>> never a dull moment. always great to be with you sandra. >> sandra: you too, ed. that was thursday. tomorrow is friday. >> ed: yes. >> sandra: out numbered starts now. >> melissa: hundreds of national guard troops are on standby in the nation's capitol to protect historic monuments. after protestors tried to tear down an andrew jackson statue and they are told to guard monuments nationwide. yesterday protestors toppled two statues and attacked a state senate. president trump is expected to

hike penalties for those who deface or destroy national monuments. >> the fbi is investigating hundreds of people throughout the country for what they have done to monument, statues and even buildings. we have very strong laos the books. we have a law that is 10 years. that's a long time to have fun one night. >> melissa: this is out number and i am melissa francis. "outnumbered." and the host of keeping up with jones on fox nation. lawrence, i will start off with you. the pet made a poignant visit to the korean war memorial a short time ago to show us why we have

these things. as you observe those who fought for our country and gave their lives. and also just the beauty. these are 19 statues that show a cross-section of ethnicity within the country and within the armed forces. i heard a general note this was the first time in the korean war when all races served in an integrated within troops and fought together basically. what do you think about that move? >> yes, i think it was a beautiful moment. i think the country -- people on all side of the debate don't like these anarchists. there is one thing to have a conversation about monuments whether you are for the confederate or not.

it's another thing to rip statues down yourself and take the authority in our i don't know hands instead of having a civil conversation about it. when many things, i think we are having the wrong conversation in the country today. everything is a symbolic measure and not about the history in the country. it's one thing to knock down the statue. it's another thing to actually know the history surrounding these statues and understand what point in time these act took place. i think that's where the majority of the conversation needs to be. if there are moments when it comes to the statues like we did in my home state in texas, when the history was wrong, we passed laws it correct it and put the right plaque on there to show the right history. that's not happening right now. i think people that are on all

sides of the debut are disgusted. even robert johnson said these are anarchists. >> melissa: yes. i wonder is there a bizarre time to talk about the monuments because we have things of bigger concerns. coronavirus and riots. or is the conversation about the monuments a symbol of the entire problem? >> i think people across the country are horrify ied about wt they are seeing with people taking down statues. a lot of people said president trump didn't understand how history. he didn't understand how much worse it would be with mobs tearing down statues of union generals. they claim they understand what

they are doing. they have really do believe that all of these symbols must be torn down because of an agenda that is radical. the mobs are doing this with so little push back from governors and mayors. the idea there are two standards of justice. some people have to follow the law and others don't is a problem we have had for several years. people saw different justice with spy gate and russia gate. at the city level it's alarming to people. yes, these are symbols, but there are ways, when i lived in washington, d.c., we had lincoln park where a statue was erected by descendants of slavery and now mobs are threatening to tear that down today. these things need to be

protected. >> melissa: jillian? >> i think when it comes to statues, the bottom line is americans should not and cannot tear down monuments not because of who they represent but these monuments really belong to all americans. there is nothing wrong with a new generation of people having a wreckoning and re-considering what represents their values and america the best. no law says every statue must stand for all time. but there is a process that must be followed to have them row moved. there was a conversation about moving some. monuments in washington inside

museums. it has to be done lawfully but otherwise the law applies unequally to different groups of americans. that creates more problems as we move forward to try to reckon with racial injustice. >> melissa: the founder of bet will be on with me in the next hour on "outnumbered overtime." you are not necessarily hearing from the people who it impacts what their thoughts are. it's not coming through amid all of the violence and the pictures on television and even the conversations that are happening on tv. your thoughts? >> in many communities that conversation is happening. it's including a diverse

cross-section of americans. i think a process to reevaluate the monuments with the best way to tackle this issue. i lived in charlottesville and they talked about their statues and some of the fights became physical there it. these communities need to do a process and look at the confederate statues. i mentioned this yesterday. i thought about it last night. one of the first things the u.s. military did when we invaded iraq, along with iraqis teared down statues of saddam hussein's. they were symbols of a leader who killed so many ever his own people and tortured them. so symbols do matter. if we have a process to look at the confederate generals and

leaders. people who tear down grant statues are stupid and are not part of this broader conversation. but we need a process for the confederate statedus. they were traitors and fought against this country. they should not be honored with statues. >> melissa: i am glad you bring that up. maria talked about toppling the statue in iraq and the problem in iraq was the break down of the rule of law. to tear down statues where that was the problem. the people ignored the rule of law and the people didn't have a voice. it highlights why we would not do it here and it frightens people. wait a second. we have the rule of law in this country. that gives us freedom and that gives us safety.

the people in iraq didn't have law or safety. >> exactly. the notion that there is separate crowds tearing down the statues, it's the same group. they don't know the history. they don't understand it. they are just tear down everything because they are an ark yvettes. -- anarchists. you will have robert johnson on in the next hour. we are talking about liberty and the justice system and living up to our values. the statues don't contribute to that. we have to get back on track. it's like the entire country is on fire and you are seeing people take down statues. what happened to the conversation? i think it's a big distraction. >> melissa: that was his larger point. the idea this is a distraction from the conversation that we should be having about economic

quality and opportunity and what is going on in our public school system. about minority children who are stuck in a failing school system and can't get ahead. those things we should be talking about instead. obviously we will have many more conversations about this going forward. thanks to all of you. new weekly jobless numbers out today. and a troubling spike in cases of covid-19 raises concern about the direction of the economy. should we repair for the return of strict stay at home orders? near 50-year lows. one call to newday usa can save you $2,000 every year. and once you refinance, the savings are automatic. thanks to your va streamline refi benefit, at newday there's no income verification, no appraisal, and no out of pocket costs. activate your va streamline benefit now.

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high. 1.5 million workers filing for unemployment. investors looking to gain ground after yesterday's market slide over the coronavirus surge. the u.s. marking its highest single day rise of covid-19 ever. 38,000 new cases confirmed in 24 hours. texas, florida and california all reporting record highs. california governor gavin newsom is prepared to reinstate the stay at home policy. >> we can't continue to do what we have done over the last number of weeks. many of us developed cabin fever. some developed amnesia. we have to sober up. we are still in the first wave.

>> melissa: mollie, the wall street the wall street journal said what impacted this is a lot of nursing homes and large minority communities and people living together in multi-generation housing. the lockdown didn't make a difference. the not locked down faired better. it's about who is vulnerable. what does that tell us whether or not we should turn off the economy again in spots? >> i think a lot of people watching think the public health officials and governors have amnesia.

there is inaccurate reporting about the actual levels of risk associated with coronavirus. there is no question it's nasty. there is no question it's targeting people who are not just of a certain age but in the long-term care facilities. in new jersey, 12% of people in nursing homes dayed. -- died. throughout the country deaths are focussed in nursing homes. they had this idea they could ignore nursing homes and people who were vulnerable but instead locked down the rest of the country. it seems like that's the wrong type of response. we were told that the measures being taken would flatten the curve. people kept saying that. it did not mean it would go away. it meant you would get the same number of cases over a long period of time.

when we are seeing those cases over a longer period of time people are returning to their hysterical posture and pushing dangerous things about children staying away from piers. -- peers and parents who can't work and have to do home schooling. this is something that is harmful to people over a certain age in long-term care facilit s facilities. >> melissa: jillian, what do you think? we have more information now. doesn't it make more sense to cocoon the people who are vulnerable as opposed to blanket lockdowns? >> the good news it's not just medical experts and front line healthcare workers who know

more. everybody knows a lot more than they did a few months ago. ordinary americans like us know better now how this disease spreads and to keep ourselves safe and healthy. but at the same time, we have to be mindful of reality. reality is showing us that whether you believe this is a first spike or a second spike, whatever phase we are in right now, we are seeing an uptick nationwide. 30% increase nationwide. no state has been spared this week. it's not just florida, california, arizona and texas. those states were hit particularly hard this week, but it's everybody. mollie points out we have located and identified a lot more of the vulnerable populations we need to protect, it is still incumbent on all americans to help each other by protecting one other.

i don't think anyone is arguing we need to shut the economy down again. but to pretend we don't all bear a burden to protect one another is a fallacy. >> melissa: sure. gavin newsom is suggesting shutting the california economy down again. marie, i don't know if you feel that makes sense for them again. they know what the risks are. maybe you keep inside the papal for whom this would be fatal. does it make sense to keep everyone inside? >> almost no state hit their bench marks before they reopened. they ignored the science to reopen the economy. the best thing we can do. this is a paradox. we can open more parts of the economy if people wear masks.

there are more businesses that will be safe to go to this people wear masks. but because the president and many republican governors are know encouraging people to wear masks, it's a paradox where it's hurting the economy. just because young people don't die at the same rate as elderly people. the spikes right now, a lot are among young people. just because they don't die doesn't mean they don't get very sick and don't require hospitalization and doesn't mean they don't pass it on to someone else in a really high risk category. when you compare to the united states and our response to europe, italy and countries across the globe, we have done a much poorer job. we failed to take the action we needed to and seeing the consequences right now. it's not too late to try to get things back on a better path.

the health experts are very clear about what we need to do. >> melissa: i have not seen anybody's face without a mask in month except on television. victory lap. michael flynn breaking his year long silence after an appeals court ordered his case be dismissed but a judge is signaling it may not be over. the fbi had no purpose for questioning mr. flynn. therefore, any so-called lies that mr. flynn told were not tied to any crime which is critical when you bring a charge under that statute. now, simparica trio simplifies protection.

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dismissal of his case. flynn calling into rush limbaugh's show yesterday said this. >> it's a good thing for me and my family. it's a great boost of confidence for the american people and our justice system. that's what this comes down to. whether or not our justice system is going to have the confidence from the american people. >> melissa: this may not mean the case is over. a u.s. district court judge sullivan did not move to dismiss the case and he could ask the appeals court to review the decision by this 3 judge panel or any of the 12 judges on the appeals court can ask for another hearing. mollie, i know you spent a lot of time on this. which way do you think this is going? do you think this case is over or do you think there will be

subsequent hearings? >> this whole case has been weird from the beginning. it began with illegal targeting of michael flynn. it involved a special and a lot of people who very, very much wanted to push this notion of collusion with russia to steal the 2016 election. people are still invested in that. this judge has a mixed reputation. on this case he's had trouble being impartial. he was vindictive to flynn. and the justice department determined this was an illegal prosecution, an independent u.s. attorney reviewed the case and said this is a mess. flynn never should have been targeted. there was nothing wrong with these phone calls. all of this flowed from that. the judge didn't say we will stop this, he appointed a shadow

prosecutor to go after flynn. he hid stuff on the docket. the justice department showed this was a whole operation. yesterday there were more notes showing that the operation went all the way to president obama and vice-president biden and jim comey told peter strzok where joe biden mentioned going after flynn for the logan act. they talked about keeping information from the in coming trump administration. this judge hasn't wanted that release and kept it under eel. -- seal. it would be difficult for him to do anything other than that because of the opinion written by the court above him which showed why his shadow prosecutor to keep this going is so weak. it's going to be very difficult. he has shown his willingness to

thwart judicial nowhere else prior to this point. i am not sure what will happen. >> melissa: marie, you served in a senior government position. a lot of folks on both sides of the aisles. critic and supporters of the president say putting the case aside, general flynn has twice admitted lying both to the fbi and directly to vice-president pence. if what universe has it become acceptable to be a senior government official and lie directly to the administration which you serve? >> absolutely. i heard from republicans and democrats and fans of the people who people who are know fans of the president who said that michael flynn was committing a crime here. above that, behaveed in such an

unethcalloway. he lied about constants with officials and about his behavior. that fact stands on its own and stands aside from anything i have seen about how this investigation which was rightly started absolutely allowable under the law. that's the bottom line here. michael flynn when he had the chance to tell the truth, why done he? he is a smart man. not someone who gets entrapped by a couple of fbi officials. i heard so many comments from former officials who say this is not acceptable behavior for a national security advisor. period. >> [overlapping talking]. >> melissa: let me get everybody in. >> sorry. >> melissa: lawrence, talk to

this contradiction that marie points out. there are two element. the criminal case which will probably get dropped. then the question did he behave ethically serving as national security advisor and when he was on the payroll of the turkish and russian governments? >> the bigger question is did the state abuse its power! they didn't follow protocol. the only reason why we know half of the stuff we know is because of sydney powell. a former federal prosecutor. the fact that jim comey admitted on tv they didn't follow proper protocol going to the white house counsel's office. they were told to end the investigation and investigators

wanted to end and others say keep it open. and joe biden said he didn't know about but we have messages showing he and obama knew about it. whether you like flynn, the state should not be able to abuse their power. everybody talks about the conversation about other agents and bad cops and good cops. just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you should think it's acceptable for a state to abuse that power. when we see abuse of power, because we don't like the person, we say it's okay. we think it's a bad guy. >> melissa: what do you say? >> i love this. when we are talking about lying and lying and up on our high horse about what office should not lie, i think of one of my

favorite element of this story. when joe biden went on with george stephanopoulos and said i know nothing about those moves to investigate michael flynn. then when pressed, he said i thought you were asking a different question. he repeated the question of the moderator as he was answering it. he proved he did not the question. i know nothing about those moves to investigate michael flynn. oh i thought you were asking something different upon then we find out he was in the room. he brought up the logan act and listened to comey saying there was nothing to those phone calls. a pack of liars that don't belong in government, start with joe biden. >> michael flynn always brings up emotion on both sides of the aisle. we have to keep it moving. up next the leader of black lives matter movement is speaking out on protests against

police brutality and responding to criticism about violence. he said the movement is working to achieve meaningful change next. >> if this country doesn't give us what we want, we will burn down this system and replace it. all right? i could be speaking literally. it's a matter of interruption. attention veterans with va loans. mortgage rates are now at all time lows. . with one call to newday usa. our team is standing by right now to take your call. and from start to finish, you can do it all without ever leaving the house. with our va streamline refi, there's no income verification.

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>> ♪ >> melissa: the chairman of black lives matter greater new york area spoke to martha maccallum yesterday about the nationwide protests over police brutality which have at times turned violent. he said the movement the burn down the system if it fails to achieve meaningful change. listen. >> this country is built upon violence. what was the american revolution? what is our diplomacy across the

globe? we blow up countries replace their leaders. for any american to accuse of us being violent is hypocritical. we are talking about 5 police officers choking someone to death and someone from the community having the training to intervene effectively. we are talking about saving lives. nobody is talking about ambushing police officers. we are talking about protecting lives. there is nothing more american than that. >> melissa: lawrence, i thought this was an innate -- inciteful interview. as i see more signs saying black lives matter, they see the slogan and obviously they do. so they say this is a banner to

put up. the group seems to advocate for violence with the argument you just heard. what do you make of that? >> i think it's important to make the distinction between the group and the people that are on the ground that are saying black lives matter. it's totally different. there is no hiarchy within the movement. you have the people on the ground that just want justice for black americans. he was brought into prominence lately for his comments on demings who is considered to be joe biden's pick for vp. he said he didn't want demings to be considered for the vice-president spot. if you are a black and become a police officer, you are no longer black." "you become blue." this is his idealogy.

this is not what the people are saying on the ground that just want liberty and equal justice under the law. it's important to make those 2 distinctions. >> melissa: how can we make that distinction when he calls himself the chairman of the greater new york area of the black lives matter group? >> right. i could say i am black lives matter fox news. there is no real organizational structure. there are so many people that just put black lives matter on their stuff. then it becomes their organization. there is no real process. >> melissa: marie, i am confused. i don't know how he calls himself the chairman. the chairman symbolizes you are in charge. >> lawrence laid it out clearly

there. black lives matter as a slogan has been used across the country by protestors demanding accountability and justice. yes, there are these individual groups or people that may say they are leaders in in movement, but no one put them there. they are not directing protestors. they have their own group of folks, but this is not a movement where there is someone at the top saying here is what black lives matter is. what black lives matter means is what the protestors say. they say it means accountability and justice and doing better in the future. for all of the companies that have defined what black lives matter has meant totem and what they put out to people, in the governors and mayors and police department who are saying this is what black lives matter -- this is what it means to me.

that's what the movement means. not what a person says in a tv interview frankly. >> melissa: mollie, that's convenient. if people get killed and things get burned down and it's know an organization, nobody gets held responsible. that's convenient. >> of course it's an organization. when corporations support the organization, they are not giving the money to random people to the streets. they give money to organizations that have particular policies. in this case i want to applaud this individual for being honeffort about his aimings. he made a comparison that sometimes you have to do violent revolution to overthrow things you don't like. >> i didn't say that.

i didn't compare george washington to saddam hussein. that's ridiculous. i didn't make that claim. i won't let her say it. >> melissa: go ahead. >> the claim it's okay to tear down statues that included george washington and lincoln because it's like what we did when we did a regime change in iraq and helped people tear down statues of saddam hussein. that's what this individual is saying. he is saying this a corrupt and racist country and there needs to be a destruction of our constitutional system of government to accomplish his political aim. that's what black lives matter has said the whole time. that's why the group is not loved and mainstream media because of the things they say.

they are saying it's the destruction of the norm and being raised by 2 parents is the best thing to do to keep you from having bad educational outcomes. if you are raised by married parents are likely to go to college and less likely to be addicted to drug. that's one thing that nobody seems to be talking about in this discussion. it's the most important thing if we care about the lives of black people and other people in this country. >> the problem is -- >> mollie, no, wait. i compared confederate generals to saddam hussein. for you to say that is unacceptable and. >> [overlapping talking]. >> melissa: hang on, we are

getting into a shouting fest here. let's leave it there. democrats and republicans deploying drastically different plans for their national conventions just months from now amid the coronavirus pandemic. details ahead. we will fight it out in the break. these are extraordinary times, and we want to thank the extraordinary people in the healthcare community, working to care for all of us. at novartis, we promise to do our part. as always, we're doing everything we can to help keep cosentyx accessible and affordable. if you have any questions at all, call us, email us, visit us online. we're here to help support you when you need us. take care, and be well. to learn more, call one eight four four cosentyx or visit cosentyx.com

>> melissa: democrats and republicans are employing different strategics just months before their convention. the dnc national convention will be mostly virtual. joe biden will accept the nomination but settle were asked to stay home and cast their votes remotely. the convention is being moved to a smaller venue with the audience capped at 1,000 people. president trump will deliver this speech at an arena holding 15,000 people in jacksonville, florida. it was pulled after the north carolina governor wanting them to follow social distancing guidelines. this will be different. >> well, put. it already is in many respects.

we are 6 months out from election day which is shocking considering this campaign has been going on for 2 years since the days when we had 20 plus candidates. now down to the final 2. it's shocking but not surprising that the format to the convention size breaking down to reflect the political feelings about coronavirus on either side. we have the democrats doubling down on the strategy that staying home and away from other people will protect america going forward. you have president trump and a lot of republicans who believe the worst is behind us. we need to focus 100% on rebuilding the economy, opening up as many businesses as possible. getting people out there. getting them comfortable being around one another again. it's polarized. the fact that the conventions

are breaking down from that perspective is unsurprising. >> melissa: and lawrence, another interesting thing to me, it is breaking down in a way that each convention benefits each candidate. we know president trump likes to be in front of a big crowd. he feeds off of that. judging from the viewers that watched, they want to see him that format. you tune in on television and it's like a party. for the democrats, joe biden, he's been obviously looking at the polls and doing well. if you have something more controlled, that reflects -- it helps him. he benefits from that. what are your thoughts? >> maybe it helps with his base, but there is still an energy problem. i don't see people getting excited from home. look, i understand this is a polarizing topic that separate s them on-going outside or stay

at home. both sides should do what is best at them. but you have to get people to show up to vote. right now there is a gap with young people as well as people progressive voters with joe biden, he hasn't been able to excite those voters. >> melissa: marie, if you stay at home to watch these things do you still go out to vote? >> absolutely. joe biden is up double digits in every poll over the last few weeks including swing states. i think conventions don't matter as much as they used to because we are exposed to the candidates on social media and cable news. democrats are playing attention to the public health officials and republicans are not. we will see if trump can get people in jacksonville unlike what he could do in tulsa. >> melissa: if joe biden can

gather 6500 people anywhere i would be surprised. i am back with "outnumbered overtime" on the other side of this break. we'll be right back.

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insurance so you only pay for what you need. what do you think? i don't see it. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ >> melissa: the battle over defunding police reaching a new level of protest raged across the country. this is "outnumbered overtime" and i'm melissa francis in for harris faulkner today. protesters in new york city refusing to leave city hall last night, some camping out in tents. they want a billion dollars cut from the nypd budget. last night some 1500 people gathered in a mostly peaceful protest that did include some tense moments with police.