♪ ♪ >> trace: vladimir putin's bloody invasion only triggered massive exodus from ukraine but reportedly led to the plight of russia to its own citizen. this comes mid reports erconsidering invoking martial w across his country in an effort to stop the escalating antiwar segment there. thousands of protesters arrested since the invasion began and there is growing fear of journalist that their lives aren't in danger. dr. matthew smit of national security and scholar of russia. thank you for coming on to pure you written extensively on gluten strategic thinking. in your estimation, where is he going with this war and what is his next step? >> he has to take ukraine. he has to take it physically and

in the end he has to take it politically or he has failed. he's trying to build a kind of russian world that is not exactly a repeat of the soviet union but has moscow and that reclaims and reclaims power lost in the soviet union. >> trace: it is interesting because the french president macron said president putin is literally refusing any kind of cease-fire. he wants this thing. he wants them to absolutely disarm. you think it is weird because he was always known as this kind of cool and cunning kgb agent and now, he is comparing him to hitler. >> he's never been a cool and cunning agent. that is a false impression that he succeeded in giving the west. putin's strategy is that he creates things and he creates chaos. inside that chaos he looks for

targets of opportunity. an effort multiple targets and some kind of strategic gain. he can break things, make war but can't achieve a strategic gain. >> trace: when you say break things, do you believe vladimir putin is getting more unpredictable and more dangerous as the days go by as the war goes on? just his mention of nuclear weapons brings us closer to may be a mishap or misunderstanding. what do you think? >> we have to take it more seriously. if there is nothing he hasn't shown us in the last two weeks is that what he says he needs to be seen at face value. i'm scared. if he says he may use nuclear weapons, we have to believe it. if we look at the power plant right now in indonesia, right, this is the largest power plant in europe. there are many other nuclear power plants in ukraine and he did not attack those.

he happens to attack the one reactor right now closed for maintenance. that was not an accident. he's sending a message. >> trace: i wonder if you believe going back to the nuclear power plant, in indonesia, you believe this was absolutely on purpose? they had intent? there was some speculation that it might have gotten in the way and the battle, it really wasn't the target. it was in the way. but you say different. >> you know, we don't know for sure but it would not surprise me at all. the part that was hit and the one that was not in operation. we heard direct shelling on that part. i think it would make sense to be part of a psychological operation to say, hey, we will drop shells on the nuclear power plant. we know it is not the part that is active but we will see how it reacts. >> trace: do you think president putin is in trouble with his people and his elites, his friends and especially his

military in some capacity, dr. schmidt? >> mark my words, this war into the streets of moscow. it is those protest, it is the russian public to vladimir putin and nothing else. he is in trouble. he is surrounded appeared in the south he is bogging down in the war and right outside in the streets, he is losing the information over his own people. he can't lose both of these things and still hope to achieve his objective, which is why his behavior will get more and more extreme. >> trace: do you think whatever bunker he is locked up in even cares? >> he cares in so far he wants to achieve this vision of the, you know, eurasian world of moscow. he absolutely cares about that. the people need to understand this was never about nato. this is the kind of messianic vision where he is trying to recreate russian power and make russia great again and have it play a role in world history. it is a historical vision peer

that is what is driving him purity cannot be deterred becaue believes any sacrifice that he incurs or makes his own people suffer is worth the future vision. >> trace: dr. matthew schmitz, fascinating insight and thank you for coming on, we appreciate it. >> my pleasure. >> trace: shows they had the watchdog agency is on high alert but the nuclear power plant is not their only concern. you can see if there. six reactors, three of them online, three of them were not peer at the fire apparently reportedly is out. the question is, was the attack deliberate? and if so, what was the intent? continuing coverage of breaking news on the other side of the break.

>> trace: break him right now potential nuclear threat could be brewing in ukraine as we report the top of the hour

rational forces have assaulted the nuclear power station. it is located in ukrainian city, the plant provides one quarter, 25% of the country's power and water officials warn if russia were to destroy the stations reactors, you could see a nuclear crisis ten times greater in chernobyl disaster of 1986. fox news senior foreign affairs correspondent in london, greg palkot. >> good morning, this could have been the worst nightmare and the nightmarish war happening in ukraine. it looks like for this time at least we dodged the bullet. a massive power plant complex in southern ukraine the biggest in europe was targeted overnight by russian tanks. troops, and shelling. the fire was started near the plant's nuclear reactors. the world's largest nuclear disaster and ukraine's chernobyl plant in 1986.

thankfully the fire was put out and did not spread. radioactive in the immediate area to not have risen according to the u.n. nuclear watchdog a iea which has spoken with ukrainian officials. still u.s. energy secretary went on alert over this and president biden was in touch with president zelenskyy. it happened russian troops moved up south. the locations that this happened that is about 100 miles north of crimea, 350 miles south of kyiv and started shelling the plant. and the administrative training building, that caught on fire. five or six nuclear reactors were shut down and pretty massive concrete casing. but in fact the last couple of days, they tried to block it and they knew what the dangers were. they stood on the street with thousands in front of the tanks, but at the end of the day, the

fire from the russian troops proved too much. there were fears that one reactor had been hit. there were fears that shells hit in the opening cooling pools with the facility, but again, this did not happen and again, the nightmare of chernobyl on top of everything else that is happening in this war did not go down to. it shows you, trace, the many dangers out there in all sorts of forms to human life to civilization. back to you. >> trace: greg palkot live in london thank you. it is not just the plant ends before that has the atomic watchdog agency concerned. we have 15 nuclear reactors across the country. this hour, there is great concern they can all come under fire as a russia attempts to cut off ukraine's power supply. with us is john national security advisor and dick cheney who is also with the jewish institute for national security of america. john come always great to have you won but i want to play the

sound bite, president zelenskyy talking about this nuclear powee attack, watch. >> i am addressing all ukrainians, all europeans and everyone who knows the word chernobyl. many casualties inflicted by the explosion on the nuclear power plant. this was a global catastrophe and baffled by hundreds of thousands of people. tens of thousands had to be evacuated and russia wants to repeat that. and already repeating it six times bigger. russian propaganda warned in the past to cover the world in nuclear ash. now this isn't just a warning. this is real. >> trace: and i guess the take away would be that zelenskyy believes this was absolutely targeted. do you share that belief? and before you answer, you should know the fire is out and there is no increase of radiation levels. do you believe that this nuclear power plant was targeted?

>> hi, trace, listen whether or not putin had any intention to actually cause a nuclear disaster in southern ukraine, we can't know for sure, but whether his forces new that they were approaching a nuclear reactor and firing and starting a firefight in that area, i think there is no doubt. and one hopes at most they were simply trying to send a message to the rest of the world that if ukraine doesn't give it up and the will of the ukrainian people is not broken, they are facing, you know literally armageddon from the forces. >> trace: i think that is a fair assessment. speaking of nuclear power, do you believe, senator, if they have it to do over again with a give up nuclear weapons or with a reconsider keeping them as

somewhat of an a seminole? what are your thoughts on that? oh, my gosh, trace, you got to believe if they can go back to 1994 when they signed budapest memorandum with the russians, brits, and americans are give up their nuclear weapons, got assurances from all three states that they would ensure ukraine's independence and territorial integrity. if they knew, you no less than 30 years later they would be under an all-out assault by the russian military with the rest of the world providing weapons on the outside but doing nothing to intervene, leaving the ukrainians alone to face putin's wrath come i think they would have those nuclear weapons back in an instant. and i've got to say other states around the world looking at this, looking at what happens when they are attacked. they've got to believe that we will be on it as well. do we need to start looking at

acquiring nuclear weapons? >> trace: yeah, that is the question. i wonder, john, you look at these things and you talk about how we have compelled in negotiated with countries to give up nuclear weapons with security assurance is like listen, you give up weapons and we will come to your defense. well, that hasn't happened there and you have to believe a lot of countries around the planet, we are going to stand back with what we have to. we are not giving them up because right now if zelenskyy had nuclear weapons and vladimir putin strategy, would it be different is the question? >> i think absolutely it would be different. he was facing another nuclear armed state for sure it would be. it would be a different calculation. so states that have clear weapons right now will be a lot more reluctant after ukrainian war to give them up and states that don't have nuclear weapons

here a much bigger neighbor, they are going to believe the united states is not writing to the rescue. they have to start looking at their own nuclear deterrence peer that is a terrible lesson for the rest of the world to learn from this tragedy we are watching him fold in ukraine, trace. >> trace: literally breaking news with a nuclear power plant and we come from the fire is out here that is some good news there. vladimir putin wants ukraine to disarm before he agrees to a cease-fire. it goes to the next level. do you see in a scenario where zelenskyy is like yes, we will disarm if you promise to cease-fire because so far, is not been good to his word, vladimir putin. >> no, putin is a liar wants to subjugate the ukrainian nation. zelenskyy has become the george washington of modern ukraine. there is no possible way that he is going to now compromise

fatally on ukraine's sovereignty and ukraine's independence. there is probably a lot he can negotiate to address legitimate russian national security interest but not at the cost of ukraine's independence and sovereignty. >> trace: i guess lastly when vladimir putin came on today and told his people this war is going exactly the way he planted coming you talked about him lying every step of the way. he said it when exactly the way he planned. a lot of generals thinking, that is a bad plan. >> it has been a disastrous plan. and you've got to believe there are more and more people around putin kind of looking at each other and thinking, where exactly is this man taking us? and what can we do to stop him? >> trace: john hannah, great for you to come on, circum- appreciated. >> thank you, trace. >> trace: things could get worse in ukraine and details on

the latest threat from vladimir putin. again, live look at the capital city of kyiv. still in control of the ukrainians here that convoy, by the way, that 40-mile convoy still stuck 15 miles away from the city center. and one wonders what their next move. it has been two days, no movement, is morale low? is fuel and food out? we will find out next. ♪ ♪

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>> trace: russian president vladimir putin saying the violence will get worse until he takes over all of ukraine. and he fired at the zaporizhzhia plant overnight and how quickly this escalates into a dangerous situation. not just for ukraine but also for the west of europe perhaps the rest of the world. that spring and former intelligence officer in defense agency matt shoemaker. he did his phd in nuclear war strategy, which is critical in this case and thank you for coming on tonight. but i want your take on maybe what said was in the intentional attack on this nuclear power plant in ukraine. >> trace, it is good to see you again. it is clear from strategic importance from the nuclear power plant that they are going for critical infrastructure at

this point. they intended and willfully attacked the nuclear power plant itself, despite the resistance ukraine put up. it is clear they are shifting tactics from specific attacks on government and military facilities and now they are going after largely strategic civilian facilities. >> trace: but i wonder because the russian also know upper ratio power plant like all over the world, power plants are very protective and very encased in . these things are tough -- it is very difficult to preach that. so i'm wondering if part of this is, if part of this is for show or scared to be able to tell the ukrainian people, look, we are going all out here. >> trace: that is absolutely the case.

they are showing that they will go after power. i will be surprised if they don't turn the power off, the power being generated from the city, if you will the nuclear power plant. in typically the russians do appear to be changing tactics and shifting to an all-out war, if you will. there is more bombing of civilian areas as mr. putin said this morning in his phone call, things will get worse unless the ukrainian surrender. >> trace: and that ties right back into the heart of your expertise, matthew. there is the fact that vladimir putin has mentioned a couple of times that nuclear weapons are in the picture here. you worry about things like poles flag operations, right come a mistake, a move of desperation. if any one of those things happens in the war changes,

matthew, in an instant. >> yes, sir. and i think the thing is over the past few days, at least, i've been on fox news almost everyday for the past week and in reviewing my notes today from the previous come i i am seeing patterns emerge in that in particular in the past day or so it has been released approximately 25,000 russian dead and wounded. that means roughly 16% of the entire russian invasion force is gone. the russian invasion force literally decimated in ukraine and despite that bloodshed mr. putin says that things are going as planned and they will continue here they will only get worse unless his goals are met. in with ease at which mr. putin 325,000 russian casualties is quite concerning considering the barbaric of the situation. i'm sorry, go ahead. >> trace: the numbers, the

numbers often are correct. russia has pushed back on that. the truth is we don't know how many lives have been lost on the russian side. some say 10,000 and the russians a 500. we think the answer somewhere in between, and yes, a lot of lives. to your point, we understand, but the tens of thousands right now is very unclear. i'm sorry, go ahead. >> the 25,000 number is made up of 10,000 who have died in 15,000 who have been wounded. the way that we got those numbers as the kremlin themselves released their number saying roughly 500 have died in 1500 had been wounded. usually, that is kremlin speak for there are a lot dead and we can no longer hide the fact that there are a lot dead. usually, that means you can multiply that by a factor of at least ten for each number. so that is how we are getting close to that number. >> trace: it is a peer assessment and the kremlin has

tried to hide the bodies of dead russian soldiers. the former fbi director said this about vladimir putin and i will get your reaction. >> this is only going to lead to i think putin's unraveling in terms of his position and russian government. now what will be the tripwire for the oligarchs and the russian people in commodities and other types of things? it is unclear. but i do believe putin's numbers may be on the double digits. >> trace: john brennan has been a wrong on a lot of stuff but do you think is right on this? >> i think there is certainly an element of truth to that. i don't think i would be as optimistic as he is in regards to that but the report from london, there are members of mr. putin's own cabinet largely left in the dark about the invasion and currently terrified to resign in protest because they fear they will be executed

for treason. it is quite extraordinary for major power to be acting like that way. and something that seems it should be out of a movie or at least relegated to history. i think mr. putin's days, he has bet the farm on this. i think it really will come down to, he doesn't rule the consensus of the government in russia. he largely rules of the oligarchs and events of the military. i think that is what is going to be the thing that will be the catalyst to whether or not mr. putin stays. >> trace: it is a good assessment. thank you so much matthew shoemaker for coming on, we appreciate it. >> trace thank you for having me on. >> trace: keeping a close eye as you imagine on the situation in ukraine. we can tell you right now we have confirmed through officials that the fire at the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant was largely attacked by russian forces, the fire is out.

there is no radiation level increase. that is the good news. the bad news is, the attack a lot of analysts believe was intentional. i had a stark warning about just how dire the situation could become next. ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ >> trace: continuing coverage now breaking news of russian troops targeting nuclear plants, the present of ukraine calling on europe to wake up. joined now by dan hoffman fox news contributor and former cia station chief who served in moscow. are you surprised in the land of chernobyl that another nuclear power plant is now playing a role in this war? >> no, i'm not surprised, and honestly this is part of russia's rules of engagement. they don't discriminate among their targets. they are deliberately targeting residential neighborhoods and they're trying to instill fear in the population ukraine. that's how they believe they'll and subdue. not enough to subdue even just kyiv, let alone the rest of the

country. based on what we have seen in the past from russia just leveling russia's military cities recently in syria, this is what we have to expect. these are war crimes, these are blatant lack of regard for the law of armed conflict. >> trace: i guess the scariest part of the statement, dan, there really is a fine line between attacking zaporizhzhia and firing a nuclear weapon. your kind of looking attacks on both things. it really shows you that there is nothing that is off the table when it comes to vladimir putin's war book. >> i can tell you based on my experience at the cia for many years, including multiple years of service overseas in war zones. one of our intelligence requirements was to determine

where the civilian infrastructure was located, particularly nuclear power plants. you draw big red line around that or a circle around it, and ensure that we avoid it, that the u.s. military avoided that target and avoided the collateral damage and noncombatant deaths to innocence. that's actually not the way that russia operates under vladimir putin. >> trace: i wonder when the west starts to look at things differently. how many war crimes, how many atrocities, how many times do you break the rules and the west just keep sending more weapons. is there something that changes the mind-set of nato, the e.u. will come of the united states. speak i know that we have the leverage to alter vladimir putin 's calculus in terms of those te military's choosing. we are not on the ground and we are not on the air. all we can do is continue to

keep ukraine in the fight. every single day they are in the fight, every day president zelenskyy's on twitter and meeting with his people, and mobilizing the international community. president zelenskyy who jolted western democracies out of their post-cold war slumber. every that we can do that, it's the most we can hope for. what we have to hope for and i hate to say it's, it's a rare instance i'm going to agree at least in part with my former director john brennan is that at some point, you've reached a breaking point where the russian military may decide that we just cannot take orders from this guy anymore. vladimir putin is a kgb operative and never commended anybody in the russian military. that the kgb experience in the way that he sees the world, maybe that might conflict at some point with the way that russian military leaders on the ground in ukraine want to conduct their business. >> trace: yeah, good insight.

dan hoffman, good to see you and thank you for coming on, sir. >> thanks, youtube. >> trace: when we come back on the late-breaking updates on the firing of europe's largest power plant. your cranium officials say that the flames have been extinguished, but russian forces have control of the site which might be the most worried something. we have more on the breaking news coming up to my country coming up, continuing coverage. ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ >> trace: continuing coverage and the fox news alert, russia ramping up the war against ukraine and taking on europe's largest nuclear power station, a major threat that one official learned the mike warrants could lead to crisis similar to the chernobyl crisis.