reports of injury. the marine corps same the police have cordoned off the area but they can't confirm if the suspect is in custody. that's it for ""america's newsroom"." to be with you this morning. >> sandra: you come too, eric. continued updates on foxnews.com. "outnumbered" starts now. >> harris: you begin with this fox news alert. new york city reading in grim milestone as violence rages across the country amid protests pushing to defund the police. the nypd says shootings in the city rose by 130 percent last month and compared with june lastyear. murders of 30%, july up to a rough start with several dozen shootings reported over the past weekend. now mayor bill de blasio says the problem is the current vitas coronavirus. >> as you get into warmer weather and we feel the effects of people being cooped up for months, and the economy has

obviously not restarted to anywhere the extent we need it too, so there's a lot less for people to do. we have a real problem here. >> harris: however, former new york city police commissioner points the blame back at the state and city leaders. >> it's going to get a lot wor worse, unfortunately. i'm disappointed with all political settlement in the state, up in albany and at the city. they have trended back in many respects on the entity that is most responsible for the crime decline in the city. all the political leaders, the attention they're paying to the -- defund the police, where the hill are they when it comes to the death count? >> harris: today's new york post, take a look at this. it calls on de blasio to do something about the violent crime and look closely. i don't know if we will zoom in

for you. the reproduction of the post making the same plea to then-mayor david dinkins 30 years ago. you are watching "outnumbered." i'm harris faulkner. here today, fox news correspondent gillian turner. senior editor at "the federalist" and fox news contributor, mollie hemingway. a host of "kennedy" on fox business, kennedy. joining us today, fox news political analyst on cohost of "the five," juan williams. great to see you, everybody. what a headline, then he did back in time and it looks so familiar. mollie, i will come to you first on this. >> mollie: well, the only thing surprising, i think it, about what we are seeing with violence erupting in cities across the country is that people are surprised by it. we have had a movement to vilify police, defund the police. de blasio himself cut $1 billion from the police budget, and the natural response of some of this -- and

de blasio is right, that the really harsh government-enforced lockdowns contribute to this -- is that you will have eruptions of violence and crime, and we have had not enough thought about whether this movement to defund the police, abolish the police, vilify the police, is actually helping people. much less black people. or whether it is contributing to this violence in these killings. particularly of these innocent children we have seen killed across the country and found riots. >> harris: you know, juan, covid-19, as the mayor and maybe some others in your political party that we are seeing now, joe biden among them, lying to focus on coronavirus, it does get and deserve our attention. people continue to die from a fast spreading disease. however, coronavirus doesn't know race relations, and it doesn't know defunding the police, the protesters in the streets, what their concerns and what they are pushing for r.

none of that really is part of this. these things existed free, and if you're not careful they will not only exist after coronavirus but could even potentially be worse. >> juan: i think you're making an important point. i differ on the idea of connecting what happened in terms of legitimate scrutiny of the police after george floyd's death to what we are seeing now. i don't think the police are not doing their jobs. i don't think the police are responsible for this, and i just don't see that. what i do see, i see that we have a problem here with murder. murder is what is up. it is really interesting, harass, because i was looking at the numbers in anticipation of our conversation today, and indicates that crime overall in the 25 biggest cities is down 5% compared to 29 percent last year. violent crime is down 2%. when you get to murder, harris, there is a different story. it's up 16% in our 25 big

cities. you have a situation in which a violent crime is going down, but murder is going up. even in new york city, you have murders of 25%. as you were saying, in the last year. you know what? it's the same murder rate that newark had in 2015. we have a very strange situation. i think efforts to somehow politicize what is a tragedy of mostly black on black crime, and people talk about the quaranti quarantine, the rise in the domestic violence calls, we don't really know. but we have a troubling situation that i think it goes beyond political framework. >> harris: it is so true. you know what? you and i talk about it, a few of us talk about it. i mentioned it yesterday with the death of secoriea turner. because of where it exists, you have more of a conservation of police officers. i want to bring in kennedy, she look at this very closely and

you have a familial connection with people who serve in police forces. i'm curious, you concentrate your forces where they need is most, where you see that rise in shootings and murders that juan is talking about. but it's a collision point, because now you have them and they're trying to do their job to quell this. at the same time, the people in the street say, "we don't want you, we want to cut your pay." it's a perfect storm for her, really, disaster. >> kennedy: in nypd -- and i've said this on the show very time, it's a different department than others across te country, because they are tasked with doing so much. you have officers who are now retiring and leaving the force permanently, and you have an entire recruiting class that is being canceled. the big problem is, perceptually, their people here that a billion dollars has been taken away from nypd, and the bad people who have nothing to do are now committing

crimes, feeling like there will be no one to answer for the crime they have committed, but the biggest problem is, in new york city, if you are an honest person trying to defend your family, it's almost impossible to get a firearm for home protection to defend yourself. that's very problematic because there is a proliferation of black-market guns on the streets, and the hands of people who know if you like the police are going to do anything, and law-abiding people who want to take care of the families. they are left hostage period in the city we can't go at night. i first moved to new york in 1990 2 i first moved to new york in 1982 and it's starting to feel like the early about 390s. you couldn't go into central park at night. for a long time the best thing about new york city was the fact that they have found the balance, it's been a safe and livable place and that is

starting to erode. i don't think there's a light switch to bring it back. >> harris: i don't know if the team can pop back up that new york post covered. you liking it back to 30 years ago when mayor david dinkins was mayor as well. it almost has come full circle at a time where it was so violent. my question for you, gillian -- i know little about your national security back on. maybe you can refresh us all, i don't want to get it wrong. but there's a big difference between protecting people from a rash of common nonviolent crimes, robbers, so on and so forth, and having members on the streets to make sure the protesters are also safe but also don't get out of hand. those who would be rowdy or act badly, and murder. those are so far afield from one another, you kind of need police in numbers. i'm going to lean on you and your background. >> gillian: i think that's a really important point, it is

something that juan touched on. when he see the murder rate spike in a city like this, in the nation's biggest city, he really speaks to its own individual set of factors. that said, from a security perspective, the biggest challenge the nypd is facing now is not the coronavirus, not the protests, it's not even the morale which we keep hearing about as suffering so greatly. the biggest problem is something that kennedy and mollie touched on, this billion dollars in cuts. it's not just about the number, it's about the fact that these cuts are being made indiscriminately. even the governor, andrew cuomo, set on friday he doesn't know where the $1 billion is coming from. he doesn't know what part of the budget, what parts of the police department are being cut. when people ask him, "how is this going to play out on new york city streets?" he doesn't know the answer. he also said he doesn't know the answer to whether or not new yorkers are going to be more safe or less safe as a result of

this. imagine that, harris. the governor of the state does not now -- >> harris: oh, i can imagine. >> gillian: have the largest police force in the entire stat, and the entire country, is going to be cut. he just knows there's a billion dollars getting slashed. this is the problem one city councils react in a way that new york did and make cuts based on the demand of protests. >> harris: so interesting. >> gillian: without really considering and being strategic about how they're going to do it. >> harris: so, two things. by the way, i can imagine that from governor cuomo. i can imagine it because of what happened with the nursing homes in new york, and how that decision he made to put covid people in with those elderly to house them there, how deadly that decision was. so, i can imagine it. 500 plus criminal-focused investigative-type police officers are going to be on the chopping block. that is according to former nypd

detective pat brosnan who joined me yesterday. talk about where the monies coming from, i'm telling you where they are thinking of cutting it based on what pat told me. we will scoot to this. george or governor brian kemp declares a state of emergency and activating 1,000 members of the national guard, saying, "peaceful protests were hijacked by criminals with a dangerous, destructive agenda. now, innocent georgians are being targeted, shot, and left for dead. this measure will allow troops to protect state property and dispatch state law enforcement officers to patrol our streets. we must protect the lives and livelihoods of all georgians." meanwhile, atlanta mayor keisha lance bottoms faces growing criticism for handling of weeks of unrest, after the july 4th shooting death of 8-year-old secoriea turner. there she is. that little girl and her mom were near the wendy's where police shot and killed rayshard brooks. they were trying to drive around a barrier set up by protesters.

here is georgia congressman doug collins. >> anywhere where you allow lawlessness to exist in a city, whether it be what we saw in seattle or down in this area in atlanta, when the police are told to disengage, when the mayor's office seemingly was just letting it happen, but we've got understand his lawlessness -- and not be contained, it's going to cause more and more problems. >> harris: juan? your reaction to it? >> juan: i disagree with governor kemp. he linked peaceful protest now to the horrible -- i mean, to me, it's just an inexcusable death of the little girl in georgia. it's just saddening. when you see little children being killed. anyway, my point in terms of the governor was he says peaceful protests were hijacked by violent criminals and the like.

look, i don't think this -- >> harris: you don't think that happened? >> juan: out think this has anything to do with peaceful protests. no. i think what you have your situation -- and it is, again, regrettable -- where you have people, sometimes maybe people who were cooped up with the quarantine, sometimes it is summer and we always see a spike of crime in the summer. but you have a situation, even as i mentioned earlier, some people theorize maybe domestic violence. in the situation in georgia you have, like new york, is a situation where we have, i think, a call to the black community to rise up and protest in much the way that they protested over the police brutality and questions about not only the murder of george floyd, but rayshard brooks in atlanta. to me, when you allow the gangsters, the drug dealers, we heard earlier about more easy access -- i think kennedy mentioned access to black-market guns. this is a toxic, toxic and

inflammatory combination. i just think, i wish that you saw black lives matter. the naacp, and others, who put the same emphasis on trying to stop black on black crime. i'm sorry? >> harris: right. black lives matter two blacks, is what you are saying. so, mollie, i hear what juan is saying, but those barriers were put up not by the police, not by people from the city, but by people out there cordoning that area near wendy's making their voices heard. when that mom with little secoriea in the car try to get around that barrier, that's on that little child was shot. >> mollie: we keep being told that cities are dealing with peaceful protests, but we also know that there is violence and rioting in cities across the country. there is no need to downplay that, and that actually is very bad. it is important to note that

these are democrat-run cities with democratic district attorneys who are declining to prosecute people who are violating the law. the democratic mayors are not themselves enforcing the law. they are allowing to cast a flourish, and these are the natural result of policies but a lot of people have been bullied into accepting, regarding defunding the police, not persecuting writers, and it has horrifically tragic consequence. when these things happen, some governors obviously have to bring in the national guard to restore order. that is something that helps communities. when mayors and other people in authority are not protecting the lives of their citizens, not protecting businesses, and seem to care not all about rule of law or restoring order, that is a small step toward bringing that order that is of benefit to the entire populace. >> harris: we saw it happen up in minnesota with governor walz up there. we saw protesting for weeks. it seemed to work. the national guard members are usually from the outer line

communities. that is their home, as well. so they have a different connection then wider military showing up on the streets. we will move. president trump and the first lady are set to attend an event this afternoon on reopening our nation's schools. no one state is ordering all schools to reopen their doors next month despite a huge surge in covid-19 cases. is that the right move? or could it do more harm than good? we'll get into it. stay close. ♪ place that you laughed about

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we're committed to helping all families stay connected. learn more at xfinity.com/education. he used to worry about how to fix the world's oral health problems. - i think i've got it. - [narrator] then he invented therabreath formulas. - you want fresh breath? i'll give you a fresh breath. - [narrator] for fresh breath, healthy gums, dry mouth, and healthy smiles. - whoa, that's fresh. - [narrator] now, the world's mouths have never been healthier. (sighs contentedly) - works for 24 hours, i guarantee it. therabreath, it's a better mouthwash. - [narrator] available at walmart, target and other fine stores. >> harris: president trump in the first lady are set to take part in a national dialogue on safely reopening america's schools today, this afternoon. the white house event comes just one day after florida's department of education issued an emergency order that all

schools must reopen next month for the fall. the florida educational commissioner said this. "education is critical to the success of the state and to an individual, and extended school closures can impede the educational success of students, impact families's well-being, and limit many parents and guardians from returning to work." florida just saw its record one-day spike i in the coronavis pandemic over the weekend. gillian, i come to you. this is something that every parent is grappling with. across the country, schools are closed, how do you do it safely? so on and so forth. florida, with these burgeoning members, making this big decision. what do you of it? >> gillian: well, it's kind of a dirty little secret that no politicians want to address head on. that if children of grade school age don't return to school in the fall semester, whether it starts in august or september, states where this is going on cannot open their economies in any kind of meaningful way,

harris. just ask any parent -- you are one -- in the nation, if they can return to work and do their jobs, if the children are home, and they are expected to be the ones that are teaching them. the answer is obviously no. that is issue that states like florida are grappling with. the reason, speaking to sources at the white house this morning, the reason president trump wants to have this dialogue and i would at the white house is to try and get at this western head-on. it also dovetails quite nicely with the president's own political agenda, which is to get all of the u.s. states reopening or on track to reopen as quickly as possible. if he can help move the ball forward on this very central question, it moves him a lot closer to where he wants to be. >> harris: if that's the case, i wonder why the president didn't start there. why not, kennedy can make it safer for all of our children while some of us are still digital learning mode before the school year ended? and we've been doing that for months. why not do it at a time when we

could support our children when they got back into school? i'm just curious about the order of things. >> kennedy: for new york city public schools, we are still trying to figure out exactly what's going to happen. in new york we started in september, and california, ellie usd, it starts in august. there are a lot of parents grappling with, "exactly how are we going to do this and how my going to balance my job? are the people who are still going to have to work remotely, and will they be able to do that and still support themselves and their families?" everything -- this is what i talk to my girls but all the time. we have a constant dialogue about what they want to do, and what they are comfortable doing, because after a while boredom sets in, as does stagnation. we have to ask ourselves, at what point are we doing more harm than good? in terms of learning, not just in terms of help. how do we come up with systems that better remedy that, so kids can actually grow in their brains can develop and they can

learn critical information? because this is not a sustainable system. we absolutely have to do something, and if florida goes first, as a parent whose kids are starting later, i'm very curious to see how that is going to work. again, this is not one-size-fits-all. it's going to be district by district and state by state. >> harris: i guess when i look at this, and kennedy and i both have a burgeoning pair of teens and teenagers. at the end of the day, it is our responsibility. as i look at the nation now, we are not leading at the top. you are having one state go for it, it's like a petri dish down there with covid-19. we don't know what this is going to look like, so the children are going to go for us basically in that state. as a parent, i'm not wild about that. i know we have to start somewhere. i've been asking for weeks, where is education secretary? 's maybe you'll see her later today when the president and first lady get together.

>> kennedy: they should be handled regionally. the good news is children are far less risk of problems from coronavirus than they are from the seasonal flu. we put children in school with seasonal flu all the time without even a thought about it. children for some reason are at very low risk of coronavirus and are very low risk of transmitting the coronavirus. it's actually kind of criminal to ban children from school. it's absurd that so many people have a doing it given the low risk of getting coronavirus or transmitting it. it's also a cultural thing. you think back to previous pandemics. 1918 the last 675,000 americans which should be the equivalent of close to 2 million americans now. i don't think woodrow wilson, the president at that time, even mentioned the spanish flu publicly. there's no record of it. we have had pandemics in 1957 under eisenhower in 1968, and we do not shut down schools. we lost a lot of people in those, but there is something to be said for handling this,

learning how to cope with this, and understanding where risks lie. risks lie with older populations, particularly in nursing homes. not with children in schools. it is absolutely important that we take care of our children and think through all the downsides of those knockdowns. loneliness and boredom can kill. they cause major problems, and we are not thinking a lot about those things, particularly given the low risk facing children. >> harris: we are already seeing opioid, rising rates of people struggling with drug abuse during the pandemic right now. i love getting every buddy's take on this. we will move on. i knew poll putting the nation's partisan divide on full display. republicans and democrats stand on president trump's job performance, what it means for a nation looking to come together. stay close. ♪

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for the latest gallup poll as president trump's approval rating at a very dismal 38%. that's down 11 points from may. only 2% of democrats say they approve of the job this president is doing. 92% of republicans say the same thing. that is the largest partisan divide in a presidential approval survey in the poll's history. juan, you have just written about this. you have written an op-ed for "the hill" just yesterday with this headline. "trump's base begins to crack." what are we seeing here, juan? >> juan: well, i think there's a lot of concern, especially in terms of what you are seeing as reflected in that poll you mentioned. you start to see people who are -- especially the independent suburbanites, i think, who start to turn away, who start to ask questions. even as i was writing about in "the hill," the white evangelicals who have been at the heart of his base. you look at seniors, the seniors

are terrifically concerned about the handling of the coronavirus and feel that it is continuing to spread. if you look at it in those terms, it is just a wake-up call, i think, for the president and his supporters as to how they can convey more effectively a message, a vision of what a second term would mean as opposed to simply saying it'll be great. if you look at the big polls that everyone's paying attention to in swing states at the moment, again, it reflects what we are seeing in the gallup approval numbers the president is down to joe biden. >> kennedy: if i were an older american, older americans tend to vote, but i would also look at this virus response from republicans and democrats. harris touched on it earlier in the show, andrew cuomo treating people in nursing homes and covid patients like they were completely disposable. i would be outraged right now. mollie, what can the president do to overcome this divide? how necessary is that for his

reelection? >> mollie: i think these polls really are interesting. there's no question have a cultural divide between people who think the country is irredeemably evil and those who believe in sort of the promise of america. you are seeing that reflected in many ways. what is noteworthy about it, i think, is that our corporate media exists mostly on one side of that equation. they control a lot of what people think about the news, and how they interpret the news. you had on friday president trump give this speech defending the country and her founding, a very unifying speech about our heroes, our principles, our values. a lot of people, i think it, really enjoyed that speech and thought this is the type of thing he should be saying. the message he should be putting forth through the election and beyond. what happened is you have a bunch of people in the media just flat out lie about what that speech says. they claimed that even though he explicitly and repeatedly denounced racism they claim he was espousing it. even though we never mention a

single confederate when he was talking about the destruction of statues across the country. they claimed he was. straight up lying. i think one of the biggest challenges in 2020, as hostile as the media were to trump and other republicans with conservative ideals in 2016, they have just removed any guardrails when it comes to being honest and accurate about the actual divisions in the country or the different policies that are put forth. i'm not entirely sure how to fight that, given how unified people on the left are in the media, social media, and otherwise in doing whatever it takes to combat their political opponents, which right now are conservatives and republicans and donald trump. >> kennedy: and it also appears -- and it's been this way for some time -- that people look for opinion and information that reinforces their worldview. i think that is why you see this divide. does the president just have to rely on twitter and his own

social media output in order to get the message across that he wants to? would say he does that perfectly, will he be able to navigate some of the missteps that have caused so many problems, like drinking clorox? [laughter] >> harris: look, i'm not a big fan of only communicating along one line, because things happen. i mean, what happens if twitter goes down? i'm not being facetious here. he has 81 plus million dollars. that's a quarter of the country. a little bit more on some days. not everybody who follows on a daily basis, but people tune into his twitter and his tweets. the challenge with all of that is that it is a one-way line of communication. it is not an interview. there are certain things that happen in a conversation. so, no, i don't think the president should just relegate it to only talk on twitter. and he doesn't. my goodness, kennedy, can you name another president that has given the media as much access as this one?

my goodness! i.e. reporters trying to cut in and cut them off. talking too much for some people. he's not talking in a for some people. let's be real about this. every time that leader comes out of the white house, potentially he is going to talk to reporters. i mean, you get tremendous access to him. then the question becomes, are you going to see what we saw yesterday at the white house press briefing room, with the press secretary, kayleigh mcenany, asked six questions about the same thing she had answered, but nobody talks about the crime that led to five children of color being murdered across the u.s. over the weekend? nobody talking about this spike in murders? nobody wants to ask about that? she dropped the mic on that, i set it on air as it happen. it's a two-way street. if you want to be part of the media that paints the door shut because you only want to focus on your point of view, that's one thing. then don't complain when you get a question and, because you are

so focused on that. i really see opportunity on both sides, for the president and for the media. they've got to step up. i'm sure i'm going to take some calls or tweets. >> kennedy: gillian, some of the poll numbers for joe biden have been very promising. whether it is swing states or this partisan divide, and in fact the president dropping poll numbers. is there a danger that the biden campaign becomes overly confident? if there is, and economic resurgence between now and november, is not problematic for the biden campaign? >> gillian: 100%. you hit the nail on the head. that's what i was going to bring up. i was going to say president trump has staked his entire political career, his campaign in 2016, his campaign for reelection in 2020, even his governing apparatus on the nation's economy. the health and status of the economy. not the markets, which are doing well right now, but the economy. the thing is, in the next four months, we could come as you say, see a turnaround.

we can also see things get worse. that's the great number that is reflected. that uncertainty is what you are seeing reflected in these disparate poles. if you talk to any professional pollster here in washington, d.c., they will tell you the economy is the linchpin. >> harris: all right, we want to come in with some breaking news we are monitoring right now. news conference on coronavirus at pan-american hospital in miami. as you know, he this week has made the determination that it is time in august to reopen all schools across the state of florida. they are dealing with a coronavirus outbreak that has epic numbers that they have seen at this point. we will monitor this as we go into a commercial break and bring you any news that comes out of it. meanwhile, house democrats setting their sights on confederate statues from the capitol building. using a government spending bill to do so. smart move? playing politics? we debate it. you don't want to miss it, next. ♪ record low mortgage rates have now fallen even lower.

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>> harris: house democrats have unveiled a new spending bill, which includes provisions ordering thei the removal of all federal statues and ornaments from the capitol building and placing them in storage. dow's appropriations committee expected to approve that bill on friday. most of those statues are in statutory hall. republican lawmakers have said states should keep the right to decide which two statues they each want there. a senior g.o.p. aide is a accusing democrats 'cause the bill "isn't going anywhere." juan, come to you. what does this accomplish here? >> juan: when you hear trip on the streets, we say, "go to the politicians, let's have a legislative process. let's have quotes and decide which stats use we want to

represent us at americans." there's a lot of sentiment of the country for not having statues of confederates who wanted to hear about the countrd up to date in the modern context. there's not many people want stonewall jackson robert e. lee statues around at the moment. i think that is what's going on. the whole idea of the politics of it is that i think there is tremendous pressure right now from nascar, even on the confederate flag issue where president trump is saying, "your readings are going down. you not allowing the confederate flag to be flown." he is totally wrong. i think you'll see more and more politicians, including south carolina's lindsey graham say that is not working for us. it's not politically palatable. >> harris: mollie? >> mollie: i think there is definitely a unified belief in washington, d.c., and new york that removing statues is without any problem. that actually is not shared by a

majority of the american people where polls show they are not a big fan of removing statues about the past. i don't think this is about confederate statues so much as a general desire to tear down history, turned on american history, and what that history means. the people who were tearing down statues in the middle of the night did not stop at confederate statues. they moved quickly onto george washington and thomas jefferson and abraham lincoln frederick douglass and other people. that's what i wonder about with this situation. it's one thing to take down confederate statues, but what is the limiting principle? the capitol currently has that fresco to press for columbus, it has the doors. what is the principal to tell you to take down the statues and stop at that point? i don't think we have seen, and the larger progressive movement, and the articulation of a principle that prevents the destruction of founding fathers or other people from america's past. >> harris: it's my understanding that in statutory hall but they will do with the

statues that don't get chosen it will keep in storage. is that because they think the politics of the moment will change? i don't understand. if you are taking things down, you don't want to see things destroyed, but is this really a political move more than anything else? >> kennedy: i'm exhausted by this whole conversation. i don't know where we go from here. i don't know where we get to. i don't know if anyone's are going to go, "yep, john bell hood, the fort has been renamed. braxton bragg." i do have a problem with that. i think it's odd that we are re-fighting the civil war right now. the civil war was about slavery, plain and simple. it may not have started out about the emancipation of enslaved people, but we certainly got there. it is so strange that people are just selectively taking interest in things here are there instead of looking at the greater

context of the conflict. people talk about -- we are on the precipice of another civil war? go back and read about it. it was hell. you don't want that to happen again. you don't want americans killing each other. but what they stood for and what we have achieved, what we hope to achieve, that should be the focus to payment. not not this hodgepodge of removing things here and there which ultimately accomplishes very little. >> harris: you make a compelling argument for getting kids back in school, and beginning with history as the first six months of lesson. another call to remove a d.c. monument. let's stay right here, shall we? the jefferson memorial. this time a direct descendant of thomas jefferson himself wants it taken down. why is that? who he says ought to take jefferson's place. oh, you've got to see it ♪ usaa is made for what's next

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>> harris: a direct descendant of thomas jefferson's calling for the removal of the memorial to our third president in washington, d.c. lucian truscott the fourth rights in a "new york times" op-ed that abolitionist harriet tubman should replace jefferson.

"to see a 19-foot tall bronze statue of a black woman who was a and also a patriot in place of a white man who enslaved hundreds of men and women is not a recent history, it's telling the real history of america." truscott says jefferson's home at monticello in virginia is the only memorial we need, because it provides full context of his ties to slavery. juan, i will come to you first. >> juan: i think it's telling, because it's not about erasing history, as you just read from mr. truscott. it is really about saying, "here's the full story." harriet tubman is quite a story, just as a point of comparison. again, not a recent history, but telling a fuller story. she rescued, i believe, 70 people in terms of the underground railroad. she was also someone who was in the union army, as a spy and active in terms of trying to push for the abolition of slavery. i would add that she was also

active in the women's suffragette movement, trying to get the vote for women. i think that's about 100 years old this year. she is quite a great american, and worthy of that kind of honor. >> harris: so, monticello would be the only place, according to that relative. gillian turner, what do you make of it? >> gillian: i don't understand, harris, why it needs to be in either/or. i don't think -- >> harris: that's my question. >> gillian: the nation's capital space for monuments is not at a premium. we don't have to choose between honoring thomas jefferson and honoring harriet tubman. i think having a statue of her anywhere in the nation's capital would be a tremendous, tremendous attribute. i think it would draw in lots of people. i think it would be a great teaching experiment. i'm very in favor of that but i don't understand why we must tear down a monument that has existed for decades already. i think we could add one. a few years ago they added a

monument honoring martin luther king jr. here in the nation's capital on the national mall a few years before that it was the world war ii memorial. i don't know that having that kind of a choice is necessarily productive, but i am all in favor of having war memorials honoring black americans and women in particular. how many monuments of women are in the nation's capital? are there any? >> harris: kennedy, i want to come to this. it's more voices, not fewer. that's what you and i talk about all the time. maybe it will be more statues not fewer. you are take? >> kennedy: i agree completely, i don't know why it has to be in either/or proposition. they're also talking about putting harriet tubman on -- was it the $20 bill? so i think there are places, as we expand our conversation, where we should be inspired by these people. instead of retroactively seeking vengeance. that's not going to happen.

if you were to apply to a day's standards to behavior that we consider to be abhorrent, he would not have ancient greek philosophy. none of it would exist. >> harris: wow. we don't have a lot of time but i want to hear your voice last. mollie? >> mollie: i agree that harriet tubman might be a great person on a more than she has been. she's also someone who really embodies why gun rights are so important in this country, having used guns to accomplish so much of what she had done in her fight for freedom and helping other people. tearing down statues of thomas jefferson's erasing history just as it is with anyone else. we can always use statues to teach more regardless of our particular views about the statue in question. >> harris: more "outnumbered" in a moment. i am in so much debt. sixty-two thousand seven hundred and ten dollars and thirty-one cents.

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for joining us this past our spending what is maybe your lunch break with us. kennedy and mollie, insightful, thanks for joining us. juan, express special thanks to you you can catch him on "the five" at 5:00 p.m. now here's harris. ♪ >> harris: culture war is now playing a role in funding the government. you are watching "outnumbered overtime." i'm harris faulkner. house democrats are targeting confederate statues in the draft of a new spending bill, seeking the removal of statues and busts at the u.s. capitol, of those who have "unambiguous records of racial intolerance." the showdown looms as president trump has made these culture wars a major 2020 issue by vowing to protect u.s. monuments, as he is also now hitting two sports teams weighing name changes over concerns about racial insensitivity. the president tweeted this. "they name teams out of strength,