♪ ♪ howard: here's a question. we now mow why the justice department ordered the mar-a-lago search after pailing to retrieve some of the documents that a donald trump took to his florida home, but how do we do this? well, multiple people briefed on the matter says the new york times story that most of the media called a bombshell. people familiar with the matter said it's clear some of these sources work for doj and that these leaks are absolutely improper in a criminal investigation even if the target's name is trump. yet, most news outlets aren't

even questioning how this came to light. merrick garland was getting creamed in the pr war as trump repeatedly slammed the search as a break-in, but the attorney general felt he couldn't publicly respond. so justice department officials made hair case through leaks -- their case through leaks which violate the rights of a potential defendant who hasn't been charged with anything and may not be. they made garland's case from a behind a curtain of anonymity. a poll-up piece in "the washington post" cited people with direct information. as an ethical matter, the leaks are indefensible. i'm howard kurtz, and this is "mediabuzz." ♪ ♪ howard: ahead, we'll question senior white house adviser gene sperling on the fierce debate over the president forgiving college debt for millions. that new york times story

triggered a media explosion, especially the part about donald trump repeatedly holding on to documents so sensitive they could only be seen in a secure government room and a deep split among the commentators. >> a stunning, brand new piece of reporting by "the new york times," hundreds of classified documents, some of them containing the country's most sensitive national security secrets, were just hanging out at donald trump's private golf club. >> garland comes out and says mum's the word, we can't say anything else. it's going to put our lives at risk. hen tells his agents to leak like a broken faucet. all of a sudden, half the country thinks trump had -- at mar-a-lago. howard: and sharply different statements after the release of that heavily recontacted -- redacted affidavit. >> this is material so sensitive that you can't release it to -- and he stuck it in a closet.

>> unfortunately, the magistrate judge allowed the doj to go wild with the redactions. >> even just the parts we have just reveals that the fbi, the justice department think that donald trump is a liar. >> the affidavit alleges that there was probable cause to believe that evidence of obstruction was going to be found at mar-a-lago. all right, then let's see it. where's the actual evidencesome -- evidence? howard: joining us now to analyze the coverage, mollie hemingway, editor-in-chief of the federalist, and in los angeles, leslie marshall. both are fox news contributors. molll -- moll women ie, what do you make of the coverage of the redacted affidavit, as we just heard, probable cause of evidence of obstruction. >> a couple weeks ago this was the most explosive story we'd seen in maybe decades, and you have everyone from andrew cuomo

to george will, to the new yorker, to mother jones saying department of justice needed to quickly explain what justified this raidnot indict within two weeks in order to avoid this looking like a very pretty size. instead, we've heard press conferences, refusal to answer questions, the leaks you mentioned and then this heavily redacted document for even the reasons why it's redacted are recontacted. so the burden of proof is clearly on fbi, and we should remember the fbi was an agency that false iffied evidence in order to procure a warrant to spy on the trump campaign just a few years ago. howard: well, leslie, this notion of let's see evidence, this is an ongoing investigation, no one's been charged, no prosecution ever puts out its evidence at this stage of the game. but shouldn't the media acknowledge that that, as expected, we didn't learn that much because so many pages were blacked out, particularly you

could just kind of tell when it got to the most sensitive stuff? >> well, yeah. i don't think that you needed a degree from harvard in rocket science to know this was going to be heavily redacted for the reasons you talk about, howard. we're not just looking at an ongoing investigation, we're looking at an ongoing investigation to three potential criminal charges, one of which is espionage. people have been hung in country in the past for that. so, i mean, this is very serious, and i know people want to make this political. this is not just about national security, this is about laws. and if laws are broken, i don't, you know, i don't care who you are, i don't care if you're the the lord, you can't break the laws. and the investigation has to go on without this -- would this be witness tampering or harm that could come to a witness. and certainly, we have agents who immediate to be protected within our criminal justice system. so, yeah, look, people say this

is unprecedented, it's all unprecedented. it's also unprecedented to say, hey, show the whole world all of your evidence because mollie is right, a prosecution, if this does go bard, are the people half -- forward, are the people that have the burden to prove, right? howard: right. >> i've never seen in a court of law, here's what i've got -- [laughter] howard: not at stage at least. >> correct. howard: the judge redacted some of this because he accepted the doj argument that some of this would, as you say, compromise human resources or provide to a road map to the investigation. also, though, president trump filing a suit that press kind of laughed at, but the judge saying inclined to appoint a special master or outside expert to look at everything that was retrieved. although it seems to me the horse is out of the barn, and doj's looking at this. mollie, going back to those stories from the top, do you find it striking as i do can that no one in the left-leaning news outlets even questioned

where these sensitive insider details came from when it's quite obviously in part the department of justice? >> again, this is the same hinge we've been through for years. yes, the department of justice and the fbi are leaking like colinner thes -- collenders, and they're going babb back to the very same reporters who helped them with the russia collusion hoax which, again, nobody has been held accountable for what was done to the trump administration to make it seem like trump had stolen the 2016 election by conspiring with russia. that means you have tens of millions of americans who are now wise to this. they now understand that the fbi and department of justice go to reporters they know are easily going to reexcuse me tate those leaks without skepticism or demand for evidence, and they're sick and tired of it, and they're just not going along with it. the media see this as a politicized raid that will help democrats in the midterm elections or in the next

presidential election, so they just don't have the scrutiny that any responsible journalist should have. and also people who played along with the russia collusion hoax should be banned from this type of coverage going further. howard: it was donald trump's deputy attorney general who awarded -- [inaudible] certainly a lot on program about the coverage of it and also that the fbi is headed by a trump trump point tee, chris wray. -- appointee. the justice department and fbi are leaking at levels never seen before, and i did nothing wrong, referring to people at those agencies as thugs and hacks. as a one-time justice department reporter myself, it's concerned an ironclad rule that you can't leak about an ongoing criminal probe because it's monstrously unfair to a potential defendant. unless it's trump, perhaps? >> it's not only unfair, it's dangerous. and i really don't care who it's about. sadly, we are not just in this time, and i would say i'm old

enough to remember the clinton administration, and i say that because there were leak ares then whether it was nannygate, travelgate, various women coming forward, and we've seen this. we've seen an erosion whether it's with journalists or an erosion within these highly sensitive agencies. and honestly, we've also seen to an erosion as to trust in these agencies. and sometimes it's on left, sometimes it's on the right. it depends which political candidate they're attacking. to the politics of it that mollie mentioned, ooh i'm going to disagree on that and i'll tell you why. i think this has helped donald trump politically and not my side of aisle at all. we have seen within the republican party in the most recent polls the a approval rating for donald trump going up and, as a matter of fact, a lot of people were saying i don't think it's going to be trump, it's going to be desantis that's going to be the nominee, and people are changing their tune on that. so i think, if anything, it has helped rile up the maga base of donald trump and make, made them

less apathetic in the coming election. howard: i agree with you to this point, but now maybe the picture is changeing. and base on these leaking stories, there's a picture of donald trump giving back some of the classified documents that the national archives wanted, at one point minuting the boxes themselves -- himself, i should say. that sounds like pretty big news. >> i could not discan agree more strongly. looks like a paperwork dispute, the kind that are very common with all outgoing presidents. there are secure facilities at mar-a-lago, obviously. he was working with the department of justice and fbi. and, again, this is an agency that is correctly and recently -- directly and recently involved with trying to take man down. they need to be doing everything perfectly. instead, they do this raid, they blame trump for it going public. merrick garland gives a weird press conference where he

refuses to answer questions, and they're leaking in the same way they have been in the recent past. this is an fbi that just this week and department of justice were involved in that mark zuckerberg story where he said that they had encouraged facebook to suppress informatio- howard: we'll get to it. >> -- before the election. this is an agency that is completely out of control. it is a threat to the republic, and people on both sides of the aisle need to care about having law enforcement agencies and intelligence a agencies that are not this corrupted. howard: well, i would just note that it's a court-approved warrant. a judge had to approve this. at the same time, let me ask you this, leslie. this doesn't prove the court-approved warrant was justified, but an e-mail obtain by "the washington post" shows pat cipollone in the final days of the administration was assuring the national archives that the documents, classified documents would be returned. so it's not just a question of, you know, what the former

president has at mar-a-lago now. that was when he was still president. your final thoughts. >> well, if we look at the national archives, i mean, you know, sort of paraphrasing here, but can we have those back, one. can we have hose back, pretty please? can you keep hem in a more secure location, put a hock on it? i'm sorry, i agree with you, this was not a raid. when we killed osama bin laden, that was a raid from where i stand. and so another thing, if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to hide. if i have nothing to hide, come to my house, look for it, take any documents, and i'm not going to cry, whine or play victim about it because i've done nothing. howard: well, donald turn did support the affidavit -- trump did support the affidavit being released. ahead, mark zuckerberg admits he suppressed hunter biden story after a warning from the fbi. but when we come back, anthony paw chi packing it in -- fauci

packing it in and the media packing it in and the media either saluting or slamming him. ♪isn' ♪ she's in austin between a fresh bowl of matcha and a fresh batch of wireframes. and you can find her, and millions of other talented pros, right now on upwork.com

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howard: when anthony fauci announced he'll be stepping down in december as head of the infectious disease institute, he was immediately praised by media liberals and pilaried by media conservatives. >> i don't think it's an exaggeration to to say that there are millions of human beings alive today who would not be alive if not for the work that dr. fauci did, coordinatedded and led are. >> after lying to americans about gain of function research, the origins of covid-19 and masks and vaccines and pretty much everything else, dr. flip-flop fauci is now jumping ship. howard: the 81-year-old doctor made the tv rounds starting with

rachel maddow. >> there is a weird, obsessive, violent, ongoing demonization of you by the right that has hinged on covid. >> it's a complete distortion of reality. i mean, a world of where untruths have almost become normalized. >> so this wasn't a way to avoid republican informations -- investigations if they take over the house and/or the senate. >> oh, neil, not at all. not even a little bit. but some of the things that have gone on have been outright character assassination. howard: mollie, what does this say about our culture that a much of media's hailing dr. fauci's career and another part vilifying him as a liar who made the pandemic worse? >> i think the corporate media are praising him because they like the things that he did helped democrats in recent elections. but i wish we would see much more balanced coverage going back to the reagan era when he

was involved in the controversial handling of aids, of his controversial handling of everything with covid. contrary to what eugene robinson says, there's a credible accusation that anthony fauci was involved with gain of function research that a directly related to pandemic that has killed so many millions of people world wild. he admitted to lying about what we told the american people because he didn't think they could handle the truth about what the rates of vaccination would be or how he handled masking policy. this is someone who's had outsized role in the u.s. economy, in the lyes of people. -- lives of people. he needs to be handled critically, and democrat media need to understand they should be operating as journalists now. howard: leslie, what boosters like rachel maddow say is that paw chi is polarizing because of right-wing atracks, but fauci

also argues he's been de. monoized by conservatives. -- can demonized. >> i would agree from where i'm at. in the very beginning, dr. fauci, people on the right were making voodoo dolls and singing pins -- sticking pins in it. and then when the president started to say some things that you saw -- not only dr. fauci, but other doctors uncomfortable with, and dr. fauci had guts to say, no, i don't agree with thaa demonoization, and i feel it started from the former president that furthered that divide in the country. you know, i have to say this man is somebody who devoted his career to helping others. you know i'm married to a medical profession, -- professional, and it's mind-blowing to me how it became political. i have friends in my own talk radio business that died because they refused to get vaccinated

or they were taking some kind of hocus pocus potion that didn't work because they didn't believe in a lot of this crazy hype. and i just, i think it's terrible. there have been death threats to this man and his family. covid is something that doctors still aren't 100% sure of. doctors aren't gods, and medicine is not an exact science. howard: all right. mollie, lockdowns were ultimately decided by governors and, to a less aer extent, the president. did fauci's never ending rounds of print, podcasts, f a make him responsible as opposed to being an adviser? >> i think it's a good point that governors were ultimately responsible, but the media created such hysteria and made paw chi out to be this god. you remember all the people with their candles, their fauci candles, they were worshiping and adoring him and possessor out cuting anyone who didn't follow what he said to a tee.

the media made him such around important figure, but he himself is almost delusionally narcissistic. i remember when he said people attack him because they attack science. what a way of not being self-critical and humble. howard: leslie, fauci admits he was too slow on aids and later sided with the activists, against masks at the end of -- beginning of the pandemic, but he says conservatives always made it about him when it was consensus of scientists, and simes the scientists were wrong -- sometimes the scientists were wrong. >> again, i mean, you know, 2 plus 2 the is 4, but medicine specifically are theories. and we find out that these theories can be accurate or not. we have things we're doing today that were theories that don't help us, right? vitamin c does not necessarily prevent you from getting a cold, and i still pop it when i peel like i'm getting a cold. [laughter] that's what it is, medicine is ongoing. it is, it is an evolutionary

process, and it will be long after we're gone with everything. covid included and anything that comes down the pike in the future. howard: well, not that we'll be gone in december, but i have a feeling we'll still be hearing from him with capitol to hill investigations. mollie hemingway and leslie marshall, thank you so much. up next, andy mccarthy on the fbi affidavit and the fallout from donald trump's legal strategy. ♪ ♪

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howard: my next guest is a former federal prosecutor who says the latest moves by donald trump and his team have backfired big league, that's a legal term. joining us now, andy mccarthy, a contributor to national review and to fox news. andy, your quick take on the redacted fbi affidavit, and now note -- you notedded the reference to uncharged person, who could be donald trump.

and i agree we your assessment on the matter of these classified documents. >> howie, it doesn't make sense to me that they would fight so hard to withhold this information if they actually intended to charge him, because in a normal case -- and, by the way, in a normal case you do the searches at the end can -- but all this stuff would be turned over in discovery, so the fact that they're fighting disclosure so hard is indicative of at least a sign that they won't prosecute. howard: certainly not being read that way by a lot of people who are jumping on various phrases in the redacted documents. you write that based on the latest reporting and revelations that trump's stubborn determination to block the fbi from examining boxes of records containing documents marked as highly classified, and you say if you're not trying to get indicted, the best defense is usually not a good offense. explain. >> well, he's out there saying, you know, look, i was totally

cooperative, i was totally transparent. then we bet -- i'm not talking here now, howie, about reporting from the media, we get an actual government document prosecute national archivist who explains that for a long time they fought to try to get the former president to return these records because they're the property of the government. when he finally returned hem, they had classified information in it. when that happens, especially if it's highly classifieded, the fbi has to do and the intelligence community has to do a damage assessment to see if we have, you know, informants who are in danger or methods and sources of intelligence that have been blown. finish and instead of letting that happen, trump bought the fbi in getting access which is why biden ends up having to get involved. so, you know, i think on the one hand he's out there saying he's trying to be transparent, and the record is showing something very different. howard: speaking of president biden, he got a shouted question about the fbi search from peter

doocy. take a look. >> reporter: mr. president, how much advance notice did you have of the fbi's plan to search mar-a-lago? >> i didn't have any if advance notice. money, zero, not one single bit. howard: so you explain that president biden was required by law to rule on trump's executive privilege request, but he already knew there was a matter with the archives because the first washington post story was published back in january. he did simply defer to the justice -- defer to the justice department's decision. that doesn't mean they told him in advance there was going to be a search team sent to mar-a-lago? >> that's correct. it looks like the official action that biden took, it iowa peers happened in -- it appears happened in pen when the justice department asked him to have a archives make the stuff available to the fbi. and then after that, in april, when trump asserted privilege if, it was then up to biden to

decide whether to support that or not. that doesn't mean he knew about the precise time or even the details of a raid that happened in august. on the other hand, i'd say, howie, that, you know, they've teed this up as a national security issue, and i know he doesn't want to appear, the president, to be interfering with the administration of justice and he wants to let the justice department be as if he were a fourth branch of government, but the president's most important responsibilities are national security. and if that's what this was, it's kind of foolish if he wasn't advised. there'd be nothing wrong with him being ad vised, but if he wasn't, i'd say that's more problematic. howard: it's a complicated story, thanks for helping us. andy can mccarthy, good to see you. next on "mediabuzz," president biden drawing praise and sharp criticism for forgiving college debt. i'll talk to white housei ea education supervisor gene sperling many a moment. hello cashback!

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flak even from some liberal pundit, president biden is forgiving student debt for millions of people. shifting the burden to taxpayers. regular borrowers get to write off $10,000, and pell grant recipients $0,000. >> i believe my plan -- 20,000. i believe my plan is responsible and fair. if you make urn $125,000, you get $10,000 knocked off your student debt. >> for a lot of the youngs, today was a good day. >> putting these kids through the universities, indoctrinating them, making the universities rich, making the rest are of us pay for it, my heart bleeds for the people who actually went out and paid their loans. howard: joining us now from santa monica is gene sperling, a senior adviser to the president. gene, welcome. you're the numbers guy. the consensus among the economists -- and i know the white house hasn't done an official estimate yet -- is that this loan will cost $300-500 billion. this is as if the treasury sent these people checks.

how on earth is that not going to fuel inflation? >> so, first of all, howard, thanks for having me. we, our estimate is actually -- 24 billion a year, so that birthday -- be about $240 billion over the next 10 is years. and that is simply saying that we are expecting the $24 billion would come in per year, that now people would not have to pay because they had their debt canceled or reduced. you know, we think, obviously, this is going to be a major benefit for temperature tens of millions of american middle class families who have simply been trying to better themselves at a i'm of not just covid, but -- time of not just covid, but higher costs for colleges and less help through things like pell grants and in terms of actually needing the full cost of tuition. and i think there's a lot of studies out there that show this kind of relief is going to lead

to more small business formation, more young people taking risks, more home ownership. it's going to have lots of benefits -- howard: we shall see. >> in terms of inflation -- howard: let me just jump in -- okay, go ahead. >> yeah. in terms of inflation, i understand people like to hear what independent analysts think, and they should look at what goldman sachs and moody's, two top financial firms, are have estimated. they've estimated this would be either a wash with inflation wise or slightly deflationary, and the reason is they're looking at the full proposal the president made -- howard: all right. >> which does provide debt relief. but, howard, this is important part, it also resumes the payments for next year. and when you look at the reassuming those payments plus the debt relief, you find it either has a wash on inflation or it's actually slightly deflationary. howard: this isn't just a right-left battle. your former colleague jason

furman call this reckless, pouring half a trillion dollars on the inflation -- of gasoline on inflation. strong words. >> yeah. i don't think the numbers back up the claims. first of all, 90% of the benefit goes to people under $75,000. compare that to the trump tax cut where about 90, 85% went to people over $75,000 or only 15% went to those under $75,000. here it's 90%. and 90% going to those under $60,000 who would get the extra 10,000 because they received pell grants. i think it's very well targeted to middle class families, to working poor families who really, really have needed those funds. howard: but you know, gene -- >> i know my friend jason furman doesn't like the proposal, but he's just wrong on the

inflationary if side. again, you don't have to pick him versus me, you can pit him against goldman sachs, against moody's, even one of his former mentor, joe stiglitz, who all said to look at the full come by mission. this is not leading to -- combination. howard: i wasn't trying to start a fight between friends, but "the new york times" says that president biden agonized over this. the headline was he gave in to pressure. to his credit, he cysted pressure from chuck schumer and elizabeth warren to forgive $50,000 per student. but here's what the president said a month into his term on cnn. >> it depends on the idea that i say to a community i'm going to forgive the debt of billions of dollars for people who have gone to harvard and yale and penn. i don't think i have the authority to do it by signing a tape paper. howard: was joe biden right then? >> well, you are right with the following: this was one of those proposals where a whole lot of

people, including people like chuck schumer, elizabeth warren, wanted us to do much more. there were some, as you said, like a couple of my friends who wanted us to do less. i think he got it just right. i think this was a goldilocks moment. and i think the way he addressed that a issue of not wanting to give relief to people who might have seemed upper income or privileged was to look at their current income. and by by saying that nobody would receive this who makes over $125,000, that none would go to people in the top 5% and that 90% would go to people under 75,000 and even a larger percentage, and that amount to people under 60,000 who would get the extra 10,000 who received pell grants -- howard: i was right. >> -- that was his way, i think, of hitting that right-middle which was to insure he was providing the relief. but instead of limiting it by whether you went to a prestigious college, he limited

it to income. howard: i think this'll be settled by the courts. let's address the elephant in the room, which is the unfair 'em. doesn't help people who went to college and paid off their loan, and it doesn't help the majority of the country, slight majority, that that didn't go to college at all. yet all these people as taxpayers have to now pay for the many college graduates who are probably better positioned in the job market and married couples who earn as much as $250,000 a year. how is that fair? >> i think, first, fairness argument in terms of what i said, that 90% goes to families under 75,000. i think, secondly, i think when people look at what benefits them, they don't look just at themselves. they have families, nephews, nieces, grandchildren. i think there's a lot of people who see someone in their family who have debt or would have liked to have gone to school or completed a degree had they been able to aboard it more. and finally, howie i mean, this

is just truth, every proposal has this element to that. both donald trump and joe biden increased the child tax credit. finish both of them did. and yet that didn't help the families who had already seen their children become adults or some people who didn't have children -- the. howard: right, right. since you mentioned -- >> capping insulin at $35, it's not necessarily going to help the people who already paid more in the past. i think people take a broad view of this. howard: gene -- >> people with just high school degrees are actually strong supporters of the president's student debt relief -- howard: i've literally got half a minute, but since you mentioned donald trump, the president's decision got a fair amount of media attention for a day or two. doesn't in this and at other things the president's trying to do the get blown off the screen by all the relentless coverage of the trump mel will lo drama? [laughter] >> well, you know, this is my third white house, and i have learned and we have all learned and i think our chief of staff, ron klain, and certainly joe

biden has learned when you're in these jobs, you put your head down, and you just do everything you can every day to help the people that you were elected to help. and this is something, you know, high debt for 43 million middle class, working class families, this is a perfect example of doing the people's business, making a tough choice. again, finding that goldilocks decision between those who wanted more or less. i think we got -- we ended in the right place. howard: well, thanks for picking your head up to talk to us today, gene sperling. thank you so much. >> thank you. [laughter] howard: after the break, mark zuckerberg admits facebook suppressed the hunter biden laptop story after a warning from the fbi. charlie gasparino is on deck.p ♪wi ♪ d, no matter how much i paid, it followed me everywhere. between the high interest, the fees... i felt trapped. debt, debt, debt. so i broke up with my credit card debt and consolidated it into a low-rate personal loan from sofi.

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anncr vo: side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. mom tc: need to get your a1c down? song: a1c down with rybelsus® anncr vo: ask your healthcare provider about rybelsus® today. howard: it's a stunning admission, mark zuckerberg now says facebook suppressed hunter biden laptop story at the end of the 2020 campaign after receiving a warning from the fbi. it was after the bureau warned his company about russian disinformation, suborrer berg told podcaster -- zuckerberg told podcaster rogan -- joe rogan. >> when it was basically being, being determined whether it was false, the distribution on facebook was decreased, but people were still allowed to share it. so fewer people saw it than would have otherwise. so it definitely --

>> by what percentage? >> i don't know off the top of my head, but it's meaningful. howard: he didn't exactly offer a policy for suppressing a story that was absolutely true. >> is there regret for not having it evenly distributed and for throttling the contribution of that story? >> yeah, yeah. i mean, it sucks. howard: joining us now from connecticut, charlie gasparino, senior business correspondent for fox business network. it sucks, charlie. next time i do something wrong, it just sucks. [laughter] twitter outright banned the story, and jack dorsey later a apologized. doesn't what mark zuckerberg did amount to shadow banning? >> it really is bad. and these are companies that enjoy incredible benefits from the government. section 230 of the communications act basically allows hem to post anything without any legal repercussions, and people are always talking

about ending that. and i really think if they want to play, if government comes to them with stuff about suppressing speech, it's one thing to say, hey, you know, there's death threats going on against dr. fauci on twitter, so try to to ban people who make death threats against dr. fauci. it's another thing to say ban a story or ban a person for an opinion. you know, twitter banned alex berenson, and this also occurred, came out on joe rogan -- he's a font of news -- after the biden administration told them to do so because he was a vaccine skeptic. he's a journalist, as you know. howard: right. let me get to the next story. "the new york post" story was true as was confirmed a year and a half later. the russian disinformation argument was d.s., is so why -- b.s., so why is the fbi going to facebook with warning? isn't this a brazen attempt to influence what's allowed on one of the world's biggest media

companies? >> if you want to know why so many conservatives, but others included, are so skeptical about this fbi whatever you want to call it, raid or, you know, visit to mar-a-lago for these tock do unit withs, because it really does appear that the sort of law enforcement agencies had it out for trump from day one and that they were looking for anything, unturning every single rock to catch him on something. and, you know, you can kind of put this in the same category. i mean, think about it. if this is a story that's on the front page of the new york post, you can't totally collapse it. it's going to be out will. i mean, we're going to talk about on fox. howard: yeah. >> yet you go to this huge social media network, and you try and get it banned. it really was amazing. and i think both facebook and twitter -- and they're setting the stage for losing their section 230 exemptions, and that's going to be a huge problem -- howard: right. i don't want to overlook the role of the fbi here. >> oh, yeah. howard: zuckerberg says, well,

we didn't know whether the story was true few, we had to get it from a third party. isn't it time to drop the fiction that, oh, we're not a media company, and we can't possibly decide that? >> well, he's got to keep that going so he keeps his section 230, because he can get sued for libel. howard: but he is a media company. >> okay. then drop his section 230 -- the. howard: some people want to do that. >> they're playing a dangerous game, and on top of it all i've never used the word deep state in the sense that i really believed it. i'm starting to believe it's true. this is, this is crazy stuff. the fbi and the biden administration, they go to these social media platform, get people banned and silenced. the best way to do would be, like, to run the story, let people decide and then, by the way, once the biden administration shoots it down, which it never did, that was the fascinating thing. howard: yeah. >> from day one they never

commentedded on this story. they would say it's completely false, here's the documentation the. they never did. but let the truth bear out. there's a way thing could get solved without playing big brother. howard: yeah, okay. fair point. yeah. we certainly learned a lot more thanks to the joe rogan podcast. still to come, stick around, a former twitter executive says the company lied to the feds about spam on the site, and elon musk is seizing on that. stay with us. ♪

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howard: twitter's former head of security has filed a whistleblower's complaint accusing the company of lying to federal officials about efforts to reduce spam. >> if you don't have an understanding of what's real, what's not, yeah, i think this

is pretty scary. >> are you nervous? enter yeah, yeah. this wasn't my first choice. that's -- yeah, i just want to make world a better place, a safer place. howard: charlie gasparino, this whistleblower's complaint is coming from a guy with a history of going after hacking. how much could these stunning allegations by zatko affect the future of the company? >> tremendously. i mean, if you believe -- if what he's saying is true, and you've got to say if. whistleblowers are not always truthful, and there's some wiggle room in their disclosures. remember, twitter discloses stuff to the financial community every quarter, and as part of that disclosure, it's how many bots and fake accounts occur. if they are undercounting purposefully those bots and fake accounts particularly to get more advertising, if that can be proven, that's called securities fraud. and, you know, it'll go back, they'll bo back and if they'll jam up jack dorsey, dick

costolo, the current ceo. howard: yeah. >> this is a huge problem for the country if true, again. howard: absolutely. but also e ron musk has already seized on in this his allegation to get out of buying twitter. this must be manna from heaven for elon. >> yeah, it is. [laughter] it helps build his case. he didn't have much evidence. this guy apparently has 200 pages of stuff. so this is a pretty big deal. but i'll tell you for twitter this is more existential than elon musk. he could walk away from the deal and pay them a billion dollar break-up fee. that could happen and they lose a big payday. but if this is true, they're going to get charged with fraud. i mean, this is years and years of disclosures that said 5% or less are are bots -- howard: yeah. >> -- nothing more. and if it's a lot more -- howard: charlie, i've got half a minute. twitter's ceo says zatko was fired in january for poor performance and is pushing a false their -- narrative.

is that standard for these companies? >> yeah, you hear it every time, and a lot of times they're right, that they are fired for good reasons. [laughter] i'm not saying this is the case. whistle-blowers are crazy, but that doesn't mean they're wrong. they're often right. snowden was right. he was a little crazy -- howard: i assume you mean obsessed. >> obsessed. the type of person who becomes a whistleblower isn't wrapped as tight as you think. that doesn't mean what they're saying is wrong, okay? their weird personality quirks are different than what they're saying. howard: we will watch that story. charlie, good to see you, as always. i want to take a moment to thank you for the outpouring of positive feedback about our balanced approach after the cancellation of the rival show on cnn. now, some people on twitter andbook said get off the air, you moron, but most embraced our commitment to fairness. that's it for this edition of "mediabuzz." i'm howard kurtz.

subscribe to my podcast, and apple itunes is a very good place to do it. we tried to cover the waterfront today, from the trump investigation to the white house dealing with student debt and all of that. just a reminder, we're back here next sunday, our usual time, 11 eastern. with the only media analysis show on national television. ♪ like the shot they take. the memories they create. or the spin they initiate. otezla. it's a choice you can make. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, you can achieve clearer skin. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. otezla can cause serious allergic reactions. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur.

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eric: top stories we are watching this hour. mar-a-lago intelligence hearing. that will come later on this week but down at the border, texas governor greg abbott sending more bus loads of migrants to new york city. hello, everyone, welcome to fox news live. i'm eric sean. arthel: hi, we are, i'm arthel neville. another big story we are watching, eric, the fallout from president biden's student loan handout and why critics say it will do more harm than good. but first new legal action over the unprecedente