>> i wonder how elon musk would feel about this, i think we know. >> all about the blessing, if everyone is doing it, then -- all right, guys, thanks for watching. stay tuned to john and anita at the top of the hour. see you all tomorrow. ♪♪♪ >> john: and good day, this is fox news special coverage of the fourth public hearing in the house select committee investigation of the january 6th capitol riot. good day, john roberts in washington. multiple public hearings have been taking place over the last couple of weeks and there are still more ahead. today the hearing is going to focus on claims that former president donald trump tried to pressure state legislatures against certifying the 2020 election results while creating an alternative slate of pro

trump electors. we are going to hear from four witnesses this afternoon, including the secretary of state for georgia, brad raffensperger and his chief operating officer, gabriel sterling, big public figures in the wake of the november election in 2020. the committee says it's going to show evidence that former president trump put undue pressure on legislatures to try to put forward alternative slates and electors. for president trump, the strategy did not work, legislatures did not go along with it. you see betty thompson taking it there, much of the questioning will be handled by california congressman adam schiff as he questions the witnesses and makes the majority of the presentation. liz cheney there seated to betty thompson's left-hand side, adam schiff on the right-hand side.

we expect the hearing will last at least a couple of hours. let's pause now while chairman thompson gavels in today's hearing. >> the select committee to investigate the january 6th attack on the united states capitol will be in order. without objection, the chair is authorized to declare the committee in recess at any point. pursuant to house deposition authority regulation 10, the chair announces the committee's approval to release the deposition material presented during today's hearing. good afternoon. at our last hearing we told the story of a scheme driven by donald trump to pressure former vice president mike pence to

illegally overturn the election results. we showed that when the pressure campaign failed and mike pence fulfilled his constitutional obligation, donald trump turned a violent mob loose on him. we showed that the mob came within roughly 40 feet of the vice president. today we'll show that what happened to mike pence wasn't an isolated part of donald trump's scheme to overturn the election. in fact, pressuring public servants into betraying their oaths was a fundamental part of the playbook. and a handful of election officials in several key states stood between donald trump and up ending of american democracy. as we began today, it's important to remember when we count the votes for president we count the votes state by state.

for the most part, the candidates who win the popular vote in a state wins all the state's electoral college votes, and whoever wins a majority of the electoral college votes wins the presidency. so when donald trump tried to overturn the election results he focused on just a few states. he wanted officials at the local and state level to say the vote was tainted by widespread fraud and throw out the results, even though as we showed last week there wasn't any voter fraud that could have overturned the election results. and like mike pence, these public servants wouldn't go along with donald trump's scheme. and when they would not embrace the big lie and substitute the will of the voters with donald trump's will to remain in power, donald trump worked to ensure they face the consequences.

threats to people's livelihood and lives, threats of violence that donald trump knew about and amplified, and in our other hearings we can't just look back at what happened in late 2020 and early 2021 because the danger hadn't gone away. our democracy endured a mighty test on january 6th and in the days before. we say our institutions held. but what does that really mean? democratic institutions aren't abstractions or ideas. they are local officials who oversee elections. secretaries of state, people in whom we placed our trust that they will carry out their duties. what if they don't? two weeks ago new mexico held its primary elections. one county commission refused to certify the results citing vague

unsupported claims dealing with dominion voting machines. the court stepped in saying new mexico law required the commission to certify the results. two of the three members of the commission finally relented. one still refused saying his vote "isn't based on any evidence, it's not based on any facts, it's only based on my gut feeling and my own intuition and that's all i need." by the way, a few months ago this county commissioner was found guilty of illegally entering the capitol grounds on january 6th. this story reminds us of a few things. first, as we have shown in our previous hearings, claims that widespread voter fraud tainted the 2020 presidential election

have always been a lie. donald trump knew they were a lie and he kept amplifying them anyway. everything we describe today, the relentless destructive pressure campaign on state and local officials was all based on a lie. donald trump knew it, he did it anyway. second, the lie has not gone away. it's corrupting our democratic institutions. people who believe that lie are now seeking positions of public trust and as seen in new mexico, oath to the people they serve will take a back seat to their commitment to the big lie. if that happens, who will make sure our institutions don't break under the pressure? we won't have close calls, we'll have a catastrophe. my distinguished colleague from

california, mr. adam schiff, will present much of the findings on this matter. first, our vice chair, miss cheney, from wyoming, with statements she would like to offer. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. we will examine president trump's effort to overturn the election. donald trump had a direct and personal role in this effort, as did rudy giuliani, as did john eastman. in other words, the same people who were attempting to pressure vice president mike pence to reject electoral votes illegally were also simultaneously working to reverse the outcome of the 2020 election at the state level. each of these efforts to overturn the election independently serious, each deserves attention both by congress and by our department

of justice. but, as a federal court has already indicated, these efforts were also part of a broader plan and all of this was done in preparation for january 6th. i would note two points for particular focus today. first, today you will hear about calls made by president trump to officials of georgia and other states. as you listen to these tapes, keep in mind what donald trump already knew at the time he was making those calls. he had been told over and over again that his stolen election allegations were nonsense. for example, this is what former attorney general bill barr said to president trump about allegations in georgia. >> we took a look, hard look at this ourselves and based on our review of it, including the interviews of the key witnesses, the fulton county allegations

were, had no merit. the ballots under the table were legitimate ballots, they were not in a suitcase, they had been preopened for eventually feeding into the machine, all the stuff about the water leak and some issue involved, we felt there was some confusion but no evidence of a subterfuge to feed things into the count, so we didn't see any evidence of fraud in the fulton county episode. >> and acting deputy attorney general richard donahue told donald trump this. >> and i said something to the effect of sir, we have done dozens of investigations, hundreds of interviews, the major allegations are not supported by the evidence developed. >> mr. trump was told by his own advisers that he had no basis for his stolen election claim.

yet he continued to pressure state officials to change the election results. second, you will hear about a number of threats and efforts to pressure state officials to reverse the election outcome. one of our witnesses today, gabriel sterling, explicitly warned president trump about potential violence on december 1, 2020, more than a month before january 6th. you will see excerpts from that video repeatedly today. >> it had all gone too far. all of it. asked for a patriot to be shot. a 20 something tech has death threats and a noose put out so he should be hung for treason,

he was transferring from e.m.s. to a county computer so he could read it. it has to stop. mr. president, you have not condemned these actions or this language. senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions. this has to stop. we need you to step up and if you are going to take a position of leadership, show some. my boss, secretary raffensperger, his address is out there. they have people doing caravans in front of their house, people come on to their property. it has to stop. this is elections. this is the backbone of democracy, and all of you who have not said a damn word are complicit in this. >> the point is this. donald trump did not care about

the threats of violence. he did not condemn them, he made no effort to stop them. he went forward with his fake allegations anyway. one more point, i would urge all of those watching today to focus on the evidence the committee will present. don't be distracted by politics. this is serious. we cannot let america become a nation of conspiracy theories and thug violence. finally, i want to thank our witnesses today for all of your service to our country. today all of america will hear about the selfless actions of these men and women who acted honorably to uphold the law and protect the constitution. we will see an example of what truly makes america great. thank you, mr. chairman, i yield back. >> without objection the chair recognizes the gentleman from

california mr. adam schiff for opening statement. >> thank you, mr. chairman and madam vice chair. november 3, 2020, donald trump ran for re-election to office of the presidency and he lost. his opponent, joe biden, finished ahead in the key battleground states of arizona, michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, georgia, and elsewhere. nevertheless, and for the first time in history, the losing presidential candidate fought to hold on to power. as we have seen in previous hearings, he did so through a variety of means. on election day, he sought to stop the counting of the vote, knowing that the millions of absentee ballots election officials would be counting on election day and thereafter would run strongly against him and deliver a victory to joe biden. next and when he could not stop the counting, he tried to stop state legislatures and governors from certifying the results of the election. he went to court and filed

dozens of frivolous lawsuits making unsubstantiated claims of fraud when that failed, a pressure campaign directed at state legislators to get them to go back into session and either declare him the winner, decertify joe biden as the winner, or send two slates of electors to congress, one for biden, and one for him. and pressure vice president pence to choose him as the winner. but the state legislatures would not go along with this scheme, and neither would the vice president. none of the legislatures agreed to go back into special session and declare him the winner. no legitimate state authority in the states donald trump lost would agree to appoint fake trump electors and send them to congress. but this did not stop the trump campaign either. they assembled groups of individuals in key battleground states and got them to call themselves electors, created

phony certificates associated with the fake electors, and then transmitted these certificates to washington, and to the congress, to be counted during the joint session of congress on january 6th. none of this worked. but according to federal district judge david carter, former president trump and others likely violated multiple federal laws by engaging in this scheme, including conspiracy to defraud the united states. you will hear evidence of the former president and his top advisers' direct involvement in key elements of the plot, what judge carter called a coup in search of a legal theory. as the judge explained, president trump's pressure campaign to stop the electoral count did not end with vice president pence. it targeted every tier of federal and state elected officials, convincing state legislatures, he said, to

certify competing electors was essential to stop the count and ensure president trump's re-election. as we have seen in our prior hearings, running through this scheme was a big lie that the election was plagued with massive fraud and somehow stolen. you'll remember what the president's own attorney general, bill barr, said he told the president about these claims of massive fraud affecting the outcome of the election. >> and i told him that the stuff that his people were shovelling out to the public was bull [bleep], that the claims of fraud were bull [bleep]. >> the president's lie was, and is, a dangerous cancer on the body of politic. if you can convince americans they cannot trust their own elections, that any time they lose is somehow illegitimate, what is left by violence to determine who should govern. this brings us to the focus of

today's hearing. when state elections officials refused to stop the count, donald trump and his campaign tried to put pressure on them. state executive officials refused to certify him the winner of states he lost, he applied more pressure. when state legislators refused to go back into session and appoint trump electors, he amped up the pressure yet again. anyone who got in the way of donald trump's hold on power was the subject of a dangerous and escalating campaign of pressure. pressure campaign brought angry phone calls and texts, armed protests, intimidation, and all too often, threats of violence and death. state legislators were singled out, so, too, were statewide elections officials. even local elections workers diligently doing their jobs were accused of being criminals and

had their lives turned upside down. as we will show, the president's supporters heard the former president's claims of fraud and the false allegations he made against state and local officials as a call to action. >> stop the steal, stop the steal, stop the steal. you are a threat to democracy. you are a threat to free and honest elections. >> we love america, we love our freedom. >> you are a felon, you must turn yourself into the authorities immediately. >> about 45 minutes later we started to hear the noises outside my home and my stomach sunk and i thought it's me, and then it's just, we don't know what's -- and the uncertainty of that was what was the fear, like

are they coming with guns, are they going to attack my house, i'm in here with my kids, trying to put them to bed, and so that was the most scary moment, just not knowing what was going to happen. >> this pressure campaign against state and local officials spanned numerous contested states. as you will see in this video produced by the select committee. >> my name is josh, investigative counsel for the house select committee to investigate the january # attack on the united states capitol. president and his lawyer started appearing before state legislators, urging them to give their electoral votes to trump, even though he lost the popular vote. >> i represent president trump along with chad ellis, and this is our fourth or fifth hearing. >> this election has to be turned around because we won pennsylvania by a lot and we won all of these swing states by a lot.

>> this was a strategy with both practical and legal elements. the select committee obtained an email from two days after the election in which a trump campaign lawyer named mitchell asked another trump lawyer, john eastman, to write a memo justifying the idea. >> when do you remember this coming up as an option in the post election period for the first time? >> right after the election. it might have been before the election. >> eastman prepared a memo attempting to have the strategy, given to rudy giuliani and state legislators and before the georgia state legislature. >> could do what the florida legislature is prepared to do, adopt a slate of electors yourselves. and when you add in the mix of the significant statistical and sworn affidavits and video evidence of outright election fraud, i don't think it's just your authority to do that, but quite frankly, i think you have a duty to do that to protect the

integrity of the election here in georgia. >> republican officials in several states released public statements recognizing that president trump's proposal was unlawful. for instance, georgia governor brian kemp called the proposal unconstitutional, and one from arizona said it would undermine the rule of law. the pressure campaign to get state legislators to go along with the scheme intensified, president trump invited delegations from michigan to the white house. >> did you make the point you were not going to do anything to violate michigan law. >> i believe we did. whether those exact words, the words i would have more likely used, we are going to follow the law. >> nevertheless, the pressure continued. the next day president trump tweeted "hopefully the courts and/or legislatures will have the courage to do what has to be done to maintain the integrity

of our election and the united states of america itself. the world is watching." he posted multiple messages on facebook, listing contact information for state officials and urging supporters to contact them to "demand a vote on decertification." in one of the post, president trump disclosed mike shirke's personal phone number to millions of followers. >> all i remember is receiving over just shy of 4,000 text messages in a short period of time, calling to take action. there was a loud noise, loud consistent cadence of, you know, we hear that the trump folks are calling and asking for changes in electors and you guys can do this. well, you know, they were believing things that were

untrue. >> these efforts also involved targeted outreach to state legislators. >> hi, my name is angela, calling from trump campaign headquarters in washington, d.c. you do have the power to reclaim your authority and send a slate of electors that will support president trump and vice president pence. >> from president trump's lawyers and from trump himself. >> and i become friendly with legislators that i didn't know four weeks ago. >> another legislator, pennsylvania house speaker brian cutler, received daily voice mails from trump's lawyers in the last week of november. >> mr. speaker, this is rudy giuliani and janet ellis, we are calling you together because we would like to discuss obviously the election. >> hello, mr. speaker, this is janet ellis, here with mayor rudy giuliani. >> he brian, it's rudy, i have something to call to your

attention that changes things. >> cutler felt it was inappropriate, and asked the lawyers to ask him to stop calling. >> i understand you don't want to talk to me now, i want to bring facts to your attention and talk to you as a fellow republican. >> december 30th, trump ally steve bannon announced a protest at cutler's home. >> we're getting on the road and going to cutler, and going to offices and if we have to, go to homes and let them know what we think about them. >> there were multiple protests, i don't know the exact number, at least three i think outside either my district office or my home and you are correct, my son, my 15-year-old son was home by himself for the first one. all of my personal information was doxxed online. my personal email, personal cell phone, home phone number. we had to disconnect our home phone for about three days, it will ring all hours of the night and fill up with messages.

>> brian cutler, we are outside. >> clerk facing felony charges in michigan. >> another element in the effort. trump campaign spent millions running ads online and on television. >> evidence is overwhelming. call your governor and legislators, demand they inspect the machines and hear the evidence. >> public pressure on state officials often grew dangerous in the lead up to january 6th. >> let us in, let us in, let us in, let us in. >> let's go sessions, let's go sessions. >> house set on fire. >> what can you and i do to a state legislator besides kill them, i'm not advising that, but what else can you do, right? >> the punishment for treason is death.

>> state pressure campaign and the danger it posed to officials and capitols around the nation was a dangerous precursor to the violence we saw on january 6th at the u.s. capitol. you will hear from rusty bowers and tell you about conversations with rudy giuliani and john eastman and what the president's team asked of him and how his oath of office would not permit. then hear from brad raffensperger, from georgia, trump said find 780 votes that did not exist, but the number needed to overtake joe biden. also hear from gabriel sterling, his chief operating officer about the claims of fraud in the elections in georgia, and who responding to a cascading set of threats to his elections team warned the president to stop,

that someone was going to get killed. and you will hear from another, a former local elections worker in fulton county, georgia, about how all the lies about the election impacted the lives of real people who administer our elections and still do. you'll hear what they experienced when the most powerful man in the world, the president of the united states, sought to cling to power after being voted out of office by the american people. the system held but barely. and the system held because people of courage, republicans and democrats, like the witnesses you will hear today, put their oath to the country and constitution above any other consideration. they did their jobs as we must do ours. thank you, mr. chairman. and i yield back. >> i now welcome our first panel of witnesses.

we are joined today by distinguished legislator from arizona, rusty bowers, who is a republican speaker of arizona house of representatives. mr. bower was first elected to the state legislature in 1993 and served as speaker since 2019. welcome, mr. bowers. brad raffensperger, he is responsible for supervising elections in georgia and maintaining the state's public records. welcome, mr. secretary. gabriel sterling is a chief operating officer in the georgia secretary of state's office. mr. sterling was the statewide voting systems implementation manager for the 2020 election in georgia, responsible for leading

the secretary of state's response to the covid pandemic and rolling out modernized voting equipment. i will swear in our witnesses. witnesses will please stand and raise their right hand. >> do you swear or affirm on the penalty of perjury the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god? thank you, please be seated. let the record reflect the witnesses answered in the affirmative. speaker bowers, thank you for being with us today. you are the speaker of the arizona house and a self-described conservative republican. you campaigned for president trump and with him during the 2020 election. is it fair to say that you wanted donald trump to win a second term in office?

please. >> yes, sir, sir. >> and is it your understanding that president biden was the winner of the popular vote in arizona in 2020? >> yes, sir. >> thank you. pursuant to section 5c8 of house resolution 503, the chair recognizes the gentleman from california, mr. schiff, for questions. >> speaker bowers, thank you for being with us today. before we begin with the questions i have prepared for you, i want to ask about a statement former president trump issued i received just prior to the hearing. have you had a chance to review that statement? >> my counsel called from arizona and read it to me, yes, sir. >> in that statement i won't read in its entirety, former president trump begins by calling you an rino, republican in name only. he then references a

conversation in november 2020 in which he claims that you told him that the election was rigged and that he had won arizona. to quote the former president, during the conversation he told me the election was rigged andd that i won arizona. did you have such a conversation with the president? >> i did have a conversation with the president. that certainly isn't it. there were parts of it that are true, but there are parts that are not, sir. >> and the part that i read you, is that false? >> anywhere, anyone, any time has said i said the election was rigged, that would not be true. >> and when the former president in his statement today claimed that you told him that he won arizona, is that also false? >> that is also false.

>> mr. bowers, i understand after the election and i don't know whether this is the conversation the former president is referring to, but after the election you received a phone call from president trump and rudy giuliani in which they discussed the result of the presidential election in arizona. if you would, tell us about that call and whether the former president or mr. guliani raised allegations of election fraud. >> thank you. my wife and i had returned from attending our church meetings, it was on a sunday and we were still in the driveway and i had received a call from a colleague telling me that the white house was trying to get in touch with her and i and that she said please, if you get a call, let's try to take this together. immediately i saw that the white house on my bluetooth was calling, and i took the call and was asked by, i would presume the operator at the white house if i would hold for the

president, which i did, and mr. guliani came in first and nicities, and then president trump came on and initiated a conversation. >> during that conversation did you ask mr. guliani for proof of these allegations of fraud that he was making? >> on multiple occasions, yes. >> and when you asked him for evidence of this, what did he say? >> he said that they did have proof and i asked him do you have names? for example, 200,000 illegal immigrants, some large number. 5 or 6,000 dead people, etc. and i said do you have their names? yes. will you give them to me? yes. the president interrupted and said give the man what he needs, rudy. he said i will.

and that happened on at least two occasions, that interchange in the conversation. >> mr. rudy giuliani was claiming there were hundreds of thousands of illegal and dead people voted in the election? >> yes. >> you asked for evidence of that? >> i did. >> did you ever receive from him that evidence either during the call, after the call, or to this day? >> never. >> what was the ask during this call? he was making these allegations of fraud but he had something or a couple things that they wanted you to do. what were those? >> the ones i remember were first that we would hold, that i would allow an official committee at the capitol so that they could hear this evidence and that we could take action thereafter. and i refused. i said up to that time the

circus, i called it a circus, had been brewing with lots of demonstrations, both at the counting center, at the capitol and other places, and i didn't want to have that in the house. i did not feel that the evidence, granted in its absence, merited a hearing and i did not want to be used as a pawn if there was some other need that the committee hearing would fulfill. so that was the first ask that we hold an official committee hearing. >> and what was his second ask? >> i said to what end, to what end the hearing. he said well, we have heard by an official high up in the republican legislature that there is a legal theory or a legal ability in arizona that you can remove the electors of

president biden and replace them and we would like to have a legitimate opportunity through the committee to come to that end and remove that, and i said that's -- that's totally new to me. i've never heard of any such thing. and he pressed that point and i said look, you are asking me to do something that is counter to my oath when i swore to the constitution to uphold it, and i also swore to the constitution and the laws of the state of arizona and this is totally foreign as an idea or a theory to me and i would never do anything of such magnitude without deep consultation with qualified attorneys and i said i've got some good attorneys and i'm going to give you their names.

but you are asking me to do something against my oath and i will not break my oath. and up to that point -- >> during the conversation, and you've heard i think when we played a snippet of mr. gulliani calling other legislators, and a fellow republican, did he bring up the fact you shared a similar party. >> whether it was that call or later meeting, he did bring that up more than once. >> how did he bring that up? >> he would say aren't we all republicans here, i would think we would get a better reception, i would think you would listen a little more open to my suggestions, we are all republican. >> and this evidence that you asked him for that would justify this extraordinary step, i think you said they never produced, why do you feel in the absence of that evidence, or what they were asking you to do would

violate our oath to the constitution? >> first of all, when the people and in arizona i believe some 40 plus years earlier the legislature had established the manner of electing our officials, or the electors for the presidential race. once it was given to the people as in bush v. gore, illustrated by the supreme court, it becomes a fundamental right of the people. so as far as i was concerned, for someone to ask me in, there was no evidence being presented of any strength. evidence can be hearsay evidence, it's still evidence, but it's still hearsay, but strong judicial quality evidence. anything that would say to me you have a doubt, deny your

oath. i will not do that. and on more than -- on more than one occasion throughout all this, that has been brought up and it is a tenet of my faith that the constitution is divinely inspired of my most basic foundational beliefs. and so for me to do that, because somebody just asked me to? is foreign to my very being. i -- i will not do it. >> during that conversation, speaker bowers, did you ask him of what he was proposing had ever been done before? >> i did. >> and what did he say? >> he said well i'm not familiar with arizona laws or any other

laws, but i don't think so. and that also was brought up in other conversations both with him and with john eastman and others. >> speaker bowers i understand a week after that call mr. giuliani appeared with others associated with mr. president trump's efforts to overturn the election at a hotel ballroom in phoenix. was this an official hearing of the legislature? >> it was not. >> and why was it not a real official hearing of the legislature? >> a legislator can hold a group meeting, he can call it a hearing. but when they asked me to have an official hearing, establish it by protocols, public notice, etc., it's typically held at the capitol but doesn't need to be. we can authorize a hearing off campus, and in this case i had been asked on several occasions

to allow a hearing. i denied it. but said you are free to hold a meeting, any meeting you want to the person who asked, and which he ultimately did. i think he was a little frustrated but he ultimately did. >> this meeting was the same day, i believe, that the governor of arizona, doug doocy, certified biden as the winner in arizona. did you meet with mr. giuliani and his associates after the purported legislative meeting at the hotel? >> i did, sir. >> did mr. giuliani raise any specific allegations of election fraud again? >> his initial comments were again the litany of groups of illegal individuals or people deceased, etc. and he had brought that up. and i wasn't alone in that meeting, there were others, and other members of the senate

aggressively questioned him, and then i proceeded to question him on the proof that he was going to bring me, etc. he did bring those up, yes. >> and these other legislators were also republican members of the senate? >> they were, yes, sir. >> and did they also press him for proof of these allegations? >> they pressed him very strongly. two of them especially, very strongly. >> and at some point did mr. giuliani ask one of the other attorneys on his team to help him out with the evidence? >> he did. he asked jenna ellis, sitting to his right. one thing was, it was more to the point of was there sufficient evidence or action that we could justify the recalling of the electors. but that part of the conversation he referred to someone else but did ask do we have the proof, to jenna,

miss ellis and she said yes, and i said i want the names. do you have the names? yes. do you have how they voted? we have all the information. i said can you get to me that information? did you bring it with you? she said no, both mr. giuliani and i asked generally if they brought it with them. she said no, it's not with me but we can get it to you. and i said then you didn't bring me the evidence which was repeated in different iterations for some period of time. >> at some point did one of them make a comment that they didn't have evidence but they had a lot of theories? >> that was mr. giuliani. >> what exactly did he say and how did that come up? >> my recollection, he said we've got lots of theories, we just don't have the evidence. and i don't know if that was a gaffe or maybe he didn't think through what he said, but both myself and others in my group,

the three in my group and my counsel both remembered that specifically and afterwards kind of laughed about it. >> and getting back to the ask in that phone call that preceded this meeting, he wanted you to have the legislature dismiss the biden electors and replaced them with trump electors on the basis of theories of fraud? >> he did not say it in those exact words but he did say that arizona law, according to what he understood, that that would be allowed and we needed to come into session to take care of that. which initiated a discussion about, again, what i can legally and not legally do and i can't go into session in arizona unilaterally or on my sole thought. >> this meeting or any other later time, did anyone provide you with election fraud sufficient to affect the outcome of the presidential race in

arizona? >> no one provided me such evidence. >> the select committee has evidence that the protests across the country, individuals with ties to parties on the attack on the capitol hill. one took place in the arizona house of representatives building as you can see in this footage. this is previously undisclosed video of protestors illegally entering and refusing to leave the one. one individual is jacob chansley. perhaps better known as the qanon shaman, he entered the capitol on january 6th, photographed leaving a threatening note on the dias in the chamber and sentenced to 41 months in prison after pleading guilty to obstruction of an

official proceeding. other protestors who occupied the arizona house of representatives building included proud boys, men armed with rifles stood outside the entrance. i understand these protestors were calling for you by name, speaker bowers, is that correct? >> that is correct. >> speaker bowers, did the president call you again in later in december? >> he did, sir. >> did you tell the president in that second call that you supported him, that you voted for him, but that you were not going to do anything illegal for him? >> i did, sir. >> nevertheless, his lawyer, john eastman called you some days later on june 4, 2021. and he did have a very specific ask that would have required you do what you told the president you wouldn't do, something that would violate your oath, is that correct? >> that's correct. it wasn't just me, i had my counsel and others on the call. >> and what did dr. eastman want you to do?

>> that we would, in fact, vote, take a vote, to overthrow, i shouldn't say overthrow, that we would decertify the electors and that because we had plenary authority to do so, and he cited article 2, section 1, i think clause 2, and said that in his opinion that gave us the authority if there was -- i don't recall him saying sufficient evidence, but there was some call or some strong reason to do so, or justification to do so, that we could do that. and that he was asking that we -- his suggestion was that we would do it and i said again, i took an oath for me to take that, to do what you do, would be counter to my oath.

i don't recall if it was in that conversation clearly that we talked more about the oath but i said what would you have me do? and he said just do it and let the court sort it out. and i said you are asking me to do something that's never been done in history, the history of the united states, and i'm going to put my state through that without sufficient proof and that's going to be good enough with me? that i would -- i would put us through that, my state, that i swore to uphold both in constitution and in law, no, sir. he said well, that's my suggestion would be just do it and let the courts figure it all out, and i didn't use that exact

phrase but that was what he, his meaning was and i declined and i believe that was close to the end of our phone call. >> and again, this took place after you had recently spoken with president trump and told him that you wouldn't do anything illegal for him, is that right? >> it wasn't days after, obviously it was days after, but a few days had gone by. >> but you had told president trump you would not do anything illegal for him? >> i did. both times. >> and you told dr. eastman that you did not believe there was legal support to justify what he was asking but he still wanted you to do it and effectively let the courts work it out? >> i've been warned, don't say things you think maybe he said, but i do remember him saying that the authority of the legislature was plenary and that you can do it. i said then you should know i can't even call the legislature into session without a

two-thirds majority vote. we are only 30 plus one. there's no way that could happen. >> but in your view what he was asking you to do would violate your oath to the constitution, both the united states constitution and the constitution of the state of arizona? >> yes, sir. >> did you also receive a call from u.s. representative and di biggs from arizona on the morning of january 6th. >> i did. >> what did he ask you to do? >> i believe that was the day the vote was occurring to each state to have certification, or to declare the certification of the electors and he asked if i would sign on both to a letter that had been sent from my state and/or that i would support the decertification of the electors, and i said i would not. >> mr. speaker, on december 4,

2020, shortly after your meeting with rudy giuliani and other allies of president trump, you released a statement calls for the legislature to overturn the 2020 certified election results. the statement is very straightforward in explaining the "breathtaking request" made by representatives of president trump. "that the arizona legislature overturn the certified results of last month's election and deliver the state's electoral college votes to president trump." why did you believe as you wrote in this statement that the rule of law forbid you from doing what president trump and his allies wanted you to do? >> representative, i'm sorry, i should be saying mr. chairman, representative schiff, the -- there's two sides to the answer. one is what am i allowed to do and what am i forbidden to do.

we have no legal pathway, both in state law nor to my knowledge in federal law, for us to execute such a request. and i am not allowed to walk or act beyond my authority. if i'm not specifically authorized as a legislator, as a legislature, then i cannot act. the point of calling us into session. some say that just a few legislators have plenary authority, and that is part of all of this discussion, i'll call it. but so to not have authority and be forbidden to act beyond my authority on both counts, i am not authorized to take such action and that would deny my oath. >> in your statement you included excerpts from president ronald reagan's inaugural

address in 1981, newly inaugurated president told the country "the orderly transfer of authority is called for in the constitution routinely takes place as it has for almost two centuries and few of us stop to think how unique we are. the four year ceremony we accept as normal is nothing less than a miracle." tell us, if you would, mr. speaker, why did you include president reagan's words in your public statement? >> mr. chairman, representative schiff, because i have a lot of admiration for ronald reagan. i had the opportunity of going through his home with one other person and walking through and i have a lot of admiration for him.

when he pointed out, i have lived in other countries for a period of time and have visited a few countries and during election times, the fact that we allow an election, support an election and stand behind election, even in the past when there have been serious questions about the election, and then move on without disturbance and with acceptance that we choose, we choose to follow the outcome of the will of the people. that will -- means a lot to me and i know it meant a lot to him, so i included that.

>> thank you, speaker bowers. and i want to look even more deeply at the fake elector scheme. every four years citizens from all over the united states go to the polls to elect our president. we are voting to send electors pledged to our preferred candidate to the electoral college. in december the electors in each state meet, cast their votes and send those votes to washington. there is only one legitimate slate of electors from each state. january 6th, they count the votes and that's the president. the next segment, hear how president trump and his campaign were directly involved in advancing and coordinating the plot to replace legitimate biden electors with fake electors not chosen by the voters. hear how the campaign convinced the fake electors to cast and

submit votes through fake certificates telling them their votes with only be used in the effect president trump won his legal challenges. yet when the president lost those legal challenges, courts rejected them as frivolous and without merit, the fake elector scheme continued. at this point president trump's own lawyers, so-called team normal, walked away rather than participate in the plan and his own white house counsel's office said the plan was not legally sound. let's play the following video produced by the select committee. >> my name is casey, i'm investigative counsel for the house select committee to investigate the january 6th attack on the capitol. november 18th, a lawyer working with the trump campaign wrote a memo arguing the trump campaign should organize its own electors in the swing states president trump had lost. the select committee received testimony those close to president trump began planning

to organize fake electors for trump in states that biden won in the weeks after the election. >> who do you remember being involved in those early discussions around the thanksgiving time, having alternate electors meet. >> mr. giuliani, several of his associates, mr. meadows, members of congress, although it's difficult to distinguish if the members i'm thinking of were involved thanksgiving or involved in december. >> at the president's direct request, the rnc assisted coordinating the effort. >> what did the president say when he called you? >> turned call over to mr. eastman who proceeded to talk about the importance of the rnc helping the campaign gather these contingent electors in case any of the legal challenges

that were ongoing changed the results of any of the states, i think more just helping them reach out but the, my understanding is the campaign did take the lead and we just were helping in that role. >> as president trump and his supporters continued to lose lawsuits, some campaign lawyers became convinced convening electors in states that trump lost was no longer appropriate. >> i just remember, either replied or called somebody saying unless we have litigation pending in these states, like i don't think this is appropriate, you know, this is not the right thing to do. i don't remember how i phrased it, but i got into a little bit of a back and forth and i think it was with ken chesboro, get after it.

i'm out. >> at that point i had josh finley email mr. chesebro to say this is your task. you are responsible for the electoral college issues moving forward. and this was my way of taking that responsibility to 0. >> the committee learned the white house counsel's office thought the plan was potentially illegal. >> did you hear the white house counsel's office say the plan to have alternate electors meet and cast votes for donald trump in states he will lost was not legally sound? >> yes, sir. >> and who was present for that meeting that you remember? >> it was in our office, mr. meadows, mr. giuliani, and mr. giuliani's associates. >> the select committee interviewed fake electors. >> we are kind of useful idiots,

a strong part of me really feels that it's just kind of as the road continued and those failure, failure, failure, that that got formulated is what do we have on the table, let's just do it. >> and now after what we have told you today about the select committee investigation about the conclusion of the professional lawyers on the campaign staff, about their unwillingness to participate in the convening of these electors, how does that contribute to your understanding of the issues. >> i'm angry, i'm angry, because i think, i think in a sense, you know, no one really cared if people would potentially put themselves in jeopardy. >> would you have not wanted to participate in this any further as well? >> i absolutely would not have, had i known the three main

lawyers for the campaign that i've spoken to in the past and were leading up were not on board. yeah. >> i was told that these would only count if a court ruled in our favor. so that would have been using our electors, it would have been using our electors in ways that we were not told about. and we wouldn't have supported. >> documents obtained by the collect committee indicate instructions were given to the electors in several states that they needed to cast their ballots incomplete secrecy. it's fake electors, they had no way to comply with state election laws like where they were supposed to meet. one group considered hiding overnight to ensure they can access the state capitol as required in michigan. >> did mr. norton say who he was working with at all on this effort to have electors meet?

>> he said he was working with the president's campaign. he told me that the michigan republican electors were planning to meet in the capitol and hide overnight so that they could fulfill the role of casting their vote in, per law in the michigan chambers and i told him in no uncertain terms said that was insane and inappropriate. >> in one state, fake electors asked for a promise the campaign would pay their legal fees if they got sued or charged with a crime. ultimately, electors did meet on december 14, 2020, arizona, georgia, michigan, pennsylvania, new mexico, nevada and wisconsin. at the request of the trump

camera, they signed documents falsely asserting they were the "duly elected electors from the state" and submitted them to the national archives and vice president pence. >> what some of the fake elector certificates look like as compared to the real ones. >> these ballots had no legal effect. in an email produced to the select committee, dr. eastman told a trump campaign representative it did not matter electors were not approved by the state authority. "the fact we have multiple slates of electors demonstrates the uncertainty of either, that should be enough." he urge the pence act boldly and be challenged. documents show the trump campaign took steps to ensure the physical copies of the fake elector electoral votes from two states were delivered to washington january 6th. text messages in wisconsin showed on january 4th, the trump campaign asked for someone to fly their state elector

documents to washington. a staffer from wisconsin senator ron johnson texted a staffer from vice president pence minutes before the beginning of the joint session. stated that senator johnson wished to hand deliver to the vice president the fake votes from michigan to wisconsin. the aide instructed them not to deliver the fake votes to the vice president. even though they were transmitted to congress and the executive branch, the vice president held firm his role was to count lawfully submitted electoral votes. >> joseph r biden, jr. of the state of delaware, 306 votes. donald trump from the state of florida has received 232 votes. >> what he did, when the joint session resumed on january 6th, after the attack on the capitol.

>> the plan was not legally sound. nevertheless, the trump campaign went forward with the scheme anyway. speaker bowers, were you aware fake electors met on december 14th and purported to cast votes for president trump? >> i was not. >> when you learned the elector had met and sent their votes to washington, what did you think? >> i thought of the book "the game that couldn't shoot straight" and i thought this is -- this is a tragic parody. >> mr. bowers, i understand as you flew from phoenix to washington yesterday you reflected upon some passages from a personal journal you were keeping in december 2020 when this was taking place. with your permission, would you

share one passage in particular with us? >> thank you very much. it is painful to have friends who have been such a help to me turn on me with such rankor. i may in the eyes of men not hold correct opinions or act according to their vision or convictions. but i do not take this current situation in a light manner, a fearful manner, or a vengeful manner. i do not want to be a cheater by winning. i will not play with laws i swore allegiance to. with any -- deep foundational desire to follow god's will as i

believe he led my conscience to embrace. how else will i ever approach him in the wilderness of life knowing that i ask of this guidance only to show myself a coward in defending the course he led me to take. >> mr. speaker, those are powerful words. i understand that taking the courageous positions that you did following the 2020 election and defense of the rule of law and protecting the voters of arizona resulted in you and your family being subjected to protest and terrible threats. can you tell us how this impacted you and your family? >> well, as others in the videos have mentioned, we received, my

secretaries would say, in excess of 20,000 emails and tens of thousands of voice mails and texts which saturated our offices and we were unable to work, at least communicate. but at home up 'til even recently it is the new pattern, or a pattern in our lives to worry what will happen on saturdays because we have various groups come by and they have had video panel trucks with videos of me proclaiming me to be a pedophile and a pervert and a corrupt politician and blaring loud speakers in my neighborhood and leaving literature, both on

my property, but arguing and threatening with neighbors, and with myself. i don't know if i should name groups, but there was one gentleman that had the three bars on his chest and he had a pistol and was threatening my neighbor, not with the pistol, but just vocally. when i saw the gun i knew i had to get close. and at the same time, on some of these we had a daughter who is gravely ill who was upset by what was happening outside and my wife, that is a valiant person, very, very strong,

quiet, very strong woman, so it was disturbing. it was disturbing. >> mr. speaker, i want to thank you for your service to the state of arizona and to the country. mr. chairman, at this point i think it would be appropriate to take a short recess. >> the chair request that those in the hearing room remain seated until the capitol police have escorted members and witnesses from the room. we'll have five minutes, a five-minute recess. >> all right, the january 6th committee taking a quick recess here after hearing lengthy testimony from rusty bowers, the speaker of the arizona house,

coming back after some analysis, i'm john roberts here in washington, good afternoon to you, anita. >> anita: good afternoon, john. as john mentioned, we have been watching this and hearing some compelling testimony. a lot of people know the story of what happened on january 6th but we are getting to hear it firsthand from people who were involved behind the scenes. >> john: and again, one of those people is rusty bowers, the speaker of the arizona house, who president trump and his aides asked to put forward to competing slate of electors, bowers said he could not do. bret baier, just before bowers began his prime minister, president trump launched an attack against him saying arizona speaker of the house rusty bowers is the latest rino to play along with the unselect committee. november 2020, bowers thanked me for getting him elected, he told me the election was rigged and i

won arizona. bowers disputed that saying that is not the conversation he had with him at all. and you can tell through bowers entire testimony he believed he was asked to do something illegal and said he was absolutely not going to do it despite the fact he was a big president trump supporter and wanted the president to win re-election. >> bret: exactly, good afternoon. i think this is compelling system from a republican who is the leader of the house of representatives in the state of arizona, who was being asked by trump officials, including rudy giuliani and jenna ellis and others, in a conversation he asked for specific evidence from rudy giuliani, rudy giuliani said there were thousands of dead people who voted in arizona, bowers wanted names. he said hundreds of thousands of illegals in arizona and he

wanted the evidence. he never got it. he said he had a conversation with giuliani, giuliani said we have a lot of theories but don't have evidence and yet he was asked to decertify the election something he said by his oath to the state of arizona and could not do. i know arizona well, we made the call on election night and a lot of tweets and emails i still get. so i hear about what speaker bowers is talking about, but the evidence was never, never materialized and what the january 6th committee is doing is laying out all that was happening behind the scenes before that day, january 6th, in an effort to overturn an election that the officials inside, including the white house counsel, and other trump campaign officials, were saying is not there. it's just not there. >> anita: and it is so interesting he is a long time republican, he's been speaker of the house since the early 1990s, he said he voted for trump, he

wanted trump to win the election but he kept saying there is no legal pathway to do what the president and his team were asking him to do, in fact he says he took a phone call from the white house in his car one day and that's how the conversation began. let's go ahead and play a clip from rusty bowers talking about how there just wasn't any evidence to do what the president was asking, this is number four. >> so as far as i was concerned, for someone to ask me in the, call it, there was no evidence being presented of any strength. evidence can be hearsay evidence, it's still evidence, but it's still hearsay, but strong judicial quality evidence, anything that would say to me you have a doubt, deny your oath. i will not do that.

>> anita: thoughts on that, bret? >> bret: yeah, it's powerful and i think we are going to hear the same from brad raffensperger, the secretary of the state of georgia who won the primary recently against a trump-supported candidate down in georgia and is likely going to win re-election in november. but he, too, was pressured, obviously in phone calls from the president that we will hear, i'm sure, and there are other officials as well. there was an all-out effort to put a full-court press on the state officials to find votes, to decertify, and to insert another set of electors. and it was very detailed in the effort and they are laying that out, of the january 6th committee is, and the very methodical way. with officials like speaker bowers who again was a trump supporter, an arizona republican

and is now being lambasted by threats and phone calls as we just heard. >> john: i expect we will hear some emotional testimony from gabe sterling as we saw so many times in the georgia statehouse how emotional he got in the wake of the election. bret, please stand by. we want to bring in martha maccallum, interesting point rusty bowers talked about a conversation with trump attorney john eastman, played a central role in all of this, where he said you are asking me to do something that's never been done in the history of the united states and i'm going to put my state through that, citing a lack of evidence, he said no, sir. and eastman said just do it, let the courts sort it out and then to this slate of electors that the president's aides were telling bowers to come up with, he referred to that as a tragic parody. so somebody a big supporter of the president, wanted him to win

re-election but had an idea what he was asked to do wa unconstitutional. >> they were pushed to do things with no evidence, and they are listening, saying we have thousands of people who voted who were not in this country legally, we have dead people who voted, and he, you know, give me the names and then we can cross check them, figure out if it actually happened. that would give them something they could go on. and that never materialized and you can hear obviously in his voice that this has been tough for him. one of the things that stands out to me, john, in terms of the political landscape here, is that a, there is no opposition questioning, and i think most of these people would hold up quite well under it, probably. but i think that it would lend a little bit more credibility to

it to have someone in that room say yes, but what about this, and what about that. however, we are not getting that in this current environment here. the other thing is that, you know, you hear a lot of talk of these individuals called rino, republicans in name only, and that's a very divisive word, obviously, for republicans, and it's clear there is an effort that is being played out here, quite obviously, that divides republicans. and that is something that will benefit democrats, or they hope will benefit them as they move forward through the midterms and then the presidentials. every time i look at these hearings i think there is another campaign ad, right. there is another moment where this is all going to be turned around, not to say that it's not truthful, but it will be extremely useful in coming campaigns, especially in the presidential, when you look back in terms of the mike pence part of all this. so, it is a political

discussion. it is very compelling and the lack of evidence is the huge stunning clear moment here where these people are saying look, i supported you, please give me something to work with and it simply doesn't materialize. >> anita: martha, one thing i thought was interesting, we are hearing from a number of people in the videos and from rusty bowers also about the pressure that was on these people to do what the president wanted him do, and the protestors outside, and the phone calls, and the fear that these people had. and there was a video they showed of pennsylvania state representative saying he was worried, he was at home putting his kids to bed, people were outside, calling, leaving threatening messages and the committee wants people to be outraged about this. it is outrageous, but isn't that what's going on now outside the homes of the supreme court justices and like you said, if

there was another side in the hearing here it might be a little more valid. >> these a great point, anita, and i'm sure the kavanaugh family can relate to what the people talk about going through, and you have this assembly of democrats and two republicans who are on this panel who are very like mind about this entire chapter in our country's history, which was a difficult one, to be sure. but no doubt the kavanaugh family, alito family and others would love to hear some of these same individuals stand up to say and say we remember what happened to these people who would not tow the line with the president and rudy giuliani and what they went through and sympathetic to what is happening now with the supreme court justices with the monumental decision, and we have not heard from the president on this either. so i think there are obviously a lot of americans who watch this and they have that spot, they are wondering where the balance is in terms of these kinds of

protests and harassment and behavior that we see on both sides and we need to call it out for what it is clearly on both sides as wrong. >> john: no question about that. martha, thank you so much, appreciate it. now let's bring in our legal panel, andy mccarthy and jonathan turley, raffensperger and sterling have sat down but are not yet ready to gavel back in. jonathan, pick up on the point that anita and martha were making. if we saw a more balanced composition to this committee, if speaker mccarthy had been able to get some of of the mike pence from his side of the aisle seated that he wanted seated, that nancy pelosi rejected, how would the tone and tenor of these hearings be different than what we are seeing? >> well, i think that they were absolutely right about how having opposing side, not on the riot itself or the elections,

but just having questioning from the other side of the aisle would have added greater credibility and i don't think it would have undermind this powerful testimony. these are respected republicans like the speaker of the arizona house. and some of this was extraordinarily compelling, you know. as we watched the protests outside of the homes of justices, it is important to remember that this has come from both the left and the right, where people forget there are human beings in the houses and i thought the most compelling testimony was when the speaker was talking about what it was like to be in that house with these people outside. that was really authentic and it was really compelling, and i think people need to really wonder about what they're doing when they treat these figures like they are not human beings. >> anita: andy, question to you. seems as though the goal is to gather this evidence and perhaps present it to the department of

justice to see if there is a crime here, that president trump committed. and in his opening statement, representative adam schiff named a crime. he said what the president did was conspiracy to defraud the united states. is that the crime they are looking to charge him with? >> no, i think the most plausible crime is obstruction of congress. relying heavily on the opinion of a federal district judge in california, david carter, a clinton appointee who once ran for public office as a democrat, a lot of bombastic rhetoric in that opinion, not surprising they are relying on it. what i would just say is that if you had a different perspective being presented here, i don't think that would be very helpful to president trump, per se, because the evidence pretty clearly shows his unfitness that he even suggests he may be guilty of a crime, maybe, maybe not, argument on both sides, but

i would highlight the plausible gap, a scheme that attacked every tier of government versus how likely it was to succeed. committee is showing our presidential elections is so diffuse, spread out between the federal and state governments that there was no way that he could have pulled this off ever. >> john: what do you say to that, jonathan, the fact it is r diffuse and relies on legislatures and slates of electors, means that somebody in the halls of power in washington could not pull enough strings to flip the results. >> well, i agree with andy, particularly about the claim of the crime now being this effort to defraud. there is a lot of talk about proving crimes by the members, and those elements have not been shown. you even have professor larry trive going on air saying this

proves there was an attempt to murder vice president pence by president trump, and that type of just out of this world analysis gets amplified in this environment but it's completely nonsense. so if they are going to prove crimes, they need to be more concrete, show us the elements and i agree with andy, i don't see that crime as being particularly compelling. >> john: jonathan turley, andy mccarthy, thank you very much. we are going to hear from brad raffensperger and gabriel sterling, two georgia officials. let's go back to the hearing. >> that the former president had a particular obsession with georgia. here is the president on the afternoon of january 6th after his own attorney general warned him that the claims you are about to hear are patently false. >> should find those votes. they should absolutely find that. just over 11,000 votes or so,

they defrauded us out of a win in georgia. and we are not going to forget it. >> so the state of georgia is where we will turn our attention to next. i want to emphasize that our investigation into these issues is still ongoing. as i stated in our last hearing, if you have relevant information or documentary evidence to share with the select committee, we welcome your cooperation. but we will share some of our findings with you today. secretary raffensperger, thank you for being here today. you've been a public servant in georgia since 2015, serving first as a member of the georgia house of representatives, and then since january 2019 as georgia's secretary of state. as a self-described conservative republican, is it fair to say

that you wanted president trump to win the 2020 election? >> yes, it is. >> secretary, many witnesses have told the select committee that election day, november 3, 2020, was a largely uneventful day in their own states. in spite of the challenges of conducting an election during a pandemic, you wrote in "the washington post" that the election was "successful." tell us, what was your impression of how election day had proceeded in georgia? >> on election day in november, our election went remarkably smooth. in fact, we meet at the gema headquarters, meeting location, but we were following wait times in line and the afternoon, average wait time was three minutes statewide that we were recording for various precincts.

actually got down to two minutes. and at the end of the day we felt we had a successful election from the standpoint of the administration and the operation of the election. >> thank you. the chair recognizes gentleman from california, mr. schiff. >> thank you. >> did joe biden win in georgia and by what margin? >> proceed carried the state of georgia by approximately 12,000 votes. >> and mr. secretary, as i understand it your office took several steps to ensure the accuracy of the vote count in georgia. reviewing the vote count in at least three different ways. these steps included a machine recount, forensic audit, and a full hand recount of every one of the 5 million ballots cast. did these efforts, including a recount of literally every ballot in the state of georgia, confirm the result? >> yes, they did. counted the ballots the first tabulation would be scanned, then when we did our 100% hand

audit of the entire all 5 million ballots in the state of georgia, cast in place, absentee ballots, remarkably close to the first count and upon the election being certified, president trump, within a half percent could ask for a recount and we recounted them again through the scanners, and got remarkably the same counts. three counts, all remarkably close, showed president trump did come up short. >> nevertheless as you will see, the president and his allies began making numerous false allegations of voter fraud. false allegations that you and mr. sterling among others had to address. mr. sterling, thank you also for being here today. following the 2020 election, in addition to your normal duties, i understand that you became a spokesperson to try to combat disinformation about the election and the danger it was creating for elections officials among others. december 1st press conference you addressed some of your

remarks directly to president trump. let's take a look at what you said that day. >> mr. president, it looks like you likely lost the state of georgia. we are investigating, there's always a possibility, i get it, you have the right to go through the courts. what you don't have the ability to did and step up and say this, stop inspiring people to acts of violence. someone is going to get hurt, shot, someone is going to get killed and it's not right. i -- it's not right. >> mr. sterling, what prompted you to make these remarks? >> mr. schiff, we had a previously scheduled press conference in the habit of doing to be as transparent about the counts and the election going on. a little after lunch that day at which time i received a call from the project manager from

dominion voting systems who was oddly audibly shaken. she's not the kind of person that would be that way, masters in m.i.t., graduate of the naval academy and on the ball and unflapable and she informed me about a young contractor they had had been receiving threats from a video that had been posted by some qanon supporters. and at that point -- it was around us all the time, so i did not take note of it more than adding to the pile of other stuff we were having to deal with. and i did pull up twitter, and i scrolled through it. and i saw the young man's name, it was a particular tweet that for lack of a better word was the straw that broke the camel's back. had a young man's name, very unique name, i believe a first generation american and had his name, you committed treason, may god have mercy on your soul, with a slowly twisting gift of a noose and for lack of a better

word i lost it. i just got irate. my boss was with me at the time, deputy secretary jordan fuch, and she could tell i was angry. i tend to turn red from here up when that happens and she called secretary raffensperger to say we are seeing these kinds of threats and gabe thinks we need to say something about it. the secretary said yes and that prompted me to do what i did. i lost my temper, but it seemed necessary at the time because it was just getting worse and i could not tell you why that particular one was the one that put me over the edge but it did. >> after you made this plea to the president, did donald trump urge his supporters to avoid the use of violence? >> not to my knowledge. >> now as we know, the president was aware of your speech because he tweeted about it later that day. let's take a look at what the president said. in the tweet, donald trump claims that there was "massive

voter fraud in georgia" mr. sterling, that was just plain false, wasn't it? >> yes, sir. >> nevertheless, the very next day on december 2nd, president trump released a lengthy video with fraud in georgia. take a look what he said this time. >> they found thousands and thousands of votes that were out of whack. all against me. >> in fact, the day after donald trump released that video, so now we are talking just two days after the emotional warning that you gave that someone is going to get killed, representatives of president trump appeared in georgia, including rudy giuliani, and launched a new conspiracy theory that would take on a life of its own and threaten the lives of several innocent election workers. this story falsely alleges that some time during election night election workers at the state farm arena in atlanta, georgia, kicked out poll observers.

after they left, the story goes, the workers pulled so-called suitcases of ballots from under a table and ran those ballots through counting machines multiple times. completely without evidence, president trump and his allies claimed that these suitcases contained as many as 18,000 ballots all for joe biden. none of this was true. rudy giuliani appeared before the georgia state senate and played a surveillance video from state farm arena falsely claiming that it showed this conspiracy taking place. here is a sample of what mr. giuliani had to say during that hearing. >> and when you look at what you saw on the video, which to me was a smoking gun, powerful smoking gun, don't have to be a genius to figure out what happened. i don't have to be a genius to figure out those votes are not legitimate votes. you don't put legitimate votes under a table.

wait until you throw the opposition out and in the middle of the night count them, we would have to be fools to think that. >> president trump's campaign amplified rudy giuliani's false testimony in a tweet pushing out the video footage. giuliani likewise pushed out his testimony on social media. as you can see in this tweet, mr. rudy giuliani wrote "now beyond doubt" that fulton county democrats had stolen the election. we will hear from one of the election workers about the affect the lies had on her and on her family. mr. sterling, did the investigators in your office review the entire surveillance tape from the state farm arena on election night? >> they actually reviewed approximately 48 hours, going over the time period where action was taking place at the counting center at state farm arena. >> and what did the tape actually show? >> depending on which time you want to start.

as mentioned the conspiracy theory took on a life of its own, where they conflated a watermain break that was not a watermain break and throwing somebody observers out, what it showed was normal processing. one thing very frustrating the so-called suitcases of ballots from under the table. if you watch the entirety of the video, you saw that these were election workers who were under the impression they were going to get to go home around 10, 10:30. people are putting on their coats, putting ballots that are prepared to be scanned into ballot carriers that are then sealed with tamper proof seals so they are not messed with. and it's an interesting thing, because you watch all -- four screens of the video. you can see the election monitors in the corner with the press as they are taking the

ballot carriers and under the table. and on the actual table, outside from the camera angle you could not see it originally and goes under the no good deed goes unpunsished, we were today, and we were told that it looked like they were shutting down the fulton county counting. the secretary expressed some displeasure at that, we wanted everybody to keep counting to get to the results and know it was happening. our elections director called their elections director at another location because this was election day. two different places where things were being done by the fulton county office so he called the elections director for fulton called ralph jones at the state farm arena, and said what are you doing, go ahead and stay. you see him take the phone call as people are getting ready to leave, you can tell for 15, 20 seconds he does not want to tell the people they have to stay. he walks over, thinks about it for a second, he comes back to

the corner of a desk and slumps his shoulders and said ok, y'all, we have to keep on counting, take the coats off and the ballots out and secondary thing on there, people are counting ballots, a bash will go through, they will take them off and run that through again. what happens there, standard operating procedure, if there is a miss scan, misalignment, these are high capacity scanners so 3 or 4 will go through after a miss scan, delete that batch and through again. the hand tally as the secretary pointed out, we showed if there were multiple ballots scanned the counts would have been higher than the ballots themselves. and the hand tally, got us to a .0153% and.0999% on the margin, essentially dead on

accurate. hand tally, between 1 and 2%, but because we use ballot marking devices it's clear what the voter intended made it easier to conduct the hand count and showed none of that was true. >> now i understand can that when you reviewed the tapes and did the analysis, it just proved the conspiracy theory. but you still had to take a lot of steps to try to make sure the public knew the truth about the allegations and you did frequent briefings for the press. let's take a look at one of those press briefings, mr. sterling, you held on december 7th, to make the point that you just did today. >> move on to what i'm going to call disinformation monday. out of the gate. many of you saw the video from state farm arena, i spent hours with our post certified investigators, justin grave from wsb, spent hours with us going over the video to explain to people what you saw, the secret

suitcase with magic ballots were actually ballots packed into the absentee ballot carriers by the workers in plain view of the monitors and the press. and what's really frustrating is the president's attorneys had this same video tape. they saw the exact same thing the rest of us could see and they chose to mislead state senators and the public about what was on the video. i'm quite sure it will not characterize the video if they try to enter it into evidence, it can lead to sanctions, they knew it was untrue and they continue to do things like this. >> mr. sterling, despite the efforts to combat misinformation, you are unable to match the reach of president trump's platform and social media megaphone spreading false conspiracy theories. what was it like to compete with the president who had the biggest bully pulpit in the

world to push out these false claims? >> for lack of a better word, it was frustrating. but often times i felt our information was getting out, that there was a reticense people to believe it, the president of the united states who many looked up to was telling them it was not true, and like a shovel trying to empty the ocean and yes it was frustrating. i even have family members who i had to argue with about some of these things and i would show them things and problem you have is you get into people's hearts. i remember this one specific attorney that we know that we showed and walked him through this wasn't true, ok, i get that, this wasn't true, 5 or 6 things but at the end he goes i know in my heart they cheated. that's, and so once you get past

the heart, the facts don't matter as much, and our job from our point of view, get the facts out, tell the truth, follow the constitution, follow the law and defend the institutions and the institutions held. >> let's take a look at what you were competing with. this is the former president speaking in georgia on december 5th. >> fraud is overwhelming and again, i'm going to ask you to look up at that very, very powerful and very expensive screen. >> hidden cases of possible ballots were rolled out from under a table. four people under a cloud of suspicion. >> so if you just take the crime of what those democrat workers were doing, and by the way, there was no watermain break, you know, there was no watermain break. that's ten times more than i need to win this state. ten times more. it's ten times, maybe more than

that, but it's ten times more because we lost by a very close number. >> this committee's hearing last monday we heard from senior federal law enforcement officials from the senior most federal law enforcement official in atlanta at the time, u.s. attorney for the northern district, bjay pac and bill barr. here is u.s. attorney pac. >> i told them we looked into it, done several things including interviewing the witnesses. i listened to the tapes and reviewed the video tapes myself and that there was nothing there. giuliani was wrong in representing that this was a suitcase full of ballots. >> and what attorney general bill barr had to say about the same allegations. >> took a hard look at this

ourselves and based on our review of it, including the interviews of the key witnesses, the fulton county allegations were -- had no merit. >> also have testimony from senior department of justice officials establishing that they specifically told president trump these allegations had been thoroughly investigated and were completely without merit. here is acting attorney deputy attorney general richard donahue, with a phone conversation he told president trump the allegations were false. >> kept fixating on the suitcase rolled out from under the table, and i said no, sir, there is no suitcase. watch the video over and over. there is no suitcase. there is a wheeled bin where they kept --

>> where they carried the ballots. no matter how many times senior department of justice officials, including his own attorney general told the president these allegations were not true, president trump kept promoting lies and putting pressure on state officials to accept them. on january 2nd, president had the lengthy telephone conversation with secretary raffensperger. prior to the president's call i want to share a bit of important context. first, the white house, including the former president's chief of staff, mark meadows, repeatedly called or texted the secretary's office some 18 times in order to set up this call. they were quite persistent. second, chief of staff mark meadows took the extraordinary step showing up with a signature audit site in georgia where he met with secretary raffensperger's chief investigators francis watson who was supervising the audit process. behind me is the photograph from that visit. third, the day after meadows'

georgia visit set up a call between president trump and francis watson. on the called between president trump and francis watson, the former president continued to push the false claim that he had won the state of georgia. let's listen to that part of the conversation. >> just the most important job in the country right now. if we win georgia, first of all, if we win -- they are not going to win, they are down. because the people of georgia are so angry at what happened to me, they know i won, by hundreds of thousands of votes, it was not close. >> the next clip, told the state law enforcement official she would be praised if she found the right answer. >> when the right answer comes out you'll be praised. i mean, i don't know why they

made it so hard. there will be praise, people will say great because that's what it's about the ability to make it right. because everyone knows it's wrong. there's just no way. >> mr. raffensperger, i know you were not on this call but that you have listened to it. president trump did not win by hundreds of thousands of votes in georgia, did he? >> no, he did not. i've been travelling through the state of georgia for a year now, and simply put, in a nutshell, what happened in fall of 2020 is that 28,000 georgians skipped the presidential race and voted down ballot in other races, and the republican congressman got 33,000 more votes than president trump and that's why president trump came up short. >> thank you, mr. secretary. the president on this call doesn't stop here. let's listen to another part of the conversation between president trump and ms. watson.

>> whatever you do, francis, it's a great thing, important for the country, you know it's so important. and i very much appreciate it. >> whatever you can do, francis. this is the president of the united states calling an investigator looking into the election which he is a candidate and asking her to do whatever you can do. mr. secretary, he placed this call to your chief investigate september 23, 2020. text messages saying mark meadows wanted to send investigators in her office a [bleep] load of potus stuff, coin, autographed maga hats, etc. the white house staff intervened to make sure that did not happen. it was clear at the time of the call the former president had his sights set on january 6th. listen to this portion he told

watson about a very important date. >> you think i'll be working after christmas, keeping going? you know, we have the date of the 6th, which is a very important date. >> where georgia's electoral votes would be counted for joe biden. a little over a week after this call to francis watson, the president was able to speak to you secretary raffensperger. bear in minds as we discuss this call today, by this point in time, early january, election in georgia will be certified. and the president had been told repeatedly by his own top justice department officials that the claims he was about to make to you about massive fraud in georgia were completely false. mr. secretary, the call between you and the president lasted 67 minutes, over an hour. we obviously cannot listen to the entire recording here today, although it is available on the select committee's website.

we'll listen to selected excerpts now to get your insights. let's begin with the president raising the thoroughly debunked allegations of suitcases of ballots. >> official voter box, what looked to be suitcases or trunks, suitcases, but they weren't in voter boxes. the minimum number it could be, because we watched it and they watched it certified, in slow motion, instant replay, if you can believe it, but had slow motion and magnified many times over. minimum was 18,000 ballots, all for biden. >> these are the allegations the department of justice, attorney general, the georgia bureau of investigation and your office have all said were false, is that right? >> correct. even more importantly, when bjay

pac resigned, president trump appointed bobby christine, and christine looked at that and he found nothing and he dismissed that case early on. >> thank you, mr. secretary. the president references suitcases or trunks. mr. sterling, were the objects seen in those videos suitcases or trunks or just the ordinary containers used by election workers? >> standard ballot carriers that allow for seals to be put on them so they are tamper proof. >> and finally, the president claims a minimum of 18,000 ballots, somehow smuggled in all for biden. i take it, gentlemen, that was also categorically false. >>, a, no physical way he could know who the ballots were for, and secondarily, fulton county will be an issue when it comes to elections so they had a very difficult time during the primary in large part because of covid. so we had put them under a consent decree the secretary

negotiated where we had a monitor on-site and his name is carter jones, and he took a notation, he had gone from state farm to the english street warehouse to look at election activities. before he left the state farm arena he noted how many ballots had been counted on each one of the machines. and when he came back after we found out they were working again, he took note again when they closed and i believe the final number was around 8900 total ballots were scanned from the time he left to 12:30, 1:00 in the morning, so way below 18,000. >> let's play the next clip. >> heard it was close, i said there's no way. but they dropped a lot of votes in there late at night, you know that, brad. >> mr. secretary, did somebody drop a lot of votes there late at night? >> no. i believe that the president was referring to some of the counties when they would upload, but the ballots had all been accepted and accepted by state law by 7:00 p.m. so there were no additional

ballots accepted after 7:00 p.m. >> let's play the next clip which the president makes claims about so-called dead voters. >> the other thing, dead people, so dead people voted and i think the number is in the -- close to 5,000 people, and they went to obituaries, they went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number and a minimum is close to about 5,000 voters. >> secretary, did your office investigate whether those allegations were accurate? did 5,000 dead people in georgia vote? >> no, it's not accurate. actually in their lawsuits they alleges 10,315 dead people. we found two dead people when i wrote my letter to congress that dated january 6th, and subsequent to that, that's a total of four, not 10,000, not

5,000. >> let's play the next clip. >> and there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, that you've recalculated. because 2,236 absentee ballots, exact numbers done by accounting firms, law firms, etc. and even if you cut them in half, cut them in half and cut them in half again, it's more votes than we need. >> mr. secretary, is there any way that you could have lawfully changed the result in the state of georgia and somehow explained it away as a recalculation? >> no, the numbers are the numbers. numbers don't lie. we had many allegations and we investigated every single one of them. i challenged my team, did we miss anything, they said there was over 66,000 underaged voters we found that there was actually 0. you can register to vote in georgia when you are 17.5, you have to be 18 by election day. checked that out, every single

voter. said 2,423 nonregistered voters, there were zeros. 2,056 felons, we identified less than 74, or less, every single allegation we checked. ran down the rabbit trail to make sure that our numbers were accurate. >> so there's no way you could have recalculated except by fudging the numbers. >> the numbers were the numbers and we could not recalculate because we made sure we had checked every single allegation. investigations, nearly 300 from the 2020 election. >> mr. secretary, you tried to push back when the president made these unsupported claims whether they were about suitcases of ballots, or that biden votes were counted three times. let's play the next clip. >> they did not put that, we did an audit of that and proved that they were not scanned three

times. we'll send you the link. >> i don't care about >> you told the president you would send him a link from wsb, which is a local television station that has an unedited video from the state farm arena. the president wasn't interested in that. he said he had a better link. mr. secretary, at the time that you were on the call with the president as we have shown the fbi and the georgia bureau of investigation have proven these claims to be nonsense. you told him about these investigations on the phone. let's listen to what president trump had to say about the state and federal law enforcement officers who investigated these false claims. >> there's no way -- they're incompetent. they're either dishonest or incompetence. there's no way. look, there's no way. >> the president didn't stop

insinuating that law enforcement officers were either dishonest or incompetent. he went on to suggest that you could be subject for criminal liability for your role in the matter. before i play that portion, i'd like to so you something that the president retweeted a couple weeks before your call with him. here's the president retweeting a post from one of his allies. a lawyer that was later sanctioned by a judge in michigan for making false claims of election fraud. let's take a look at that tweet. the tweet read "president trump at real donald trump is a genuinely good man. he does not really like to fire people. i bet he dislikes putting people in jail especially "republicans." he gave brian kemp georgia every chance to get it right. they refused. they will soon be going to jail." so on your call, this was not the first time that the

president was suggesting you might be criminally liable. with that let's listen to this portion of the call. >> i think you're going to find that they're threading ballots. they have to get rid of the ballots. they're unsigned. they're corrupt. they're brand new and they don't have seals. there's a whole thing with the ballots. the ballots are corrupt, which is totally illegal. it's more illegal for you than it is for them. because you know what they did and you're not reporting it. that is a criminal offense. you know, you can't let that happen. that is a big risk to you and to ryan. your lawyer. that is a big risk. >> secretary raffensperger, after making a false claim, the president suggested that you may be committing a crime by not going along with his claims of election fraud. after suggesting that you might have criminal exposure, president trump makes his most

explicit ask of the call. let's play a part of that conversation. >> so look, all i want to do is this: i want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. we won the state. >> secretary, was the president here asking you for exactly what he wanted? one more vote than his opponent? >> what i knew is that we didn't have any votes to find. we continued to look. we investigated like i shared the numbers with you. there were no votes to find. it was an accurate count that had been certified. as our general counsel said, there was no shredding of ballots. >> mr. secretary, after making this request, the president goes back to the danger of having you deny these allegations of fraud. let's listen to that part of the clip.