on the sunday shows over the weekend saying take a deep breath. he is not recommending buying that rally. >> ed: new york city opening up today. a lot of optimism. we will follow it. >> sandra: "outnumbered" starts now. >> melissa: fox news alert. a veto proof majority from the city council where george floyd was killed 2 weeks and that council is pledgeing to take apart the police department. this comes as mostly peaceful protests were held in america including minneapolis and a push to defund the police nationwide. the minneapolis mayor frey sparked back lash for refusing

to support abolishing the police department. watch this. >> [shouting]. >> harris: protestors shouted him down. that's him walking away there. he wants to work on deep structural reform and the trump administration is going after efforts to defund police. >> it's an absurd assertion, i don't understand it. if you are concerned about the racial injustice you talked about and about needing the reform different police department or law enforcement agencies, make sure you are giving them the right training and the right oversight and the right leadership to do that so they can protect the cities they serve. >> harris: this is "outnumbered."

i am harris faulkner. here today our fox business anchor and kennedy herself joining us and a host of keeping up with the jones on fox news nation and fox news analyst. the one and only jones. it's a big job. we agree to do it. lawrence, let's start with the idea of defunding. what will look like. >> yes, it's interesting. many people say that funding they are talking about would go to the community, but i don't think black america will see a dime of that. look, i think so often when we have these debates and the left presents something that is utterly ridiculous, we don't have solutions to bring back to the table. i have been watching "outnumbered" all week and a lot of the panelists last week kept asking what can we do better?

if i had my suggestion for the right, there would be a list of things such as get rid of the police unions. making sure it's mandatory that all cops have body cameras and make sure there is deescalation training and there is an external investigation as well. there are so many things we can do to make this happen. the right can't just say no to defund the police. we have to say that's a ridiculous idea and here's our plan. i have not seen that yet. >> harris: kennedy? >> yes. i want to know what that means? i don't have a problem with defunding anything on any level of government. i think it's a wonderful conversation to have. my fear is that you just add

layers of bureaucracy. that invites corruption. i would like to see some of the money given back to communities and corporations and individuals. i think lawrence is right. you have to start with a police union. this is a level of frustration that has been boiling and boiling over since my most solid memory in 1992 riots and watching los angeles burn. we haven't solved the problem. instead of emotional #'s come up with a list of things to make a difference. what the departments have done so far have not done the trick. it's a nice place to start a conversation. you can't just shut it down. i have a whole list of things they would like to fund talking about a responsible, rational cost cutting, i am all in.

>> harris: i thought it was interesting and i had to pick him out of the crowd for our audience with the 2-stone shirt. that was the minneapolis mayor. the mayor said the way is not to defund the police. it's like he was watching this panel and went there. he wasn't. he went there without that guidance and he was shouted down. what do you make of that? >> in this instance that mayor is not living in the land of lunacy. if you are voting as a member of the minneapolis city council to literally dismantle the police department. who does that hurt? it hurts the poorest neighborhoods the most. you could see crime spike in those areas. there was a bizarre interview that the city council president gave on another network of minneapolis and lisa benders

said this on twitter. we don't have all of the answers about what a police free future looks like but she said he will work it out with the community over the next year. well, it's the first responsibility to protect the people of government. it's in the city charters to protect the people. if the city doesn't do it, the 10th amendment reserves the power to the state. that's the obligation of states to maintain a minimum amount of safety. if minneapolis does away with the police department, the state will intervene in the form of the state police or some other way to guarantee safety and protection of the people who

live there. >> harris: and governor cuomo said he would display the mayor of new york city if he didn't shoot down the looting going on. de blasio, clean up on aisle 7. lawrence, you said i don't think black america will see a dime of that defund police money. why not? >> because they won't give the money back to the community. i have been clear that certain reforms should take place. minneapolis has this problem for a while. your own police chief sued you years ago for discrimination, you have a problem. studies talking about the use of force. you don't start a national strategy and pretend like this is the first time you have heard

of this. i don't agree with defund the police movement. i understand the frustration of the citizens. they failed to make sure the money they are entrusted to give to the community and build not only safety for the community but businesses and make sure the town flourishes, they have not been there for their communities. that's why people are upset and they are democrats by the way. >> harris: i was thinking the same thing in my head. these people would be talking together with no political differences. they are all democrats. your point well taken. you had actionable items for republicans. to shout down defund police bring ideas to the table. melissa francis. >> melissa: yes. [laughing]. you are inviting me to join the

investigation. -- conversation. we had technical problems. it's been interesting all weekend long to listen to different people talking about defunding the police. everybody has their mind made up about how it work. police experts say more people would get hurt. if a community think it's in their best interest and they want to vote for it and try it, maybe i am wrong. i am open to the idea we are looking at this from the wrong point of view. maybe if somebody wants to try it. give it a go. a community votes for it, i think it would be a disaster. maybe i am looking at it from my perspective of white privilege. i would be afraid to be part of a community that defunded the police. that's coming from my point of view with police.

i don't know. maybe it's like when florida threw the doors open and texas and georgia with the virus and we thought it was a terrible idea. but so far so good. i don't know. >> i don't think the black community wants to defund the police. i think that is ridiculous. the progressives want that to happen. the community wants police officers to care about them. i get it. the majority of officers do their job. when you have a city that has had multiple complaints and excessive force complaints. when it comes to a cop that had all of these complaints and they knew about it and didn't do anything about, that's where the frustration comes from. they don't want to defund the police. this is a fringe group. >> they need ideas. >> that's right. >> we have to ask and this will be a different answer in different cities:

what do we expect from the police? new york city we expect a lot more perhaps than they do in minneapolis. >> melissa: that's an interesting thought. i think we expect the basics of what they said they would do as leaders. let's scoot to this. new york city mayor bill de blasio jumping on board with protestor's demands to defund the police and shift the funds to social services. >> we will decide the budget for this city. something substantial? yes, it will be subject to negotiations and the first thing i want to see it go to is youth programs. >> harris: this is the "new york post" calling out de blasio today with this front page image. the headline says blas betrays.

300 officers have been injured on the job and we watched one officers last weekend in an intersection get plowed into by a car. murders sky rocketing last week compared to the same period last year, kennedy, we talk about moving forward, the square where we are right now is particularly perilous. we are on the verge of talking about taking away lawful protectors of all of us. yet, we are talking about when they mess up and rooting out people who are a problem. this is difficult. is it time for people at the top of the food chain to have a real conversation with race and equality in this country or just keep protesting? >> no, the nice thing in new

york city is peaceful protestors have grown in number and drowned out the looters and rioters and violent people just seeking chaos. those people are serious. they are having this conversation. something within them shifted. but in new york city, to the point where i was thinking we want the nypd to not only protect us when we call 9-11. we want them to get the homeless people out of the subway and make sure they protect us from terrorists. this is a counter-terrorism unit. we have to ask, defund the police is saying this is what we don't want the police to do. we don't want them to violate civil rights. what do we expect from them? that's the mayor's job. nypd lost faith in this mayor. >> harris: wow.

i asked that sincerely. peacefully protesting do we continue to do that as a nation? it got us to a different spot over the weekend. lawrence, there is no unified leader among this group. everybody coming at it from different directions. there is room for so many voices. i hope what doesn't get drowned out is the critical conversation that gets us to new answers. >> that's also a problem. we have to go back to government 101. this is what i have been constantly preaching on the network, this is a local matter. it's a local matter. it's up to the communities that are responsible to serve their community to come up with these ideas. i understand a federal task force and we will talk about them later in the program. that will do nothing. kennedy is right. there will be more bureaucracy.

if you don't show up until election time, of course off won't know what the community wants. to de blasio, dude, you have a huge budge. don't take money out of the police department to give back to the community. what about all of those other line items? >> harris: yes. >> melissa: mayor de blasio is a perfect example of failure in leadership on every level. for him to say he will ship anything anywhere, he has no clue. if you follow my twitter, sunday 9 a.m. i am walking with the family. there was is a homeless man with his member flaping in the breeze no pants on. this is happening more and more around new york city. i have the utmost compassion for these people. they need help. the mayor, we have the most liberal, most progressive mayor we have ever had. he's been in there forever and things are worse than they have ever been.

he is a disgrace. >> harris: we will move on. the former minneapolis police officers charged with murdering george floyd make his first court appearance today. some say his actions were a part of systemic racism and law enforcement. what the trump administration is saying next. about making choices. well i didn't choose metastatic breast cancer. not the exact type. not this specific mutation. but i did pick hope... ...and also clarity... ...by knowing i have a treatment that goes right at it. discover piqray, the first and only treatment that specifically targets pik3ca mutations in hr+, her2- mbc, which are common

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yeah. this movingeness thing never gets any easier. well, xfinity makes moving super easy. i can transfer my internet and tv service in about a minute. wow, that is easy. almost as easy as having those guys help you move. we are those guys. that's you? the truck adds 10 pounds. in the arms. -okay... transfer your service online in a few easy steps. now that's simple, easy, awesome. transfer your service in minutes, making moving with xfinity a breeze. visit xfinity.com/moving today. >> harris: derek chauvin charged with second and third degree murder in the death of george floyd is set to make his first court appearance this afternoon. two weeks to the day after floyd's death. some say there is systemic

racism in policing. the trump administration is arguing about those claims. >> there is racism in the united states but i don't think the law enforcement system is systemically racist. >> i grew up in a time when there was real systemic racism. we need to deal with some of the issues and the police department. but it's an easy time to do it. >> melissa: lawrence, as i listened to these conversations, is it productive to sort of argue over semantics, what you want to call why it's not working as opposeed to getting right down to the nitty-gritty of you should not put a choke hold on anyone if are in law enforcement? >> that's why i thought it was so juvenile to just go back and

forth like about what words mean and all of. just get to the heart of the problem. the reality is, there are real issues in policing today. those issues would not be highlighted if were not for the small few people that are not doing their job and abuse $power. it's unfortunate we have to change stuff because a few bad apples don't know how to serve their community and abuse their power. that's what the state does. state agencies and the police is one of them. some bad apples will abuse their power. the systemic issue let's break that down. in ferguson there was a report down about the mike brown case. when you dig into the doj report, it shows you that ferguson, they were policing for profit. right you? wonder why the community didn't like them? it's because they were using traffic spots and the bell

system to makeup for the budget loss they had. it affected black america. that's why they felt like you were targeting them. >> melissa: yes. dagen, it's frustrating to watch this go on as it is to so many. we have been having these same conversations about policing for decades. i felt like president obama had a chance to top down reform or set a new set of rules. whatever the changes needed to be made across the board and implement it on a community level. we have had a long opportunity for that. why haven't we done that? >> maybe you can't handle this from the top down. from the federal level. this is a local and state issue. when we talk about someone 2

dies in the custody of police, it doesn't -- those statistics and their stories and their deaths, but it doesn't go to the heart of the way many people, black americans, feel about their local police forces. it's the day-to-day experience of the citizens and residents. do they get pulled over simply because they are black? that's hard to quantify. one thing we have not seen from the federal level are charges against these police officers at the federal level, the standard is you have to violate someone's constitutional rights for the justice department to bring civil rights charges or federal charges. you didn't see it in the case of eric garner being murdered. you didn't see the justice department bring civil rights charges against the baltimore police officers who had roles in

the death of freddie gray. i could go down the list where there were not federal charges. that's something many people would like to see in this death. >> melissa: kennedy, following this train of thought. if it has to be handle on a local level for things to improve. calling it systemic is not help. because by definition that means we need a top down solution. if it's systemic you want the federal level to address it. if that's not going to do the trick, maybe we have to get started in a different way. >> yes. if it is systemic, you have to replace the system. that's one of the downfalls of this movement right now. the leaders of the defund the police movement can't tell you what replacing that system looks like. there is one group of people i would like to hear from and

that's black cops. you have vastly different experience of the police in this country based on how you look. i would like to hear specifically from black cops and how do their families feel? how do they reconcile being in law enforcement and how do they see racism from the inside? i think that's a legitimate conversation to have so we can move forward. it can't just be the outside looking in, demanding change without any real sowings. -- solution. it can't be people from the inside going everything is fine here. a massive amount of people don't feel like everything is okay. >> the national association of black police unions have been act andive and said a lot of things. the current police chief of

minneapolis sued his own department for racism. that's a big problem. . >> melissa: yes, i can feel harris's next town hall coming on. democrats rolling out new police reform legislation today. will it be enough to satisfy the protestors? calling for justice after the death of george floyd. >> americans who took to the streets this week demanded change. with this legislation, democrats are heeding their calls. here's record-breaking news for veterans.

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track officers who bounce from department to department. absent any mention of defunding police department. how speaker nancy pelosi calling this the startave long conversation. >> justice can only be ashoved with full comprehensive action. that's what we are doing today. this is a first step. there is more to come. in the coming weeks the house will hold hearing and markup the bill. >> melissa: some republicans say the bill is flawed and will only create more problems. >> if this passes the way she described it, you will see increases in crime rates because police officers, nobody would want to be a police officer because you will have immunity problems. >> melissa: i want to drill down to the details and debate those. dagen, one step is lowering the

p bar of what it would take to sue a police officer so they are personally and financially liable for their actions. good or bad idea? >> potentially tricky idea. does it change the way a police officer act on the job? it begins to look at accountability of police officers and police departments. one of the huge issues and lawrence brought this up, civilian complaints in some instances are not taken seriously in minneapolis for example. there was a 2016 investigation that found citizens were turned away from police precincts and discouraged from filing complaints because there has been research written about in the "wall street journal" that links civilian complaints as predictors of serious misconduct. you remove some of the union protections of police officers

and allow citizens to file complaint. can you identify the worst officer and take care of the problem before it winds up with somebody dying like george floyd. >> melissa: lawrence, it would ban choke holds and no-knock warrants in drug cases. this is at the federal level. they will pressure the states to enact similar prohibitions by withholding funding. they would try to do it federally and withhold money if they don't comply. >> this is why i keep preaching on the local level. maybe this will help with some drug cases with the dea or the fbi is doing no knock warrants. that doesn't help on the local level at all. one thing i did appreciate in this bill and i am waiting for the text, it changes the

standard from willfulness to neglectful. it talks about the training. again this is on the federal level. i guess this is a guide. the interesting thing about and we talked about the police unions. they are upset right now because a lot of these people like joe biden were in the pockets of the unions for so long. a lot of democrats that are taking the knee in the capital which black twitter is laughing at right now, stood with these unions. let me be clear: i want officers to be paid well. if we get some of the corrupt cops and we don't have to payout on so many lawsuits we can pay these cops sufficiently. i don't like that the democrats -- i want the republicans to have a plan. i have given them a list of things to research. for the democrats to pretend like they have been on the front

of this issue, it's not true. that's why the police unions are saying we used to support you! >> melissa: harris, go ahead. >> harris: those are salient points that lawrence is making. it did not just start yesterday. some of this is political. political playbook has an article out talking about the divide in democrats with the defund. i don't often use this word, it's ironic that democrats on the hill are calling for changes at the same time they are unveiling this policing plan, some of full throatedly behind and supporting defund. like alexandria ocasio-cortez and others. read that article. this is a push-pull right now inside the democratic party. some may be for the same reasons that lawrence is pointing to. a checkered past in terms of relationships. i want to point this out. i interviewed recently the

vice-president of the fraternal of police. lawrence you mentioned unions. how many times going into this unveiling for democrats or talks about defunding across the country has the fop been one of the people at the table? he said we are not there. we would want to give ideas and we would want to listen. he was less kind in the way he put it because they are angry about it. lawrence is absolutely right. they are leaving out the people 2 represent the most protectors. that's what i call them. protectors. how can you have a full conversation if they are not there? >> melissa: if you go after the police union, that's fine. i don't have a problem with that. you opened pandera's box. go after all public sector unions. do. it i dare you. that's the biggest problem. you talk about the unfunded

pension debt. there is no way of paying it. where does that come? the public sector union. no more no knock warrants. lower the threshold for qualified immunity. great conversations to have but we can go so much bigger. >> amen. >> melissa: a "new york times" opinion editor resigning. the "times" is doing a 180 on this. what this may say about claims of bias at the paper next.

>> ♪ >> melissa: a shake up at the "new york times." editor page editor james bennett resigning after an uproar. the "times" first defended push

lishing that piece, send in the troops. then it did an about-face. after further review, cotton's piece did not meet its standards and should not have run. senator cotton reacted to the resignation, here it is. >> they totally surrendered to a child in their newsroom. this is a workplace and not a social justice seminar on campus. >> melissa: the philadelphia top editor also quit for the headline "buildings matter too." the paper settled that headlines twice. they settled on a long headline. kennedy, i come to you first on

this. >> harris: i am confused about what the standards are. did you know they published from an op-ed from the taliban? >> yes, and from president erdogan in turkey who has killed and jailed more journalists than any other sitting leader right now. i don't agree with what tom cotton said, but i love there is agreement from many journalists and libertiarians that the editor team at the "new york times" needs to grow pair. you don't have to be worry about being triggered. you have to be able to desiminate different points of view and report on the truth and not just your version because someone else's opinion hurts your feeling. it's dangerous.

this can be damaging to free speech. >> harris: you make your money at the "new york times" because you say we can sell ads around our op-ed. that's how we do it at fox. i am a journalist and part of a panel. clearly i am not a pundit. i also cover breaking news. it seems to me if the whole paper is going to be the same doesn't that draw down the value? just give it away. i have so many questions. >> exactly. it's petty of them. first of all, as someone who is a libertiarian i disagree with tomm tommon -- tom cotton a lot but i respect his right to present his

opinion on a platform and i can give my opinion. the interesting thing is that the journalists, the people that are supposed to facilitate conversations, were the main people upset about this op-ed. it's a reflection of counterulator. -- counter culture. they just want to pick a side. >> harris: they should rename it opt out. if you don't agree step down. >> melissa: the whole point of knows is to provoke ideas and thoughts and how people are thinking. the first i think i want to to is read or understand the argument of the other side to

test myself. do. i really feel this way? you have to be able to argue both sides of the issue to understand what is right. how you feel. to make up your mind. why are we so afraid of allowing the other side to make their arguments? >> harris: i have a thought about that, dagen. that's a great question by melissa. you don't have to shout your ideas if they are good ones. maybe they feel like they are being out-ideaed. that's not a word. >> they don't want to hear other yesterday. what the "new york times" did is what people expect from that newspaper. even people in the newsroom. we expect left liberal journalism. at the philadelphia inquirer, that headline was terrible. buildings matter too and then black lives matter and do buildings? you deserve to get fired for

that. your job in journalism is to write a good headline. that was horrible. bye. >> harris: we are moving on. president trump reopening debate over the national anthem protests after nfl commissioner go del responded. what the fallout could look like next. ♪ limu emu & doug [ siren ] give me your hand! i can save you... lots of money with liberty mutual! we customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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>> president trump blasting the nfl national anthem protest after the nfl commissioner roger goodell said he supports players protesting. the president tweeted: the president also said friday that new orleans saint quarterback drew breaes should not have apologized. that doesn't sound like the

president's writing. that's not how the president tweets and talks. your thoughts? >> yes, like the speeches he gives when he is on teleprompter and he is buttoned up and it's the opposite of his rally speeches. roger goodell seems very scared right now. he should be more scared about the liability his league faces because of concussions and they have not protected players for so long. he may have been on the wrong side of this argument given the makeup of the league and the fact that the drew brees comments turned into a league wide wildfire. we doesn't know what to do. maybe roger goodell should be canceled to get back to football and fewer distractions. >> melissa: yes. lawrence, what do you think? i am sort of teasing about the writing of the tweet but not

really. this is obviously an issue that the trump campaign feels like when they beat this drum it works for them. that's why i suspicious about who phrased this? >> some people say they only kneel for good. look, do what you feel i will encourage the president this is a different time. the amount of people that reached out to me that are conservatives that have a little nuance now on this position. i will say this: this is the opportuni opportunity, he is hosting law enforcement today. i would encourage him to host community members. i am not a kneeler but i understand the issue people are kneeling for. the president hasn't addressed that. before you go on a tangent about the people that kneel, address

the underlying problem. >> melissa: dagen, what are your thoughts? >> i agree. silence is accepting the unacceptable. people feel the need to express just sorrow and mourning at this time. in this country. i will point to what nascar did on the weekend on sunday at the atlanta race. the sports president made remarks that condemned racial injustice and racism. there was a video done by a driver present and past. one nascar official a black man named price took a knee during the pre-race prayer and stayed on that knee during the anthem and saluted. he had every right to do so. it's not just the nfl. get ready. >> melissa: more "outnumbered" in a moment. with va mortgage rates suddenly dropping to near record lows, my team at newday usa [2.

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>> ♪ >> melissa: thanks to everyone

on this monday afternoon. we will be back here at noon eastern tomorrow. now here's harris. >> harris: at this very moment, thousands of mourners are gatheri gathering at a memorial service for george floyd in houston, texas. this is the exact day 2 weeks ago when floyd was killed. you are watching "outnumbered overtime." i am harris faulkner. protests continue over the floyd case. efforts to defund the police are gaining momentum. a majority of minneapolis's city council pledged to dismantle the police department but mayor frey doesn't support such a move. that sparked jeers from protestors. look at this. >> [shouting].