>> sandra: will be looking forward to that. the hearing will continue on capitol hill. that and more coming up here on the fox news channel. thank you for joining us. "outnumbered" starts right now. ♪ >> harris: fox news alert, the debate over policing now taking center stage on capitol hill as george floyd's brother is testifying at the hearing on police brutality. lawmakers wave reform in the wake of his death after a former minneapolis police officer knelt on his neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds. >> he didn't deserve to die over $20. i'm asking you, is that what a black man is worth? $20? this is 2020, if his death ends up changing the world for the better, and i think it will, then he died as he lived.

>> harris: this as democrats are doubling down on calls to pass the police reform bill. they say the proposal such as banning the use of choke hold would have saved lives. >> if this had been a law last year, george floyd would be alive because choke hold would be banned. breonna taylor would be alive because no lock warrants for drugs would be banned. tamir rice would have graduated high school this may. >> harris: meanwhile republicans are going after the growing push and many cities to defund the police. >> it is pure insanity to defund the police, and the fact that my colleagues won't speak out about this crazy policy is just that frightening. >> harris: and we have learned president trump is preparing to

unveil a plan for holistic revitalization and recovery during a roundtable tomorrow with faith leaders. police officials and small business owners in dallas, texa. this is "outnumbered," i'm harris faulkner, here today. town hall editor and fox news contributor, katie pavlich. executive editor at serve america and fox news contributor, and joining us and the center, former house oversight committee chairman and fox news contributor jason chaffetz. we say he is "outnumbered." i know from going back on tax, you are raring to go today. i will start with you and there is movement on the, you know, the topic of police reform. what do you say? >> i think that's good. it is a time to look back on this country and figure out how we can do it better. i thought george floyd's brother was very composed and had a very good message.

it very difficult time, he laid his brother to rest just yesterday. i think we need to look at reforms, but let's not kid ourselves. if you think that washington, d.c., is suddenly going to come up with the reforms, pass a bill and then we can wipe our hands cleaned a bit were done, that's wrong. it's going to happen neighborhood by neighborhood, chief by chief, city council by city council, los angeles is going to be totally different than how they do it and lincoln, nebraska. let's be careful to think that congress and the white house can just come up with a set of proposals and be done with it. let's not let this moment to go, let's keep going and make sure we have community policing that works. >> you know, as people look at this and i understand that you don't have to be a race or culture to attack this problem in any one lane, but we did have the nation's first black president for two terms and he did put together policing

committees, people to take a look at this. why was nothing substantially done during barack obama's time on things like banning choke hold's and the like? what was the push like from him? >> first i want to say, i agree with jason chaffetz on what he said. the white house and the executive branch, and congress can put in place new policies and i think they will in short order, but so much of this depends on the local police department, and the obama administration took a number of steps including putting them place police departments across the country. they got them to start reforming by working with the department of justice. the trump administration pulled those back, so that's one thing we did do. president obama did a number of things to try to get these police departments to change what they were doing. to jason's point, this cannot be top-down. i had been heartened that it looks like this bill the democrats introduced may get

bipartisan support. you people like tim scott, mitt romney, and republicans who said there is a lot of common sense in this build. this is a great place to start, but i wholeheartedly agree that banning choke hold does not mean you will not have a bad police officer who decides to use one. it needs to be all of the above. we cannot let this action be the end of the conversation. it has to be the beginning. and we heard that from the minneapolis police chief today. >> harris: it's interesting what you say and katie i will pick it up there, i was watching the representative, and of course we know the role he has played as joe biden has been enjoying a much smoother ride before he got to south carolina. if you months ago. you know, it's interesting, he's not going to lead banning choke hold's. for some reason that's not in the legislation. he's not going to throw something out that has 90% of what democrats want over one

item. i thought that that was interesting, and it goes to what maria was saying, even if you ban choke hold's, if there is someone who is determined to be a bad and evil person perspective of their makeup or of demographic, that person is still there. what do you say? >> i would say there is a danger here, a number of law enforcement experts have been doing this for decades, saying there is a risk of overreaction here. banning choke hold's may sound like a good idea, but i know police officers in new york city who work at nypd and rural america, they both deal with very different situations. while police officers and new york city may need to deal with the situations that they do on the ground of their may be very different than what a sheriff and arizona has to deal with. this idea that washington is going to mandate what police officers can and cannot do without looking at the circumstances of what they're

dealing with on a daily basis may cause a number of problems for the police down the road. unintended consequences while everything is a very heated at the moment, certainly something we have to be aware of. two things i want to talk about today, the sister of the federal officer, david underwood testified today as well. her name is angela and she talked about how the actions of a few are tearing the country apart. she said she wants justice for george floyd, but she believes that defunding the police is an asinine idea and as to what barack obama did, you brought up his record, he nominated sam want to be the head of the civil rights division who was voted down and blocked by democrats and republicans in the senate because of his antipolice record and advocacy for cop killer, who killed daniel faulkner who was a philadelphia police officer. obama's record is not a good

one. i think washington has to be careful about the lion and the balance year of getting justice and reforms that will work, but implementing policies that put police officers at further risk, for their own violence as they risk their lives every day. >> harris: kennedy? >> they do risk their lives, but there has to be a level of accountability. the thing i appreciate about today's conversation is were talking about specifics, a laundry list of ideas that are very necessary and that's the conversation we should be having. when you fall back on emotional hashtags like defunding the police, which means vastly different things for different people, and that's dangerous. that's a shoot first, aim a later mentality where if you put something like that in place and your most vulnerable citizens at risk it's very hard to put the horse back of the barn. we do need to be having longer-term rational discussions, silver libertarians have been talking about reforming police departments for

a long, long time. that has included things like qualified immunity, and militarization, and how that looks in various cities of the police departments. this is a great time, and a wonderful jumping off point to have comprehensive reform that will be meaningful for generations. and i want people like joe biden to be held accountable for the legislation that he authored that had harmed generations of men and families and communities of color. we should be mindful of that actions we have now will bear fruit in the years and decades to come, so we do have to be responsible and we do owe it not only to ourselves and our society and healing these divisions, but also to our children. so they grow up not only in a safer world, but one where they can enjoy and exercise their constitutional right. >> harris: amen to that. jason, i want to revisit a

moment from the hearing. you been to so many of these. you know what it's like and we lean on you mightily because we have seen so many of these hearings that don't generate a change. what has to happen? what are they specifically listening for from these family members, and the longer list of people who testified? or taking a look at it now, but we will talk to you while we peak in. >> i think it's a very good hearing, it's a more balanced panel out there. i think it's needed and the country needs it. i think the congress should have been in session, not only talking, but listening to what is going on. i got to tell you, this whole notion. i've got to make sure that people know the overwhelming majority of police do the right thing, and they put their lives on the line every day. this idea that we want to defund the police department, hats off.

the president said, the organization, they're not going to endorse the whole defund the police. i find that fascinating. that should continue to be part of the discussion as well. to go out and say were going to get rid of a police department or defund it is ridiculous. that will also come up with a hearing as well. >> harris: it right when we went to that, they're on a break so i want to tell everybody as we saw people, but they're also socially distancing. you want everybody to be there, i wonder how many people are tuning into virtually because they can't all crowded into that space. they were taking a break. if they look like they were enactive that is why. >> congress is good at taking breaks, i can tell you that. >> harris: [laughs] yeah, we've noticed that. what you just referenced, derek johnson endorsing the defund police movement sang "i support the energy behind it, i don't

know what it means substantially as i'm talking to people about the concept. i have gone three different explanations. we know there has to be a change in the culture of policing this country." you are just mentioning him. i wanted to pop that on the screen. any final thoughts and we will move on? >> no, this is a very dangerous thing to defund the police. let's get rid of the bad police, but there are a very small number of them. the overwhelming majority we need to continue to pat them on the back, we need them now will come back more than ever. >> harris: we will come back in just a moment, no signs that john durham's investigation and the origins of the trump russia probe is zeroing in on some key people. who was on that list? details next. >> is a going to be eye-opening for americans? >> i'm very troubled by what has been called to my attention so

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♪ >> attorney general bill barr says some recognizable names are being investigated as part of john durham's probe into the origin of the trump russia investigation. the attorney general admitting he is "very troubled by his findings so far and vows they will be made public." >> i think we are concerned about the motive force behind the very aggressive investigation that was launched into the trump campaign without, with a very thin slender read as a basis for it. it seemed the bureau was loaded at the end of july to drive in there, investigated campaign.

it really wasn't much they are to do on. >> congressmen, why do we do need another investigation? the distinction with john durham is that he has the ability to charge people for crimes. he is looking into these things as criminal investigations, any guesses about what those recognizable names are and who they belong to? >> i do. remember, inspector general horowitz has given us more than a thousand pages about the upper echelons they are at the department of justice and what they did. what's different about durham, they could actually charge people, but they look at people who have left to the agency and they look at other agencies. you have a long list here, but mccabe, the deputy assistant director to the fbi who was also on that list, but then you have

brandon, clapper, people from other agencies from the dni to the cia. a lot of these things evidently happened overseas where you know that durham can go and look and potentially bring charges. i hope this gets wrapped up sooner than later. i think the attorney general has been foreshadowing that he is very, very concerned. and that should be concerning to all of us on both sides of the auto. you can have rogue agencies going after somebody in a political campaign. the thing that probably bothers me as much as anything is they never gave donald trump as a candidate, the president-elect, and the president a defensive briefing. something they did with the clinton campaign and others. if they thought somebody was nefarious, they had a duty and obligation to tell donald trump personally and they never did that. i think that goes too intense.

>> kennedy, bill barr has been very consistent and saying he doesn't want politics to play a role into other people are prosecuted or not. he wants it to be based on the facts and whether people broke the law. he has been very careful to temper expectations for people who are demanding that a number of these administrations should be charged. >> it's going to be politicized no matter what. that's unfortunate, but an election year and in a hyperpartisan environment, it doesn't matter who was indicted, who is named, you just have to let the truth be your guide. that is my advice for the u.s. attorney as well as the attorney general. we do need some accountability. we also need reform. if no laws were broken then we need to amend the loss of this can't happen again. two members of any political party on any campaign staff. if what carter page had done was so illegal he would be in jail

right now. he was never charged. the fact that, important exculpatory evidence can be withheld from some of these fisa warrant applications, and this essentially was the basis for the entire investigation. that should be scary to anyone, especially democrats. you have a republican and the white house. if you're worried about the hands of a rogue president, you should want reform just as much as republicans to feel like they were burned by officials in the obama administration. the entire environment right now is still tainted and we have to find a way to clean it up, and that is the job of the u.s. congress. they have to do their job and stop hiding behind politics if you want to be free from a dangerous politicized environments. >> a number of these officials have expressed confidence they have not done anything wrong,

but they were telling a different story behind closed doors than they were publicly during tv interviews. do you think they should have more to worry about? >> i don't. i think bill barr has perfected the art of making insinuations that sound very scary and not putting forward any evidence to back any of it up. it's really easy for them to say i'm so disturbed, none of us have seen evidence. having been in the administration. when we saw a hostile foreign cy attacking us in 2016 with hacking, releasing emails, the intelligence community saw trump campaign officials meeting with russians. something i guarantee you joe biden's team isn't doing. that was enough to be concerning for a counterintelligence perspective. was the investigation perfect from top to bottom 100% of the time, no, but it was predicated on a bill counterintelligence

threat that isn't just about carter page. it's about the trump tower russia meeting. this is much bigger than carter page. we saw the russians attacking and we have multiple reports. >> asked carter page if he's a straw man! someone's life has been rude! >> his life has not been a rune to be very clear. let me just finish. what i was going to say, we set very concerning that was a totally appropriate investigation, and i don't think obama administrations should be or are worried. >> thank you. i'm going to direct -- i want to yield them if you will let me do this, jason, you heard marie say she can guarantee joe biden or anyone from his campaign has not met with russia. i'm sure she believes that. i'm wondering, how where would it have been for members of the

trump campaign or anybody running for president to meet with somebody who is not considered our friend? do you think it's ever happened before? you work on capitol hill. i'm wondering about the rarity of it. >> it happens regularly. you are talking about a campaign volunteer, and it was mr. mccabe, the deputy fbi director who said without this fake dossier that was funded by hillary clinton, they would have never been able to go and get a phis application to spy on the trump campaign. and don't tell me there is no evidence, there is over a thousand pages of the inspector general with criminal recommendations to the department of justice. it's there in black-and-white. to say you have nothing to be worried about, go work with one of the other cable news networks. i've got to tell you, the attorney general is following the effects of doing exactly what he should be doing. >> harris: wow.

okay. thank you, jason. >> a funeral is underway for a cop fatally shot while protecting his friends to her from the looters last. law enforcement is jim back on how they have been betrayed by lawmakers and the media. the criticism of today's policing. >> it still got a shine on it! so do they! ♪

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don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. tell your doctor about your medicines, and if you're pregnant or planning to be. otezla. show more of you. ♪ >> harris: family and friends say in their final goodbyes today to david doran, the former police commander who was fatally shot trying to prevent a pawnshop from being looted during last week's protest. it was streamed live on facebo facebook. his funeral comments as a top new york boss is sounding off on

the media, lawmakers for a police have been pretrade during the unrest. watch. >> if i am not derek siobhan, they are not him, he killed someone, we didn't, stop treating us like animals. start treating us with some respect. we have been left out of the conversation. we have been vilified. it's disgusting! >> as we come out to talk about this, katie, i come to you first on this, when this hit online, i mean it had a visceral reaction from people, from some i should say. and as well it should, but it did not galvanize people to see the idea that many police officers are great people. there are some bad ones among them. i don't call them apples because it sounds tasty and people are

not fruit. what are your thoughts? >> to quote the police officer who was just on the screen, he killed someone and we did not, stop demonizing us. no community wants to be judged by human beings who are within their community a matter which one it is for acting in a violent come of poor and, awful wave. to paint all police with the same brush of systematic racism and other horrible accusations is really unfair and it's unjust. there are many police officers across the country who do the right thing every single day, david doran was defending a friends pawnshop when he was killed by someone who shares his race by the way. and he was doing that because he could, and it was his career, the man he was. moving forward, i don't think the majority of american people

believe the narrative that is being skewed about law enforcement officers. we look at the polling with how they have handled the protest over the last week, 50 plus percent of people say the police either acted appropriately or not aggressively enough when it comes to how they handled those situations. they also believed by vast majorities that the funding of police is a bad idea. obviously community by community has different feelings about the police and their interactions with them, but this generalization is something that is dangerous to all of us, especially committees that police are supposed to serve. >> harris: i'm curious to know, marie, what is a world without support for police, the ones who are really doing their jobs well, and there are millions of them across the united states. just this example headquarters. homicides rose by 250% nla. the number of shooting victims rose by 56%.

that was in the unrest, the date, may 31st-june 6th. i can't imagine what the world would look like if we didn't have cops. and then they talk about defunding police. -- sorry. i didn't mean to snap at you. >> they're arguing we need to take a look at how we do policing in this country and do it better. if that means reallocating resources towards other parts of community programs, maybe that should be a part of the conversation. that is why the build out there working on together has a a lot of common sense reform. i agree that not every police officer should have to, should be painted with a broad brush here, this, it's hard not to make general thoughts about the police when we have seen across the country, many different places, many different states,

too many instances of police brutality from buffalo, to seattle, atlanta. >> harris: wait a minute. >> let me finish my sentence here. what i'm saying is there's clearly something that police officers across the country feel like they can ask with immunity and they to act overly aggressive. this is not limited to one incident. >> harris: i need you to finish your sentence we can deal with one of the things you said. not only is it disagreeable to put all black people and one bucket, cops, whatever. you just said it was. you said we should generalize and you said, you generalized. i'm just wondering what the rules are? i don't think that's fair. >> no, i didn't. harris, that's not what i said. i said every cop should not be painted with the same brush. it is not widespread, it is

happening in communities across the country. not everyone, i didn't say that. it's happening into many communities where police officers are acting with impunity to cause physical harm to people. that doesn't mean everyone, but it's more than one. >> harris: kennedy, you've law enforcement members and your family and i know you feel strongly about this. >> i do, and they're good people, some of the best people i know and people often feel that way about the local police officers they interact with. the problem is when you're painting with a broad a brush, they brush flies both ways. when you have the and if any, any union talking about cops like their saints and gilded heroes, they're the ones who shield bad cops from firing or any sort of accountability. that is also a big problem because if you feel like your actions have no consequences,

you are less likely to control your and paul's when you are overtaken by anger and a very stressful situation. that's a huge part of law enforcement training. some of the bad people conveniently forget that, and they are overcome by their emotions. i think this entire argument has been overcome by emotions and you saw that from that clip we just saw when he was talking about the shine on everyone's badges. by and large that it is true, yes. a vast majority of police officers in this country are good, and they want to protect people. they come from a good place, but one of the things we need to tackle is accountability. that requires a rational needle threading that takes specifics, and it requires give-and-take on both sides. when you have people who are so dog in, to defund the police for some people doesn't mean getting rid of entire police

departments. that's why you saw in seattle an angry mob of protesters marching, they were mad at their progressive mayor because she doesn't want to defond of enough. it does mean that sometimes. >> harris: interesting. jason, next time. you know we love you. joe biden weighing in on the debate of whether their systemic racism and law enforcement. where the former vice president stands. next. ♪ i'm not hungry!

you're having one more bite! no! one more bite! ♪ kraft. for the win win. >> do you believe they are a systemic racism and law enforcement? >> absolutely, it's not just in law enforcement, it's across the board, housing, education, everything we do. not all law enforcement are racists, there are good cops out there, but the way in which it works right now as we've seen too many examples of it.

>> harris: former vice president joe biden giving his take on whether they are systemic racism and law enforcement. those remarks directly contradicting the trump administration officials who responded this way to the same question over the weekend. >> painting law enforcement with a broad a brush of systemic racism is really a disservice to the men and women who put on the badge. >> i think there is racism and in the united states still, but i don't think the law enforcement system is systemically racist. >> harris: it's almost a continuation of the conversation, but it's the word systemic i want to talk to you about. is there a difference of opinion about this, bernice king who was five years old when her father was assassinated, dr. martin luther king jr. says racism is not political, it's not a choice. >> i think it's out there, i

agree with attorney general barr, i don't think it's as systemic and widespread and i can only hope it's getting better. i look at generation after generation, decade after decade and i do feel like it's getting better. are there people out there who are racists, yes. absolutely. i got to tell you, i think the overwhelming majority of people are good on all sides. i think it's sickening. i think it does need to be addressed in schools, and in homes, churches. i got to tell you, i think the way joe biden articulates it is somewhat of a defensive mechanism because of what he did in legislation with the crime bill and other comments he has made on a film that will come back to haunt him on this topic. he has made some very derogatory things, comments about barack obama, about indian americans who work at 7-eleven.

things like this that are really just laughable if not disgusting but i think he's covering up for those things. >> harris: marie hark, do you think vice president biden and a wide ranging interview should tackle some of that? particularly the fallout that cost lives? >> sure, and he has spoken about the crime bill in the past during his campaign and he should tackle it. one thing i thought a lot about with these protests is over the last few weeks we have to leave room for people to change and do better. we can't lay down these markers and say if you don't agree there is no room for you to grow. there is no room for you to be a part of this conversation. i would welcome that going forward. i think the question with systemic and institutional racism, i would answer it the way joe biden did. there are too many examples are

cross our education, housing system. institutions and systems that were set up with racist outcomes. and so how do we get equal opportunity, how do we fix some of these problems. it doesn't mean everyone has been a racist, but these are institutions that for decades have led to really unequal outcomes. that has to be part of this conversation. >> harris: katie, the theme that has been talked about over and over again and it is an appropriate theme, kennedy touched on something that i don't think i had heard put so plainly. that is, there is this shielding that can go a long among any group of people, but are particularly those in power, where the good ones shield the bad ones. there is no accountability in the chain of command. and dealing with that portion

alone, we will have to see what they come up with. we will have to see what comes out of the hearing. dealing with that part of it would make a huge difference. i'm talking about things that are actual right now. >> sure, accountability for bad behavior and not following policies that are implemented by lawmakers. >> harris: but pointing to each other which isn't always easy to do. >> katie: correct, that's correct. accountability is always a good thing as long as it doesn't tar people who are in a sense of the crimes that are being accused of doing. i think the one-size-fits-all policy of reform won't necessarily work in places like new york and other places in america. the systematic racism question, i would refer to black leaders who have a different narrative about this. ben carson, shall be steele, coleman hughes, they do not

believe a black man in america that systematic racism is a problem in the year 2020. do they believe it was a problem in the 60s during the civil rights movement? of course they do. they do not believe now it is a fair argument to accuse every american of being involved with systematic racist system, and they're somehow culpable for the racism of the past. >> harris: it's interesting that you use those examples. i've talked with contributors like gianno caldwell, when they have run into things, david webb is another one, in those moments of racist acts, they experience some of these things and they don't know politics. to give a well-rounded view of it politically i think is helpful as well. people from all walks of life. it's the end of the line for the tv show "cops." after a 30-year run, how many

police shows and classic movies could be yanked a bit of the scrutiny of policing and racial profiling. ♪ >> it looks like he wrecked his truck. it didn't appear to me that he was wearing a seat belt. ♪ , check balances, pay bills, and more. explore all you can do with our digital tools from almost anywhere. pnc bank. eh, not enough fiber... chocolate would be good... snacking should be sweet and simple. the delicious taste of glucerna gives you the sweetness you crave while helping you manage your blood sugar. with nutrients to help support immune health.

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>> paramount network pulling the plug on the tv show "cops" with no plans to bring the bad boys back, the network had put the long-running show on hold last month as protest intensified over the death of george floyd. pulling episodes, live pd with its return unlikely at this time. and gone with the wind has been taken off hbo falling calls for that film to be removed, the streaming service say the epic film was "a product of its time and showed ethnic and racial prejudices." it said the film would return as an unspecified date. with a discussion of its historical context. "gone with the wind." is currently number one, bestsellers lis list. jason chaffetz, how far should we go here and sort of this backward looking at it of our

cultural narratives and the works of art that have been produced, that may be controversial when seen through today's lens? >> if the idiots want to take off gone with the wind but will still show things like pulp fiction, "goodfellas," some of the other things will they murder indiscriminately, it's sickening. i went back and looked at her, she played, she won an academy award for the first african-american to win an academy award for her supportin. she was the first african-american woman to actually be invited to the academy awards as a guest rather than just a servant, and she said she took on that role so that people would no one understand what it was like for a black woman to be that type of servant in that area. i got to tell you, for hbo to selectively pick out

"gone with the wind," one of the most popular movies ever in the history of moviemaking, to say it wasn't culturally right, come on. you can look at the shows that they currently offer and say that okay, these are good, g rated shows that everyone has looked at and are appropriate for everybody. give me a break hbo. they are a joke. that's unbelievable that they try to placate and play to those people with that kind of card. i just think it's wrong. >> free speech is dying, marie. is this the right reaction? is there some other way of tackling the difficult byproducts of culture throughout the decade and throughout our american history without squashing them or pretending they didn't exist? >> i'm uncomfortable with removing them from these platforms. i like the idea of finding a way to put historical context around

some of these works of art, and historical films for example. i like having some way that people can learn in conjunction with watching them. look, i think that's probably a better way. "cops" is probably a bad show to begin with. eco-come on! i love "cops." >> i'm more of a law and order girl to be honest. >> it starts with "cops." >> katie, we only have a few seconds, but i want you to put a bow on this gift of a discussion. >> it seems obvious when you watch "gone with the wind" that it was a different time, i think the context is what is seen in the film that we don't treat people the same way, thank god that they are traded in that movie. i think the context as they are. canceling shows like "live pd"

and "cops" you can actually see what they're doing every day and the people that they're encountering. and think about all the people who work on those shows who are now punished. >> and think how boring it will be in the future. more "outnumbered" in a moment. one call to newday usa can save you $2,000 a year. that's me. there's no income verification, no appraisal, and no out of pocket costs. that's me. put your va home loan benefits to good use. call my team at newday usa. but when allergies and congestion strike, take allegra-d... a non-drowsy antihistamine plus a powerful decongestant. so you can always say "yes" to putting your true colors on display. say "yes" to allegra-d.

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♪ >> harris: defendant police, a rallying cry that some hate, some love, now spilling over into the 2020 presidential campaign. you're watching "outnumbered overtime," i'm harris faulkner. seizing on the calls to defund the police, hoping to wrap weaponize that rallying cry against joe biden and democrats as a dangerous move that threatens public safety. jim jordan went after the movement, watch this. >> it is pure insanity to defund