will be. -- a moment it will be. the weather is beautiful in cleveland. bill, great to be with you. >> bill: and to you. see you in new york. >> sandra: "outnumbered" starts right now. >> ♪ >> ♪ >> melissa: we are just hours away from a pivotal moment in the 2020 campaign. i can feel the excitement. as president trump and former president jimmy carter will take the stage tonight in cleveland for their very first debate. there appears to be a stark contrast in how the two candidates are gearing up for the showdown. the president said he didn't want to overdo it with debate prep. biden stayed off the campaign trail for the past few days to hold mock debate sessions. biden's running mate kamala harris on what to expect tonight. >> he's been on that debate

stage so many times and he is so good. he will speak directly to the american people understanding what their needs are. he will talk about facts and about solutions. i think that's what the people deserve. >> melissa: but the white house press secretary kayleigh mcenany says president trump got more than enough debate prep dealing with the media. >> the president had a few prep sessions with mayor rudy giuliani and governor chris christie. the president takes gruelling questions every day from the white house press corp. he is the most transparent president in history. >> melissa: negotiations over tonight's debate and future debates continue. the trump campaign is requesting to have third party inspectors

to check both candidate's ears for electronic transmitters. this is "outnumbered." i am melissa francis and harris faulkner. and martha maccallum. also with us executive director of fox news contractor marie hart and joining us for the first time today the chief the staff for george w. bush who worked on the 2004 bush white house campaign. fox news contributor karl rove. we are so happy you are joining us, karl. you are in cleveland. i want to ask martha, since you are the reporter on the ground there. are you hearing this back and forth? we are just getting this news. the president wants everyone to look in the ears or someone

unbiassed, a neutral source to look in the ears of both candidates to see if there is a device. joe biden said no way. the biden camp asked for breaking news and president trump said no way. john roberts reporting that these negotiations are on-going. what is your take on this? is this about getting inside the other guy's head? >> yes, bingo, that's what it's about. bathroom breaking news, transmitters and drugs. that's where we are right now in the back and forth. what you are seeing is the debate equivalent of trash talking before a game. if joe biden comes out there does a great job, you have a narrative ready to go. he must have been on something or somebody giving him answers in his ears. the trump campaign said we will submit to all of these things. why aren't you? the biden campaign said we are

not. that's the narrative today. how joe biden will perform is one of the biggest questions of tonight. it's a 90 minute debate. it's a long back and forth. his side did ask if they could have two breaking news over the course of the 90 minutes. that request was denied. trump team said our guy does 90 minutes at rallies 3 times a week. you see both sides. the opponents trying to show each other's vulnerablities. the march begins at 9 o'clock. we will see what happens, melissa. >> melissa: karl, i am happy you are here because you are the master of all of this. if you were to give each candidate a piece of advice tonight and tell them what to do and what to avoid, what would you tell each candidate? >> well, i would tell donald

trump that the focus has to be on what he wants to do, what he's done a little bit and what he wants to do a lot and contrast everything with joe biden. one of the things -- the president is right. answering questions to the press gives you a certain amount of debate prep. he has to find a way to turn the question to contrast with joe biden. he needs to pivot to what he thinks is joe biden's vision and how that badly contrasts with his. on the case of joe biden, the key thing is stay focussed on his vision for the future and don't get drawn into the one-on-one fight. biden sounded like he wanted to come in and rumble. that's not the best path for him. the best path is to be the uniifier with a concrete idea of what he wants to do and attempts to draw everything around that vision. if he gets drawn into a mud fight with president trump that doesn't serve his advantage. >> melissa: along those lines,

m marrie, ari fleischer was on and had great advice for donald trump. to ask joe biden specific questions about his policy. to smoke him out. say new york took 1 billion dollars away from police. do you support that move? do you oppose it? i am for continued fracking. are you for it or do you oppose it? how would joe biden answer those two questions? >> well, he answered them in multiple interviews and in town halls. i agree with my good friend karl rove on that advice he gave. donald trump figured early in 2018 how to run against hillary clinton and go against her on a debate stage. his campaign has had trouble doing that with joe biden. he doesn't have the same

vulnerabilities that hillary clinton did. donald trump needs to see if he can land on a message about joe biden but also when he is asked by people in interviews sean hannity about his second term agenda, donald trump has had a good answer yet. he needs one to tonight. joe biden has been doing prep in a more traditional way. tonight i think will make several cases. one being his argument this he had all along. this is an election about the soul of america. you will hear donald trump make outrageous claims. joe biden will triple down on his message like covid-19 and the economy. >> melissa: one more chance to answer my question. if they say to joe biden, i

oppose taking a billion dollars away from the police in new york. do you support that or oppose it. what answer do you think he should give? >> i did answer your question. he answered those questions multiple times. >> melissa: what is the answer? >> you ask me to answer questions because you don't like the answer. he could say do you know who is taking money away from police is people who don't pay their fair share of taxes. you are unwilling to do so. trump needs to be careful how much he pushing biden. he needs his own proactive message for 4 years. we haven't heard that from the president yet. >> melissa: harris, i heard a pivot to what is bad about donald trump. if joe biden is asked a direct

question, should he answer look over here at donald trump like marie did? >> harris: i take karl rove's advice. he's already answered that himself. he said no. talk about what you will do and not about the other guy. i think karl you're absolutely right. in terms of how many questions they will get asked. this is chris wallace's debate. he is the moderator. i trust if there is a true follow-up with anything, chris will get at it. these gentlemen need to be energized for that battle. they can fight each other if i want but the answers to the questions will come from the moderator. i would say this: karl you touched on this and martha you did too. going into this there are expectations for each man. donald trump has done a good job saying look out for energy with joe biden. joe biden comes out with that

language about how he will be tough and a fighter. that's not what energy is. energy is in that moment, those leadership qualities and that answer and that comeback. voters i have been talking with say that's what they are looking for from each candidate. they want to see leadership in the moment. that equals energy. not whether you can stand up there for 90 minutes and pound each other. >> melissa: i love it. go ahead, martha. >> martha: i want to say, i think there could be a moment of sort there he goes again. that could come from joe biden. we remember that ronald reagan moment. the thing i hear over and over talking to voters in ohio, there is a sentiment that wants things to be calmer. they want a more civilized country. there are plenty of arguments on the trump side why he had to

push so hard and be bold and crass to get what he wants. there is a voter who wants things to be calm. i think joe biden, there might be a moment for him tonight to look at the president and say yes, from he goes again. this is what we have gotten used over the 4 years. if that works for him, we will see. >> melissa: i can't wait! with the battle over the supreme court vacancy on the agenda for tonight's debate as well. judge amy coney barrett is on capitol hill today meeting with top republican lawmakers. some democratic senates refuse to sit down with her. is that a smart move? >> we look forward to working with the republicans in the senate and we hope the democrats in the senate as well. veterans, if you could lower your

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>> melissa: president trump u.s. supreme court nominee judge amy coney barrett is on capitol hill today. she is set to meet with top republicans ahead of senate confirmation hearings beginning next month. tonight the president and joe biden going head-to-head in the first presidential debate and the supreme court will be the topic. chris wallace put out the

topics. judge barrett met already with vice-president pence and mitch mcconnell who is determined to have barrett confirmed before the election. however, several democratic senators including chuck schumer said they won't meet with her. some calling her nomination an illegitimate chance. yesterday kamala harris was asked if she would sit down with the potential future justice? >> i am sure that will happen. we will see how everything works out. i have not made a plan. i will be involved in the hearings and performing my role and responsibility on the senate judiciary committee. >> melissa: does that include meeting with a president's pick for the u.s. supreme court? and you want to run the country

with joe biden but have not made up your mind to sit down with this person. karl rove? >> well, look, it's going to be an ugly hearing. i would not be surprised if kamala harris meets with her. it's amazing to me. calling this an illegitimate exercise. i read the constitution recently. article 2, section 2, clause 2 gives the president of the united states the responsibility to nominate all interior office including the supreme court. there is no time limit. he can dominate as long as he is president. we have one president at a time his power exists until january 20th. and senator harris can give her consent or withhold. she gets that until january 4th

and after that date as well. one other quick point. following the defeat of jimmy carter in 1980 he dominated after he was defeated a person to put on the first court of appeals. steven briar and he was approved a month later with a supporting vote from joe biden. if it's inappropriate for president trump to dominate somebody for the highest court is it inappropriate after he's been defeated for office? apparently not because joe biden voted for him. briar would likely not have been nominated to the supreme court in 1994 under bill clinton again with the senator joe biden of delaware. >> melissa: karl rove gives us more notes to take.

marie, you have an opportunity asa hutchinson a democrat to sit down and meet with the person this republican president has chosen. people in your district are not all one thing. they are many. >> harris: i assume there are some republicans in california. they are everywhere. don't you represent everybody? don't you want to have conversations so you can go home and say i have this conversation. may i not agree with her but here's what i found out. i want to be vice-president so it's my job to do as much as i can on your behalf? >> i would not be surprised if senator harris met with amy coney barrett. i think some democratic senators may. if you look at where the public is on this issue, overwhelming polls show that people believe that whoever is elected in november as president should appoint the next justice. karl is right they can move

forward with it. we could have when president obama was president in 2016. that makes democrats so frustrated. the rank hypocrisy of it. they should have moved forward with garland and we should move forward with hearings now. they didn't move forward with garland. if they are going to be equal, you see how that should play out. this nomination is going toward. the key thing tonight is to hear joe biden talk about the changing nature of the court towards a more conservative bent could do away with the a affordable care act and take millions of people off healthcare in the middle of a pandemic. make this supreme court fight real for people. that's what joe biden will try to do tonight. >> harris: i know when you say an answer like that, it's like yeah, she needs to sit down with this candidate. you are right. you are getting back to the

issues. joe biden says don't make it personal. martha, there are people in the media, the silent women i am not hearing from saying it's not fair to go after this working mom and shame her and make it personal. it is going there. it is drifting from the issues. >> martha: yes. there is a helicopter over my head. i think i heard most of your question. this woman has a remarkable life. she is a remarkable scholar and a great professor. she has all of the credentials to be a supreme court justice. part of the process that begins it are the meetings that senators hold with them. if you are not willing to take the meeting as chuck schumer and bloomenthal, said they won't take the meeting.

if you won't take a meeting to see how you feel about their thoughts and the way they would look at the constitution, i would imagine you would not have any questions in the hearing process. you don't need the cameras rolling to have a question. i don't know what they will do. if you don't take the meeting and you don't want to get to know this better than, i imagine you won't need to ask them any questions in the hearings. i hope they decide it's worth that part of the process. with regard to garland, people didn't like the way that was handled either. but we is to remember that there was a republican senate in place at the time. and there was no intention of letting that process move forward. they chose not to advise nor consent. the same senators who didn't like that are doing what they said they didn't like last time around. that's disengenuous.

>> harris: yes, that's take as a vengeance mover. they care about the issues that the supreme court would handle. melissa, we scoot to the break. a top house republican calling for a criminal investigation into the sources of the "new york times" report on president trump's tax records. how this issue could play out on the debate stage tonight. it's almost here.

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>> ♪ >> melissa: we are hours away from the first presidential debate in cleveland. a top house republican is calling for a criminal probe into sources of the "new york times" report on president trump's tax records and business dealings. congressman kevin brady the ranking republican on the house ways and means committee says while critics question the article article's accuracy...

the "times" is not slowing down on its reporting on the issue in the run up to the first debate. releasing part 2 of the investigation into the presidential's financial dealings last night. karl, maybe my training is as a reporter, the first i think i think of when i read a story like this is where did they get the information? they had to have looked at the tax returns to look at the story. where could you have gotten is from his accountant or his wife if she signs the tax return. unless it's somebody inside the irs who stole it and leaked it. are there other possibilities that i am missing? do other people think where did this population come from? >> you put your finger on two of

the three most likely sources. i don't think miss trump is likely to give them out. yes, his accountants or the irs. if they give it to the "new york times" they would be violating the law. those documents are privileged and personal and troublesomed be the idea if a government employee gave them over. i don't know if they are in the hands of the manhattan d.a. this is troubling. we have long had severe criminal penalties for the release of private information like your tax returns for a good reason. this is privileged and should not be a matter of public discussion until the individual in question wants it to be so. kevinyy is serious and is right

to say there needs to be an investigation. the "new york times" did not violate a law by publishing it. but the individual who gave did to them, who leaked those documents to them could be in violation of the law. >> melissa: martha, the "new york times" doesn't have to hand over its source. but i don't think it could be somebody inside the trump organization. i was speak of his personal accountants. if it's his personal tax return it would only be the person who prepareded or somebody who works within the irs. what am i miss ing?

>> martha: we have seen disgrunted folks on the trump side and a lot of different stories we followed including the russian collusion and other people within the government who want that information to get out and may have leaked it. if there was a curious word in the first story which referred to the data from the documents. that suggests that some of these bottom line numbers, the $750, they didn't have the actual documents or the forms themselves but had the information or the numbers on the forms. it's a fine point. but it may be the difference because they said they did not look at the actual forms. when kevin brady investigates hopefully they will figure out what happened there. to the larger issue of this tonight, i don't think there are a lot of trump supporters who are troubled by this story. i don't know how much traction

it will have on the biden side. they came out with glossy ads within hours of this story hitting which raises questions whether or not they had knowledge about the story coming out. it shows firefighters and teachers and the amount of taxes they pay. the president will have to have a good answer. he said he paid million dollars in taxes and took advantage of the tax laws. he could point to joe biden and say this law was passed when you were in the senate to allow american taxpayers to take these losses. it's the scandal of the week. we will see where it goes. >> melissa: marie, joe biden had a similar issue about the million dollars he and his wife collected to avoid paying the same taxes you would pay on

ordinary income if you were a regular person working a minimum wage job. they said this is how the tax code is designed. is that a sufficient answer from these two? >> well, we have seen joe biden's taxes. we have seen multiple years of them. and donald trump could clear this up easily by releasing his tax returns like every other presidential candidate has done. i think the bigger question for me is not these detailed things like real estate tax loopholes. i think the question and it's an open one of whether or not donald trump broke any laws in his taxes, who he owes over $400 million of debate to that is about to come due, those are things that speak to a larger narrative that joe biden will try to promote tonight.

joe biden main street versus donald trump's park avenue. why are doctors and teachers paying more than donald trump? that's not fair? that's the argument you will hear from joe biden tonight. >> melissa: we don't know if any of those things are true or not. president trump could dispel that and settle it by releasing his tax returns and didn't want to do that. two big stories today. the coronavirus pandemic and a spike in violence in u.s. cities. how both candidates plan to present their message to voters tonight. i searched and found sofi and applied for a personal loan.

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>> ♪ >> president trump and joe biden will take the debate stage 1 day after covid-19 deaths worldwide crossed one million cases. the former vice-president campaigned hard on the issue. even blaming president trump for all of the covid-19 deaths in the united states.

however, president trump said his administration is breaking records on a vaccine. >> vaccines are coming. we are rounding the corner regardless. vaccine are coming fast. we have four great countries. it will be added rapidly. they are in the final stages of testing. from what we are hearing the results will be extraordinary. >> harris: i want to make a correction of myself there. a million deaths unfortunately. many, many more cases. karl, i come to you, the news conferences back-to-back from the weekend to yesterday, these updates. how much do you think that information plays in the debate to help president trump tonight? >> well, the vaccine issue helps but he has to go on the offense here. he has to not only say we did the best we could and the

scientists like dr. fauci and redfield affirm. that he has to say, i hear the monday morning quarterback coming for you former president jimmy carter. -- former vice-president biden. you attacked my ban on china and european travel and the people around you, while you didn't say much about the issues, they were talking about it. your guy said don't buy a mask. it don't do any good and your guy said the likelihood this would be serious is very, very low. and your man said we don't have a health pandemic, we have a fear pandemic. your record in retrospect is not good. when you went on joy reid and she asked you what would you do as president? you said next january here are the 6 things i will do and i donald trump was already doing those 6 things. he has to go on the offense.

the one thing i learned in briefings at the white house in 2003 about sars and mers, it's hard to predict what the events will look like and hard to preside over them. the president ought to say we did everything we could. listened to the scientists. you are being a monday morning quarterback trying to make yourself look like you knew what to do. go look at the record. >> harris: marie, strategy for joe biden? >> do two things. donald trump is president and the buck stops with him. we have 200,000 dead americans. he needs to be clear that donald trump did not do everything he could have done. why is our response so much worse than ever other country on the planet? why are we facing a second wave or a rising cases in many states

across the country? because universities opened without proper testing? biden has to look back but more importantly looking forward. in he is inaugurateed in january 2021, what will he do immediately to address this crisis? it's not going away. it's getting worse in many places. it will still be with us then. we need a strategy. you will hear that from joe biden tonight. he needs to tie it to america's every day lives because it's affected every voter. >> harris: he may want to make up his mind on masks. if he would mandate them, he needs to say that tonight so there is not so much confusion about what he will do. violence in cities the candidates will address.

homicide were up by 53% over last year. martha, can you talk about this as in some places in america and not everybody is feeling this. those things are true. for the places where it is happening they are feeling it mightily. small businesses are suffering and they are not part of the issue here. they are not even in the fight. they are just trying to survive what is going on, on the streets. >> martha: yes. i don't think you have to go any further than to look at what happened washington. when they wanted to defund the police first of all. they said they needed to reimagine the police force and eliminate it. then their homicide rates went up in a frightening proportion. now lisa bender who came out strongly and on a morning show said if you think that the police should just show up at your house when you have a problem, that's a sign you

don't understand your white privilege. now the same city council president is coming out and saying she is scolding the police for not being there when people need them. it's very clear that the places where police felt their posture needed to change because they were afraid in some cases of being too aggressive in certain situations to keep law and order in the cities. i want not talking about cases where there is a killing or violence that has gone to the courts. but across the board you have police who resands. -- signing. leaving their jobsarily. -- jobs early. this is a problem across the country. when they say where are the police, we need help here, that tells you what you need to know about the cycle of disappointing outcomes in that effort. >> harris: and the last 24 hours.

minneapolis city council members want to redo defunding the police because they are seeing problems with response times. they are concerned about the crime in their city and that's where much of the unrest started right after the death of george floyd in that city may 25th. if they are taking another look at defunding, maybe that needs to be part of the conversations on both sides of the political aisle. melissa, quick thoughts? >> melissa: i think during the democratic national convention, democrats and joe biden tried to be like we don't know about this violence going on in the cities and ignoring it. now the new strategy was to lay it at president trump's feet. when you look at the statistics you highlighted off the top that 53% more people have been killed in these major cities this summer versus last summer, how is it donald trump's fault that people are being killed? it can't be.

that's what i think the focus is about. the idea that these are democratic run cities. this is what it looks like. that's where you get it from. >> harris: yes. moving on. if t may not be on tonight's debate agenda but could be a pressing issue for voters? which candidate is most mentally fit? we know people are talking about it. who has the most to prove tonight. veterans: you know mortgage rates have fallen to 50-year lows. but did you know that your va benefit lets you easily refinance to a lower rate? one call to newday can save you $3000 a year. with newday's va streamline refi there's no income verification, no home appraisal, and no out of pocket costs. it's the quickest and easiest refi they've ever offered. call newday now.

>> next year will be the best economic year in the history of our country. >> [cheers and applause]. >> unless a sleepy guy got in and decided to quadruple everybody's taxes. then he goes back into the basement for 4 days. what happens to this guy? i know what happens to him. >> melissa: president trump belittled biden's mental fitness and biden has the opportunity to cancel president trump's attacks and make a few of his own. >> he doesn't know how to debate the facts because he is not that

smart. he doesn't than many facts. he doesn't know much about foreign policy or domestic policy. >> melissa: whew! martha, i heard you say yesterday that you are wondering if this is going to devolve into a pushup contest and that would be weird. i would like see that. i would not mind that. >> martha: okay, give me 20 right now. joe biden said he wanted to go out behind the barn and have a fight. my guess it will be much more civilized than that. i think if there is any moment when joe biden trips up or loses his train of thought, we will be watching president trump's face to see how he handles that and react. does he handled it sublily.

sometimes less is more. >> melissa: karl i saw clips from the debate between paul ryan and joe biden. that was not the same performance he put in during the democratic debates. will we see that guy tonight? >> you are right they were not debates, they had weird news conferences. in the final debate with bernie sanders, he handled himself pretty well. if i were the president i would raise the expectations for biden and not lowering them. he was a member of the senate for decades. the senate is a debating society. i would be raising them. i want to say i agree with martha. less is more sometimes. tonight if biden makes

statements we have seen on television where he is out there in the willed -- wilderness, if i were the president i would be low-key and say i think what i heard former vice president biden was x and then go after it. less is more. he doesn't need to point his finger and say look at what joe just said. be subtle. the american people will make their own judgment about whether or not joe biden is up for the job. >> melissa: marie, what kind of performance do you think joe biden will put in? >> i think he will surprise people. he is ready for this debate. when donald trump is outside of his comfort zone he makes gaffs and says things that are not true and appears unhinged to people. i think that's what you will see

tonight. >> melissa: all right. more "outnumbered" in a moment.

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>> ♪ >> melissa: thanks. see you back here tomorrow for the post game. here's harris. >> ♪ >> harris: let's begin with what we are watching president trump and joe biden are set to face off tonight in a bruising presidential debate with the election just 5 weeks away. this is "outnumbered overtime," i am harris faulkner. we are now fewer than 8 hours from the first of the 3 planned presidential debates. tonight's showdown in cleveland, ohio will focus on 6 topics including the u.s. supreme court and the integrity of the election. the trump campaign suggests things can get feisty. >> the president will be ready