investigation with nancy grace only on fox nation. sign up now. nancy grace signing off, goodbye friends. mark: i am mark levin this is "life, liberty & levin", it's a great honor to have thomas soul on the program, a man i have followed my entire career as a teenager. but you've had an enormous influence with me and so many other people. welcome. we appreciate you being here.

the events that are taking place in the nation instruction, what is going on in our inner cities, what is your general take. thomas: i must say, i was never pessimistic about the things we generate to the point to where they are now. where adult human beings are talking about getting rid of the police. where they taught me about reducing the number of police, reducing the resources put in police work, at a time when murder rates have been skyrocketing or what they were just a year ago in 2019.

i never dreamed that we would come to this point, it's utter madness. and what is frightening, how many people in a responsible position are chaining into every demand that is made, repeating any kind of nonsense that they are supposed to repeat. i do believe that we may well reach a point of no return. i hope a course that will never happen, but there is such a thing of the point of no return. the roman empire overcame many problems in history but he eventually reached the point where he could no longer continue on and a much was that in the barbarian attacking from outside. mark: you make a great point, i soon recall and it's in one of

my books, 1819 a letter back and forth between john adams and thomas jefferson, jefferson says, i've been thinking about rome and i've been thinking about america and he said the romans could never come up with any kind of government to save itself or the people pray because of people lost their virtue. he said whether cato or any of the others, but the united states is different, i am here to tell you, if we lose our virtue and what we see in the streets right now, i don't think we conduct under describe as virtue. when were here in academia and what we hear from the democrats and so forth, there is no kind of government that can protect us from ourselves, isn't that correct? thomas: absolutely. i just read in the wall street journal some people who conducted a study and defended themselves against critics until mcdonald quoted the study and

then they said they missed used it. they did not say how she misused it. there are so many people just caving in, at one time i was proud of the university of chicago how they handle themselves in the 1960 when so many other major universities were caving in to all other kinds of demands. but just within the past year the university of chicago suddenly decided they're going to do away with requiring sat and other emission test. and that to mean that they want to be able to mix-and-match people of the demographic appearances rather than the academic situation. that is no benefit, the students are admitted without the same qualifications of other students. i saw this back in the 1960s,

i learned that half of the black students at cornell were on academic probation under probation. i knew when i went into the administration building to look at the test scores, it turns out the average black student at cornell at that time scored at the 75th percentile which means they were not qualified, they were better than three quarters of all students who took the test, why were they having academic problems, because it cornell college at that time, the average student was at the 99th percentile, those black students would've been so much better off somewhere else where the workers taught at a pace in a manner that was something that would make it easily handled. in graduate and be on the dean's list. but they put them with the top 1%, the amount of reading you had to do at cornell at that time, the amount of math that was presupposed, although that went into making it harder for

learning things that they could equally learn. mark: you hear the phrase systemic racism, systemic oppression, you hear from the college campuses, you hear it from wealthy and famous sports stars, you hear it from media types, what does that mean and whatever it means, is it true? thomas: it really has no meaning that can be specified and tested in the way that one test hypothesis. it does remind me of a propaganda of joseph goebbels in the age of then saying anybody will leave any lie if it's repeated long enough and loud enough. that is what we are getting. it is one of many words, i don't think even the people who use it have any clear idea what they are saying. the privileges are by having other people caving.

mark: you know, doctor tran1 most people who use that phrase don't live in the communities that they claim to be supporting and defending. some of them have left those communities, never to return except on thanksgiving to hand out turkeys. others through their money into these communities to school or so forth, they don't live there or send their kids to school there, they live among the systemically racist i suppose, and isn't this part of the problem with the marxist left, their absolute hypocrites. they claim that they want equality for all, they claim that that the big weathering of the state, the police department reimagine law enforcement and so forth and so on, every time you look at a marxist state, it's an authoritarian centralized policing. is it not? thomas: absolutely. and trying to get away from social class differences. they create their own who have their own stores that they alone

can shop in, their own medical facilities, they own everything. mark: i want to know if you agree with me or not, you don't have to obviously. i see the 1860 election in the 1864 election are the two most important elections in american history. now i see 2020 as one of the most important elections in history, even apart from the candidates. we are talking about the 1776 project versus the 1619 project and you can see where the democrats have tied into the 1619 project in many of the republicans are trying to defend the founding and the 1776 project. do you see it that way? thomas: what i see is if the election goes to biden then there is a good chance that the democrats will then control all two branches of congress and the

white house in the kinds of things that they are proposing, that can well mean in the point of no return. mark: that is why i consider the selection different than a lot of elections. i feel like we are on the edge. you have written a fantastic book, charter schools and their enemies, which is the kind of books that you write, the kind of thinking you've had your entire life when i used to watch you with bill buckley in the great milton freedman and others and it is this. you believe in liberty, you believe in competition, you believe in choice, you believe in ideas, you do not believe in physical impediments, whether skin, religion or whatever it is. in other words you believe in the american dream and you view charter schools as part of the potential for liberating our inner cities and getting poor kids educated, i want to get

into that in more detail but why is this so hard to do in our inner cities. to give poor mostly minority kids and their parents opportunities to go to schools other than the government building that happens to be right down the block? thomas: it is because you have a very powerful vested interest in the traditional public school system as it is. charter schools are the greatest threat to that. i was frankly surprised at the different, the magnitude of the different between being educated and charter schools and those who are being educated in traditional public schools in the very same neighborhood and in the very same building. i have a huge amount of data in the book based on that particular situation. where the charter school in the traditional public school in the

neighborhood are in the very same building and have some of the very same gratings. you can compare how the third-graders in one school in the third grade in the others, most of them in 90 plus% minority students, both of them from low-income families and all the rest of it. when i did that, i found for example the mathematics, 10% of the children educated in the traditional public schools, in the building past the mathematics test compared to 60% of the charter schools in the very same building. i did not expect that level of disparity but there was for more than 100 schools that i looked at in new york containing more than 23000 students. mark: when we return doctor

sowell, i want to ask why are charter schools in the hole so successful when it comes to their students. in government run public schools so less successful. we'll be righththththt [♪] when you have diabetes, managing your blood sugar is crucial. try boost glucose control. the patented blend is clinically shown to help manage blood sugar levels. it provides 60% more protein than the leading diabetes nutrition shake. try boost glucose control. a lot of folks ask me why their dishwasher doesn't get everything clean. i tell them, it may be your detergent... that's why more dishwasher brands recommend cascade platinum... ...with the soaking, scrubbing and rinsing built right in. for sparkling-clean dishes, the first time. cascade platinum. it's like walking into the chocolate factory and you won a golden ticket. all of these are face masks. this looks like a bottle of vodka. but when we first got these, we were like whoa! [laughing] my three-year-old, when we get a box delivered, screams

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mark: welcome back doctor thomas so well, you the charter schools in their enemies. , why are charter schools, and really nongovernment schools much more successful than these government schools. the government schools get a ton of money. they get all the attention from the political elites, they get all the support that they could possibly need, in my opinion, as charter schools and others are like this stepchild if you will. what is your take on that? thomas: they operate under completely different incentives and constraints. the traditional public school are really a world on their own unlike most other institutions. most institutions whether sports or medical institutions, churches, automobiles, whatever. they can only survive as institutions to the extent that they can attract her clientele. traditional public schools don't

have background. the attendance laws automatically supply them with the clientele. whether the clientele wants to be there or not. in giving each school its own geographic monopoly, its own geographic area means they don't even have to compete among themselves. the competition is enormously important because human beings are so valuable. if you insulate people from paying the price of being wrong, you will get a lot of wrong things done. in particular you will get institutions being run for the benefit of those who run the institutions rather than the clientele that is designed to help. in the case of the charter schools, it is like so many other businesses are institutions, they -- know when is assigned to go to a charter school above the attendance laws, the students are all

volunteers or their parents or volunteers. so the charter school must produce what will keep the students coming in or they will go out of business. even on those conditions, you attract an entirely different kind of person who is teaching profession elsewhere. in the traditional public schools, the teachers are practically impossible to fire no matter how bad they are. in charter schools of the teachers can't teach the kids, nobody cares how many degrees they had or college or any of that stuff. mark: so there is an enormous institutional opposition to charter schools to competition, it comes from the teachers union which is enormously powerful which is a campaign funding source for local state and federal democrats. so they basically collude to prevent the option of charter schools and other options being

available particular in the inner cities and the parents in the inner cities, what would they like to do. do they like to send their kids to charter schools? thomas: in new york city there are 50000 students in traditional public schools with on waiting list to get in charter schools. if those 50000 students were able to transfer if they want to and each child a new york city, the state spends more than $20000 a year on them and if you do the arithmetic, that comes out to more than one begin dollars a year that would move from the traditional public school to the charter school if the students were able to transfer and obviously job number one for the teachers union and for the officials of the traditional public school and to prevent those students from transferring even though they have a legal right to in

one of the ways to do that is to have a fixed number of charter schools set up beyond which they cannot go. we are in a situation last year where the federal government gave the success academy charter school more than $9 million in ordinarily they just go ahead and expand into other buildings and so on but because they're up against arbitrary number, they cannot do much among the other ways in other cities especially with the population has gone down over years, there are vacant schools that have been vacant for years in the local authority prevent the charter schools from using those blanket buildings because they are able to have more classrooms and they can take students up there waiting list in what's more important to them the money would move to the charter schools. mark: this is incredible to me.

your president trump that causes a civil rights issue, he has been talking about this for a long time in these made efforts to expand it and they funded efforts to expand it through grants and so forth, then you have the democrat party that is absolutely against this, you will barack obama the first african-american president, was the first thing he does, he puts a bosch on school choice, he opposes school choice. is this a civil rights issue or the democrats going to get away with the constant monopoly control over school system? thomas: it depends, just recently joe biden said to the teachers unions when he becomes president, teachers will be the number one priority in the schools. which is an extreme restatement when you think about it, children are supposed to be the number one priority, if you have

situations where the teachers have ironclad tenure on their job and there's all kinds of horror stories that can be told, then they have no incentive, they get paid regardless and whether students learn or not. in the charter schools, particularly the successful ones, teachers who get good results from the students move up in the ones who do not move out. mark: do you think, i'm not generally a fan of antitrust laws, do you think they should be applied to public-sector unions, i'm thinking they should, figure to be applied throughout our society on the business and corporate side of things, if one toaster what company wants to buy another toaster company has to be reviewed by the department of trust justice in the antitrust union and when it comes to teaching our children we have assisted control over the school systems and i'm not sure how else we can break through.

as you quote biden, the teachers unions have the run of the place. thomas: yes, i am not a legal authority but i believe some years ago there was a law, made a century or year ago, would not legal and conspiracy in restraint of trade, that way it is not going to go but if they would just make the charter schools have equal treatment, when the urge students you provide classrooms for them. new york city for example, just recent years tells there's 212 public schools that are half empty in the charter school people are having a terrible time getting into those places because all kinds of robots are

put up. in some points of the country empty schoolhouses have been demolished to make sure charter schools cannot get in there. mark: there just needs to be away to bring a liberty agenda. some kind of agenda into the inner cities that are controlled by these parties and controlled by the sources for half a century and you're right about the antitrust laws, the units were specifically exempted, i just think they have to update them to reality to what is going on in this country today. when we return, isn't it true doctor sowell that we have towns and states passing legislation to make it more and more difficult as a fundament of charter schools. we'll be right guys, times are tough. but force factor's test x180 can help us man up, america, by boosting total testosterone. build muscle, fuel desire, and improve performance. get test x180 from force factor, the #1 fastest-growing men's health brand

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live from america's news headquarters. 21 people have been injured including 17 sailors after an explosion on board a ship at the naval base in san diego. uss bonhomme richard is ablaze and has been for the last 11 hours. everyone injured received minor injuries and are expected to recover. they had just completed regular maintenance before it caught on fire. >> the pandemic in large cities like miami, orlando and

west palm beach has reached a new high. the previous high was 12000 back in new york. breaking the last half hour, the washington redskins are expected to retire their name after protests against racial discrimination. no word on what the new name will be but the change is expected to take place on monday. now back to the show. ♪. mark: welcome back, doctor sowell the turn of the last century, they had an enormous impact on public education, they said teaching basic, that is not it. you have to teach the social impact, the social activism and the effects of math and social studies with the community. and you see the consequences of that over the last century and it is getting worse, it is not getting better. he had enormous influence as you

know, my question to you, is charter schools versus government or public schools, are charter schools more focused on getting kids to learn the basics of literature in english and mathematics and science as opposed to the public schools that are into the social activism stuff? thomas: yes. in fact that is one thing that the critics complain of, and california there were charter school laws passed last year that forced the charter schools to essentially carry indoctrination courses in the content of those courses we specify. in california in recent years, they have already mandated that the charter schools peak sex education. but what is indoctrination of what is thought to be the best

attitude or more advanced attitude toward sex. this is to be taught at an early age and in ways that are absolutely grotesque in some cases. mark: have a patriotism. basic allegiance to the country, i mean everybody does not have to agree on everything and everybody knows history is full of positives and negatives but i get the sense particular in the last several months, i think a lot of the audience does to, a lot of the hostility toward the country, the founders, the founding documents and so forth that the breeding grounds for this is in public education. thomas: absolutely. if you are serious about mathematics, the english language, science, things like that, you cannot squander the time of schoolchildren on these other adventures indoctrination in almost regardless of what the

indoctrination is. especially with kids of low-income areas where their parents may not have so much education of other people in other parts of the society. these students need a real grounding in many of these charter schools, that is what they get. also, they have to have behavioral standard, you cannot teach in the school. in california last two they passed incredible laws that specify that citizens in the early grades cannot be suspended for disrupting classes or the activities in the school. so what you're saying, you're in licensing troublemaking. and the reason for doing so is simply one of many ways that charter schools can be kept from becoming so much better than the

traditional public schools. it would be a lot harder to raise the traditional public school up to the level of charter schools but it's a lot easier to bring the charter schools down to the level of traditional public schools. mark: let me ask you a broader question, it seems to me when we were raising our kids too. you better damn well look at the textbooks that your kids have, you better look at the lesson plans and question them about what they're learning in the classroom when they go to the public schools as parents, not just keep funding and funding the increases for teachers and god knows what else goes on in these public classrooms, in other words parents need to be active, not active as captured activist on behalf of of the school system but on half of their children and find out what the world is going on in these classrooms and make noise when they find out there kids are being brainwashed. i don't see enough of that, do you? thomas: no. again complication would take care of a lot of that.

among other things, it parents would send the kids in charter schools they say they are safer there, physically safer. they learn good behavior and so on. so you have to have all of those things. and that will take care of itself. most of the parents are going to move their kids in many say that the real problem, they will move their kids out of the traditional public schools. why there are so many devious ways that are used to keep the kids from being able to transfer. mark: i think there needs to be a total rethinking the public education. one of the areas as you pointed out his competition, charter schools and other types of schools, private schools, parochial schools, voucher systems, whatever you can put into the system that gives children and opportunities and parent opportunities. but the whole notion that you

hear all the time that the teachers are not paid enough, the school district as i have enough money, we need to build new schools, everyone buys and because they think that will improve quality of education, maybe it's time for people and communities to say no, we demand choices and alternatives and otherwise we believe in wanting to defund the cops, how about defund the school system and thus the responsive to us, what do you think about that? thomas: i think it's a good idea. we don't have to worry about that for example in supermarkets. the public doesn't have to worry about what their supermarket does or that supermarket does, they go to the supermarket that satisfies them. in that calm pushes the purpose. so if you find the quality that is kept up just by the competition but teachers and the institutions are so protected from any hit of competition, this is why they can get away from running the institution for

their benefit rather than the benefit of the other students. mark: when we return i want to ask you this question. we are talking mostly about the inner cities, we are talking mostly hear about minority students, not exclusively but mostly. as a continued opposition to allowing freedom of choice to go to better schools and get a better education of the sacred environment, is becoming a matter of bigotry. matter of bigotry. i'm just c c c c c i am totally blind. and non-24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. talk to your doctor, and call 844-214-2424.

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unless we fix this and really take an effort to reform this as a nation, the same thing will happen and in fact it will get worse and worse from generation to generation which leads me too my question doctor sowell, generation to generation, the same thing over and over again, big government schools, centralization, the democrat party with the unions, the unions feeding the democrat party and vice a versa in order to break this. most of what we are talking about is happening in cities and most of what were talking about is happening in inner cities, poor areas, majority, minority areas. can we call this bigotry? thomas: i don't think it's so much ideological as it is self interest. some of the officials who try to block and have succeeded in blocking charter schools for using vacant buildings that have been vacant for years, i have said we cannot be helping out

competition. so you put the people who are in charge of the existing system in charge of making rules for charter schools and they make such rules as will prevent those students from being able to get into the charter schools. they are focused. the oral argument, it is not broke don't fix it. the model for herder schools, if it ain't broke then break it. because otherwise. mark: you think this will be tolerated in other communities, poor communities, people cannot leave in many cases. they are in mobile because of financial reasons and other reasons and other parts of the country, people get up and leave or pick their home based on the school system. this is why raise the issue, the left-wing white woman, i watched joe biden, he has become left wing, white guy, i see nancy pelosi and schumer and all these

people and then i see a leftist who are also black who are part of this collusion but still if there is quote unquote systemic racism, it seems to me that is nonsense. but it seems to be when you look at the inner cities, something systemic is going on. not it's in their best interest but applicable mostly to one group of people. particular black people. thomas: wherever the family income sign-up for people can afford private schools, the parents know the traditional public schools know that. so there will be some quality level maintained in those communities likely because there is always the implicit threat that they will lose students which means they will lose money and they will lose jobs. so the circumstances are

dramatically different. one of the reasons they are fighting so much to prevent what kids from going to parochial schools with government support is not so much about religion, it's about the fact that traditional catholic schools are low enough tuition that people moderate income can afford with a little sacrifice to send their kids there. that produces competition and what they don't want above all else is competition. mark: isn't this what we see really across-the-board or almost across-the-board with the left, that is whether healthcare, no competition. whether it is other activities, no competition. whether it is schooling, no competition. even when you get to the universities and colleges which there is thousands, they demand adherence to an ideology, the demand adherence to a set of

standards. and free speech, freedom of association, depending on who's doing the speaking and doing the associating is supported or opposed. isn't this a problem across-the-board when it comes to the left? thomas: absolutely. in my career, i have seen it develop and when i was teaching at cornell in 1965, we had people of all kinds equations just for the economic department. when i left it was an orthodoxy that was put in there and if you did not agree with it, you were out of luck. in terms of your career. i saw young wonderful woman who stood up for the standards of academic and the standards of

behavioral standards. they not only fired her, they made it impossible for her to get another job anywhere else. mark: this is happening in an extreme way right now as a result of last month with antifa black lives matter seen it happen across our culture in our society. society. we'l'l'l'l'l it only takes a second for an everyday item to become dangerous. tide pods child-guard pack helps keep your laundry pacs in a safe place and your child safer. to close, twist until it clicks. tide pods child-guard packaging.

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mark: welcome back we are talking about the future of american education. the fabulous new book by doctor sowell, "charter schools and their enemies". doctor sowell, what are the dangers charter schools face as we go ahead. thomas: all across the country there are attempts to force charter schools to follow rules that will make it difficult if not impossible for them to maintain the quality they already have. i mentioned in california were you simply cannot suspend students for doing things for which at one time would've been expelled. in new york for example, i was painfully surprised to discover the chip charter schools which are the largest chain in the

country have gotten rid of their motto that says be nice, pay attention and support. that is considered politically incorrect because it suggests that the problems of minority students is not systemic racism and things like that, over the past year or so they have been talking more and more of the language of the political left and finding schools in both cases, how long will that continue. they don't understand the dangers when you allow internal changes in external obstacles to pileup, that means even though charter schools may survive institutions, they may not survive excellent institutions which is what matters to the kids pre-something similar

happen for a very different reason, black high school in washington which for more than 70 years had outstanding educational outcomes and they changed this one thing, they cha neighborhood school rather than a school that could draw students from all over the city pre-just that one fact caused them in a short period of time to go from a school where 81%, this is an all-black school, 81% of the students went on to college, that time in 1953 was a higher percentage than any of the high school black-and-white in the city of washington. just by 1960 only 20% were going on to college. and today it's one of the worst types of schools. it is not a matter of the charter schools surviving as institutions.

it is the educational quality surviving. that is what the enemies of the charter school are undermining. mark: and never surprises me, the level deviousness on the left and in the bureaucracy because what you're describing their is just destroying these institutions from within, if you cannot beat them then devour them. and you are right, that is very sinister and it is a big problem. i want to thank you for writing this magnificent book, "charter schools in their enemies". i will strongly encourage the audience to get a copy whether you have kids are not or live in the inner cities or not. this lays out the case. i want to thank you for career that is influenced so, so many of us and because of liberty, i would not be doing what i am today in part if it was not for watching you and reading your books and all the things you have done for this country. i want to thank you, doctor thomas sowell. thomas: thank you.

mark: take care of

and because we don't know exactly when this crisis is going to be over and we don't know exactly when the stock market will reach its bottom, we've got to be prepared for this to last a long time. if you assume that you're out of work for nine months but you end up only being out of work for three, well that's great. but if you think you're going to be furloughed for three months and it lasts for nine, well that'll be emotionally devastating. so, we've got to prepare ourselves. tangibly and practically, as well as psychologically and emotionally.

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mark: welcome back. it amazes me when i stand back and watch what goes on in it amazes me when i stand back and watch what goess on, the president tax returns which are meaningless to the american people, the only meaningful to the democrats who want to club them over the head. we see other debates going on what needed in the cities and systemic racism from lebron james comment on it in hollywood actors and john lennon and media types know nothing about it, so disconnected. yet, we have this issue. basic education. learning arithmetic, literature and english and science and

history, the things that are needed to get along in society and assimilate into the culture. what we have? democrat party and national education association and american federation of teachers, is conglomerate monopoly that controls our cities and all education will particular the cities cds were many people are too poor and are told you're going to go to the whether or not your kid is right and, whether they educated, whether or not you like it. in america, what we need is a liberty agenda, a constitutional agenda. we need a true two-party system in the inner cities and cops to protect our people. we need capitalism to create wealth, all the things that of the countryst applied to the inner cities run by the democrats and their surrogates.

joe biden is running on bernie sanders agenda. that's the anti- liberty, anti- choice agenda, the agenda of the iron fist. think about it. i'll see youou next time. ♪ . steve: good evening welcome to "the next revolution", i am steve hilton. pro work, pro-family, pro-america. joining us for the hour sara carter and jason chafe's. tonight congressman jim banks will be here on reopening schools, we have joe biden loony left in your feedback to the president. after last week for politic patriotism. first, coronavirus, misinformation is fiercely hurting america as the establishment media hikes case numbers as only major. >> today the country