♪ ♪ howard: this is immediate a ya was, i'm howard kurtz, protests spreading to dozens of cities across the country, president trump continuing to express sympathy over the killing of george floyd talking mainly about stopping the violence. >> i am your president of law and order and an ally of all peaceful protesters. our nation has been gripped by professional anarchists, violent mobs, arsonists, looters, criminals, rioters, antifa and others. these are not acts of peaceful protest, these are acts of

domestic terror. howard: the president is also escalating his rhetoric against the media. if you watch fake news cnn, you would think that the killers, terrorists, around -- antifa and others would be the nice, kindest, most wonderful people in the whole wide world x. some conservative commentators are back his indictment of the coverage. >> and some media figures, by the way, have aided and abetted the chaos. portraying those driving the lawlessness as somehow justified in smashing, grabbing, pushing, beating, destroying. >> these news anchors, that's what you want to call them, they're taking side with anarchists. >> the media is sour now because they were forced to shoot a photo op of the president of the united states demonstrating that he's not going to be intimidated by criminals. and they're bitter that they had to film it because it deals a

big blow to their lawless side. >> he calls them thugs? who's the thug here? hiding in a bunker, hiding behind a suit? who is the thug? >> if you can't keep a fox news correspondent from getting attacked directly across the street from your house, how are you going to protect my family? how hard are you trying? this. >> he is playing the media. he wants to be reelected come november, and nothing else matters. don't care about police brutality, doesn't care about how minorities are treated in this country. howard: joining us now to analyze the coverage, moe e lay they, griff jenkins and a former dnc official. who are these anchors and journalists who, according to the president, are saying that the killers and the terrorists and the hoodlums and thugs and so forth are wonderful people? >> i think most of the media's

support has been in the form of downplaying the violence, but there has been some explicit support for the rioting portion of these protests. i mean, mara liasson last night of npr both compared antifa terrorists not just to american soldiers, but to american soldiers on d-day. nicole hannah jones, a new york times pulitzer prize winner, said that it was immoral to say that riots are violent and that property destruction is violent. slate ran an entire piece about violence being an important tool to the protest moment. the atlantic preparing this moment to the violent coups a that overthrew other countries. there's no question that the media are showing support here, and also no question that theres is enraging americans who had to deal with the media saying if you went to school, if you had a funeral, if you visited dying

rell vivids, you were -- relatives, you were a public health threat, and now they've turned on a dime. howard: i was going to is ask you about the nicole hannah jones comment, that was pretty stunning, but i don't see anchors and journalists praising those who are carrying out the destruction. met me -- met me get moe in here, there are two issues here, how they cover the minority of violent extremists, but there are media voices on the right arguing that journalists here are on the side of lawlessness. your thoughts. >> yeah. and i think those voices on the right that are saying the media's on the side of lawlessness are further just trying to stoke division. look, an overwhelming majority of people in the media are able to draw the distinction between those who are rioting, those who are causing violence and peaceful protesters. i watch, i consume a lot of news, and watching all of the cable news, reading a lot, they

are calling out the rioters, they are calling out the looters, they are calling out those who have hijacked the peaceful protest movement and separating them. the protesters should be able to demonstrate peacefully and that the memory of george floyd is being dishonored by those who are looting and rioting. that's the correct place to be, to call for getting tough on the rioters. the problem while the president at first said that he supports peaceful protests, he then and his enablers are out there trying to conflate the two, and that is very dangerous. howard: all right. more of that in a moment. griff, the president came out of the white house on friday because he wanted to kind of celebrate a dip in the unemployment numbers, the media thought it would go up. didn't take any questions, fox carried the whole thing, msnbc dumped out after 11 minutes, cnn didn't cover a word, which i found striking. what made news were these remarks by president trump.

>> hopefully, george is looking down right now and saying this is a great thing that's happening for our country. it's a great today for him, it's a great day for everybody. howard: now, what i found striking was that on msnbc regularly al sharpton and others were saying, well, trump was saying george floyd was looking down, he was excited about the jobs report. was that the case? >> well, if you look at the transcript, howie, actually right before those comments the president was talking about equal justice under the law for every american, that every american regardless of race, color, creed would be treated the same and that because of what we tragically witnessed in the death of george floyd, we can get to a place where under law and order you will have equal justice. that's what he was talking about after already talking about it being a great thing, the economic jobs numbers report. i think one of the things that's dangerous in terms of the media's coverage is that the narrative must not be that law

and order in and of itself equals that black lives do not matter, and that is something we should certainly keep our eye on, i think, going forward. howard: yeah. the dnc put talking points, and "the washington post" had to run a correction on that point. mohlie, pick up your broader theme about the coverage, and do you think that the thugs and the looting expect setting of cars on fire and all that, do you think that's getting too much attention? obviously, it's extremely newsworthy when it happened, but do you think it's overshadowing what are tens of thousands of peaceful protests in many, many cities? >> well, again, i don't think that it is getting the proper amount of coverage. in part, people might not realize how devastated many cities are because they're banned from going to work in those cities, and the media continue to downplay it. and what i've seen on tv is a bunch of people sort of downplaying and making excuses. they say, well, we've talked to people who say they feel forced to do this violence.

you saw that on cnn, i saw a today show person saying we're just going to cover them as protests. you had ali belshi saying these are largely peaceful protests. it causes discan trust in the media. -- distrust. they also know that riot situations are very dangerous. they're dangerous for the rioters themselves, for the police that have to bring protection to the city, they're dangerous for the cities, and they're dangerous for the innocent people who have nothing to do with the violence. and so we need to have far better coverage explaining the volatility of this situation. and when the media don't report accurately and honestly, it just causes further distrust in what is already a bad situation for media relations. howard: let me warn you about some video, you may have seen this in buffalo e where two police officers have been arrested for doing this. [inaudible conversations] there are [bleep]

howard: that was a 75-year-old protester knocked to the ground. he's still in the hospital. moe, there have been other instances where the demonstrations to protest police brutality are showing instances of excessive police force. your thoughts about that part of the coverage. >> i'm glad that it's being caught out. i'm glad that it's caught on camera. i'm glad that we live in an era where everyone can walk around with a cell phone and capture these images. the civil rights further -- the march across the pettis bridge because t cameras -- tv cameras were there to capture the police brutality to highlight and spotlight it for the rest of the world that may not have been aware this was going on. we're now seeing these protests that are protesting police brutality, and we're seeing it happen. now, it's not happening everywhere every day. there is many beautiful images

of cops taking a knee with protesters, of police chiefs marching with protesters, of officers holding up signs saying stop police brutality. that is happening. but when we are seeing these cases of police overstepping, again, this was a peaceful gentleman, it's important that that be called out. howard: all right. a little tight on time, so let me is ask you for short answers. former secretary of state colin powell telling cnn this morning he'll vote for joe biden calling president trump a liar. the president tweeting back that powell's a real stiff who is very responsible for getting us into disastrous middle east wars. "the new york times" story today quotes sources as saying george w. bush and mitt romney will not be voting for president trump a second term. are the media trying to create a wave or riding a wave of republicans for biden? >> well, i don't know what they're trying to create, but it certainly would seem that they're sort of culling together the fact that there are a lot of

republicans now that think they could be for medicare for all and possibly undoing the gains made on the federal bench in favor of supporting the fact that they believe donald trump lacks character. that will be the story to watch, indeed. howard: mollie, there's been a media explosion over jim mattis, former defense secretary, telling the atlantic that president trump is not even trying, he's only pretending to unite the country. would you agree this is newsworthy given that mattis has had such a long and decorated career and has been silent for two years since leaving the pentagon? >> just is really quickly that george w. bush's official spokesperson said that was not accurate, what "the new york times" had reported, and colin powell, i don't think, has voted republican since 2004, so i'm not sure how newsworthy it is that he continues to not vote republican. but, yes, people talking about jim mattis who's still smart about trump wanting to it and

the afghan war. i think the media are missing that a lot of people voted for trump because of these things and because he won't just kowtow with the radical left. and that's just missing from the coverage. howard: moe, it's a little harder for the president to demonize mattis than it is, say, omarosa, scaramucci or others with whom he's fallen out. >> yeah, look, you've had a number of serious people who have worked for him that he appointed who are now beginning to openly question him. you're getting a number of significant military officers, high ranking military officers who have worked across multiple administrations, democrat and republican, who are calling hum out. people are going to make up their own judgment, but it is newsworthy. howard: all right, gotta go. when we come back, a huge media furor over the clearing of protesters outside the who is before the -- white house before the president's visit to that

church. did the press get it wrong? ♪ ♪ you doing okay?

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♪ ♪ howard: the scene unfolded on live television as military and federal police move against what journalists described as a a largely peaceful protest in lafayette park across from the white house and forced demonstrators out of the area. >> tear gas is now being fired, you can see what's going on. the police are moving, they're trying to disperse this crowd that has gathered at lafayette park. clearly, they don't want these protesters to be there -- >> i don't know if it's related to the president's remarks, but it's an incredible mill tuesdayed presence at what had been a peaceful protest. >> clear he wants to clear out these crowds before he holds his

press conference in the rose garden. but cheerily some scenes -- clearly some scenes that are people in distress facing pepper gas and tear gas as we're speaking right now. howard: that enabled president trump to walk to the nearby st. john's church damaged by fire the day before and hold up a bible in front of the cameras. mohlue, you wrote a -- mollie, you wrote a piece challenging what actually happened. reporters who were there say it was tear gas, the park police, u.s. park police now say, well, we shouldn't have denied it because it's close enough to tear gas. putting aside that, what were your other problems with the reporting of what happened in lafayette park? >> well, mostly the focus on it. there have been violent riots in hundreds of american cities. you have 15 people who have been killed in the violence, untold city centers that have been obliterated and peaceful

protesters, you know, breached the white house grounds, they set fire to a guard shack, to historic st. john's church. more than 50 police officers in d.c. alone were injured including some that were hospitalized with head injuries, and the media seem to be focused on the fact that this group of protesters were asked to leave three times over 20 minutes, that they refused to do so, and then they were cleared by the police. now, you want to make sure that the police don't use too much force. that's absolutely important. but the context here has been completely missing. and it is very frustrating for a lot of people to watch when they see with their own eyes the violence and the unrest and hope that the police will make sure that they protect federal buildings and federal personnel. howard: moe, i watched on live television along with everybody else. it did seem that the protesters were largely peaceful, and there's been thunderous media criticism because the narrative is they were cleared out that president trump could take that walk and go over to st. joan's church. >> -- st. john's church.

>> i'm sorry, first of all, to say that the media has been ignoring the riots in order to focus on this just doesn't bear out. if you watch coverage over the past week, every single night was -- everyone was focused on the riots and the lawlessness that was happening there. so they weren't ignoring it. now, what happened here, to me, is a betrayal of everything donald trump said he would do. he said that he was going to rein in the out of control federal government. here was him militarizing the police to use chemical irritants and other excessive force against peaceful protesters. there's no evidence that these protesters were doing anything illegal, and yet they met -- >> there is evidence. >> no, there isn't, mollie. i know you said it -- >> no, i'm saying the evidence would include the testimony from the park police saying that they had bricks, rocks and frozen water bottles thrown on them. so you might disagree with that

evidence -- >> you're going to use that, so if we're going to say that when there's an overwhelmingly peaceful protest, that in order to deal with it we are going to militarize the police and use excessive force, use excessive force when we all watched it unfold live on television before our own eyes? to me, that is a huge overstep. i don't care at all about the photo op in front of the church. right? if the president wants to go to a holy place and that is a place that i have been to many times, that many of us have been to many times, and it was tragic that it was set fire to by rioters the night before. i'm glad he went. but to use -- howard: let me jump in. >> -- the real tragedy is the use of excessive force to go after protesters using chemical irritants and then to spend days afterwards denying it. that, to me, is a betrayal of the public trust. howard: i just want to note because it was so unusual that

washington's episcopal bishop, marion buddy, put out a statement saying it was outrageous for the president to go to the church because people at the church didn't know he was coming, and then the next day the catholic archbishop in washington also put out a statement after the president had visited a shrine to st. pope john paul ii saying this was reprehensible and baffling. it's just so unusual when religious leaders speak out against the president. griff, the initial reports were that attorney general bill barr gave the order to clear pennsylvania avenue so that the president could make that walk, but barr has since been kind of distancing himself from the decision. >> well, there seems to be this evolving explanation, but i have have spoken a lot to sources at the doj and the park police as well. early on monday barr approved the decision that is made -- according to doj sources -- to

clear the perimeter based on what had happened over the weekend with the violence that occurred. howard: yeah. >> and, therefore, once it began to be cleared in the afternoon, the park police commander gave the tactical order x they did issue -- and they did issue this irritant, as moe says, but it's technically not tear gas. there's a lot of nuances, but the doj stands firmly behind the fact that barr did not do this specifically for the church, but rather, a decision made with regards to the violence over the weekend. howard: i think that's the point that got lost. we're out of time. molly hemingway, missouri, great to see you. also always. -- as always. fox news is drawing criticism for airing a graphic. fortune and the "wall street journal" had already examined that question, but as ative graphic, it's not -- tv graphic, it's not surprise. the network said in a statement,

the info graphic used on fox news channel's "special report" to illustrate market reactions should never have aired on television without full context. we apologize for the insensitivity of the image and take this issue seriously. ♪ howard: up next, are all those camera crews in cities across america spurring on the protesters and the extremists? we'll debate that next. ♪ ♪ ere is a chance that that's the last time. 300 miles an hour, thats where i feel normal. i might be crazy but i'm not stupid. having an annuity tells me that i'm protected. during turbulent times, consider protected lifetime income from an annuity as part of your retirement plan. this can help you cover your essential monthly expenses. learn more at protectedincome.org . she said it was like someone else was controlling her mouth.

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but if you look to the land, it's a whole different story.

from farms to backyards, wheels are turning. seeds are being planted. animals are getting fed. and grass is growing. and families are giving their all to the soil because no matter how uncertain things get, the land never stops. so to all those linked to the land, we say thank you. we're here for you because we all run together. ♪ ♪ howard: it's become a table of cable news coverage with many programmers being anchored or co-anchored from the streets from. new york to philadelphia, washington to minneapolis, to los angeles as they march with the protesters and anticipate the possibility of violent clashes or rioting as darkness falls. >> they're calling this largely an increasingly peaceful protest during the day with these thousands of people, but at night they're saying it is an

organized effort among anarchists, amongst outside agitators that are going around, and they're communicating with encreated apps -- >> things are getting tense. i want to give you a sense, if you look down this line, you can see protesters face to face with these troops. howard: and we're back with griff jenkins. griff, all these camera crews out on the streets on the seventh, eighth, ninth day of protests, it's part of the side effect perhaps to attract more demonstrators and perhaps also some of those who are planning to be violent. >> well, i've covered ferguson, baltimore, i've been to milwaukee when all of these happened, and sunlight is the best disinfectant, that's the saying, and it's really never been more important, i think, the howie. because i have spoken with some of those in the protest crowds, some of them about antifa folks, others simply upset young

african-americans, all of them saying something that is -- has happened, and it is time to come out in full force because what they've done in the past in terms of protesting, trying to get their message across, didn't work. and, therefore, our cameras need to be there particularly at a time when you are seeing the stuff about law and order president starting to crack down for the very reasons as we just played earlier in the show, which happened in buffalo. howard: yeah. no, of course we have to cover it, and i have no problem with that, but i get this sense as we head toward evening every night that there's an anticipation something bad may a happen, and if something bad happens, this sounds terrible, it's then considered good it's and drives ratings. so i just -- good television, and i just wonder the focus on the streets, do we have to be there virtually 24/7? >> we have to be there 24/7. listen, i think the time would be driven by the reality tv phenomenon that started years

ago. perhaps people want to see things that are really happening. but this one matters. this -- we are at an inflection point in this nation and certainly the streets is where the energy is, where the debate is and where journalists should be and holding every person accountable whether it be a protester, an agitator, a rioter, a looter, a lawmaker, a policeman or national guardsman. we will cover all of them fairly and bring the story to you. has it created -- howard: let me jump in. okay. look, just briefly, fox's steve hilton tweeted: the media are making this worse biharnessing the -- by harnessing the violence for commercial gain. my question is it's been largely peaceful with some exceptions the last few days. should media be replaying and replaying the more violent episodes if it happened a day ago, two days ago, three days ago, four days ago, or is it time to move on and show what's happening right now?

>> well, i think you have to show it days after because we are going to have starting on monday, tomorrow, a possible effort in congress to have this justice for policing. and so we need to know, we need to be reminded of it. but i would just take a little bit of disagreement with our good friend steve hilton. listen, whether the cameras were there or not, macy's was going to get looted and the other instances we've seen. i'll stand firmly behind the fact that we belong there, and we're going to put it on tv whether you want to watch with it or not as a viewer, that's your choice. howard: i may disagree a little wit, but good to see you. ahead, the nfl in turmoil again over those kneeling protests, but first, "the new york times" staffers do a 180, a different point of view on the nationwide protest. front lines. and into the unknown...

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♪ ♪ howard: there's been a staff rebell onat the new york time it

is over the paper willing having the temerity to publish an op-ed by republican senator tom cotton. ny e coal hannah jones who worked on that 1619 slavery project tweeted: as a black woman, as a journalist, as an american, i am deeply ashamed that we ran this. another writer, running this put black staffers in danger. rocks and ghei, this piece was inflammatory. times editor spent a day staunchly defending the piece, wound up apologizing. joining us now, kat timpf and political reporter fox news contributor. kat, even during the uproar, editorial page editor james bennett insisted he owes it to readers e to show counterarguments to the paper's position, also strongly defended

the decision to run this piece. and just before my piece ran on "special report," put out a different statement saying it was a rush. what did you make of that? >> well, i have a nuanced view here. not on the op-ed view itself, i want to be clear. i disagree with what senator cotton wrote in the op-ed e. however, in terms of the pushback, i think, for example, "the washington post" made the point there were some claims in here where you think there should have been a link there backing up what he had to say. i've been a columnist myself for years, and i know my editors say source everything, source everything, source everything. so that i can understand. but when it comes down to people saying it shouldn't have been published because of the opinion it's expressing, that's where i have a problem. because one place he did cite saying this is a common opinion, 58% of registered voters, and that was taken a few days ago. who knows if that may have changed, but it is a common

opinion. it's not a fringe opinion. it's not a random shmuck off the street. this is a senator, and i always am on the side of more speech and not less. ironically enough, we're talking about these issues now which we may not have been talking about had it not happened. howard: all right, mara, the first walkback said the times needs to boost its fact checking then sulzberger told his staff on friday that the piece was contemptuous and shouldn't have been published, so now it's not a factual problem, but what the paper calls a needlessly harsh tone. it sounded to me like the paper's just trying to find a reason to disavow this story. >> it just sounds like a mess from start to finish. i mean, it sounds like they solicited this piece, they first defended it, they didn't fact check it. there are some, as kat said, some kind of wild accusations that weren't linked to anything like thrill-seeking rich people were part of the protests, they

were driving exotic cars, they saw this as part of radical chic, whatever that all means. of so i think that the times just has to kind of get its act together on its op-ed page. yes, of course there should be divergent opinions, but the times is the paper of record. it has a really high standard, and every single article, op-ed or otherwise, should be held to the same standard. howard: but, can kat, when the paper says this was needlessly harsh, michelle goldberg writes a piece titled: tom cotton's fascist op-ed. now an opinion supported by a lot of americans, as you say, is fascist. there's generally no way to defend the administration without being bigoted or dishonest. no room, you're either a liar or racists if you have another opinion. >> that sounds kind of fascist. [laughter] which is interesting to me. howard: i wouldn't go -- >> they're saying, i mean, of course we're talking about not the government, i mean, i get

why it's not, but just that view of we need to, the speeches out there the or the view is out there, and it's harmful so, therefore, we shouldn't talking about it? -- talk about it? i think that we need to talk about it. if this is a common opinion, which we know that it is, it does absolutely no good to try to cover it up and hide this in the sand. again, more speech, not less. if you really think this is as harmful as you're saying, you should want it to be out in the open so we can debate it, so we can have these discussions rather than just pretending it doesn't exist because pretending doesn't change the fact that it does. howard: right. senator cotton told fox that a child mob is in time at "the new york times". look, i grew up in newspapers, and op-ed pages routinely randies senting views. an apology was not enough, yesterday the executive editor resigned, and he didn't make any statement which suggests it was not voluntary. this after the paper ran a

column which ironically said the anger fully justified, black people have been victims of systemic oppression in america for 400 years, but it also said the property destruction in downtown philly was wrong and the headline said buildings matter too. the top editor has now resigned, as i said. >> yeah, maybe buildings didn't matter wasn't the best headline, but it's hard to see the dumps between what the column said and what the mayor of atlanta said when she passion ately disavowed and criticized violent protesters and looting expect destruction of black-owned businesses. i mean, she was pretty tough too, so there has to be a way to get that point across. maybe the headline was pretty incense i. howard: let me quickly go back, the headline was offensive, we shouldn't have printed it, we deeply regreat it, we know that's not enough, but we are tired of being told to show both

sides of issues, there are no two sides of. again, this impression by some in this other newsroom that there are no two sides to this debate. >> well, the general public would always disagree. there's more than two sides. there's -- we're all individuals, right? this country is based on individuality and individual thought. there's a baa ideal different sides. this headline, though, i don't understand how it was written, and then two editors looked at it and said, yes, let's go with this. it's obviously incredibly offensive. black lives matter, hey, my life matters and then you hear back, oh, well, building matter too? disgusting. i know it's my job with to have words, but i really don't in terms of the headline itself there. howard: okay. gotta go. totally agree on the headline. but the piece itself, you know, did tell both sides. next on ya buzz -- mead ya buzz, the nfl completely flips on

those kneeling protests, and that includes an apology from saints quarterback drew brees. ♪ whoo! don't do it. don't you dare. i don't think so! [ sighs ] it's okay, big fella. we're gonna get through this together. [ baseball bat cracks ] nice rip, robbie. ♪ raaah! when you bundle home and auto insurance through progressive, you get more than just a big discount. i'm gonna need you to leave. you get relentless protection. [ baseball bat cracks ]

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on it with jardiance. ask your doctor about jardiance. ♪ ♪ howard: the nfl has suddenly filled with contrition during the nationwide protests over george floyd's death. commissioner roger goodell is apologizing for his crackdown on players who took a knee during the national anthem to protest racial injustice. >> we, the national football

league, admit we were wrong for not listening to nfl players earlier and encourage all to speak out and peacefully protest. we, the national football league, believe black lives matter. howard: new orleans saints quarterback drew brees who said he'd never agree with anyone disrespecting the american flag at football games apologized onest gram. >> i just want you to see my eyes, how sorry i am for the comments i made yesterday. i know that it hurt many people. that was never my intention. i wish i would have laid out what was on my heart in regards to the george floyd murder, ahmad aubrey, the years and years of social injustice. howard: kat, president trump made this a major media issue three years ago, no team would sign colin kaepernick who started these protests, and now goodell comes out and says, oh, never mind, my bad.

>> yeah. and the reception has been kind of like thanks, i guess, from what i've mostly seen. i saw an op-ed on cnn saying, hey, too little, too late. no thanks. there was a lot of pressure for him to say this and, of course, these issues are weighing heavily on everyone's mind right now. of course not the first time that a tragedy like this has occurred. and now also on top of it just the fact that there's coronavirus and quarantine, there's also the added aspect of nobody can really say that sports should focus on the sports, because there is no sports -- howard: well, there is that too. >> so people have had to sort of confront these issues and really think hard about that. howard: goodell may be mindful of the fact that three-quarters of the nfl players are black. mara, sally jenkins there is only the knee of protest or the knee on the neck. do you think the coverage has

started to change in light of the post it ises and the -- protests expect death of george floyd? >> yeah. it wasn't just that president trump made this a media story, as you said, he made it a part of the culture wars. and all of a sudden kneeling during the anthem became disrespecting the flag. and there's actually a back story here. there's a veteran, military veteran who reacted to the first thing kaepernick did which was staying seated during the anthem. and he contacted him and he said, you know what? if you kneel, it would be more respectful. it's like kneeling before the gravestone of a fallen soldier. that would be more respectful if you want to start a conversation and a debate. and that's why he started kneeling. if we had had a discussion back then instead of just making it fodder for the culture wars, things would have been different, and roger goodell wouldn't be kind of humiliating himself today and looking like he missed the boat. howard: just briefly, kat the,

drew brees must have come under enormous pressure, like "the new york times," to reverse himself. do you think all the coverage, because he is one of the league' premiere stars, contributed to that pressure? >> yes. and, again, i think part of it was this is no sports right now. but i think he seemed really sincere, and i think that a lot of the reception to what he said, he was kind of saying not here's what i think, but also it's time for me to listen, let me hear what you have to say about this issue because i'm a white guy. howard: right. mara, president trump tweeted that he's a big fan of drew brees, but he said he should not have taken back his original stance. do you think the coverage will be affected by what's going on right now? >> yeah, i do. i mean, the president doesn't back down or change his mind, but a lot of other people are. people are kind of thinking deeply about this stuff. the conversation is changing. but the president generally not someone who changes his tactics

or his message ever. howard: all right. march a rah liasson, kat timpf, great to see you. after the break, a look at the coverage of military leaders turning on president trump, avx's jennifer griffin joins us next. ♪ ♪e re's otezla. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. tell your doctor about your medicines, and if you're pregnant or planning to be. otezla. show more of you.

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♪ ♪ howard: the atlantic's editor has long been trying to get jim mattis to go public with his criticism of president trump, and after the president summoned military forces to deal with protests in washington, goldberg contacted the former defense secretary and tried to seize the moment. >> basically just said to jim mattis, you know, now? what about -- how's now working out? because i suspected that general mattis would be offended by a

couple of things about the events in the past week. howard: joining us now is jennifer griffin who covers the pentagon for fox news and, jen, the president said this is the world's most overrated general, glad he's gone, insists he was fired. how unusual is it that jim mattis would choose this moment to accept the atlantic's ini have thattation and say the president is trying to divide us? >> it's extremely unusual, and i can tell you there's been a lot of soul searching here at the pentagon among active duty four-star generals and others about how to handle this week's, this week's actions by the president and the threat to use the military in the street against protesters. i can tell you that there was a lot of, this was not an easy decision for someone like defense secretary -- former defense secretary mattis, a four-star general, and also admiral mullen and others. but he really, by mattis coming out and describing president

trump as a threat to the constitution or general john kelly e to come out and back mattis and say we need new leadership in the white house, it really shows how very deeply concerned the top levels of the military are. and in some ways, they gave cover to other retired four-star generals, respected four-star generals to come out and say much the same. but this is extremely unusual. in my 13 year here, ooh i've never seen so many former or current members of the military speak up against a sitting president. in some ways it's not unusual for mattis and kelly, they both were given civilian positions in the president's cabinet, but it still is extremely unusual. howard: yeah. right. and john kelly, of course, the president's former white house chief of staff. what can you tell us about the current defense secretary, mark's e per, seeming to reverse himself a couple times on whether or not active military should be brought into washington to help quell the protests? he said at a press conference

they shouldn't, and then he reversed himself, and he also said he didn't know he was accompanying the president on that walk to st. john's church, and later he said, well, i did know, but i didn't know what we were going to do this. >> again, much of this has to do with the incredible backlash that both defense secretary esper and mark milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs, received from those former four-star generals. the backlash was immediate. but we didn't know until the end of the week some of the dethat tails of how they ended -- details of how they ended up at the white house, how general millie ended up in battle fatigues that night. this was a very heated discussion in the white house about using active troops. that is not illegal in terms of the constitution. that is something that the president can do. but what these former military officers and both a.g. barr as well as millie and esper were

saying it is this is not the time and it's not an issue of whether it's constitutionally right, but whether it is morally right. that's where jim mattis decided to walking in. i know it was a very difficult decision for him to speak up as well as general thomas, dempsey, i mean, the list goes on. howard: yeah. i think it's particularly hard for former military people to speak up against their president, although obviously some did, because it is ingrained in them to salute the commander in chief. and so this is a moment -- and i'm sure many people disagree, but it's great to have your perspective. jennifer griffin, thanks so much for joining us. and that's it for this edition of mead ya with buzz. -- media buzz. i'm howard kurtz, let's continue the conversation, and it's a hot conversation in a difficult time. on twitter, i've got my podcast, we talk about this every day,

"mediabuzz" meter, foxnewspodcast.com, apple itunes or spotify. we are back here next sunday 11 eastern. hope to see you then with the latest buzz. mug. ♪ . . .

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arthel: people across the globe joining over 1 million americans in mostly peaceful protests this weekend, demanding change and equality, nearly two weeks after an unarmed african-american, mre custody in minneapolis. these scenes play out as mr. floyd was memorialized by family, friends and total strangers in his home state of north carolina ahead of final tributes planned for the next few days in houston where he grew up. hello, everyone. welcome to america's news headquarters. i'm arthel neville. hi, eric. eric: hello, hi, arrest