that's what i'd like to know, for the alternative point of view. [laughter] >> it's new york state. [laughter] paul: all right. and remember, if you have your own hit or miss, tweet it to us@jer on fnc. that's it for this week's show. thanks to my panel and thanks to all of you for watching. i'm paul gigot, hope to see you right here next week. arthel: philadelphia is in mourning over a fallen first responder, a firefighter killed in a building collapse this morning. several others pulled from the rubble. the rescue effort lasting hours, now questions on what caused this tragedy. hello, everyone, and welcome to "fox fox news live." i'm arthel neville. eric: hello, everyone, i'm eric shawn. we're also following the record high gas prices and rising inflation continuing to drag down president biden's poll numbers. that approval rating below 40% in one survey. we'll take a look at what caused

this inflation and if it can be tamed. and border patrol agents, we're told, are furious that the department of homeland security is about to discipline their colleagues who were falsely accused of whipping haitian migrants last summer when they were actually using reins of their horses to control those animals. we have live fox team coverage and all these stories for you coast to coast. let's begin first with bill melugin with more on the situation among the border patrol agents because of those photographs that went viral with a lot of false accusations. hey, bill. >> reporter: eric, good afternoon to you. that's exactly right, multiple sources tell me they are irate about this. they feel that the president and other politicians essentially convict these horseback agents before they ever had a chance at an investigation, and now we're hearing they're going to be disciplined. if we can rewind the clock to last september, del rio, those horseback agents were responding to thousands upon thousands of haitians crossing illegally into

texas. quickly, they were falsely accused of whipping those haitian migrants. they do not have whips, they have split reins, but the narrative was off and running, prominent democrats purposing it. maxine waters saying the images were worse than what was witnessed during slavery. a federal source tell me dhs is now going to punish those agent as administratively saying they committed some sort of violation even though they were cleared criminally. we are told they are going to be disciplined in the coming days. texas governor greg abbott said that is absolutely ridiculous. take a listen. >> the biden administration, it still seems intent on punishing those border patrol officers. as governor, i'll be more than happy -- i'd be honored -- to have those border patrol officers be a part of the texas team to secure the border. >> reporter: and then take a look at this graphic right here. skyrocketing numbers of people on the terror watch list

arriving here at our southern border. cbp just releasing this data. take a look at numbers for fiscal year 2022. 50 people on the terror watch list arrested by border patrol here at the southern border already this fiscal year. look how that compares to the previous five years. it was just 26. we are now essentially more than double that number, and we still have four months left in the fiscal year. also want to show to you this video. take a look. this was in roma last night here in the rio grande valley. the the main numbers came out this week, and they are once again historic. more than 329 -- 2 the 39,000 -- 239,000, the highest in history, the third month in a row we've set a new record, also the third month in a row we've had more than 200,000 crossings in a single month. there have now been more than 1.5 million illegal crossings at our southern border, that is bigger than the populations of

boston and seattle put together. take a listen to what former i.c.e. director tom homan had to say about the national security situation down here at our porous southern border. >> this president has created a border crisis, an immigration crisis. when you do that, that causes 70% of border patrol top off the line, 70%, that's when drugs flow and kill 100,000 americans, and that's when the terrorists come across. >> reporter: and, guys, remember last year, fiscal year 20 2021, we set the all-time record with about 1.7 million encounters with migrants here. this year, fiscal year 2022, we are on track to blow last year out of the water. again, we are already at 1.5 million, and we still have four months left to go. we'll send it back to you. eric: you mention administrative issues with the agents on the horses? what could that possibly be if they, indeed, were cleared and

were just trying to control horses? >> reporter: eric, we're wondering the exact same thing. we don't know what those administrative violations are going to be. dhs decided there was no criminal conduct, so they a took the -- kicked it down to cbp's office of professional responsibility. i am told they have found administrative violations. what those are, we do not know, but i'm told the agents are in the process of being notified, and they will have an opportunity to respond to whatever discipline they come down with. they'll have two options. they can either accept the dismoney or they can fight. the border patrol union says they will defend these agents vigorously. eric: and we hope to hear from them. bill melugin, thank you. arthel: eric and bill, thank you. let's bring in former horse patrol agent kathy oliver rahs. i want to get to the border agents, the horseback border agents in a moment, but i want to start -- kind of go down the list of bill melugin's report.

he talked about an uptick in terror watch list arrests. good news is that they're being caught. the bad news is they're taking advantage of the southern border crisis. what more can you tell us about illegal crossings in general? >> well, what ill say is some are being caught. we don't know how many have not been caught, and when you don't have agents on the line working border, they're busy profession and and releasing -- processing and releasing. the subjects are being with released, many of them. we don't know how many have gotten thrun that are on these watch lists. arthel: and as a former customs and border patrol incident investigator, what do you think is missing from the process? >> you asking about the process with the agents -- [inaudible] >> no, i'm talking -- can i beg your pardon, i'm talking about just the crisis down there. what's missing?

why is this such a crisis happening there at our southern border? >> when individuals are released into the united states with no consequence, it's a pull in attracting more people. arthel: is there a percentage of migrants released to relatives in the u.s. who actually show up for legal processing later? >> i'm told that the people that are released -- the numbers of people that do not show up for the court cases are, the number's staggering. arthel: that do cannot show up. so it outweighs those who actually do show up. >> exactly, by far. arthel: all right. now, i want to have you put on your other hat. you're a former cbp horse patrol agent yourself. some of those agents, just to reset it, facing administrative violations by the d health care s. september controversy explode

over images that appear to show agents whipping migrants at southern border. the agents have been cleared of criminal conduct, but again, they face administrative violations. what happened from the border agents' perspective? >> well, from what i can see, and i was a supervisor as well. so the way that i see it is agents used their reins as they're trained to steer the horse, and somebody saw it, misconstrued what happened and jumped the gun, accused them of something and now they're trying to find a reason to punish them. arthel: what are you hearing from the horseback border patrol agents? >> well well, i don't know those particular agents, but the agents that i do know agree that this is not a case with where an agent whips a my grant.

this is a case where the agent used the reins to steer their horse. and they're being punished by that. it's incredible. arthel: and they feel like they're being unfairly punished? i understand that you might believe that this is a political investigation. and if your with assertion is true, what's the fallout? >> well, i mean, just -- what happens is if agents are punished for doing the job in the manner that they were trained to do the job, how can they go out and do their job? arthel: you know, given your unique experience at the southern border, have you been able to secure a meeting with the biden administration to lend your critical assessment and recommendations? >> no. nobody's asked me for my opinion. [laughter] arthel: but you have experience there. unique experience. is it possible -- do you think there would be, it would be received at all if you did try to reach out yourself?

maybe they won't reach out to you, but maybe you could reach out to them. do you think they would, you know, take your calls, so to speak? >> well, i don't have any idea about that, but i would be willing to offer my expertise. i mean, i have the experience. i also have experience with ler. i was investigator for the administrative cases that they're being accused of right now. so that's something that i would be happy to do. arthel: uh-huh. well, maybe someone will reach out to you from the department of homeland security. kathy, thank you very much for joining us today. take care. >> thank you. arthel: eric? eric: well,s a sad day in the city of brotherly love. firefighters in philadelphia mourning tragic loss of one of their own killed in the collapse of a building during a fire early this morning. if -- the fallen firefighter was a 27-year veteran of the state's fire department.

jonathan serrie has more on this. >> reporter: sad day, indeed, eric. the fire broke out around 2 a.m. this morning in a small mix-use with building in the fair hill neighborhood of never. firefighters were able to get the blaze under control within just about 15 minutes, but it's after they went inside about an hour and a half after the fire started, they were inspecting the damage and hen the building collapsed trapping five firefighters and a city building inspector. officials say the incident claimed the life of one of those firefighters who had served the fire department for 27 years. >>@a sad day for the philadelphia fire department. you know, unfortunately, our department lost a member fighting, bravely fighting a fire and the building collapsed after fire was over. >> reporter: the otherfighter

-- firefighters were in stable condition. the building inspector has been treat and released. a witness whose job regularityly takes him to fire scenes says he has never seen anything like this. >> i'm at every fire scene there is. my company goes to every single file. we get referred by insurance companies, and this is by far the worst thing i've of seen, the scariest. >> reporter: although it was obvious that it was the fire that caused the structural weakness as that led the to the building collapsing, the firefighters want to know exactly what was the chain of events leading up to this collapse so they can better anticipate situations like this in the future and hopefully, spare more lives. that investigation is ongoing. eric? eric: jonathan, just so sad,ding thank you. arthel: well, president biden paying price mt. polls as americans struggle to pay for

everything from groceries to gas. lucas tomlinson is live at the white house but first, lucas, if you can, tell us how the president is doing after falling off his bike this afternoon. >> reporter: the president seems to be in good spiritses. he popped up quickly before going to the beach president called on oil industry to produce more fuel, but refiners say they're operating at max capacity, about 95%. >> well, i contacted them, that's what their plans are and to give any possessions that they have. they have over 9,000 leases, 9,000. they could drill but they're not going it. >> reporter: as you mentioned, arthel, president biden fell off his bicycle while going for a ride. he took the spill after coming to a stop to agree supporters. he was quickly joking about incident. now, for weeks biden has been blaming russia for causing

record high gas prices across the cub. last weekend a gallon of regular unleaded gasoline crossing the $5 threshold for the first time in american history. half the country blames biden, 13 blea both biden and putin. global oil production is already within 1% of pre-pandemic levels. about 0 million barrels per day were produced many may, within 3 president of january's record high before the pandemic. meeting saudi arabia's prince next month, mohamed bin salman, known by his initials, mbs. >> i'm not going to meet with mbs, i'm going to a meeting. >> reporter: india with's been doing the most to bail russia out since the invasion of

ukraine. russia's oil experts are have actually increased despite the recession. now it seems we're seeing ability 9 to to -- 900,000 a today. arkansas them? arthel: lucas tomlinson, thank you. and we're going to have more this hour on inflation and the supply chain crisis with entrepreneur and founder of the sharper image. yeah, he'll be coming up later. eric: looking forward to that. well, it's no laughing member for some members of the late show with steven steven colbert. thursday on height. people charged with unlawful entry after responding to a cities you are the can bans call at a house office building. that crew remained inside the building and kept on pill if. ing long after it had closed.

chad pergram with more on this story. >> reporter: eric, a bizarre security breach. cbs' late show came to interview three house democrats, but they overstayed their welcome and were bust by the u.s. cap capitol police. cb says the production team to do interviews. also known for work on saturday night live's f funhouse animated shorts. cbs says the interviews were ealy ranged, pocket was told on thursday morning they interview are adam schiff. capitol police shooed the group away from the 1/6 committee hearing area because they dead not have proper credentials. the house radio/tv gallery deny them credentials because they

are comedy and not news. at some point the group left the house office buildings, but the team was then let back in by an aide to -- sometime after 4 p.m. thursday. fox told ap they thought they had more interviews to do. the teens remained unescorted for hours. the group was arrests after building prosed. they were near the office of gop representative lauren bow bert. they arrested seven people cha and charged them with uni lawful entry. billing was close to individuals, and and individuals were determined to be told to leave earlier in the day. this comes after 1/6 committee released a video of georgia representative barry barry lauder mil giving -- republicans

now claim that democrats have no leg to stand on when it comes to capitol security. >> it's iron kick the democratic staffer who work for adam and i if others, they're the ones 40 who ended up betting arrested by capital bays. >> one telephone made threats to prominent democrats today of the root overyacht with. eric? eric: the colbert seven. all right, chad, thanks very much. well, eric, the recall left the against george bees cone is blitzing -- george fast coven.

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mug. ♪ ♪ arthel: creatics are very vocal about embattled l.a. district attorney george gascon. they blame his progressive policies for the shooting deaths of los angeles area police corporal michael and officer joseph santana. gascon is isn'ted to -- expected to defend his record wednesday

and explain why the suspect was on the street despite multiple convictions. marian rafferty is live with the very latest. >> reporter: the mother of joseph santana placing the death of her son squarely on the policies of george gascon. rookie police officer and 22-year veteran corporal mike pereiras were kill by a suspect who was out on probation. justin floor the rest had pleaded -- floressed had pleaded no contest in 2021. >> i blame the death of my son and his partner on gascon. gascon will never know how i feel. gascon will never know how he destroyed our family. >> reporter: but he defended flores' sentencing saying it was consistent with type of defense and offered his condolences to

the family saying, quote: our hearts break for them as they face this father's day weekend without their loved one. our office has and continued -- and will continue to hold people accountable for their actions. but the el monte police officers' association saying the prosecutorial change he's made is what led to the two officers' deaths at the hand of a convicted felon who would have been in jail under the three strikes policy. >> george gascon, you do not get to continue to use our streets and our brothers and sisters in your experiment. you have failed the public, you have failed these families. you have failed michael and joseph. >> reporter: as recall efforts against him kick into high gear, there are enough signatures to recall him, but they have to be the verifieded, so organizers are hoping to get another 150,000 signatures to make sure that recall goes ahead in the fall. arthel? arthel: such a horrible story. maryann rafferty in los angeles,

thank you. eric: two passengers were injured in a stabbing attack that happened at the san francisco international airport last night. police say a man used some type of edged weapon. this happened about 6 p.m. as the golden state warriors were returning from their nba champion victory in boston. reports there say this happened in a public area at the international terminal. that area was not part of the airport security area. the suspect, we're told, is in custody. no word with on a motive. airport officials say that those victims, they were all treated for minor cuts, and they did continue traveling. arthel? arthel: all right. we now have an exclusive look at new technology coming to the nypd k-9 unit. these hero dogs will wear treadd harnesses -- tredd. they're to find unconventional explosive devices in the subways. alexis mcadams live in new

york city with more on this. >> reporter: huh, a arthel. yeah, it's pretty cool to watch this in action. we had our cameras on the subway systems around new york city. nypd is the only police department in the world that is using this new technology for these dogs. investigators tell us k-9s have have the ability to find what used to be undetectable explosives and keeping people safe on the subways here. now, the new technology was created by the nypd. the department worked with a private tech company that put this all together for them, and it has these harnesses that are equipped with electronics. dog harnesses are on there with a sensor inside, and it can help the officer there detect radiation and other chemical or biological agents that a dog's nose just can't. the nypd says this was necessary in the fight against terrorism. >> just plug and play. so if certain terror groups change their tactics, i can

change sensors and redirect what we needed to do. if they change their tactics, we can go with that. >> reporter: they can make last minute decisions there, which is so important. each harness has multibillion sensors that send readings to a multiple command center and a command post in realtime. many officers track those readings and respond accordingly. the nypd shared this technology with the military and otherred police departments around world. >> i think there's a lot of other police departments in the united states also relying on the nypd for intelligence. and we love that. we want to share intelligence. we want to receive it, we want to share what we have because it makes us strong stronger. that is a very important september 11th lesson that was learned here. of. >> reporter: and these units are going to be critical in the response as we work to keep people safe on the subway. the nypd has been working on technology for about five years and really hit the training hard during the pandemic with those

dogs. and also the first time they pretty much used them was when pope was here visiting new york city, and they think it's going to be a big game-changer. arthel: i tell you, dogs are so smart and so special, and nypd, well, they're the finest. hands down. alexis mcadams, thank you so much. eric. eric: yeah. i love the fact that the dog has a child around the collar. st just wonderful. well, you know, the retail industry cutting orders as inventory piles up thanks to inflation. so what can be done to get ahold of the rising prices we're all seeing on the shelves and bringing them back down? we'll take it up with the founder of the sharper image, richardal meyer, is here -- this he's -- standing by and how you can afford things again. ♪ ♪ for strength and energy. woo hoo! ensure, complete balanced nutrition with 27 vitamins and minerals. and ensure complete

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arthel: time now for a look at some stories we're following this hour. a third person has now died from an attack at a church near birmingham, alabama. the jefferson county district attorney says robert smith was charged with capital murder yesterday. police say he stormed the church on thursday night during a pot luck dinner and started shooting. a former pastor says one churchgoer hit the suspected gunman with a chair and held him until police arrived the mayor of philadelphia identifying the firefighter killed this morn morning as lieutenant sean williamson. five ohs were -- others were pulled from the rubble and are expected to survive. and bitcoin fell 10% today, dropping below $20,000, the lowest since december of 2020. this all comes days after two major cryptocurrency projects collapsed.

♪ >> it's just going to be a -- i have increased a little bit in pricing, but it's just, like, i went and tried to order a box, you know, of clam shells that we put rahs -- pass. -- raspberries in. so there you go. you just double your cost. -- doubled your cost. eric: that's a small business other than telling our stuart varney if on the fox business network just how record high inflation is hurting american farmers, and that's not all. from the big box stores to mom and pop shops, retail has been really getting hit. manufacturing industry is feeling the pinch from higher prices. a recent survey found 59.if 2% of manufacturing leaders believe inflationary pressures would make a recession more likely in the next 12 months.

richard thalheimer is an american entrepreneur and founder of the ceo of the retail giant the sharper image. he's also author of the book, the sharper investor. there's the book and, man, oh man, richard, do we need thatted a vice now. welcome. first, let's start with, you know, as a consumer you go to the store and you see the prices, and you see the sticker, the old price has got a sticker on top of the new price. but behind scenes when you're running retail, how does inflation hurt you guys? >> well, thanks, eric. i think as a retailer, the first thing you to do is try and pass along the cost. your previous guest said sometimes it's difficult another that, but retailers are passing along costs. we see that that every day. eric: so basically, don't blame the retailer. is it the supply chain, is it president's policies, is it vladimir putin, is it ukraine?

what do you see as the greatest pressure right now causing this inflation especially in terms of retail businesses? >> well, that's a good summary. i mean, it started with a lot of money being pumped into consumers' pockets at the start of covid. and then we got the supply chain disruptions, and then we got ukraine. all your experts have already said it. those are the tree big factors, and they're not changing quickly, but they will change by november. eric: you think by november -- does that mean things will start going down, or does it stay up once the, you know, price is set, people can get their dough? >> well, let's talk about that. demand is stretched -- demand destruction is caused by high prices. one of the remedies for high prices is higher prices that causes people to spend less. if for no other reason because they can't fill up their gas tank for $100 to get to the store. so prices will stop increasing, but that doesn't mean they've

gone down. that doesn't mean gasoline's cheaper, that just means it's stop going up, and that is the problem. eric: we did see a few months ago where gasoline prices started to decleese, then -- decrease, then they started to rise up again. what are the pressures that deal with this, and what do you think the administration should do to try to get a handle on this? or is it the fed in. >> well, the fed is certainly trying their hardest i think one of the key things, and this is so interesting because you see it on news every day on fox, the administration claims they're working with the oil and gas industry. the oil and gas industry consistent hi says they're not. they don't feel any friendliness coming from this administration. eric you ran a billion dollar business. and when you see the president blaming oil companies and big corporations, some say that's an easy target. others say, you know, it's true. what's to your sense of that? >> i agree with you, it's an easy target. it's a good politician statementment.

eric: what can -- can big corporations do anything? it's not just government. or are they just in a bind like the rest of us, that they've got to pass on those prices to the rest of us? >> right. in the previous administering, it was so friendly to oil and gas that america reached a new high in america energy independence. day one of the biden presidency the keystone pipeline was shut down, and that attitude has continued despite what they say. eric: also national retail federation in terms of retail stores has some advice. these are three things that they say they want to see. we're going to show them on the screen. first, ease supply chain restrictions, enacting the ocean shipping reform act. i know that gets into the details, but apparently there are all these regulations. they say repeal section 301 tariffs, that's a fancy term for the $126 billion worth of tariffs that president trump put into effect, drop those. that'll lower prices.

and also address labor shortage with immigration reforms. they call it a w visa which, in other words, we warn people who are interneuros, skilled workers and others to try and come in and deal with the labor market because at the same time we have inflation going up, but unemployment is, thankfully, really low. but, you know, this all comes together and collides, and we we feel the effects. what is the one thing that you would like to see president biden do to try and get a handle on the rising inflags? >> -- inflation? >> well, forgive me for being stuck on one point. i think gasoline is probably the single biggest expense for most people when you talk about pain right now. and the quickest, fastest way to solve that problem is get more oil domestically, not go hat in hand to saudi arabia or venezuela. let's just urn on tap right her.

we could still pursue our climate agenda. but for the moment, you've got to get gasoline down. it's almost double. eric: yeah. you know in terms of fracking and other issues, that's one of the points that especially republicans are feeling and, man, you can feel it when you full up at the -- fill up at the pump. richard thalheimer, thank you for joining us on fox news. >> thank you, eric. eric: good to see you. arthel: eric, coming up, we hit road for campaign 2022 with our own rich edson. he's on ground in nashville where georgia senate candidate herschel walker addressed controversy the about his personal life. that's coming up next. ♪ ♪ on't stop! now, subway® is refreshing their catering with easy-order platters and lunchboxes perfect for any party. pool parties... tailgates... holiday parties... even retirement parties. man, i love parties.

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control of congress this all. gop leaders were heard from including former president trump who spoke yesterday. rich edson is live with more on today's action. >> reporter: hey, good afternoon, arthel. the closing hours of the faith and freedom cobigs conference here. we're not quite done yet. former secretary of state mike pompeo owe is expected to speak in just a few hours, but the idea is to boost conservatives ahead of the midterm elections, trying to give conservatives an advantage going into those all-important midterms. georgia republican senate candidate herschel walker spoke this afternoon after recently acknowledging he has three other children with multiple women that he had not discussedded -- discussed publicly. he addressed the controversy in front of religious conservatives here. >> i'm tired of people misleading my family. i love my kids, first of all, and they knew truth, they saw the truth, and they still wrote the article. but i need to let them know, no

weapon formed against me should ever prosper. [laughter] [cheers and applause] >> reporter: rnc chair ronna mcdaniel says she fully expects republicans to take control of the house, focusing on economy, gas prices and education. as for the senate, she says it's a little more difficult math for republicans, they're defending more seats this cycle, senator rick scott is charge of getting republicans elected. he refused to guarantee republican control though he says he's confident as long as they continue to raise money and their candidates run good races. former president donald trump was the key note speaker yesterday. he ripped into democrats and former vice president mike pence for refusing to try to overturn the election january 6th. a former official testified to the january 6th committee that trump call pence a wimp. trump denied that yesterday. he has also floated running again in 2024, did so yesterday though he has not officially declared that he is a candidate for president again in 2024.

arthel in. arthel: all right. rich edson, thank you very much. eric. eric: you know, arthel, we just reported on calls to cut tariffs to help cool inflation. president biden says he's considering, well, almost just that, easing tariffs on china. would that work? this as tensions rise between beijing and taiwan. author and gatestone institute senior fellow gordon chang is here on that next. ♪ ♪ ♪ well, the stock is bubbling in the pot ♪ ♪ just till they taste what we've got ♪ [ tires squeal, crash ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? [ cheering ] [♪♪] now, where were we? if you have diabetes, it's important to have confidence in the nutritional drink you choose. try boost glucose control®. it's clinically shown to help manage blood sugar levels

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[inaudible conversations] >> -- talk to you on my vacation. >> have you made up your mine on china tariffs, sir? >> we're in the process of doing that. arthel: that is president biden talking to a group of reporters this afternoon. and while he ponders lifting tariffs on china, tensions keep rising between beijing and taiwan. china now threaten -- threatening the island nation with, quote, accelerated demise after a lawmaker says it has

supersonic missiles capable of reaching beijing. let's bring in gordon chang, author of "the coming collapse of china". so, gordon, first off, what do you make of this announcement from the president that taiwanese legal assembly that taipei can strike chinese cities with medium-range cruise missiles? >> i think that it's important that china uns that it is at risk. -- understands that it is at risk. and the reason is although if you were living in beijing you'd be unnerved by an announcement like that, it actually in a broader context reestablishes deterrence because it says to china that they will pay a cost. and so i think it's important especially because united states has not told the taiwanese or the chinese that they will defend taiwan. and so taiwan's got to defend itself. arthel: so then, ultimately, would you expect china to invade taiwan? and also what's president xi jinping, his takeaway, as he watches russia's invasion of

ukraine? >> i think that if xi jinping saw what happened in ukraine, he was emboldened to go after taiwan because there was a failure of american policy to stop the russians each though, you know, the united states, european union, great britain, so much more powerful than russia, we failed to stop the moscow. and so i think that china believes there would be a similar failure with regard to taiwan. and also the sanctions regime that we put in place, while it worked at first, doesn't seem to be working very well now. and i think china believes that it could avoid sanctions or the effect of sanctions, and that would further encourage china to move against one of its neighbors including taiwan. arthel: so you heard president biden saying that, yeah, he's planning to talk to president xi jinping. can these reported talks between the two presidents produce any progress, gordon? >> well, they can produce progress potentially, but in the past conversations that biden has had with i- -- xi jinping,

they've been dead can locked, and really what they've been doing is talking at each other: i wouldn't expect progress time either. what we need to do is impose great costs on china to give china an incentive to do what we want. so far president biden has not been willing to do that. arthel: so what's those incentives you're talking about? >> well, i think that we should be increasing the section 301 tariffs, for instance. i think that we should be reducing trade and investment. those are things that china needs right now especially because its economy is in difficult situation. the economy there is contracting, there's a debt crisis is. they really need us at this time, and i think that if biden were to make it clear that there were costs for bad chinese behavior, then i think beijing might actually move in the right direction. but until he's willing to do that, i don't see the chinese being cooperative. arthel: what are the 301 tariffs? >> the 301 tariffs were impose by president trump beginning in

2018. they were a remedy for the theft of intellectual property. they will lapse fairly soon, but there's been talk -- as you heard -- that president biden might lift them before then. i think that that would be a mistake from a number of reasons. and if he does do it, i think he needs to say to the american people what he's going to do about the theft of u.s. ip because that is in the hundreds of billions of dollars a year, arthel, probably around $500 billion, is consensus estimate ises. arthel: so, gordon, where do you see this going? it seems to be quite a conundrum, you know? i don't see what the right answer, if there's a real clear answer as to what president biden should be doing. >> yeah. i mean, peace problems go back before biden's presidency, but clear clearly the chinese do not respect the united states. they believe we're in terminal decline. we are not deterring them as we know from officials, can chinese officials, chinese propaganda. so this is not going in the right direction at all.

arthel: is that a valid, real quickly, is that a valid assessment, that, you know, the u.s. is in decline on world stage? real quickly. >> no, it's not. especially as we go into a downturn. we're self-sufficient in food and potentially in energy. we will emerge from this stronger on a relative basis. arthel: all right. gordon chang, as always, thank you very much. >> thank you, arthel. arthel: yeah, absolutely. hey, eric? eric: yes, ma'am. arthel: a happy early father's day for you. what's oliver doing for you tonight? [laughter] eric: thank you. i've probably got to wake him up and tell you it's -- tell him it's father's day. to all the fathers out there, an early happy father's day. we love you, arthel. arthel: love you. [laughter] eric: thank you. ♪ ♪ what drives you? what do you want to leave behind?

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♪ >> hi everybody. welcome to "the big saturday show" and our brand, here we are >> brand-new studio. we are altogether we made it we got on our flights. read new york city altogether again. i want to find out how to be around people again. >> only live from the west coast and right next to katy it is real. >> we are excited to talk about all