being on. sandra, just to kind of closing out here, we've all been thinking about sports and getting it back, getting the american psyche back. football is a big part about, obviously. >> sandra: absolutely. always good to hear from jim gray, as well. coach shula will be missed. ed, thank you, and thanks everyone for joining us. we'll see you again tomorrow morning. "outnumbered" starts now. >> harris: more states are starting to be open today from coronavirus shutdowns, including most of florida, which is entering phase one of its reopening plan. this comes as president trump is calling out virginia and criticizing some states he said were not reopening fast enough. watch the president. >> certain states are going to have to take a little more time and getting open, and they're doing that. some states, i think, frankly aren't going fast enough. you have some states -- virginia, they want to close down until the middle of june. a lot of things that they are doing, i really believe you can go to parks. you can go to beaches.

you keep the spread, you stayaway a certain amount. i really think the public has been incredible. >> harris: meanwhile, white house coronavirus response coordinator, dr. deborah birx, is warning people about letting their guard down when asked about large crowds of protesters not wearing masks during rallies at the michigan state house last week. here she is. >> it's devastatingly worrisome to me, personally. if they go home and infect their grandma or their grandfather, who has a comorbid condition, and they have a serious or an unfortunate outcome, they will feel guilty for the rest of their lives. >> harris: you're watching "outnumbered" on a fine monday. i'm harris faulkner. here today, melissa francis. host of "kennedy" on fox business, kennedy. attorney and fox news contributor, emily compagno. joining us in the center box, physician and professor of medicine at nyu langone health,

and fox news medical contributor, dr. marc siegel. we say he's "outnumbered," but beloved. good to see you. all right, doctor, i'm going to start with you. when you hear deborah birx, dr. birx, say that it is devastatingly worrisome to see people outside breaking the guidelines that we all have agreed upon have kept us safe and continue to, what do you think? >> dr. siegel: harris, i think -- there's a couple of things. first of all, it depends on the state. she was talking about michigan, where there's been 45,000 cases, and a recent surge. not clear that they are flattening the curve. you know, florida is about 35,000 cases, but in florida the question isn't, in my mind, in my opinion, whether the beaches should be open, but how long you keep them open when there are no public bathrooms. is it possible to keep social distancing on the beaches? >> harris: ew. >> dr. siegel: i think it might be.

you see people walking along the sidewalks anyway. the real question is, region by region, how many cases have you flatten the curve and can you get people outside and away? you and i have talked a lot about mental health issues. boy, a couple of hours on the beach, if you can obey the social distancing, is great for mental health in a state like florida. >> harris: you talk about bathroom facilities, hand washing is such a huge part of all this. no matter how much hand sanitizer you have at the beach, it mixes with sand. i've got to imagine you've got kind of a mess on your hands. you need to go and wash them off. the length of time is something that probably, legally, could be talked about, too. you might want to add that into your guidelines. emily, i'm going to ask you, with your legal background. are any of these leaders on shaky ground, if the guidelines really are too wide? notwithstanding the attorney general has said they need to take another look at them and that they may be overstepping.

you hear dr. siegel talking about back dominic bathroom facilities at the beach. >> emily: wright, the issue becomes when constitutional rights and liberties are being infringed. that is really when there is a very high bar for these governors and the state leaders to cross, if they're actually going to pass judicial muster. we've talked about this before, the test is whether it's the least restrictive means of accomplishing a legitimate goal. so the plaintiff can argue, "look, here's a way to accomplish this legitimate public health goal without trampling on my constitutional right," then that is when they are on shaky ground. i have to say, dr. siegel touched on that regional nature. i'm sitting here in washington, i'm from california. my governor just extended the stay-at-home order through the end of this month, but he announced a 4-phase plan, each phase lasting about three weeks. he has refused to give specific data that has led him to this conclusion, because he says, "i'm waiting for to be favorable." the differences that here he has allowed any county that does

meet certain criteria to basically apply to be exempt. and he says there are ten counties here that essentially could get back to work sooner. in california, that's 58 counties, 15 of which have seen zero deaths. and yet, governor gavin newsom continues to apply sort of that one-size-fits-all, which is why it's such an issue. >> harris: i'm going to step in there, because we have california congressman devin nunes talking about the decision. let's watch that. >> several weeks ago, this governor decided to declare war on open space. i've said, if we can do mosh pits at grocery stores, why can't we go out? if it's not 6 feet, maybe you can be 16 feet apart in a park or on the beach. maybe you could be 26 feet. maybe 106 feet. there's got to be, at some point, at some level, that people can get onto the beaches. >> harris: kennedy? >> kennedy: he's absolutely right.

california, think about how much that state borders the pacific ocean. people do want to get out of their houses. emily is absolutely right. when you're talking about constitutional rights, and our basic civil liberties, at some point you have to trust people. when you're saying to them, "we will make every decision," it's also saying, "we don't trust you to make decisions." i think people are very well-informed. people do not -- loved ones -- and dr. siegel's absolutely right. we have to be able to get out in the sunshine for our -- it's not -- different states are going to open at different rates. >> harris: yeah. you know, dr. siegel, we have talked a lot about the mental health. we did a whole town hall on it. it is so critical, it's something people are coming together now and at least acknowledging, as here kennedy

there. meanwhile, president trump last night predicted a coronavirus vaccine could come a lot sooner than 12-18 months. like what most experts say. watch. >> we are very confident we are going to have a vaccine at the end of -- by the end of the year, will have a vaccine. >> by the end of this year? >> we think we will have a vaccine by the end of this year. we are pushing very hard. you know, we are building supply lines. >> harris: this, as the scientists at britain's oxford university have told nbc that researchers will likely know by june whether a potential vaccine will be effective. melissa, i come to you on this. not for the medical part that you and dr. siegel and i will talk about, but just the psychology part. when people hear that there might be a vaccine coming, it's a lot easier to talk about reopening. i would imagine. what are your thoughts on? >> melissa: i was talking to a lot of people this weekend about what it would take for you to

reopen your business, and what you think would bring the customers back. more than a vaccine, people talk about a therapeutic. so it's this idea, with a flu vaccine, you know that you get it, you get the flu vaccine, and sometimes you get sick anyway. maybe the flu vaccine isn't dead on, with the strain is for that season. when you compare it to a vaccine for the measles or something, yes, we have so much faith in something like this. but when you talk about a flu vaccine, we know how hard it is to get it right on the nose. it was more this thought that, if there was a therapeutic out there, you would feel better knowing that if you went out and somehow got it, if they were wrong about whether the antibodies protect you, if they were wrong about whether a vaccine would protect you, but if the worst happened and he did get it, you would recover and not go into the hospital and need a ventilator. that's where the fear lies. to me, and terms of the security of restoring our economy and getting people's lives back to normal, it's more about the

treatment and knowing that this illness would not kill you or your loved ones. instead, you would be sick for a little while and then you can get some medicine and get better. >> harris: i want to draw everybody's attention to something, too. keep beautiful melissa up there, because he will see on the box, i'm watching -- in the center section of the scroll we have, it's what all of the states are doing, reopening 50% capacity. we are going to keep that up for a little bit during this particular segment. i invite everybody to look up. right now it says "cases," and you can see that. but that center box changes. let's put this up on the screen, a world health organization envoy is cautioning that we may never have a covid-19 vaccine. behind all that melissa just said, maybe there isn't one coming. there are some viruses that we still do not have vaccines against. we can't make an absolute assumption that a vaccine will appear at all." dr. siegel, we know for hiv, for example, a vaccine for that. they've been working on for

decades now. is that a probability? what do you think about what this envoy is saying? >> dr. siegel: harris, i'm pretty optimistic about this. it is certainly a possibility that we won't get a vaccine. first of all, not only what dr. fauci is saying, but i talked to alex azar, the hhs secretary, this week about this very issue. the scientists are still very positive about the nine candidates that they put on the protocol for this, the ones they are studying. they are using brand-new genetic technology in a couple of cases. the oxford one you mentioned is using slightly older technology. it's looking very, very good. now, it still has to go through these massive clinical trials. but what i like a lot about operation warp speed -- and it has never been done -- and melissa will like this -- they are going to the manufacturing process with the science, so at the end of the process, if they get a candidate that emerges, baying, they'll be making hundreds of millions of doses

right away to match it. so there won't be a lag time between the science and the manufacturing. if they choose wrong, they will take the hit in terms of billions of dollars of losses. but notice we are talking trillions of dollars right now. so it's a good bet. i like that they're doing it. it's never been done, and i think it's a very wise approach. >> harris: real quickly, we got to scoot to a break, but i want to get candy back in here. and i had some microphone difficulties. i will come back to you with this question. the big thing -- and he heard melissa touch on this -- even with the flu shot, people don't get it. we had more people last year than the year before, i did some research on this. so we are bursting up to about 60%. but we should be so much more than that with something that we know technically can help us, like a flu shot. i guess my question is, what most people get this based on their behavior already? >> kennedy: i don't know, man. that's a great question. that's a conversation you should have with your doctor, people who are older, people who are

immunocompromised. you have a solution. you should protect yourself and you should protect your family. i don't think the government should be telling you necessarily come in your body. now is a really exciting time to look beyond vaccines. there may be something on the horizon that will protect us, that we haven't even conceived of yet as a society. i'm very optimistic about something like that. necessity is the mother of invention, and what they could be inventing now could actually be safer and more effective. >> harris: data so interesting. so not necessarily a therapeutic, but something that would boost us in a different way. i love these conversations. thank you, everybody. sit by. shielding america's businesses from covid-19 liability is shaping up as the next big fight on capitol hill, as the senate convenes today. why democrats call it a nonstarter, and a senate majority leader is drawing the line. >> we are perfectly willing to

discuss the way forward, but the way you make law is to have it passed the house and the senate. what i'm saying is we have a redline on liability. it won't pass the senate without it. ♪ i know that every single time that i suit up, there is a chance that that's the last time. 300 miles an hour, thats where i feel normal. i might be crazy but i'm not stupid. having an annuity tells me that i'm protected. during turbulent times, consider protected lifetime income from an annuity as part of your retirement plan. this can help you cover your essential monthly expenses. learn more at protectedincome.org . to give you the protein you need with less of the sugar you don't. [grunting noise] i'll take that. yeeeeeah! 30 grams of protein and 1 gram of sugar ensure max protein. now available in twelve-count. stock up today!

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now that's simple, easy, awesome. transfer your service in minutes, making moving with xfinity a breeze. visit xfinity.com/moving today. >> melissa: senators returning to washington today for the first time since march 25th, with no plans laid out yet for another stimulus package. majority leader mitch mcconnell says any new relief will need to shield employers from liability if their workers contract the virus. wyoming senator john barrasso chairs the conference. >> republicans are talking about, however, his liability reform to try and give some

protection to our health care workers, are small businesses that are trying to open, to get the economy going again, so they don't have to live in fear of lawsuits. you may have seen some of the ads, and is astonishing. "sue the nursing home, sued the college that sent you home early, sue your boss." the list is long. >> melissa: but democrats calling any liability shield for businesses a nonstarter. in the meantime, chuck schumer slamming mcconnell for bringing senators back while the house remains closed over covid-19 fears. the top democrat in the senate tweeting, "senate republicans should be laser focused on the health and economic crises caused by covid-19, not confirming right wing judges or protecting big businesses from liability." obviously this is a big concern. emily, let me start with you. what in the of the biggest concerns among businesses is they reopen and they bring their employees back, and then they get sued. either by employees who get sick on the job, or from customers.

there is not clear guidelines on how they can avoid that happening. taking liability feels like a huge risk. what should they do, what can they do? >> emily: i agree with you. we absolutely need liability protections, and here's why. reopening the economy is not about just flipping a switch and everything going back to normal how it was before covid. these businesses need some type of help, and they need policies that will help preserve jobs and save jobs and also enable these businesses to thrive. so i take issue with some of those democratic senators who are classifying this as big businesses only. no, these are families behind the small businesses. there are a lot of policies within the stimulus relief bill that created challenges for the small business owners. more than challenges, actually. quite significant difficulties. moving forward, we need to acknowledge that we should have these policies that help create and save jobs, and also suspend those policies that hamstring

them. that's everything from tipped credits in the restaurant industry to these liability protections, acknowledging the predictable class actions that will ensue from this. anchorage viewers, by the way, last point, to pay attention to their local cas local city cound their marriage. it's sending a message how pro-business they are, how pro-jobs they are, and it will certainly set the tone for how the economy can recover at that local level. >> melissa: that is such a viewpoint. kennedy, we see that a lot. there are those city councils that sit there and able to make rules on this front, and dictate the lives of businesses as they go forward. you want people to be protected, but at the same time, there is an inherent risk with going out. we can't all hide in our houses for the rest of our lives. >> kennedy: you know, and businesses have to be able to employ people without fear. that is absolutely right, the

small businesses are the ones very much in danger of going under, those who haven't already shuttered their doors for good. we have to have something that is much more functional that also requires personal responsibility on both fronts. that's people going to work and employers, and they can work together mutually and have these agreements. the everything about the city councils, who are they beholden to? democrats are the party that is beholden to trial lawyers. trial lawyers are going to enrich themselves phenomenally if they are, in fact, able to push some of these massive lawsuits through. is that really the best way to recover from this hideous pandemic? i don't think so. i think getting people back to work and encouraging productivity and creativity in any way. emily is absolutely right. it's not going look the exact same, but it'll look very dire if everyone is worried about being sued to death. >> melissa: yeah. the flip side of that is having

the federal government pay for everything, as no one goes back to work. here are nancy pelosi's thoughts on that issue. >> i've talked about almost a trillion dollars right there. we're not going to be able to cover all of it, but to the extent that we can keep the states and localities sustainable, that's our goal. >> melissa: harris, i mean, she talked about the federal government covering these trillions and trillions of dollars. i guess they're just going to print the money in order to be able to do that. >> harris: some of it. >> melissa: if nobody's working, and we are not paying increased taxes, i don't understand how they think they are going to float all the businesses -- >> harris: she doesn't know how they pay for it, either. that's why you heard the speaker say, "well, we couldn't pay for all of it." those are great questions to ask somebody who was part of the health bill you had to pass to find quotes in it. we won't even goi do have a hean about the beneficiary of a bill

language like this. we just saw, without specificity, big corporations and universities who were already lawyered up and have their tax people already to go, they took advantage of a situation that was supposed to help small businesses. we've already seen that. so the specificity on the language to protect against lawsuits -- because it won't necessarily be the mom-and-pops that gets you the most. i don't agree with you on that. i think it will be the bigger corporations who are set up for that. people are going to go after them, the deepest pockets. so this benefits them. and we have some specificity in the language that says, "we've got to have clean hand washing facilities, masks available if you require your employees to wear them?" and it isn't the employee on the customer -- they are legally different. we never see the employee is right. we say that about the customer. if we put this language in a bill -- and i say "we," are represented as on the hill -- how specific it is is really important. we seen what happens when it

isn't. >> emily: that a such a great point, harris. if i may quickly respond to that. i think an example is the restaurant industry. hospitality in total, that the $900 billion industry as of 2019. to your point, many corporations are the target of these lawsuits. but that is the second largest private employer in the entire united states. it's over 2% of our gdp. that's the kind of industry would see a lot of these class actions happening. that specificity, you're absolutely right. we need to have that in the future phase, and this bill. in the past, that is partly what was so hamstringed for the small businesses, for example. that the treasury made changes to amortization and payroll taxes and the sponge ability. so they were the ones left holding the bill while their doors on it open yet, so their revenues are not resurrected. >> melissa: meanwhile, president trump sang the u.s. coronavirus death toll could be much higher than in previous

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♪ >> we are going to lose anywhere from 75, 80, 200,000 -- that's a

horrible thing, we shouldn't lose one person over this. it should have been stopped in china. it should have been stopped. if we didn't do it, the minimum we would have lost was a milli million, 2 million, 4 million. that's the minimum. >> harris: president trump sang the u.s. covid-19 death toll could surpass his earlier predictions by quite a bit. right now, the united states is nearly 68,000 deaths and 1.1 million covid-19 cases. already above the president's previous estimate. like the president, secretary of state mike pompeo said yesterday he is pointing the finger at china. >> there is enormous evidence that that is where this began. we have said from the beginning that this was a virus that originated in wuhan, china. these are not the first times we've had a world exposed to viruses that are a result of failures in a chinese lab. >> harris: chinese state media

pushing back, accusing the secretary of spreading "groundless accusations," and urging them to present any evidence he has to the rest of the world. well, they are working on that. we've got investigations going on with our intelligence and others. dr. siegel, if they really wanted, we've got the people to bring it. they're working on it. what do you make of the president now saying 100,000?" 100,000? i want to make it clear, this is the first time we've heard him say that. he referenced that back on marcn ceremony when he boosted the deadline for guidelines, to april 30th. he mentioned that 100,000 number then. is that realistic? were re-not realistic before? is going to be more than that compact is based on the modeling that i know you watch. >> dr. siegel: well, the modeling is changing. it depends on how many cases there are. it depends on how much spread there is. but the projections now are, as to close in on 70,000 and we are still seeing about 2,000 deaths

a day in the united states, as this continues we are going to start closing in on 100,000. i don't think he's being unrealistic, here. even with all the mitigation strategies redoing, that definitely are having a big impact. i want to comment on china for a minute, and say i completely agree with the secretary of state. first of all, we didn't know how ferocious this virus was. we weren't told by chinese scientists that it was causing blood clots in addition to all this inflammation. we didn't know how wildly contagious this was. the world health organization was saying back in the end of january and early february that this was a regional problem only, and in terms of the wuhan lab, i want to weigh in on that for one second and say this. there is something science-fiction-like called gain of function, harris. you know what that means? it means you are manipulating a virus to see whether it would attack humans. to see if you can manipulate it, to see if it would attack humans. that type of research may very well have been going on in this

lab, funded by the united states. maybe. this is a maybe. these reports are out there. i think it's much more likely that this virus came from a wet market or from a batcave than a lab, but if they were manipulating it in the lab, then my radar goes up. that's where our intelligence has to go. what happened in that lab? >> harris: interesting. the gain of function you talk about, you say there is no evidence of that yet. i just want to make that clear. perhaps it's part of the investigation that is going on. emily, i come to you on this next point, because you have states now wanting to go after china legally. we saw this after 9/11 with saudi arabia. having how reasonable is that, s it help to have a federal government pointing the finger if you as an american citizen would want to go after the country of china? >> emily: right. i think it does help with messaging that our federal

government is behind it, and also that there is sort of a global awareness right now, a growing global stance, blaming china essentially for a lot of disinformation and refusal to stamp down the effects, at the time, of the release, that could have saved lives. i think we will see that global push to hold them accountable moving forward. there are two issues come legally. one is that they are suing the communist party. they aren't suing a sovereign state. that removes them from the sovereign act that would bar a lawsuit of this type. the second is the business exception, that it's through commerce. that they are running this biology lab, hospitals, et cetera. there are two sort of legal small loopholes that they are trying to get the camel moves into the tent. i have to point out, i think it significant the president also predicted an independence by the u.s. in the form of antibiotics and not having to rely on china anymore in the next two years. i think, moving forward, in addition to holding them

accountable for some semblance of justice that people might feel, it's also crucial for us to understand just how entrenched this country is with them in the form of supply chain. especially in the realm of medical supplies, that hopefully we can extract ourselves from it. i hope we don't paint sort of a partisan picture on that and call it nationalism, because i think it's really important for us to stand on her own two feet. >> harris: well, even when you consider if they weren't already in a better position because they make and manufacture at least ingredients and pieces and parts, if not in totality, some of the things we need right now during a pandemic. they reportedly were vacuuming it up all over the world, in the very early stages of this. if they didn't already have an advantage, they really have one now. because they made sure they did. kennedy and melissa, sit by for just a second. i want to double down with the doctor on something that emily just said. that has to do with this idea of holding them accountable. where do you see things went really wrong in the very

beginning? i mean, there have been wise we've talked about, human to human transmission. are there other things you can point to china and say, "yeah, that's awful, and that's evil?" >> dr. siegel: number one on the list, harris, even as chinese scientists were talking to our own scientists at our own cdc, and even as they were publishing the structure of the virus online, we were pushing and begging to have our cdc have boots on the ground in china. that was asked for in january, early-mid-january. it was denied and denied and denied, and still isn't the case now. that's enough to make everybody don't like anybody suspicious. more than that, there's a huge scientific need for countries to cooperate. as you've said, as everyone on the couch has said, a virus doesn't obey political boundaries. it's not a country, it's a virus. it's floating around the world, it's a public health emergency. that is a worldwide problem. we need worldwide cooperation,

and that starts with the world health organization, which is really absent here and a disgrace and how they handle this. suppressing information, too. >> harris: it is so interesting that a point to those medical boots on the ground being the first. taiwan got in and the very early days, not having a good relationship with china, so i've read, but they got in on the ground. they could only go where the chinese government would allow them to go, but they saw enough to be able to fight this thing from the beginning. almost in an unmatched way, from the very, very beginning, as we watch the people of taiwan move past this. dr. siegel, everybody, sit by. new york doctors are telling patients not to avoid taking care of syria's noncoronavirus health care. what will it take to feel safe again inside a doctor's office, when you're not going for covid-19? you need to check up, or you have diabetes, or you got something else going on. ♪

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♪ >> melissa: a major new york health provider is urging patients not to skip regular doctor visits amid the coronavirus pandemic. nyu langone hospital riding in an email, "please do not risk your health by delaying care. it is understandable that there might be concerned about coming to a doctor's office or hospital right now. rest assured that we have put in place strict safety procedures to protect our patients." dr. siegel, that is your hospital, so i will start with you. should people feel safe? what procedures are in place to keep them that way? >> dr. siegel: am very familiar with this, melissa, and i'm actually very proud of it. it is 30 ambulatory hubs at nyu that are going to reopen, with doctors, will die specialties, together. re-offering care that people desperately need, look for heart

disease, lung disease, infections, blood pressure come things like that. procedures that have been put on the side that it really needed. the key here is that every person on the staff is going to be tested for covid-19 before they can go to work. that will be done repeatedly. equipment will be used that will protect patients, and also the staff, from each other. people are going to wear masks, gloves, gowns, and those shields you've seen. they will clorox the shields in between patients. personal protective equipment. i think that's an abundance of caution. i don't expect cases to emerge from this activity. consider the other side of this, which is if we continue to allow people who are in pain, were in discomfort, whose lives they are at risk, to not go to the doctor. i think this is a great move forward. >> melissa: yeah. how do you think people will feel about that, and respond to that? i think they're kind of in two groups. i've had doctors appointments,

my family and my children, canceled because of the subject. you want to get that care that you need. there are others who are afraid to even go to a restaurant, so they're not going to feel good about going to a medical facility. what do you say to them, dr. siegel? >> dr. siegel: that's a really good follow-up. first of all, telemedicine will continue. that's been working. for people that don't absolutely have to go to the doctor, you've got telemedicine. second, i do think fear is going to be a factor. i'm not kidding myself, there's going be people that will not come because they're afraid of somebody wearing a shield. the chances are the doctor's office will be a place highly disinfected, where precautions are really followed, and where the person taking care of you is not sick themselves. for people who are really in semiurgent or urgent situations, or really need that procedure they've been putting off, this is a really good idea.

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>> harris: the justice department is siding with a virginia charge that sued governor ralph northam after police issued a criminal summons to a pastor. he was holding a palm sunday service for 16 people. the church says those congregants sat far apart, in a space which can hold more than 200 people. virginia's coronavirus restrictions ban religious gatherings of more than ten people, but allow some secular gatherings. in a statement of interest, the doj says, "the commonwealth of virginia has offered no good reason for refusing to trust congregants who promised to use care in worship, in the same way it trust accountants, lawyers, and other workers to do the same." kennedy, i come to you. i think i heard you say the word "trust" earlier. a lot of this comes down to that. what do you say? >> kennedy: yeah, no, obviously the governor of the commonwealth of virginia has a great deal of mistrust for his citizens.

if there is a mutual agreement that we are going to take care of ourselves and spread ourselves out, like you pointed out, the church holds almost 300 people. there were only 16 people there. we have seen other celebrations that have been more irresponsible, but it's as though some of the governors who have made these edicts have completely shredded the constitution and are no longer reading the most sacred parts. in fact, i would say take a look at the first amendment. that is the number one amendment that codifies the very secret rates we have as americans. >> harris: emily, i'm going to come to you. i was taking notes earlier in something you said. he said the legal problem begins when constitutional rights and liberties are being infringed. what do you say about this case? is that happening? >> emily: right, well, that's what the doj's arguing, here. i think the statement is an instructor to their position, which is that the commonwealth has offered no good reason for

failing to trust that these congregants would exercise the same level of care as they are right now currently with lawyers and accountants and the like. so they are basically saying that this is not the least restrictive way of accomplishing a legitimate goal. that they are trampling our constitutionally protected liberties to exercise religious freedom, and they yet are disparately applying it for those like accountants and lawyers who are seemed essential workers. on the subject of morale, when one in five workers are unemployed and food banks are being depleted, i don't think it is a positive site to see pastors being arrested or being subjected to criminal summons during this time. >> harris: food insecurity in this country was real before, and now it hasn't been invented, it's been revealed. melissa, you and i talk about the economic struggles people who were are really struggling are feeling right now. melissa, one of the things that just shocks me about this is the

definition of essential. maybe that is where the conversation needs to come. it's not my job to proselytize. all i'm saying is that, when you're dealing with the kinds of food insecurity that emily just laid out, when you look at new 70,000 people dead from covid-19, the doctor has said this hour, some people might want to pray and they might want to be together, as many as possible, spaced apart. >> melissa: you know, i have been surprised that that has been one of the most painful things to me personally about this. the inability to go to church. i realize how much i had depended on it every sunday, to kind of go and reflect and reflect on the weekends think about things that you want to do differently and better, and to be together with your family in worship without other distractions. it is a huge benefit, and my family is going to read the scripture remotely this weekend for the group, and we are still

able to connect online, but it's not the same at all. i've just been -- you know, i kind of wonder why that's not one thing we are trusted to do together. before, the last time i church community met, we were spaced out. a lot of people did have their faces covered. we didn't touch each other's hands. we didn't take communion in the same way. we were respecting and observing all of the things that we have learned to do, and i'm sure we're going to do that for at least a while going forward. i was just kind of surprised that we weren't allowed to continue to meet in that way, at a time when your heart really needs it. >> harris: yeah. we will express that surprise and ask her questions, and maybe we will get some answers. more "outnumbered" in a moment. veterans, how can one phone call save you $2000 a year? by refinancing your va loan at today's incredibly low rates at newday usa. newday's va streamline refi is the quickest and easiest refi

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>> we have faced tougher

problems, and the american miracle, the american magic, has always prevailed. you can bet on america. >> melissa: berkshire hathaway ceo, warren buffett, assuring investors during a virtual meeting that the american economy will recover from the coronavirus crisis, but he also says he sold its entire $6.5 billion stake in four major u.s. airlines last month as the pandemic devastated air travel. the airline stocks today plunging on that news, and kennedy, i will go to you first. there is some nuance to this. he is saying he thinks that the airlines are going to struggle going forward, based on what's happening, but it's not necessarily because we aren't all going to go back to flying. it has more to do with this idea that the government has taken a position in these airlines, as they try to bail them out. i wonder, if the real problem with the airlines as the pandemic, its people not traveling, or is it this way

that they are trying to get a bailout from the government? the government takes a steak, that the messiness of that going forward, versus free-market reality. >> kennedy: you are absolutely right, and i'm glad to use that phrase, "free market realities." there's a feeling of unreality when the government picks winners and losers. the winners are the smaller industries that will certainly suffer, the big companies have to learn to cut cost in the firt place. when something like this happens, they are more prepared for it and they are more nimble. the idea of something being too big to fail can be devastating for the rest of the economy. >> melissa: yeah. dr. siegel, is it safe to fly? you see some airlines now, delta and jetblue, i believe, say you have to wear masks. is that enough? >> dr. siegel: i think it is safe to fly, provided you are not flying into an epicenter. provided you take precautions, and provided you are aware that,

in these close spaces, it's very easy to spread this virus. i'm very cautious about airflight. it's got to be essential to be happening. i want to say it one other quick thing, which is the point about the end middle spirit of america. we will be this virus, warren buffett is right about that. >> melissa: absolutely right. think of to a virtual couch. thank you so much to dr. marc siegel and everybody else. we are back here tomorrow at noon eastern. "outnumbered overtime" with harris faulkner starts right now. ♪ >> harris: the secretary of the senate says he cannot legally comply with joe biden's request to release information on a possible complaint from former staffer, tara reade. that secretary of the senate he is citing confidentiality. you're watching "outnumbered overtime" now, i'm harris faulkner. growing falut