today, except whether there be a presidential debate next week. >> sandra: that is up in the air for now, biden campaign is asking for a later date, we'll see where it goes. trace gallagher, good to be with you this morning. "outnumbered" starts now. >> harris: let's get going. a stunning move, 26 days before the election. president trump says he will not take part in the next presidential debate, after the debate, commission announced the town hall event would be all virtual, with the candidates appear nothing separate remote locations. that debate is scheduled one week from today. the president told maria this. >> pres. trump: i heard the commission changed the debate style and that is not acceptable to us, i'm not going to do a virtual debate. i will not waste my time on a virtual debate, that is not what

debating is all about. >> harris: now the president's camp is responding, joe biden will find an appropriate place to take questions from voters directly on october 15th, as he's done on several occasions in recent weeks. given the president's refusal to participate in october 15th, we hope the debate commission will move the biden/trump town hall to october 22nd, so the president is not able to evade accountability. you are watching "outnumbered." i'm harris faulkner. here is today's fox business anchor, dagen mcdowell, senior editor at federalist, mollie hemingway, executive director american fox news contributor, marie harf and former house oversight chair, former prosecutor, fox news contributor and author of "doesn't hurt to ask," trey gowdy, is with us in the center, virtual seat. we've had a major back-and-forth. the debate is on, it's off.

trey, your take. >> trace: well, from the standpoint, harris, i thought mike pence gave a good debate last four years, i hate the fact is being stepped on by talking about the next debate. i would have liked a 24-hour news cycle after the performance he gave last night, we could be talking about. i know the president is frustrated the rules have been changed. i think 70 million watched the first debate. conventional wisdom i'm thinking the president is behind, at best tied, probably behind. when you are behind, you need to talk to the audience as much as you can. my advice, if change the rules, it is unfair, win anyway. >> harris: i love when trey gowdy gives opening statement. here comes litigation next, right? mollie, what do you think the president should do in all of thi

>> mollie: they think that is going to go well for them, the american people do need the actual debate, not moderated interviews, but actual debate between the two candidates. that is not been something they have done a good job thus far and also plays into donald trump's main talking point, he says the elite are corrupt and will do anything to keep him from winning and they will do anything to protect their candidate joe biden. then they walk right into it by further constraining the debates between the two individuals. the important thing for debate is that you actually go after each other and that is not going to happen in a virtual debate. it is pathetic and embarrassing suggestion this would be okay. there are all sorts of changes

they could make, they need to let two men actually debate. >> harris: i'm wondering if the president is saying he would show up regardless if he still had covid played a role in this. 60 to 65 people on the ground with the debate commission getting things ready. we talked to ari yesterday and he said he wished the president hadn't said something like that. the debate commission can did what it wants, i agree with mollie, to not have gotten everybody involved seems like putting the cart before the horse. or heck, throw the whole thing out. >> mollie: i think they felt they had to for public health reasons. the white house has nots been forth thecoming with president trump's testing. they refuse to say how many times he tested negative and how

often he is tested. i know there is privacy concerns, but he is the president and when he said publicly he would show up even if he had covid, that is a public health question. debates have done remotely, it is doable and i think it says the american people, maybe president trump doesn't want to take questions in a town hall format. that is why i like the biden suggestion, have the following debate be town hall and we can both answer questions from actual voters issue not just journalists, i like that idea. >> harris: we don't know what the president is going to say to that. i can tell you, he loves it. are you kidding? most candidates, as trey pointed out, relish the fact to be around voters and reach them. i don't think we can assume that is the reason with president trump and i don't think we can assume that later october date

is out, either. let's see what happens. dagen mcdowell. >> dana: >> dagen: i was talking about lee carter about this, she said it will energize his base. this touches on what is an emerging theme in the campaign that we heard last night from vice president pence. they believe the american people and the power of buickock rase, if they go straight to the people and circumvent the establishment, if you will, that speaks to what could be andemic theme in her feature and the campaign until the election. however, president trump needs to hammer joe biden in a debate on the fact he falls flat on his face when it comes to policy issues. vice president pence did a great job laying out policy over personality last night and it would benefit, particularly

among undecided. 6% of voters are undecided right now. it is suggested it is more than that. those undecided needs to hear policy and put the two against one another and make their decision. you can't do that if one person is doing their own town hall and somebody else is out on the campaign trail. >> harris: well, or somebody isn't sitting for interviews or maybe the town hall packed with friendly folks, you heard that on nbc, not undecided, as it turns out. yes, the playing field has to be even. trey, i want to talk to you about the format. i -- last night, people were fiery coming back, yeah, what about that. this format overall with debates is stale and unimaginative, if you want to capture the imagination and the attention of electorate right now dealing with covid, with job situations, with kids on virtual, hybrid,

there is so much going on right now. with all the great minds and politics and the tv industry, has to be another way to do it. you are an amazing litigator, prosecutor and your book is amazing, too. you could do it, absolutely. you could do it at any venue, what do you see going ahead? you have done debates, what needs to happen here? >> trace: the whole system is laughable. we have some of the most important questions that have ever confronted this country. okay, you have two minutes to answer it. >> harris: exactly. >> trace: i did a podcast and supreme court nominations are incredibly important. why not have entire debate on judicial philosophy, healthcare, pre-existing conditions, the notion we will have an issue as important as our justice system and equity in our justice system, you have two minutes to unlock the mysteries of the

world is a joke and disservice to my fellow citizens. i'd like to see longer debates with just the candidates talking to one another and a civil way and i think for the most part last night was. >> harris: you know what, i love your idea, too, a longer debate. i could, mollie, see a situation there are four or five journalists, first debate from 10 to noon, next one, break up the day and handle a topic or two in each of the two-hour formats and you have debate day like you have election day. you could sell ads, i'm thinking of everybody getting fed at the table. most importantly, the american people. >> mollie: i think it is a great idea to give more time to actually discuss the different visions for the american people, american party and democratic party. one awful thing about the

current media environment, two minutes uninterrupted is more than most republicans get on any other stage to explain their successes over the last four years or to argue for what they want. this is why debates are important. you said journalists should moderate them. journalists, by committing fully to biden victory, have lost the right to moderate debates. they don't ask questions that need to be asked. it is important to not have a highly versatile debate, because perhaps the only person in the country who will ask joe biden tough questions and you saw this last night in the vice presidential debate, is the president. he will ask joe biden to answer things the media are protecting him from. the more they control, the more they help biden. they have been so overt in bias and it is getting worse every year, it just really bad situation and we need to let the candidates actually go after each other and debate each other on the merits.

>> trey, i think you are wishing -- on the american peoplpeep >> trey: then maybe we need different politicians, electing people who speak for three hours and say nothing, reflection we are picking the wrong people. >> harris: wou wo/* wou wow. spicy. with many topics last night, it wasn't the candidates said, but what they did not say. both candidates dodged some questions and whether or not it hurt either of their performances. >> i want the record to reflect, she never answered the question. i've got some terrific news for veteran homeowners

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>> harris: vice president mike pence and kamala harris faced off last night in utah. both took time to answer direct questions on critical issues. one of the memorable exchanges, kamala harris dodged this question from the vice president. >> the american people would like to know if judge amy coney barrett is confirmed supreme court of the united states, are

you and joe biden, if you win this election, goes to pack the supreme court to get your way? >> i'm so glad we went through a little history lesson, let's do that a little more n. 1864 -- >> i would like you to answer the question. >> the american people are voting right now, and it should be their decision. >> vice pres. pence: once again, a nonanswer. >> harris: get to that in a second. the vice president also skirted some question, including last month's rose garden event unveiling the supreme court nominee. since then the president and several officials tested positive for covid-19. the vice president was asked how he expects americans to follow social distancing guidelines if the white house does not do so, here is his response. >> vice pres. pence: the american people have demonstrated over the last eight months, that when given the facts, they are willing to put

the health of their families and neighbors and people they don't know first. president trump and i have great confidence in the american people and their ability to take that information and put it into practice. >> harris: all right, trey, i'll come to you first. let's starts with packing the court and how important you think significant do you think that issue is for kamala harris to actually answer? >> trey: oh, i think she did answer it. it is called admission by silence, which we have all the time in the courtroom. if you are accused of something and you do not deny it, the jury is smart enough to know, she was asked every way you can be asked, are you going to pack the court. the fact she will not say no, we have had 150 years, the presumption is in favor of nine, if you can't say we will have it 154 years, we are left to believe, that is your only jobs program for the new

administration. we will find three new jobs, all on the supreme court. i will say this, two reasons to duck questions. number one, the answer would bring more wrath than avoidance and number two, which i do think mike pence engaged in some last night, which is the jury, the audience, really is more interested and no offense to susan page, more interested in an earlier question than the one you just posed. when kamala harris accused the president of dancing on the graves of american soldiers, yeah, i think i will give mike pence a pass for skipping whatever question susan page asked and going back and dealing with an earlier question. >> harris: interesting, he did do that a few times. it is harder to make the argument, if opposite target and not saying in the instance of the soldiers that you mentioned, i plain don't remember what they segue to. when it is covid-19 and head of task force, you don't want to pivot away from a spreading

event at the white house in the rose garden. >> trey: which means there was no good answer, rule one, no good answer. >> harris: i got you. >> harris, it is interesting, seems like mike pence and kamala harris had a strategy going in of trying to paint the other candidate in a certain light. that makes sense, for kamala harris, running against an incumbent, you are making the election a referendum, here is the ways they did not do a good job. for mike pence, you are running behind in the polls, your job is to go on the offense and knock the other side down a peg, if you can. i think both of them and they are both quite polished debaters last night, we saw that, they were going on the offense and at times, i think, didn't have good answers to certain questions, mike pence not answering questions about the healthcare plan, senator harris kept coming

back to. strategy at work, too. >> harris: dagen mcdowell, they did different jobs in my estimation, though. the vice president's job was to lift and boost the campaign, while its star is recovering from covid-19. yes, he's been on twitter and we've seen, heard or seen pretaped video. but really and truly that was his job last night and to come at it and unite the people. his closing argument was about that. kamala harris to me, her job was to explain who she is in case something were to happen. that has been a big question with a man who will be 78 years old in the first year of presidency, should he win, the oldest in our history, so far. what do you think their jobs were and how did they do? >> dagen: vice president pen dl ce's job was to layout policy. eliminate tax cuts, that means

tax increases for two-thirds of this country. vast majority of people got a tax cut under the plan, deregulation created not only jobs, but higher wage growth for rank and file workers. growing faster is something we haven't seen in a decade. he hammered the policy, you are getting rid of trump tax cuts, that is not just raising taxes, but on the question of packing the court, this is something started by democratic senators. threat from sheldon whitehouse and other democratic senators to the court when they were threatening to take up a gun case in new york city. this is a critical issue. 70% of people who voted for president trump said that the supreme court appointments were very important to them and packing the court frankly, getting ready to filibuster, getting rid of electoral college, adding states to the

uni union, trampling the constitution of the united states, subverting the constitution of the united states, diminishing one of the three branches of government and also opens the door to say, getting ready of the second amendment, that is critically important to trump voters and should be to all americans and kamala harris and joe biden will not answer that question for a very clear reason, they plan to do it. >> harris: dagen mcdowell, forgive me, i want mollie in. >> dagen: no, no, i will shut up. >> harris: no, please, we love you. fox polls show views are divided about evenly on increasing number of justices on the u.s. supreme court. 39% likely voters favor the move, 41% say they oshg pose it and 20 to 21% say they are unsure. why am i showing you that, mollie? because it has been commented by democrats as of late maybe this is not an issue people care about as much and maybe the pivot was in that lane trey

gowdy was teaching us about. well, she gave an answer, right? she was silent. or maybe potentially she didn't and tried to skirt it, she doesn't think her side cares about it. what is your thought? >> mollie: it is interesting to note, the reason this was an issue, why this was brought up in the debate is because mike pence brought the issue up in the debate. great example of what i'm talking about why it is important to not just let journalists protecting biden be in control of what is asked. we are through the second debate, no journalist asked about the court-packing issue. it is an important thing, just the general issue of the biden campaign saying they are the campaign they should vote for if you care about norms. refusing to say whether they would violate the long-standing norm of a nine-person supreme court and correct this idea was put forth by senator whitehouse and others, this was a threat. if supreme court didn't rule the way they wanted on second

amendment case, they would do this as retaliation. this question about rule of law and how we're governed is important to the underlying issue. mike pence had a fantastic debate, he did extremely well. his super power is debating, it seems like. that was partly because he is just skilled at what he does. it is also true that he has a record of accomplishment under the trump administration that was very easy to talk about and so he did well on substance and on style. >> harris: all right, real quickly, you said, you know, having questions from those people participating, having done enough debates and panels, i would say that i like to ask each side to give me a question before the evening starts that you would want me to ask on your behalf to get something going. i look through the options, it is always really interesting, like you say, mollie. okay, we'll scoot. hurricane delta is strengthening

back to a category 2 storm. now it is headed for the u.s. gulf coast. we knew it was coming. when and where it could make exact landfall next. plus, vice president mike pence and senator kamala harris battling over the pandemic and last night's debate as pence accused harris of politicizing the issue. i'm greg, i'm 68 years old.

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>> harris: fox news alert now. hurricane delta strengthening back into a category 2 storm as it bears down on the gulf coast. forecasters are predicting delta will make landfall friday afternoon, so tomorrow strong winds, heavy rainfall. meteorologist rick is tracking delta live from the fox weather center.

rick. >> unfortunately, getting close, 10-15 miles from where hurricane laura made landfall in latter part of august. a lot of people just got power back on, they have tarps over the buildings for this next storm coming in. you see where the hurricane warnings are in effect in red, includes parts of southeast texas, the backside of the storm might bring hurricane conditions. the center of the storm will come on shore, we are pretty confident, south louisiana coastline. here is satellite image, getting better organized. good thing it is category 2 right now. storms when they are at a stronger storm for a longer time, they build up more and more storm surge because it is cat 2, not that that is not anything dangerous, but we had seen forecast of a cat 4, so less amount of time with stronger winds means potentially lower storm surge and that is good news. nonetheless, this is friday

morning, toward the noon hour, center of the storm is getting close to the louisiana coastline. maybe seeing landfall exactly where or 10 to 15 miles from where laura came on landfall. one good thing it is moving faster than we've seen the other storms move, it won't be prolonged event for us there. there you go, we are here at another storm, storm surge is big, 7-11 feet at the max. 17 feet of storm surge in lake charles from the last storm, i think we will see less of that at that point. we got a lot to get through here. unfortunately, again, harris. >> harris: rick, thank you very much. >> you bet. >> if public health professionals, if dr. anthony fauci, if the doctors tell us to take it, i will be first in line to take it. if donald trump tells us we should take it, i'm not taking it. >> dagen: 2020 vice presidential candidate kamala harris says she

will refuse to take coronavirus vaccine based on president trump's word alone. the vice president mike pence fired back, blasting harris for her comments. watch. >> vice pres. pence: senator, i have to ask you,top playing politics with people's lives. your continuous undermining of confidence in a vaccine, it is just unacceptable. >> dagen: trey, i've said over and over again, this fearmongering is something we heard from kamala harris and even joe biden and it puts people's lives at risk if they tell them you can't take a vaseen if a republican is in the white house. >> trey: yeah, i thought that was one of her worst moments. it is better to say what trump said, i will be first in line or last in line, i will let you pick. the fact that a pandemic has become as polarizing as it has is reflection how sad the state

of the republic is. mike pence projected sympathy, what a lot of voters want to see. look, we did a good job and mourn the loss of the 200,000 plus people who lost their lives. i think mike was particularly effective when he said, thank god we didn't take your advice. it would have been worse and thank god the swine flu was not as lethal as novel coronavirus or we would have more than when you were running it, mr. vice president. >> dagen: this is something we've discussed, particularly among minorities in the united states, there is reticence and hesitation and concern about vaccines in general and even moferinol vaccine came out and said it is having difficulty enrolling minority groups in the vaccine trials, which ultimately hurts the results on efficacy

and safety for those very groups. there is a long history of this distrust in vaccine among the black community, particularly, but how does this help, messaging from kamala harris, of all people? >> harris: you know, that misgiving or mistrust you are talking about, has a long history, going back to tuskegee airmen, you can look it up if you are not familiar. it was deadly. people of color do have a legitimate reason, in some cases, particularly those whose legacy happen to be the tuskegee airmen. so many things have happened since then with science and so many reasons for people to believe when the government puts its mind to it collectively can do its job. now we just have to get to the point where we're making sure it is firing on all cylinders, that is where the current administration comes in.

it is not helpful for a black woman, a woman of color to say and she did this previous to last night, i want to point out, to say she couldn't get the vaccine. that is not helpful, that doesn't inspire the trial participation you are talking about and doesn't inspire people to take a life-saving move once we get the vaccine to people of color. we need the opposite of that. the nuance i heard from her last night was this and it makes me wonder who talked to her about that. she pins it on trump f. trump told her to get the vaccine. if the administration this week said it is following the scientists on this, the f.d.a. and cdc, it is not just about efficacy tis about approval. the president supporting slowing it down. you know he doesn't want to, you know he wants something quicker for a lot of reasons, like maybe saving more people's lives. if the administration is willing to

capitulate to the argument, we have to wait for the science and for it to be in concert with how effective it is for all people, not just the ones you think you can ark tract to early trials. wait until the tent is bigger to test it. they are working on that across nine companies that have popped and dagen, you know them on the index and those who are trying to get that vaccine. i would say for kamala harris, though, she goes forward with this, my question for her would be, well, who do you want to hear it from so that you are first in line? you say you want to get a call from the scientists. it will not come from the scientist, it will come from the administration, i heard the same answer. >> dagen: mollie, i'm disturbed by the campaign, the doubt about vaccines being developed by private companies. each trial the vaccines are in, they have an independent safety board. so it spreads misinformation

about the way sac see -- vaccin are developed. political gain, i suppose. what say you? >> mollie: i think it is fine if you have a case for being skeptical, if you have a fact-based case for being skeptical of a government program, like the one trying to get a vaccine into millions of people across the country. but her only case thus far has been that she is controlled by a seething fear and hatred of donald trump, not a good case for telling people not to take a vaccine. if she has a good case, she should put it forward and hasn't thus far. answer on coronavirus response, complaining about the trump administration coronavirus response. she had a lot of difficulty articulating what the biden administration would do differently than what the trump administration has done. this is a very important thing, this is life and death f. she has a case, now she said it

twice, this is very risky, if she has a case, she should put it forth and it hasn't happened yet. hakdz >> harris: marie to you next. >> marie: maybe let the democrat make the case for kamala harris, i agree with her. >> dagen: promise to get to you, marie, this is breaking news. waiting update from authorities after six men arrested and accused of plotting with a group of militia to kid nap michigan governor gretchen whitmer at her home. four of the six planned to meet yesterday to "make a payment on explosives and exchange tactical gear," and all six men were charged with conspiracy to commit kidnapping, which can carry a life sentence. we're monitoring this story, obviously the f.b.i. said it

thwarted a plot involving that michigan militooishia. there are series of federal search warrants conducted around the state yesterday, including one in shiowashi county. i have relatives near there, i think i got close. associated press reporting the six were arrested in connection with the investigation, the federal search warrants. more as we get it, stay close. +s a woman who was young had covid-19. i remember her because she had a bracelet that had the names of her children. she asked me, 'doctor, am i going to be okay?' and i could not give her the answer that i wanted to give her. there is no excuse for why we don't have this under control at this point. joe biden listens to medical experts. he actually has a plan that does the things that we should have been doing many months ago. and joe biden is not going to let his ego get in the way

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>> vice pres. pence: joe biden and kamala harris want to raise taxes. they want to bury our economy under 2 trillion green new deal, you were a original co-sponsor of in the united states senate. they want to abolish fossil fuel and ban fracking, which would cost jobs across the heartlands.

>> harris: vice president accusing kamala harris and joe biden of pushing a platform and agenda to pressure a biden administration. the plan is backed by black lives matter and liberal lawmakers, including the so-called squad, junior freshmen congresswoman you see on the screen. a jobs program employee 16 million is what it calls for, including universal healthcare. retroactive hazard pay for essential workers and relocation of police resources. trey, as woo look at this, i do want to point out that after kamala harris said, no, she and joe biden were not going to do fracking, which we have on tape saying she would absolutely ban fracking, we know she said it, congresswoman ocasio-cortez said no, fracking is bad, tweeting to the debate.

do they have control? >> trey: there is no question, we learned she does not like to be called aoc, i will call her congresswoman ocasio-cortez. as freshman member of the house, she has an outsized role in terms of setting the agenda, so it is news to her they are nots pursuing the green new deal and news since kamala harris was first co-sponsor in the senate. i think people learned that kamala harris, even more than bernie sanders or ron white, elizabeth warren was considered the most liberal member of the united states senate. i think you can see a congresswoman ocasio-cortez and senator harris putting a lot of pressure on uncle joe to move further to the left. they have their own tea party, it is just a green tea party. they will be relentless if he wins. >> harris: mmm, that is interesting. mar maria, we were on the air last

week when joe biden had the train tour. he said it is not the biden deal, it is the biden green deal trying to scoop up the people on the left. that doesn't help the cause of trying to meet in the middle. >> marie: democratic voters spoke strongly during the primary in picking a moderate. they could have picked bernie sanders or elizabeth warren and my party picked joe biden. i think the progressive wing of the party quite frankly wishes they had power over joe biden republicans seem to think they have. they are playing this very smartly, supporting joe biden. they brought organizing energy to help the biden campaign. they have made a calculation, unlike 2016, it is better for them to be part of the party trying to push certain policies from the inside than it was playing spoiler in some cases on the outside. look, joe biden is not from the far left of the party and i'm glad my party is having debates about how to get everyone healthcare. i wish there was equal policy

debate on the republican side, quite frankly. >> harris: this is where i get confused. early on in the primary before the pandemic and the election cycle, he said, joe biden, i'm the most progressive, look at my record. now he doesn't want that to be his credo, i'm just, which joe biden are we going to see? >> marie: i think we're going to see the same joe biden we've always seen. he is someone quite moderate, but is a democrat looking for ways to put forward certain policy, whether that is making the climate cleaner or getting everyone healthcare. he will listen to and work with the party and work with republicans, if he can, he's made that clear. >> harris: all right, dagen, mollie, next round. did gender play a role in last night's vice presidential debate? gender? some say it absolutely did. whether that criticism is fair, next.

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>> dagen: george stephanopoulos facing pullback from his own

last night. >> i don't know, i didn't see it that way, george, it didn't come across to me. i think he should have stopped talking a little quicker, i don't think he was disrespectful of either woman. >> when i see people say, talk about these things with kamala harris and a man shouldn't interrupt her. kamala harris is a vice presidential candidate, she should be able to stand up for herself. >> dagen: mollie, if you come as far in your career as kamala harris, are any of us, we can handle ourselves, man or woman, right? >> mollie: it is not just that you should be able to handle yourself, it is just this doesn't apply to what happened last night. women know what man slamming looks like by male colleagues or others. that is not mike pence, he is

appropriate and a good debater. kamala harris is a good debater. she struggled, didn't have a ton of substance and did facial mugging, she was condescending and smug and that didn't play well, comes off like sour grapes when you are complaining about something that didn't actually happen. >> dagen: marie, don't you worry your pretty little head, i will hand your backside to you if you are a dude and talk to me like that, that wasn't on des play la -- display at all. >> marie: we have talked about this, all women know about being man slammed and yes, kamala harris should be able to deal with mike pence condensation and interrupting. i think a lot of women are sick and tired of having to deal with it. we can deal with it, but why is this happening in american politics and media today? the number of women who said, we know those men who keep talking, keep going longer than they should, don't let you get a word in edge wise, there is some

gender issues here, i think think. >> dagen: there are men and women on this planet, trey. she scored points by saying, i'm speaking, i'm speaking. i've said a lot worse, my mouth is moving, you shut up. i've said that on the air before, not to you, trey. >> trey: i think mike pence paid senator harris the highest compliment you can pay a fellow, treat them the same you would if a man were sitting there. i watched the debate four years ago, i thought he treated kamala harris like he would anyone else, what he is supposed to do. she was in the courtroom with murderists and rapists, i don't think she is intimidated by a man as gent iile and she doesn' need george stephanopoulos that wear makeup and ask dumb questions for a living to be defending her, that is patronizing in and of itself.

>> dagen: i will defend her facial expressions, much talk, what do you do if you don't make faces and express yourself, then you get accused of having a resting mmm face, my personal problem. we're "outnumbered," in just a moment. joint pain, swelling, tenderness. my psoriasis. cosentyx works on all of this. cosentyx treats the multiple symptoms

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>> dagen: marie harf, mollie hemingway and trey gowdy, thank you ladies and sir. i always have to say sir. >> trey: yes, ma'am, thank you. >> dagen: thanks to everybody. right now, here is harris. >> harris: the trump and biden campaigns may be close to a deal on how to move forward after president trump said he would not take part in next week's virtual debate. ah, there is news. "outnumbered overtime," i'm haisfa