♪ ♪ howard: never seen anything remotely like it, the media trying to knock president biden out of the running for a second term. it feels like a -- campaign. in fact, if the media were a political organization, as some of their critics believe, we'd say they're carpet bombing joe biden, trying to damage him to the point where he can't run again. by the way, the media are also trying to disqualify donald trump, far less surprising but still happening. the press does not want a rematch. remember how everyone thought

the media would go easy on biden because, basically, he's not trump? that's out the window. look at sunday's new york times. biden's age is a big problem. polls show many americans consider mr. biden too old, and some democratic strategists do not think he should run again. monday's new york times, most democrats don't want biden to run again in 2024. that figure, 64%. tuesday, a times columnist pleads with biden not to run, and then there's the former president. tuesday's times, half of gop voters to leave trump behind, poll finds, and a significant number vowing to abandon him if he wins the nomination. trump's response, this is good, the failing new york times is down 40% year to date because if they are fake news. their reporters are dishonest. they hate our country. "the new york times" is truly the enemy of the people. now, of course the media would be committing hall practice if they didn't report on -- malpractice if they didn't report on biden's awful poll numbers or whether the hill

hearings have hurt trump. but trying to muscle candidates out of the presidential race and more than two years early, if they're damaged, they think they can't win, maybe they'll decide against running. but too many in the news media are acting like mob bosses and are sacrificing what remains of their credibility. i'm howard kurtz, and this is "mediabuzz." ♪ ♪ howard: ahead, ari fleischer with the details and devastating look at media bias and snobbery. there's been plenty of television coverage of the concerted media campaign against joe biden and donald trump with numerous segments quoting "the new york times." >> i guess the bottom line is it's not biden -- if not biden, then who? >> the future of the democrat party is not going to be biden, and i doubt that he'll be running. >> influential liberal columnist

michelle goldberg of "the new york times" is the latest person begging biden not to run are. she's citing his age. >> joe biden's many trouble -- in trouble. i think that's pretty obvious. >> the biden presidency is failing so much, so past that even the media mob, they're being forced to reckon with the reality that they helped create concern. >> joe biden's approval rating does not mean that america wants donald trump. >> donald trump is a uniquely unpopular figure in american life. at some point you would hi republicans are going to realize that. howard: joining us now to analyze the coverage, ben domenech, editor at large at the spectator, and in los angeles, leslie marshall, both fox news contributors. ben, does this feel to you like a political campaign by the media? and isn't it bizarre that liberal news organizations and pundits are trying to push biden out two years early? >> that's the -- the earliness is the bizarre part. howard: yeah. >> you would have thought, you know, as the presidential

election approached if joe biden was, you know, performing as horribly as he's been performing recently that there would be an effort on the part of the media to say, hey, look, you know, take the gold watch, step aside. we've got some new blood coming in, new people in the wings -- howard: people younger than 79. >> exactly. and instead you have this coming much earlier, i think, certainly than i expected, than a lot of people expected, and it's because he's performed so terribly. look, the fact is we've had people in the office of the presidency who has been flawed leaders. we've seen it, frankly, in donald trump, bill clinton and others where the popularity of their policies made upper for their own personal flaws. in biden you don't have that. you do not have a strong leader, you do not have someone whose policies are matching the moment, and because of that the media is forced into a position where they can't lie anymore. they have to be honest about how unpopular he is, and even this to a agree, i think -- to a degree, i think, is aligning the

true depth of his unpopularity. howard: let me get to let'sly. it's absolutely news when democrats don't want joe biden to run for re-election as he insists he will or that he has a 33% approval rating, on and on. but does this feel like a media crusade? if he did run, he'd beat trump by 3 points which is actually a statistical tie. [laughter] >> look, i think this is kind of a war on old white guys, you know? whether it's left or right, you know? ageism, if you will. [laughter] from where i sit, howie, i have seen the media be negative about joe biden from day one. if i really have. and if you look at all of the social media, there were a lot of criticism of cnn and msnbc and other outlets that are deemed liberal. maybe they can't be called liberal anymore. as somebody who opines for a living but used to report news when i was a journalist back in

the day, the media shouldn't be having a campaign for or against any candidate. they should be reporting the facts, and the facts are, like you said, the numbers in this new york times poll are worrisome for those who want biden or for those who want trump. and at the end of the day, donald trump and joe biden aren't going to do what the polls tell them to do. they're going to do what they want to do. howard: war on white guys. i guess nobody defends if old white guys these days. so, ben, some media conservatives say the press protected him but, of course, it was a covid campaign where he could just kind of do it from his basement. what accounts for the vehemence with which the the media, whether you think this is an orchestrated campaign or not, is have turned on the president they hailed in 2020 because he was their ticket for getting trump out of the white house in. >> look, i think a lot of the media put themselves out there making the argument that he was a return to normalcy, stability

the, that he would tamp down on the culture wars, etc. but i think that they've been disappointed to see that that's just not been the case. it's become harder and harder to defend the biden administration if you are someone who just leans a little bit left of center and you had the idea that, you know, finally we were going to get the cults back in charge and then you face the circumstance where this white house really seems incapable of handling anything when it comes to the economy, when it comes to these culture war issues, when it comes to foreign policy and the like. you have a president who really has disappointed his media backers, and for all those people who said he's going to intimidate those around the world who are opposed to us, you know, he really hasn't lived up to that -- howard: do you think it's policy driven or do you think it's because the expectation is that he shouldn't be the nominee because he can't win? >> yeah, i think it's both of those things. the policy issues in the moment are disappointing them, and the political side of this, they're worried he'll lose. they are actually worried that he's so bad that he could lose

to donald trump. howard: leslie, an abc reporter asked the president about the poll story, and i want to take a look at what he said. >> mr. president, what's your message to democrats who don't want you to run again? >> they want me to run. >> two-thirds said -- >> read the polls. read the polls, jack. polls show that 92% of democrats, if i ran, would vote for me. howard: the reporter's name isn't jack, by way. [laughter] leslie, it's true that the polls, if biden ran, 92% of democrats would vote for him, presumably against trump or someone else. but he's saying they want me to run. that's' exactly the opposite of what that poll shows, the reporter was right. >> well, was the reporter right, is the poll right, is the poll one poll? we say that because the week before what we saw for both democrats and are republicans is at the end of the day, as we saw

with donald trump, there are those in that party that held their nose and vote for him even though they didn't want him. and i think it would be the same this time around, joe biden with democrats, and i think the same for donald trump if donald trump and not desantis is at the top of the republican ticket. i think republicans would do the same thing. we love to jump on one poll, you know, but it is, again, with one poll. and are are there people out there who don't want him to run or fearful they'll lose for both biden on the left, trump on the right? that, certainly, is a reality. howard: well, there are several polls in the case of biden with different numbers among democrats. the press is also going after donald trump fueled by the same poll. he can't win, the hill hearings have hurt him, ron desantis is gaining support. it's t hardly shocking. but -- it's hardly shocking. but trump told new york magazine he's made the decision, and it's just a question when he announces.

you can guess what the decision is. washington post citing unnamed advisers saying he'll probably announce in september. of course, that would change the nature of the midterms. so it looks like this media campaign ain't working. >> no, it certainly isn't and, in fact, i think it's kind of putting chum in the water, sort of daring him to announce earlier. but i do think a media-driven announcement would be a mistake on his part. if you really are the powerful force here, if you really are the t-rex, the king of the jungle, then i think you can actually wait. you don't need to come out here early. and the fact is if he is baited into an early announcement, i actually think that gives people more time to familiarize themselves with the alternatives, more time to come around to the idea that ron desantis may be the man of the moment. howard: just briefly, you tweetedded trump will run, and he's going to lose. >> yes, yes, i did. [laughter] because that's what i think. i think he is going to run, and

i think he's going to lose. not to tag along with leslie's idea of being against old white guys, i think people are tired of a certain generation that we've had of leadership in america that has held reins of power for so long. we'ved had three presidents who come from the same year. think about the bizarre nature of that. howard: yeah. >> and i think that we really is have reached a point in america where people are ready to move on to a new generation of leadership, people who aren't so tied to the past and tied to nostalgia and want, instead, to move forward into the future and not be tied to that. howard: well, it may be that donald trump is the only person who joe biden can beat and joe biden is the only person donald trump can beat. leslie, if the country concludes etc. doesn't want a president who's 82 at the beginning of his second term, he'll probably figure that out on his own. if enough republicans want to move on from trump and others are gaining traction, he may

figure that out. why do we need this media pile-on? what does it accomplish? >> oh, so much here. ben, i actually agree with your tweet. i know we don't agree much, let's tally this. this is twice in a year. [laughter] i do agree he'll run, i do agree he'll lose. i do think biden, especially because he's a company guy -- he's a democrat, a politician, a lifelong democrat and politician with his fellow democrats and they all have a come to jesus moment, if you will, and say, look, you know, this isn't going to happen, it's best for the party, he is somebody, i believe, would step aside if he feels in agreement with the party and the politicians that are -- howard: right. >> -- sitting at that table. i don't feel that's the same for donald trump -- hu. howard: well, because donald trump engineered a hostile takeover of the gop in 2016. [laughter] let me get a break here. when we come back, joe biden taking media flak for meeting the saudi crown prince despite an atrocious human rights record x. later, ari fleischer's

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from jamal khashoggi's wife who said after this visit, the blood of mbs' next victim is on your hands. what do you say to mrs. khashoggi? >> >> i'm sorry she feels that way. i was straight toward back then, i was straight a forward today. >> how can you be sure that another murder like jamal khashoggi -- >> god love you, what a silly question. how could i possibly be sure of any of that? howard: the president didn't like that question. the questions were from reuters, nbc and so forth. fist bump seen around the world, okay? last thing joe biden wanted was a picture of him shaking hands, he came up with this covid cover story except he shook hands with foreign leaders, and hen he together and shook hands with leaders in israel, so nobody was guying -- buying it. >> this was ridiculous. he shouldn't have ever tried to became the situation, and frankly, i think the fist bump looks worse.

it looks sort of casual and unserious. i think one of the things that you have to deal with as president of the united states is difficult meetings with people who you have major issues with -- howard: right. >> -- you have serious problems with. but the problem, i think, here was that the president set up an impossible situation for himself from the get go on campaign trail, in the debates saying that he wanted to make saudi arabia a pariah. we can't afford to do that from a policy perspective, and so it's not -- it was never responsible to go in that direction. to. howard: right. >> what i will say is this: any president would have to have a relationship with saudi arabia. it does not make the khashoggi killing any less horrible and awful as an act for any leader to undertake. howard: leslie, the no handshake thing wasn't even good, we ended up with the fist bump, and publisher fred ryan of "the washington post" where khashoggi was a contributing opinion writer called it shameful and projecting a level of intimacy with mohamed bin salman.

>> i, i would agree with the last comment that ben just made. world leaders, whether democrats or republicans in the united states, have to meet with people that are at the helm of nations that have atrocious human rights violationings; north korea, russia, china are examples in addition to saudi arabia. we also have them as trading partners. with we knee -- we need them for some things, when you go -- howard: i'm not disputing that, but do you think the media was off a base then? everybody should just say, well, this is politics in the global community? >> yes, i do. after the meeting the foreign minister of saudi arabia said they should really, you know, focus on content of the meeting and that this was actually a win for joe biden as opposed to the first bump. look, he said he wasn't going to shake his hand, he did something else. you have to do something. he's a prince, you're a guest in his house.

i've interview horrendous people, grand wizards of the kkk, i treat them the same and with respect as a guest on my show. that's part of diplomacy, and that has happened since adam and eve, and it will continue long after we're gone. this does not take away from the horrendousness. the president said that he did not believe that the prince was not responsible for this man's death. howard: right. >> and he looked him in the eye and said that. howard: there were some disputed accounts in the saudi version. ben, there's been a lot of media criticism -- we don't have that much time -- so was the media criticism off base, a lot of it on fox fox and on the right, using the president's own words against him? >> i think it's a luxury to be able to sit outside at white house and to, you know, throw rocks at prime ministers and say they shouldn't -- presidents and say they shouldn't even audiocassette to these people. that's just not the way that we conduct world affairs, it never will be, and it isn't the way

that represents a responsible approach -- howard: leslie, msnbc and cnn covered this on friday night, although most of later segments led with january 6th. but they didn't really offer direct criticism. the fiery joy reid, the most she would say is i'm sure that was not the image she wanted to convey. is that kind of giving biden a pass here? you can criticize and still say he should have -- [inaudible] saudi arabia. >> i cringed when i saw it, but i understood his position. you have to do something, he's a prince, you're are there for a meeting, you in his country, that's what people do. presidents are criticized if they bow, no matter what they do. to your point, howie, you know, i don't know, i think it was, you know, more again why are we focusing so heavily on that. this were much bigger issues we should have discussed. howard: i think i agree with that, a plain old handshake

probably would have been better. so great discussion. leslie, ben, thanks so much for coming by sunday. up next, ari fleischer's detailed assault on the media for snobbery, bias and getting donald trump to weigh in on his war with the press. meet leon the third... leon the second... and leon... the first of them all. three generations, who all bank differently with chase. leon's saving up for his first set of wheels... nice try. really? this leon's paying for his paint job on the spot... and this leon, as a chase private client, he's in the south of france, taking out cash with no atm fees. that's because this family of leons has chase. actually, it's león. ooh la la! one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make more of what's yours.

howard: ari fleischer is, of course, former white house press secretary for george w. bush, fox news contributor and author of the new book, suppression, deception, snobbery and bias: why the press gets so much wrong and just doesn't care. here's our conversation. ari flyer, welcome. >> thank you, howard. howard: the most interesting word here is snobbery. you say that newsrooms are mainly run by urban, college-educated professionals who print information for people just like them. you point to tv hosts and commentators mocking donald trump and those who voted for

donald trump which is, i think, even the more important point. >> yeah. it's one thing to make fun of a candidate in american life, that happens all the time, but too often -- and i begin with the anecdote of don lemon, he and his panelists mocked half the country. they ridiculed and made fun, they laughed out9 loud at people who voted for donald trump, and that's the snobbery, howard. it's killing good journalism. you cannot do that to the american people. the right shouldn't do it to the left, the left shouldn't do it to the right, but don lemon did it, and i called him out on it. howard: is it journal withism just to do that? look, you say it's understandable journalists don't like donald trump. they pick fights with him, he picks fights with them and vice versa. what happened to the notion of, yeah, we don't particularly like this guy, but we have some obligation to be fair to him? >> and this is what journalism has changed since i was white house press secretary. back then media was liberal, but

their job was to be objective. they knew it, they said it. sometimes they did it, sometimes they didn't. but today activism has taken hold, particularly -- and, again, i'll go back to cnn. there's a chapter on cnn. from the top from jeff zucker to president on down, anchors, daytime reporters were all encouraged to let it rip, give their opinion and trash donald trump. that is killing journalism once again. howard: you write that that as a former cnn contributor who says when you were there, it was slanted but not propaganda, but you see it as having been changed by the trump years to appeal to a liberal audience. >> that's correct. you really have an era now in which liberals watch liberal a stations, conservatives watch conservative stations, and you can eat what you want to eat. i would prefer a media that is objective, straight, neutral down the middle. but when you look at cbs, abc, nbs, msnbc, cnn, "the washington

post," "the new york times," all the dominant mainstream media which are all in decline have become the most opinionated. conservative media is booming, but the mainstream media's in decline. howard: you write that the press is not the enemy of the people, to use donald trump's phrase, but they sure can be their own worst enemy. i agree with that, but i was going to push back on what you wrote next. you say that the american people want to get their news straight, they want honest reporting based on facts. some do, but i think -- and you alluded to this -- increasingly many people want to see their own views reflected back to them, and that's true for viewers of cnn, msnbc and fox. >> yeah, but i think it falls into segments. i think viewers have an understanding that nighttime shows are opinion shows and it's like reading the editorial page in the newspaper. the daytime shows are suppose to be fair, straight, neutral

shows. i will take fox over cnn any day. cmn went so far into the tank the, and i say john harwood of cnn, jim acosta, several other reporters who let their opinions rip, and hair opinions are always anti-- their opinions are always anti-trump. that's the problem, and that's where i blow the whistle. i think most viewers and readers do want neutral, objective news. hay want to be told what happened. howard: right. well, cnn's ratings have taken a nose dive after the artificial sugar high of the trump years. the new boss says he's going to try to make the network less partisan. after the break, what donald trump had to say when ari fleischer interviewed him about "mediabuzz." ♪ (man) [whispering] what's going on? (burke) it's a farmers policy perk. get farmers and you could save

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howard: welcome back. here's more of my conversation about media bias and his book with ari fleischer. you interviewed donald trump for this book, and he said this

about "the new york times": they're both a victim and it also brings them, i guess, success. but i think they're so chained to the people who read it, i'm not sure they can write the truth even if they want. look, we have 50%, they have 50%. but at the same time, i don't think "the new york times" views itself as representing 50% of the country. >> this is the problem you have when newsrooms are taken over by younger activists who believe in subjectivity, not objectivity, and they a certainly don't want to hear two sides of an issue. this is increasingly a problem for journalists, and they have to appeal to their subscribers. "the new york times"' subscribers was with the resistance movement. it was not neutral people. howard: donald trump is not done with the name calling. in his interview with you, he referred to weijia jiang as crazy, jim acosta as a maniac and loser. youd asked if he would have

handled the press differently if he was president now. he said i don't think it would matter, they would treat me same. what do you think? >> the most fascinating glimpse i had of the way president trump thinks is he actually thought during the transition in 2016 that the press would be fair. he thought that is what would happen because, lo and behold, he pull off the surprise, he won. he thought campaign coverage would be over, and they'd be fare. i -- fair. i actually think, howard, if they hadn't chased the collusion theirty or -- narrative or the steele dossier, donald trump might have reacted differently. he thinks someone has to fight, and that someone is him. howard: right. well, he also uses the press as a foil and and it's the, obviously, the environment after january 6th and his campaign about what happened in 020 makes all -- 2020 makes all this more difficult. quote there from new york magazine's o are live ya knew

city that you cite, donald trump, she could write this: donald trump is the biggest a-hole, he is a terrible human being, ugly, and nobody would be mad at me except people who were already mad at me for existing. there's no penalty for trashing trump? >> right. and this is what i object to, because when i came up in politics, new york magazine, "new yorker" magazine, "the new york times" magazine, they would not pursue that type of journalism. they had to be fair. there had to be objectivity at least ostensibly. and now she's saying that's all out the window. i can write whatever i want if it's really tough on trump, and she gets that from her editors. and this is the cultural change that's underway in newsrooms that i think is so destructive to good journalism. howard: yeah. some people on the left don't like the press either now that joe biden is prime minister. you have a photo from "the new york times" of nancy pelosi and this meeting that melted down with president trump, pointing her finger. and it was described as an

iconic image capturing washington's most powerful woman standing up to him. then you roll the tape back to when barack obama was president and there's' republican governon governor jan brewer pointing at him on the tarmac and a lot of people saying, well, the president of the united states, perhaps she should have shown him more respect. >> the hypocrisy of it all. it's okay if nancy pelosi does it to donald trump, but it's not okay if if the arizona governor does it to barack obama. you know, when ruth bader ginsburg died, the front page of "the washington post" headline was a crusader for rights, basically, was their headline. and then when anthony scalia died, it was a conservative jurist dedicated to frustrating the left. what kind of neutrality is that? what kind of fairness is that? one is lionized and the other is attacked in an obituary

headline. i saw time and time again example after example if where the possess was easy and soft on the democrats -- the press was easy and soft on democrats and brutal on are republicans. i name names, and i show who did it. howard: i'm wagging my finger at you, but i'm doing it in a friendly way. [laughter] ari fleischer, thanks very much for joining us. >> thank you, howard. howard: next on "mediabuzz," the latest january 6th hearing was mostly a rehash, but many in the press hailing it for snippets of the former white house counsel's testimony. ♪ ♪

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and go out in the sun where i would have never done that before. try golo. it works. howard: the latest house january ofth hearing was largely a rehash, a taped deposition from former white house counsel pat cipollone did make some news, but lots of pundits were pumped about whole thing. >> and at some point you have to put up or shut up. that was my view. >> why was this, on a broader scale -- [inaudible] >> did i believe he concede the election at that point many time? yes, i did. >> it was jaw-dropping this the very last moment. >> one of the wildest things i've ever seen. >> this does not seem to be a gold mine for the committee. still damaging. the account of that meeting in the office is really breathtaking, it's very

disturbing. >> the january 6th committee hearing today was a laughingstock. >> i think the goal is to say that trump is not fit for office. it doesn't advance criminal case. howard: joining us now to analyze the coverage, guy benson, host of guy benson show, and laura fink, commentator and democratic strategist. guy, i thought this was the least effective of all the hearings, too many trump is guilty speeches by lawmakers, but it did strain to avoid providing any powerful sound bites. he said under oath he didn't think there was evidence of fraud, and he thought trump should have conceded the election. big muse? -- news? >> not really, because the former attorney general had said the exact same thing, bill barr, in testimony, in depositions, in his book, on cable television. so i think that cipollone was sort of on team barr. they called themselveses team moral, to some extent. we know their view, that the

president should have conceded the election and not done what he did. to get that, i guess, under oath is newsworthy but not huge news. i also thought it was interesting to see the former campaign manager for the president basically admitting openly in a text exchange that president trump's rhetoric was responsible for the riot at capitol. that was also interesting. but in terms of new news value, i think this one, to your point correctly, howie, you said this one wasn't that much of a bombshell compared to some soft to the previous iterations. howard: you're referring to brad pass corral who felt he felt guilty helping trump win after january 6th. laura, media conservatives pushed back after the more dramatic cassidy hutchinson hearing but mostly ignored this one. for media people who talk about and care about processes and very highly partisan committees, it's been packaged that way and

democrats run it, how do the pundits brush aside testimony from donald trump's own people? like cipollone? >> i don't know, and i think that cipollone may have not had the dramatic impact that other witnesses have, but they got him to testify after months of resisting, you know, testifying many front of the committee which is news in and of itself. it also corroborated cassidy hutchinson's testimony which the right was questioning. so it really was objection-handling which may not cause fireworks in the news, but it does provide an airtight story that proceeds. the cassidy hutchinson testimony won't be impugned in the future. i think they're continuing to do that a with the investigation into the text messages and the secret service. i think that continues to sort of shore this up. and then in terms of brad pascrell, i thought that was dramatic. his text messages saying trump's rhetoric was directly responsible, having that from

your own campaign manager is truly damning especially in text messages that were sent during the time in which this was all happening. howard: right. >> and let's not forget about steven ayers, because he's saying he was motivated individuality/. howard: you're jumping ahead. let me also just clarify that not everything cassidy hutchinson has been corroborated because she wasn't there for some people, and the secret service people may dispute them, haven't yet testified. let me just play some sound bite because there was this long knockdown, drag-out meeting in which white house officials were challenging the rudy giulianis of the world, and this is what rudy says he told them. >> you guys are not tough enough. or maybe i put it another way, a bunch of [bleep] excuse the expression. howard: but it wasn't bleeped at the hearing. guy, let's talk about the two witnesses, one of them a former oathkeeper spokesman who broke

with the group years ago, hates the group, so he had nothing whatsoever to say about what happened on january 6th. and steven ayers, as you mentioned, he was a social media addict who says he came to the rally because of donald trump. he walked into the capitol legally but when trump put out the video saying we love you, go home, he went home. he now thinks it's not true, what trump said, but he's one guy. and les no reason to think donald trump had any contact with him. service kind of sad and pathetic. -- it was kind of sad and pathetic. >> yeah, i'm not sure what the value is there. you can make a case about president trump and his actions leading up to january 6th, during january 6th and afterwards, and i think a lot of us watched in horror as it happened on that day. a lot of this was brought to the fore during his second impeachment trial, there is some new stuff from this committee. but i don't know why this type of witness really advances the ball at all. i don't know who it convinces of anything. so, i mean, i think they need to

be judicious about what they actually do, what they spend their time on, what they're telling the american people is important because a lot of people are are inclined not to pay attention anyway. and when they waste, in my opinion, some important air time, if you will, on this time of thing, i think it does diminish the overall impact that they might be looking for. howard: right. it certainly, in my view, was not nearly as strong as the other hearings, and i think that's a good point. laura, the other media bombshell came in the last minute when liz cheney, and they always do a tease for the next -- before the next hearing, said the media are saying witness intimidation. cnn and others reporting it's a support staffer at the white house, somebody who wouldn't ordinarily get a call from the president. so is that a bombshell or just an attempt that didn't succeed? >> well, i think president trump, a former president calling support staff for any reason when they are linked to this congressional hearing is a

big deal. because it follows a pattern of behavior that has been reported on before. so president trump attempting to dissuade everyone from state elected officials from doing their job right up until this week, it follows the pattern of behavior. he does try to intimidate and persuade and try to get people from telling the truth and from doing their duty. and so i think that it fits into a pattern of behavior, and it's just the latest example. think that's huge. i think rep cheney was right. howard: right. i would just say, this is not the liberal media folks, i don't understand why people like barr, cipollone were on the trump team, conservatives were perfectly willing to believe them and now that they're testifying under oath, they're just being dismissed. still to come, a newspaper came under fire, some critic dismissed the story as fake when ohio charged an illegal immigrant with raping a

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howard: the indianapolis star took plenty of flak for reporting on rape of a 10-year-old ohio girl who was said to have gone to indiana for an abortion abortion. an obstetrician that works at abe university's medical school -- indiana university's medical center. jim jordan called it a lie, the "wall street journal" dubbed it a fanciful tale. ohio's a.g. called it a likely fabrication, but as the columbus dispatch was first to report, a man has been charged with this horrifying rape, and he has confessed. story was true. guys, this monster -- an illegal immigrant according to a source

at i.c.e -- has been charged with this despicable crime. some media conservatives had called the story questionable, not true or even fake. does this, not -- now that we know this happened, does this vindicate what the indianapolis star did? >> i think it's a complicated answer to that question, howie, because i think conservatives and other people were right to be, let's say, skeptical of this story and to question whether or not it was real. i think asserting that it was false or fake was also premature. but one source who is an advocate with scant details and really no proof, that's not enough, in my view, to go on print or go on air, certainly to get all the way up to the president of the united states stating a story as if it were fact when it had not been established. now, it turns out that the is true. there are questions about -- that the story is true. there are questions with about ohio's law, the a.g. in ohio says it's not illegal.

overall, just a horrible story in general. but i think early skepticism was warranted. now we have more proof and more evidence, which is important, and the discussion, a tough one, will flow from will. howard: i guess i would challenge you only on point that we don't know exactly what dr. caitlin bernard told the indianapolis paper, maybe more than paper was able to print, but also "the washington post" fact checker said it could not be proven based on the details we knew. >> right, that's my point. howard: laura, are abortion advocates using in the to dramatize the reality that with the supreme court tossing out roe and sending the question back to the states, there is no rape exception in this ruling? some states may decide to adopt one, some states may not. and so it's not as simple as just some states will make it illegal, some states will keep it legal. >> i think it throws into stark leaf the risks that women face every day and children face

every day as a result. we saw conservative media and pundits play down the i repeal of roe as if nothing to see here, and we can see from this story -- and, frankly, the knee-jerk reaction of conservative pundits, the "wall street journal" editorial board and even glenn kessler at the post -- to not believe that this was a story and to not even dig in further to try to find out the truth. instead, they condemned it. that shows they're not prepared for this type of story and this reality, that women and girls are facing across the country today. i think it was media a malpractice, frankly, to go ahead and condemn this, story as not being true without facts and then in the retraction to not -- "the wall street journal" put a one-liner at the top of their editorial instead of pulling it back even though it had been disproven. fox news hosts didn't address it after all of this except to talk about the predator and if never, never went back on what they said. i think this is an example of media bias in the strongest possible terms. howard: yeah. the "wall street journal" made a longer editor's note, and no one

was saying it wasn't important, it was, like, is it true. 20 seconds for each of you. some are you going after dr. caitlin bernard saying she didn't report the rape. it turns out she did under her obligation. guy first. >> yeah, i i think we should be careful about how we discuss all these very sensitive matters, and those of us who are pro-life need to be prepared for debate. i think it's also true that the media is overwhelmingly biased on this question the other direction, many journalists are in favor of abortion rights. howard: laura. >> i thinkable reveals the fact that women -- our health is in danger, that laws are opaque, that rape is rarely reported and that all of these barriers to abortion that republicans have it -- set up engager the life of women and -- endanger the lives of women and girls. howard: all right. this also underscores the challenge for the media now covering 50 state battles over abortion. that's it for this edition of

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in the 1950 census. see what you can uncover at ancestry. arthel: president biden is back in washington after first middle east trip as commander in chief and with that challenging visit behind him the president facing political headwinds here at home. his poll numbers are down with approval rating of 40% as compared to president reagan at 42% before midterms and biden agenda took a big blow while abroad. hello, welcome to fox news live, i'm arthel neville, hi,