throughout the years. i have never heard a whisper of anything like sexual assaults. women tell each other these things. i've never even heard this rumor. further, this accuser, who has the right to be heard in her accusation should be vetted, over the past year she has

changed her story so dramatically from first thing in an interview that he touched her shoulders to then, when the vice president was about to clinch the nomination, suddenly that became rape. i think you should come out and vehemently deny them, because there is no evidence he committed sexual assault, and most men don't do this once. if they do, they are a serial assaulters. the person who was vice president in multiple times ran for president, nothing has been said about this. he should come out and denied it. >> melissa: that begs a really obvious question, governor huckabee. why in the world have we not heard from him? >> mr. huckabee: good question. same thing we could have asked about the brett kavanaugh hearings. why didn't we hear this before? joe biden is entitled to two things. i hope you give it to them. one is a presumption of innocence, and the other is due process. something that brett kavanaugh didn't get. i want some of these people in the democratic party, like senator hirono from hawaii, who

told the men to shut up, and others who said, "believe all the women," explained paired which time do you believe all the women and tell the men to st up? you can't have it both ways. have a consistent standard. to give joe biden resumption of innocence. give him due process and let him answer it. the thing is, he hasn't answered it. that's what he's got to do. >> melissa: yeah. harris, what do you think about that? there is a point in time where you don't go out and address it, but then it reaches critical mass. to not have said -- >> harris: i think he wants to be the president of the united states. he wants to be the president of the united states. he says things are going to be better with him. he's got to answer this question. you know what? when he's facing people like me, journalists, they need to ask him about it. nobody gets a pass on all of this. these women who said they wanted to be president of the united states, some of them are commenting. but they are not saying, "okay,

yes, absolutely. yes into this. in fact, i called in 15 minutes ago." we are out of time. >> melissa: more "outnumbered" in just a moment. ♪r te one call to newday can save you $2000 a year. it's that simple. with their va streamline refi, there's no income verification or home appraisal. and this refi costs you absolutely nothing out of pocket. it's the quickest and easiest refi newday has ever offered. one call can save you $2000.

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>> melissa: think group to governor mike huckabee and the rest of the virtual couch. we are back noon tomorrow. "outnumbered overtime" i with harris faulkner starts now. ♪ >> harris: a tidal wave of job loss is raising new questions on the path forward in this coronavirus age. this is "outnumbered overtime." and harris faulkner. 3.8 million additional americans filing for an employment benefits. this was last week. look at the numbers, we'll add them up. that brings the total to more than 30 million since the height of the outbreak last month. president trump said last hour, "our economy will click, quickly