on fox news. "america reports" again will talk with the man who right now has the 15 votes for others against kevin mccarthy, byron donalds from florida, congressman elect. thanks for watching us on "outnumbered." and when you can't watch, dvr. >> sandra: "america reports" with the house floor, speakership battle enters a second day with kevin mccarthy fighting members of his own republican party to take the top job. hello and welcome, everyone, i'm sandra smith in new york. hello, john. >> john: mccarthy receiving a fourth nomination for the leadership role, appears to be losing again as republican holdouts dig in their heels. byron donalds also receiving a nomination along with keen

jeffries. >> my first vote for speaker of the house was for byron donalds. today i am rising to nominate byron donalds for speaker of the house of representatives. now, here we are and for the first time in history there have been two black americans placed into the nomination for speaker of the house. [applause] >> john: standoff ratcheting up tensions and raising fears of a longer term rift among republicans as the gop leadership remains on hold. >> sandra: congressman elect donalds will be joining us in a moment, byron donalds is watching for the final vote cast on the float and then hop in front of the camera and join us live. >> john: first we go to chad pergram live on capitol hill. chad, looks like groundhog day today. >> well, right now the one thing

we know is that they are not going to elect a speaker of the house on this roll call vote. the first vote of the day, the fourth overall in the past two days and kevin mccarthy has not been able to get an outright majority of the entire house of people voting by name, so that means there will be a fifth ballot. now, a couple of things to watch for. right now they are up to 16 votes for byron donalds. in the other roll call votes here it was 19 on the first couple of votes there for somebody else other than kevin mccarthy yesterday, 19 for jim jordan, then 20 and byron donalds voted for jim jordan on the final vote yesterday. the thing to watch is whether or not the vote for mccarthy or against mccarthy goes up or down. we thought a few minutes ago before the vote started about 12:20, the house might go to recess or effort to get the house into recess, a bad sign for mccarthy.

he did not move the meter overnight and the statement by former president trump did not do anything in favor of kevin mccarthy. president trump does not have the same political wattage, he does not carry as much weight in the republican conference on capitol hill as he used to. but, we'll see in a few minutes if that number goes above 20 or below 20. and watch how many total members are voting. 434, that was the magic number yesterday. there were 434 votes. you start to get attrition when you go into vote after vote after vote. if that number falls, it changes the math. it changes the algebraic equation, if people absent from the mccarthy side and against mccarthy or on the democratic side of the aisle. the other thing i should note here is that you know, there was talk the past couple days if this gets into a staring contest and what we are really in is the biggest game of chicken with the

sides staring at each other the past couple of days, that they could, and precedent for this in the house of representatives, in the 19th century where they failed to elect a speaker and they lowered the bar from an outright majority of members casting ballots for somebody by name down to somebody with just the most votes and they elected the speaker. here is the problem. if they were to do that, and depending how many members showed up, hakeem jeffries has been outpolling kevin mccarthy on every single ballot so republicans have to be careful about not doing that. that does not seem to be an option right now. we are looking at the house floor, chip roy, the republican congressman from texas who put into nomination byron donalds, the republican from florida. he just voted, he voted obviously for byron donalds there. so, we got to see, we are on the cusp, 19 or 20 votes and the question then becomes how much longer is kevin mccarthy, if he does not get it on the next vote, obviously not on this one,

do they continue to hammer away. i talked to one moderate republican before i came on the air earlier this afternoon who said we are going to continue to have vote after vote after vote. these opponents of kevin mccarthy were not going to let them win. we have more than 92% of the republican conference who are supporting kevin mccarthy. why should they get to dictate. the problem is, those are the rules. they do get to dictate because so far kevin mccarthy nor any other candidates has been able to catch up and get the votes. the other thing i keep hearing about are scenarios and maybe having a consensus candidate, where some of the moderates might team with the problem solvers caucus, you have a bipartisan coalition of democrats and republicans there who might come together and say let's find a consensus person, kind of like a parlimentary system in europe. you see that from time to time overseas, you don't see it in the american system but we have not been in this state of affairs in a long time. somebody just casting a ballot a

second ago was steve scalise, the republican whip, his name has been mentioned in the past 24 hours here. he has not run for the speakership, in the fall i put the scenarios to people, and you would have to break a lot of furniture inside the capitol for him to win and i put it to somebody this morning, guess what, we have already broken a lot of furniture inside the capitol. so i have not ruled out that scenario as well. so, again, they are on to the fourth vote. they will have to have a fifth vote at least before they determine the speaker of the house and it probably won't come today. back to you. >> sandra: we learn something every single time in your reports. thank you for that. to be clear, the question everybody has as they watch this play out sort of and now what is an unprecedented way, chad, there is two options that could happen. if mccarthy does not reach the majority, it would go into more ballots if he remains in, which

he has made very clear he intends to continue on. this will just continue into more and more ballots but also to your point, looking back in history, the bar can be lowered but that would be probably a very unlikely scenario to just go into who has the most votes, right, chad, hakeem jeffries has been garnerring more than mccarthy. >> unlikely now. and we were talking about yard sticks, measuring tools to understand where we stand, and another one in the past couple of seconds. now at 20 votes for byron donalds, that is precisely the number of votes that voted against kevin mccarthy yesterday. you had, you know, 20, byron donalds, the defector that got it to 20. so what that means, kevin mccarthy, despite all the phone calls, horse trading, appeals to former president trump, statement by former president trump this morning that has not

moved things in favor of mccarthy and donalds said the idea to vote and vote and vote and wear them down, i compare it to the stockholm syndrome, keep people in the same room and they start to agree with their captors after a while, donalds said to some of our producers he thought that would backfire. sometimes what you do is you actually wear people out and they become more emboldened in their positions and don't want to budge. and i've been told by a couple of people they think it's the phenomenon happening right now on capitol hill. >> 24 votes might count as correct outstanding on the republican side, 23 now. so it looks like if others hold where they are, chad, the numbers will be exactly the same way they were in the third vote yesterday, would mean mccarthy has not lost any ground from yesterday but judging by that 20, he certainly did not gain any ground, which reinforces what you said earlier, that talks overnight do not seem to have budged. what i'm curious, about, too, former president trump issued a

very strong play on truth social to republicans to get behind kevin mccarthy and to a person all of the ones who voted for i guess jim jordan in the third vote yesterday have told donald trump thanks but no thanks and matt gaetz went to far to tweet back to donald trump saying sad. so, people are not listening to the former president here. >> you know what's interesting, john, another yard stick to measure the political wattage of the former president and his currency with the voters and also with the republican conference here on capitol hill, it did not move anything. that tells us a lot about both his bid for the white house in 2024 and maybe his currency with the republican conference. here is something else that's very interesting. if it were not, i've talked to a few republicans who said to me in the hall the past couple of days, were not for donald trump and pro trump candidates running in primaries against other moderates, that kevin mccarthy

would probably have a few more votes for speaker. i would look to western michigan, peter meyer, former congressman, he lost to a pro maga, pro trump candidate in michigan, former republican congressman from michigan, democrats helped in the effort because they wanted to portray the republican as too extreme. also had another moderate, butler lost in southern washington to another pro trump candidate. maybe herrera butler would not have voted for mccarthy, they had differences after the riot at the capitol, and some of her information came forth because she thought mccarthy was not being as truthful in the conversations with the former president. that seat flipped. that seat flipped from republican control to democratic control because the pro trump candidate was too extreme and they elected a democrat. so, if you go up and down the board and judge the weight, importance of president trump's influence in the speaker's race,

it might have actually helped kevin mccarthy had you not had some of the pro trump candidates running who ultimately lost to democrats or lost to somebody else along the line. they would have voted for kevin mccarthy in the speaker's race, john. >> so we are just getting a little bit of color about what some of the lawmakers are saying as they exit the house floor after casting their vote. fox caught up with jim jordan as he was exiting. he was asked about the 20 holdouts, jordan responded we are still working on the votes. asked for those to vote for mccarthy, jordan said we are trying and asked if he urged those who nominated him not to, jordan responded and of course email pops up, yes, i've been clear about that. he ended by saying we'll see what happens. chad, we are getting a pretty good idea right now what is happening. >> yeah, and jim jordan is

somebody in name a lot of people thought couldn't get the votes to be speaker, even though he was nominated yesterday, the precedent of the house you cannot withdraw your name. if he is ever able to get the votes or anybody else, i mean, it's anybody's game at this standpoint. we might have somebody come out of the woodwork who might be that consensus candidate. that's where you have to have those back room deals. so far those back room deals have not yet happened and that horse trading don't forget that in 2015 when kevin mccarthy withdrew his name for the speakership, i chased steve scalise down a stairwell in the longworth house office building asking if he was a speaker candidate, he said no. paul ryan the same thing. guess who was speaker two and a half weeks later, paul ryan. >> sandra: chad pergram, we will see you shortly. martha maccallum joining us. jump on in here as the vote continues now in the fourth

speaker vote. >> martha: only a few votes left, i'm watching the numbers to see if it breaks above 20, if byron donalds is able to chew into the votes that kevin mccarthy got yesterday is one of the big questions here. i just think when you watch one day you see jim jordan getting this piece of the pie, which is very narrow, but is big enough to block kevin mccarthy from becoming speaker and getting the gavel in his hand which he has wanted for a very long time and see the votes shift over from jim jordan over to byron donalds, obviously an up and coming member of the house of representatives and chip roy i think gave a pretty impassioned speech why he would like a shake-up and change at the top of the republican house conference. you have to wonder, obviously last night's wrangling did not work, did not budge votes. so now what does kevin mccarthy

do. they have tried the trump card just mentioned a moment ago, that has not worked to get him the support that he needs. so he's in a very tough spot right now, and they are going to have to make some decisions. when you think about the things he has wanted to put through, one of them was removing metal detectors from entrance to the house of representatives, that has already happened, sort of a symbolic thing, a sign of change from what nancy pelosi's leadership showed. dig down into some other policies like not having 87,000 new irs agents as one of the things they are pushing for, domestic energy regulations loosened up to start to regain our independence in the energy field. all of these things that really matter to voters, really matter to people across the country during all of this campaigning that they want to start to see enacted. and you see the frustration on the editorial pages at the "wall street journal," "washington post," and people are wondering what the heck is going on and would like to see more organization and leadership

here. you have to wonder politically which side is going to fall on, who are they going to blame for this chaos we are watching unfold on the house of the floor of representatives, guys. >> john: so martha, take a look at the votes here, if we get one more for mccarthy that will pretty much do it for today. byron donalds will be coming on in just a couple minutes. >> martha: that's a good booking. >> john: we actually did it yesterday, how about that? >> martha: that's good. >> john: he wanted to wait for the vote to be done before speaking with us. but clearly he's fallen 198 votes short of becoming the speaker and likely would not prevail even if this went into more votes. but we're at the point here where mccarthy did not lose any ground, did not gain any ground, and unless they can come up with something that would convince

another 16 members to vote for mccarthy, i guess 17, 16 members, he's not going to below normal the speaker and then they have to go for consensus candidate. marc thiessen is in the studio with me and thinks scalise might be the candidate, what are you hearing? >> martha: what i'm hearing from a lot of people they are not ready to look for a consensus candidate at this point but i think they have to be and you look at people like jim jordan and steve scalise who have thrown their support behind kevin mccarthy and that's going to be an interesting conversation. if, you know, if it comes to that, looks like it may, kevin mccarthy it seems is going to have to be the person who sort of breaks this log jam one way or the other, and does -- if it comes to the point he has to make the difficult decision he made in 2015 to step aside, then that is going to open the floodgates for some other people and i'm not sure based on what i'm hearing whether you will see

a consensus sort of move quickly to either one of those individuals but i do think that the embarrassment factor will start to kick in and the let's get moving motivation will force them to find a consensus candidate. so those are the names at the top of the list, but it's going to be a wide open discussion if kevin mccarthy decides he cannot get the votes and is nudged to step aside here. we don't know at this point, obviously. >> sandra: martha, if you were to zoom out from the moment we are watching right now and you recognize the fact, and you pointed this out many times yesterday afternoon as this was ongoing, that mccarthy spent so much time courting those in his conference who oppose him, made major concessions, and those efforts have yet to pay off, obviously, with what we are seeing play out here. so you have to ask yourself, why the party let it come to this point where this is playing out so publicly for the american

people right now. >> martha: this was never supposed to happen. republicans were promised a big wave, a red tsunami, everyone was told was growing as we got closer to the election and then there was a lot of, you know, covering you know what in the days that followed to explain why that didn't happen. and kevin mccarthy is an extremely hard worker. his life is largely his work, right. and he spent the last couple of years canvassing across the country in the days before the midterm election he was out in long island talking to jewish voters, trying to persuade them in some areas of long island where he felt there was a possible pick-up for his team. they did an extraordinary job in new york, a lot of people did not expect to see and $238 million, a record amount raised for house candidates on the gop side in those races. they looked for a diverse group of candidates across the country, they really, you know,

leveraged that in a huge way and the fact it did not provide him with a margin that was not going to be a problem was something that he did not anticipate and the party did not anticipate. so, that's how they find themselves in this really difficult spot right now. they worked for two solid years and raised millions and millions of dollars to avoid exactly what's happening right now, sandra. >> john: and martha, newt gingrinch was on our air and said that the party, for all intents and purposes or at least the gop conference in the house is held hostage by a very small group of people. there are some 201 -- there was one vote for present that was victoria sparks, and present just means i'm not voting either way. so mccarthy with 201, donalds with 20 and 1 present. means 200 some odd members of the house gop conference are being held hostage, according to

newt gingrinch, to this small group of people who are making demands that mccarthy says any leader would be crazy to go to, particularly the idea of one member can raise a motion to vacate the chair. and how do you go into leadership or do anything controversial if one person can lift up their hand and say i didn't like that, we need to start looking for a new speaker. but as mccarthy goes through vote after vote after vote and four now and on to a fifth, at what point does he become wounded and really won't be able to wrangle this side of the party that is in such, you know, stark opposition to him at this point. >> martha: already kind of has a very difficult scenario, you agreed five people could make that decision to vacate the chair, to propose a new speaker at any given time. so if he wins, if he pulls this out in the end he faces a very

untenable position and one that, you know, newt gingrinch as strong as he was as speaker of the house ended up falling to a similar sort of faction eventually. john boehner fell to a similar faction in some ways eventually. this is a very, very tricky job to get this support. look at the people in history who have dominated as speaker. nancy pelosi on the list, tip o'neill, sam raburn and newt gingrinch had very strong leadership and it's a high bar to get it and when you look at these 20 individuals, they are very dug in, they are an interesting collection of different kinds of politicians in many ways and they are a thorn in kevin mccarthy's side and the party's side at this moment as they continue to push for this. you have a lot of voices, including newt gingrinch and donald trump and others saying get your act together, let's get some of these things on your agenda done, put it on the

senate's desk, the president's desk and show people what we stand for. we are a long way from that point for the republicans. >> sandra: martha, we will see you shortly. >> john: i mentioned moments ago marc thiessen, he was in the studio with us talking about this. martha said that this group of lawmakers is a thorn in the side of kevin mccarthy. should he become speaker through some sort of compromise arrangement, what kind of thorn in his side will they be if he tries to govern? >> he would be basically sitting to a gun to his head the entire time if he took a step they disagreed with, and end his speakership. he's a hostage, essentially. if the red wave had arrived this would not be happening. joe biden is the most unpopular president in the history of

presidential polling yet put in the best first term performance since john f. kennedy after george bush and 9/11. it's because the voters looked at the candidates the republicans put forth and said no thanks. they rejected the republicans. and the faction of the republicans now holding the house hostage. if we had a 30 vote majority and there had been a red wave this wouldn't be happening today, because they would not need the five, now growing, faction of votes. so the irony is these people who are doing this are the faction of the republican party that was rejected by the voters in the poll and now they are exercising the power because of the small republican majority. >> sandra: mark, big endorsement by former president trump for mccarthy before the vote, how would you describe that influence? >> negligible. his influence is smaller and

smaller and a shrinking former president in terms of his influence in the gop. but you know, the question here is trump is sort of a side show to this. this -- the republican party has to move on beyond trump and they need to pick somebody who is going to lead the republican party in the house, that's the majority we have. and into the future. this group, their power has increased as a result of the weak performance in the election. they have the -- but their power is limited. they have the power to stop kevin mccarthy from becoming speaker if they hold their ground. the majority of the house is more moderate, they are conservative but not from this maga backward looking faction, so they have to come up with a consensus candidate behind it. it's not going to be jim jordan, it's probably not going to be byron donalds, we know, who knows how much support he has among the moderates, but

somebody else. maybe it could be steve scalise. he was just re-elected as the majority leader with a broad support from this faction and the moderates. it's got to be somebody, and maybe byron donalds moves up in the leadership and the chairs move around in the leadership, but if kevin mccarthy cannot put this away at some point we have to move on. >> john: so, perspective depends on where you sit. andy biggs tweeted out, kevin is o-four. time for him to hang up the cleats and let the house move forward without him at the helm. country over ego. now, the people who are supporting mccarthy would say exactly the same thing to biggs, that you are putting your ego over your country. >> i agree with that. i mean -- but the reality is they have this power, and if they stand their ground, kevin mccarthy is not going to be the speaker. he has to move them and win them

over, does not look like he's succeeding in doing, or the party has to move on and open it up and find somebody else who is going to -- who can win the majority of the caucus. these people are not going to pick the next speaker. they can stop mccarthy from winning it but not the ones who pick the next speaker. we'll have a say in it. but has to appeal to this group. >> sandra: if we turn our attention to the screen, kevin mccarthy and the conversations on the house floor noting that in front of the chamber gop whip rep-elect tom emmer is speaking at length with rep-elect byron donalds. so, these conversations are happening right now, marc, and we can all wonder what's taking place, what's being said, what trading is being done and when a

possible fifth speaker vote would happen. yesterday the second vote, they rolled right into the second vote. that may not be the case today. >> it may not. and kevin mccarthy said i've earned it, that's a fairly entitled statement. he's not entitled to the speakership of the house of representatives. and i don't know that he's earned it. again, republican party put in the worst performance of any party in the minority since j.f.k. so you know, if he had won a 20 or 30 seat majority, then, yeah, he could say he earned it. we don't have that. we have a very narrow majority and so he's not entitled to speakership, it's not about him. it's about advancing conservative ideas and the best speaker who can do that, to bring the whole caucus together. so if he can't do that, then at some point he has to step aside and make way for somebody else who can do that and bring the factions together. >> john: been looking at the responses and things on my

twitter feed and byron donalds is getting a lot of support from republicans out there. certainly if democrats take back the gavel in the house, they will make history with the first african american speaker. republicans get there ahead of them. >> start asking byron donalds what are some of his positions on. a large majority who supports continuing aid to ukraine. he started out being very supportive of aid to ukraine but during the campaign said that he was against it. so i want to know and a lot of republicans are going to want to know, where do you stand on the fight between tyranny and freedom in ukraine. i don't think he can get elected speaker -- he can't win over that majority if he's going to cut off aid. >> john: he's only been there two years. >> we don't know where he stands on a lot of issues. now interesting -- it starts getting interesting if mccarthy cannot lock this up. he has to explain where he's

going to lead the caucus, and other people come forward, but everyone is waiting to see whether mccarthy is -- >> john: and then it's april. >> exactly. >> sandra: we have been monitoring the white house, president biden was speaking a short time ago to see what perhaps the white house is saying about all of this. seizing on the moment as one of our producers is describing the situation on the gop side of the house floor right now in disarray, marc. so, anybody's guess how this proceeds, what happens next. but this is obviously pretty engaged conversation that is happening with kevin mccarthy right now, watching live on the house floor. >> yeah, very much so. what i worry about going forward is that if mccarthy were to exceed at this point, what we were talking about with john earlier, he has a gun to his head now. he's made so many concessions of the group, a faction of about five of the most extreme republicans in the house caucus who basically have veto power over anything that the house republican caucus does, and so you know, has he given up so

much, and would another speaker candidate who stepped in to replace him have to make same concessions to get the job. steve scalise said i'm not going to make the concessions. >> john: i don't know that they want concessions from scalise or jordan or donalds. they don't trust kevin mccarthy is the issue. >> maybe. so maybe another candidate who can -- you have to have the rules in place that allow you to enforce discipline on the caucus. at some point -- if this is the future of the next two years of the house where everything we try to do is held hostage by a small band of people, then this is going to be the most chaotic and failed house majority in the history of the country and we lose the house majority in two years. if this is -- if this is the model of the future for the next two years, we are in big trouble on the republican party. >> sandra: we are just getting

the latest note from chad pergram. things are worse for mccarthy, 20 gop'rs against mccarthy and in favor of donalds, but voting present was a big change from what we saw in the previous ballots. heading into all of this today, some clue that kevin mccarthy saw his path to victory here by more votes in the present g category, one but not enough. john, marc thiessen joining us in d.c. and our coverage will continue here. and byron donalds will be joining us, he wanted to wait for the vote to conclude on the house floor and the tally to take place, he'll run over to the camera there as soon as he is ready we'll have it for our viewers, john. >> john: looking forward to that just ahead. as we continue our coverage here on "america reports," we'll take

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>> john: back with more coverage of what's going on in the house and whether or not kevin mccarthy ever becomes speaker or whether it's somebody else or whether republicans manage to bobble this enough hakeem jeffries becomes the speaker. sandra, i was just talking to marc thiessen and talking about who moves first, the 20 or the 201, and there's some thinking that maybe it's people from the 201 that move first. >> sandra: and you might have answered that question differently during the first ballot but now four in it's not conventional thinking, let's just say that. >> john: yeah, so -- einstein's definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different

result. and with victoria sparks voting present, and love to ask why she did that, as opposed to vote for one or the other, mccarthy's slip fell more than yesterday, now 21 against him. byron donalds is hooked up and with us now. congressman-elect, great to talk to you and back on the program. you fell a few votes shy of becoming the next speaker of the house, but we hear that your name is going to be placed into nomination for the fifth ballot. what are your intentions here? because it seemed going into this you might be willing to vote for kevin mccarthy if you thought he was viable. do you believe he is no longer viable? >> i think the path is very difficult right now for kevin. but look, at the end of the day what i want to make sure we elect a speaker of the house and go on and accomplish the business the american people sent us here to do. we know the issues, we have a porous border, massively in

debt, purchasing power for the american families has been crippled, and we want to fix the problems. one of the core issues we have is washington is broken. the house does not function, and so we want to see a process where power is actually back to the members of congress to do the job to the people who sent them here to fix the issues ailing every american. now coming back to the speakership vote, my intention to make sure we get a speaker elected and start the process. may be me or not me but those are my intentions. >> sandra: you voted for mccarthy the first time around, yourself today. >> we had a brief conversation, i believe in keeping the conversations private. right now there's a lot of members on the floor, i'm sure all the cameras see it, you have members inactive dialogue right now as we speak. take a step back. the one thing that is necessary

for this body to function is active dialogue among the members and you are seeing it now on the house floor. that will only yield the best results for the american people overall. and so now what we are going to do, more meetings, more discussions and figure out a pathway for kevin to become speaker or anyone else to become speaker. that's the job that needs to be done. we want to see leadership actually reflects where the american people are and leadership is something that is earned here in the nation's capitol, not just given, and it's not an anti-kevin statement, that's an indictment of the political process here in washington, d.c. >> john: congressman you said washington, d.c. is broken. critics of the holdouts against kevin mccarthy are saying you are breaking it even further by not allowing kevin mccarthy, the speakership and the ability to begin governing, you are delaying, if not discrediting all of the work that the republican conference wants to get done in the two years that it has.

what do you say to that criticism? >> oh, i disagree with them. i think that's out of hand. that's a thought processes and points that want to continue with the way this place works and not in the best interest of all of the americans, whether they are republicans or democrats. and so i think it's ok to have a little bit of patience, only day two, the sun rose this morning, the sun will rise tomorrow in america, the american people are working and taking care of their families so we are going to get this business done on capitol hill and get to the job of investigation, securing our border, getting our spending under control, and the other priorities of the republican party. >> sandra: do you fear all this drama we are watching so publicly play out on capitol hill is taking away from the big win for your party in the midterm elections in the house and byron, stand by for just a second, the final tally coming in. >> total number of votes cast is 433 of which the honorable

hakeem jeffries of the state of new york has received 212. [cheering] the honorable kevin mccarthy of the state of california has received 201. [cheering] the honorable byron donalds of the state of florida has received 20. [applause] with one member-elect recorded

as present. no member-elect having received a majority of the whole number of votes cast, a speaker has not been elected. for what purpose does the gentleman from ohio seek recognition? >> madam speaker, i rise to nominate kevin mccarthy as speaker of the house. >> the gentleman is recognized. [applause] >> now why would i -- why would i as a conservative, as an army ranger, business guy, the first guy that the house freedom

caucus backed in a congressional race, why would i nominate kevin mccarthy to become the next speaker of the house? why would jim jordan? why would other conservatives like thomas massy, jim banks, kevin hern and others support kevin mccarthy as speaker of the house. you know, something in our nature as humans causes us to dehumanize others when we engage in conflict. dehumanizing others makes it easier to ascribe bad motives and engage in the fight but also makes it harder to understand one another. as actions push further disagreement, arguments tend to escalate rather than resolve. we are on the edge of a destructive argument today. i plead with all -- all of my republican colleagues, let

cooler more rational heads prevail. let us unite as republicans to elect the next speaker of the house. unlike democrats, nearly every republican at least campaigns on some form of smaller, more accountable government. once we get here the bipartisan consensus keeps growing a bigger, less accountable government. the american people know that the status quo is broken, that we become less free, less safe and more burdened by debt. the american people are sick and tired of it. and they keep sending us reinforcements. reinforcements that today help make up our small majority. but a majority is only a majority if we actually work together. now lots of people back home don't trust anyone in this town. perhaps we would be wise to listen to them and some wisdom

from ronald reagan. trust but verify. trust is a fragile condition and easily broken. as i've listened to my friends, 20 of whom have opposed kevin mccarthy as speaker of the house, and others, the root issue is this. they do not trust kevin mccarthy. what can heal that divide? right now there are a lot of colleagues that don't trust 20 or more of my fellow republicans. [applause] right now though we remain divided, a majority, an actual majority of the house freedom caucus members do support kevin mccarthy. this summer a unified house freedom caucus started the negotiations with a proposal for new rules. different way to govern that

empowers committees and regular members. we proposed a set of tools could be structured to make trust more verifiable and allow recourse if that trust is ever broken. following the election, kevin mccarthy engaged in that negotiation, he led the conference to adopt substantive reforms that will make our majority more effective. let me list some of them. andrew clyde's proposal to restore public access to the capitol, and another reduce the linkage between the nrcc and the steering committee proposal, a proposal to cap spending on spending bills, to limit leadership reports and engaging all members. a five-day notice for suspension votes. proposal for privileged resolutions. proposal for additional conference meetings ahead of key votes. proposal on stand alone appropriations biggs.

proposal limiting suspension waivers from committees. proposal to make co-sponsored amendments in order. affirm 72 hour publication of bills before calling for a recorded vote. and end to proxy voting. an end to remote participation in committee work by members of congress. the end to the gephart rule, major reform worked out with morgan griffin what we hope to call the griffin rule on single subject bills subject to germaneness points of order and amendment. diverse viewpoints on every committee. lastly, a church style commission was added to the judiciary committee focused on the abuses our big government has unjustly collaborated with big business and big tech to silence, persecute or even prosecute our fellow citizens. as thomas massey pointed out,

elon musk bought a crime scene. now that we know and the public knows, the question is what in the hell are we going to do about it? >> sandra: we'll get back to the house floor in just a moment. byron donalds is joining us. congressman, thank you very much for hanging on with us. to go back to my earlier questions, there is obviously great concern in the party this is taking away from the victory that just was flipping power in the house of representatives and also this largely puts the republican agenda on hold. you voted for mccarthy just yesterday, in the first go around here. you did not vote for him today, you voted for yourself after you were nominated. what has changed and why is mccarthy not the person to lead your party? >> i think right now you have an issue, a group of members, a smaller group of members who have disagreements on kevin mccarthy being speaker of the house. now, there is still many conversations being had amongst these members and other members of the conference to see if that pathway exists, henceway a fifth

ballot right now. the core of this, yes, successful in taking back the majority but still have to deal with the realities of governing here in washington and one-day or two-day delay, even three days does not stop us from being able to do the things we were elected to do. actually i'm quite confident after this delay everybody is going to be more than ready to get back to work. so it's important we go through this process and get it right so that when we go through the process of actually having the votes and the spending bills out of washington to better america for american people we are using every tool in the disposal to do that. >> john: let me ask you this, congressman. two questions. first of all, what can kevin mccarthy do to earn back the support of the majority of the 21 members now who have voted against him? this idea of one person being able to raise a motion to vacate the chair, i don't know how you can lead or govern with in a hanging over your head all the time.

so, what could -- >> actually, if i may, i actually disagree with that premise. the motion to vacate, this is inside baseball for a lot of the american people. >> john: that's what it's about. >> let me explain. it has been the rule in congress more than 100 years any member could do that. nancy pelosi got rid of that rule. as republicans are we saying we have to live under the rules of nancy pelosi, that's the only way to govern washington? >> john: he offered five, he offered five to vacate the chair, why is that not good enough? >> because again, as any member duly elected should have the ability to call the question. if you are leading our conference and really leading the house of representatives and you are doing that job, you shouldn't be concerned about the ability of one member to bring a motion. that should not be the concern, and that's something i have communicated directly to a lot of people. the motion of to vacate is something that is a simple tool available to members but it's not really used by members. only used twice in the last 100

years. it does speak more loudly to concerns about the ability to effectively lead the chamber if that's what the concern is. it shouldn't be a concern and this is the thing i want to make sure the american people understand. in any corporation you got, if the head guy or lady is not doing the job the board of directors can call a vote at any time. we all know this to be true. if it's good in business, it's definitely good here on capitol hill. >> sandra: is this a referendum on mccarthy's performance in the midterm elections? if we had seen the red wave and the gop gain a massive majority in the house would we be here today? >> probably not. i think that would have changed the dynamics of how you count votes. let be very clear. republican voters have not been happy with party leadership across the board. you saw the senate, mcdaniel is having a challenge who is the next head of the rnc and a

challenge here in the house of representatives. leadership challenges are a good thing for the party and good thing for america. the days of just power by acclimation, those days are over. it needs to be earned and people need to understand and be communicated effectively. >> john: we see congresswoman boebert on the floor right now, i imagine she is singing your praises at the moment as she puts your name into nomination. the second question i had for you there when we started talking about vacating the chair is ok, if not mccarthy, then who? is it you, is it jordan, is it scalise who has so far really kind of been quiet through this whole thing? >> what i want to say right now is we are going to go back in and leave you after this question. we are going to go back in and have this round of ballots and have more conversations, one thing i can tell you is nobody is at 218 votes right now, nobody. we are going to get this figured out and get this business done.

every republican up here on capitol hill is committed to getting to the agenda we all campaigned for last november. >> sandra: so we are going to let you go there, back to the house floor. do you see a path forward for kevin mccarthy quick? >> i think it's possible but a lot of work that needs to be done. >> sandra: and yourself. >> less likely, but it's d.c., you never know what happens up here. >> sandra: ok, appreciate you joining us. thanks for your time, sir. >> john: it's quite possible, sandra, this could be like an political convention in the past, somebody goes in with a head of steam but cannot get to the threshold so go in the back room filled with cigar smoke and cutting deals and somebody else becomes the presidential nominee. i'm wondering if we could get into a situation like this. >> sandra: and here we are rolling into the fifth ballot. i don't know if anybody predicted this is the case, a remarkable moment, chad pergram has said time and time again we

have not been here before. >> john: mark thiessen, where do you see it going? >> it's fascinating. conventions of the past, conventions are the engineered things with the nominee is decided and all this activity. but used to be an actual convention, people would choose and people would contest and you would go into the convention without knowing who -- that's what we are seeing on the house floor, it's really fascinating because if kevin mccarthy can't get the votes then there is going to be a real contest. wide open contest that anybody could emerge to win, and it's as a political observer, it's just fascinating. >> sandra: as a political observer, it's fascinating. and people at home glued to the television agree, mccarthy 201, it was read during the conversation with byron donalds, jeffries 212, more than mccarthy, and there is our guest

back on the house floor. 20 votes in the other category, byron donalds and voting present, one. that was the difference today. quite remarkable, marc. a quick thought before we head to a quick break. >> what's worrisome to me, the reason why republicans have such a small majority, there was a group of republicans less focused on winning the majority than they were on purging rinos, and seems like they are in charge of the asylum right now. >> john: they call them the swampers or rinos, but byron donalds back in the house again as he listens to lauren boebert put his name into nomination. see where it goes from here. maybe mccarthy's support will slip even further. marc, appreciate it. >> sandra: this is happening live on the house floor, we'll get right back in there in just a moment. john, i believe we will take a quick break because we are moving now into a fifth ballot on capitol hill.

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>> sandra: fox news alert, a live look on capitol hill as our coverage of the election for speaker continues and john, it has not been without drama. and that drama continues as we now move into a fifth ballot on capitol hill. >> john: the master of understatement there, sandra. it has been fascinating to watch. republicans are supporting kevin mccarthy might use a different worse than fascinating, but for those of us at home to see it go on and on and on is something we have not seen in 100 years and we may have to go back more than 150 years to find a comparable moment