paul-paul and mags, that's when we buried them. we didn't bury them when we had the service on friday. because i don't think they were done -- that's when we buried them along with my dad. on sunday. >> and alec, what did you do the following week, that monday, tuesday, wednesday? >> um, starting when now? >> so the day after your dad's funeral. >> all right, monday, um, i went -- i went to grandma and papa ts in sommerville. >> where did you stay monday night? >> we stayed at greenfield

sunday night, so we woke up at greenfield on monday. >> so sunday night with the same family members, your brother, brooklyn, buster and -- >> that's right. >> and liz. >> liz and her mom and dad and -- >> then you went to sommerville with who? >> i believe i went to sommerville myself, but in the car by myself. i can't remember if buster rode together, i think we had separate cars. probably did ride together -- i don't know, i went to sommerville and buster was in sommerville with me, with grandma and papa t. >> and sommerville is where maggie's parents lived? >> that's right. maggie's mom and dad, maggie's mom is grandma, and dad is papa t. >> did you stay with them for a

few days in sommerville? >> i stayed with them -- in sommerville, yes, we stayed in sommerville monday night, tuesday night, wednesday night, and then we went to greenwall. >> ok. and what was in greenville? >> my niece. that was -- she was having a baby, and maggie had just been -- she had just been so

excited. so -- she was just so proud of those girls. she was so excited about the baby. and so the baby being born just came such a -- such a big deal to me. >> was the baby born? >> yeah, yep. baby was born and beautiful a little baby girl. beautiful little mom. >> ok. >> and then did you go up to the lake after that? >> we did. well, i mean, we stayed -- this lake kiwi that you heard about, close to greenville, we went up there because, you know, and

when she had the baby, i want to say the baby might have gotten born shortly after we got there, like thursday, but i think it was saturday before we could go and see them and see my niece and see the baby, so, you know, i mean, that's where we went was to lake kiawi, but they live in greenville. >> on the morning of june 16th, i think that was a wednesday, i think that's a wednesday, where did you wake up? >> sommerville. >> did you ever go to alameda on that day? >> on wednesday? >> yes, sir. >> i don't believe so. >> did you go to alameda at 6:30

in the morning on -- >> i know for a fact that i didn't go to alameda at 6:30 in the morning. i was in sommerville. i didn't go to alameda at any point early in the morning. i was in sommerville, and i'm not positive about this, but i know -- i know they did a -- i know in some of those records they have it was some time before i left sommerville. >> okay. >> did you -- did you ever take, during that week, let's just start with that week follow your dad's funeral, did you ever take a tarp into the house at alameda? a tarp, a blue tarp. >> the week following my dad's funeral? >> yes, sir. >> no, i did not.

>> there's been, i don't know where it is in the boxes, but this blue rain jacket. have you ever seen that before? >> never seen it before, never touched it, and don't know anything about it. >> ok. did you -- did you ever remember taking a tarp at any point in time over to the house at alameda? >> i don't remember it, i don't remember taking a tarp over there. but shelly's got something in her mind about that and may have been some point, but i certainly don't remember it and certainly wasn't any time around my dad's funeral. or the weeks following. >> i think we talked briefly

about -- about your recollection of times and i just want to play from state's exhibit 517, which is the august 11th interview, starting at 5:52, if you could pull that clip up and i want you to listen to this. >> ok. tell me again what it is. >> it's august 11th interview, starting at 5:52. can you go to five minutes and 52 seconds.

>> who was at your house when you left and what time did you go to the office? >> we had been -- >> who was at your house when you left and what time did you go to the office? >> we had been to a ball game that weekend, i don't remember exactly what time it would have been -- somewhere between 8:30 and 9:30, probably. 10:00 maybe at the latest. >> ok. >> something like that. >> alec, on the tape were you being asked when you went to work on the 7th? >> yes. >> and you said 8:30 to 9:30 in

the morning. >> and 10:00 at the latest. >> is that correct? >> no, it wasn't. >> now that you have seen all the records, what does it look like what time you went to work on the 7th? >> a little after noon. >> all right. if we'll go to the state's exhibit 243, which is the june 10th interview. >> mr. griffin on that same date, also, if you play that thing, and i don't know if it's right then, i also told them the best way to see exactly when i went in that door is to go and get my information from my law firm and i told them that, you know, we have a, you know how things are electronic now, you don't have a key, you have a key card and you have a key card in your wallet, and so when you use it it creates like all this other stuff, a digital footprint

and i've told david owens he could go get it from my office. >> and was that a common response of yours when you were asked about specific times that you would give 'em your best estimate but you would point them to where they could find the most accurate data? >> yes, sir. >> you did that more than once? >> yes, sir. >> okay. so if we have the june 10th interview, state exhibit 243 and doug, 9:59, and here you are asked when did paul arrive at moselle. >> roughly what time in the afternoon. >> you know, i would think it would be somewhere in the 5:00 range, a little bit -- it was broad daylight when we were -- it wasn't dusk, dark or late, you know, and we rode, you know, we just rode around. we rode around. >> did you tell 'em on june 10th that paul got there at 5:00 time

period? >> yes, sir. obviously did. >> and was that incorrect? >> yes, sir, it was incorrect. >> and what time did you, looking at the record now, what time did it look like paul actually got there? >> in looking at the records, it's clear that he got there some time around 7:00. >> at some point in time you have a conversation with shelly smith about how long you were over at alameda on the night of june 7th, do you remember? >> i don't distinctly remember having a conversation with her about how long i was over there, but i know that i told shelly smith that sled was gonna come and talk to her and that i would appreciate it if she would talk to them and that she just needed to tell 'em the truth.

>> and did you take extra care not to talk to people you knew sled would be talking to? >> absolutely. >> and why is that? >> after this boat wreck that you've heard so much talk about in this courtroom, there were social media, newspaper, i mean, it went deeper than that. but i mean, there were so many -- so much talk about how i, you know, fixed witnesses and structured the investigation, things that were totally false, that were absolutely baseless, but it was said repeatedly, repeatedly, and it was reported repeatedly how i'd done this and with this witness and influenced this police officer and all these things so i wasn't taking

any chances. >> i want to ask you about, you can take that down, doug, thank you. ask you about the august 11th interview with david owen at the sled office in i think here in walterboro. >> august 11th, absolutely. >> had you requested that meeting? >> i had been requesting -- what i had really been requesting is some information, i had been begging david owens to come meet with me and specifically -- i wanted grandma and papa t, there were so many questions that i couldn't answer and i had been

begging him to meet with me and to meet with grandma and papa t. i had been begging him for weeks and weeks. >> and did -- when you went into the meeting on august 11th, did you think that's what it was for, to give you an update? >> yes. >> ok. and at the conclusion of the meeting, they let you know that you are their prime suspect? >> objection, your honor. that's not what was said. facts not in evidence. >> mr. griffin? >> i'll rephrase it. by the conclusion of the meeting did they make it known to you that you were suspect?

>> oh, there's no question about that. absolutely. now, he used a lot of, i mean you hear talk about how i'm in this circle and he can't get me out, and this and that, but there's no doubt in my mind. there was no question in my mind what was going on. >> and the -- and during that meeting did they show you the snapchat video of you trying to stand up the fruit tree? >> yes. >> and were you questioned about what clothing you were wearing? >> and i can't remember this. i can't remember if he showed me the whole video or he showed me a picture of it, but i was definitely showed that information. i was definitely shown those clothes in the meeting august 11th. >> what clothes were you wearing? >> the same ones you see in -- >> do you remember what kind of

pants? >> khaki pants. >> what kind of shirt? >> button down -- short sleeve button down, i call it a dress shirt, short sleeve button down dress shirt. >> like this, but it was colored. blue, blue with some blue stripes. >> and were you questioned about when you changed out of those clothes? >> i was. >> and did you have a follow-up -- did you have a conversation after that meeting with sled about what you were wearing that day? >> absolutely. >> and what was the purpose of the conversation with blanca? >> they made an issue about that in that meeting, and i asked blanca about those clothes that i had on earlier that day.

>> did you ask her specifically about the blue shirt? >> i asked her specifically about all the clothes. >> okay. >> what i asked blanca about specifically was did she remember getting my clothes after she came back, when she came back to moselle, does she remember getting my clothes. specifically what i asked her. >> i see. and why were you asking her those questions? >> because on august the 11th they had made an issue about me wearing, still wearing those clothes, not having changed clothes when i was in that snapchat video. so that's why i went to blanca. >> did they ever ask you on august the 11th when -- did they ask you for those clothes, can you produce the clothes, did they ask you that? >> no, they didn't. >> have they ever asked you for those clothes?

>> no. as far as my understanding goes, my clothes were never an issue in this case, until y'all figured out as my lawyers, figured out that there was no blood splatter on me. >> sir. >> objection, your honor. >> basis of the objection? >> 401, 402 and beyond, and speculation, your honor. >> mr. griffin. >> it's a matter of public record. it's a matter of public record. >> what is? >> the issues with the shirt and the blood test. >> matter of public record. >> filed in this case, yes, sir. >> the objection is overruled. >> i'm well aware my clothes never became an issue in this case until my lawyers proved that this blood splatter that

they said i had on my shirt from my wife and my son was a lie. and that there was no blood on my shirt. and once they found the documents and they proved that that was a lie, all of a sudden the clothes i was wearing back on that day became an issue. and that's in the weeks leading up to this trial. >> now, alec, after the -- maggie and paul were murdered on june 7th and 8th, where did you stay and where did you keep clothes? >> i -- say that again, please. >> where were you staying overnight -- let me ask you this. did you ever spend another night in moselle after june 7th? >> never spent another night at

moselle. >> why not? >> i couldn't. didn't want to. >> ok. where were you staying -- we talked about the days and weeks, the week afterwards, but where were you staying? when you got back from the lake and greenville? >> i stayed -- when i got back from greenville, so that would be the -- that would be, so the first week up until my dad's funeral, then -- all right, so that would be the second week -- after -- i know bus and i, stayed with grandma and papa t

as much as i could, you know. i stayed with -- i stayed with my brother randy a lot. i stayed with my brother john a lot. bus and i stayed at edisto a little bit, but either with my brother randy and his wife christie or i stayed with my brother john and his wife lizzie, and at that time buster was -- buster worked for wild wing at that time and they had been so kind to him and gave him -- they let him be off just for -- ridiculous amount of

time, they were so good to him, so he stayed with me. when he had to go back to work he would stay at my brother john and lizzie's because it was close. i would stay with randy and christie in hampton, when buster was there go to john and lizzie's when buster was there, and sometimes when buster wasn't there, but -- i was, johnny parker, one of my partners had a guest house, his mother-in-law had lived in when she was sick, that's really -- it's right at the foot of randy's -- it's 100 yards, 70 yards from randy's house, and i was gonna move into -- i was gonna move into that house until we figured out

where i could live. so i had clothes there, i had clothes at randy's, i had clothes at john marvin's, i had clothes at chi chessy, i think you heard buster talk about like where we went to the river and i had clothes there, i will clothes in sommerville, and i still had clothes at moselle. >> so your clothes -- [inaudible] >> yes, sir. >> last question. >> no -- so were your clothes spread out, a lot of different places? >> yes. >> all right. >> thank you. >> we'll break for lunch and return at, in an hour and 15 minutes.

>> john: compelling testimony in the alec murdaugh trial in a south carolina courtroom as alec murdaugh takes the stand in his own defense, trying to inject enough doubt in the juror's minds they will not convict him for the murders of his wife and son paul. we are here as we begin "america reports" a little bit late during this lunch break, and jacqui heinrich is with us today. >> jacqui: we certainly learned a lot in that testimony. heard murdaugh admit it's his voice on the recording at the kennels, lied about his alibi to investigators, he blamed his drug addiction for that, but certainly a lot of new details. i want to play one sound bite that really stood out when he was asked if he killed his wife and son. let's take a listen to sot number 1. >> mr. murdaugh, did you take this gun or any gun like it and blow your son's brains out on

june 7th or any day or any time? >> no, i did not. me and my -- my boy's laying face down and he's done the way he's done, the head was the way his head was -- i could see his -- i could see his brain laying on the sidewalk. i didn't know what to do. >> john: it was quite a day of testimony, mercedes is with us, she's been watching it along with us and obviously he's trying to inject a sense of humanity into himself to convince the jurors that he was not capable of a crime such as this. the issue of how much emotion did he show the night of, was it appropriate, etc., etc., but i was stunned this morning when his defense team i guess feeling they were caught between a rock and a hard place had him acknowledge the voice on the video recording was his and he lied to investigators. >> it was inescapable, john. that's part of the issue, was he had been telling law enforcement

officials that he was nowhere near the kennel. the most devastating evidence against him was exactly that. the video where you can hear his voice clearly and there were several witnesses that identified alex murdaugh's voice on the snapchat film they had shown during the prosecution so they had to embrace it. offer an explanation. and frankly, it is a very risky proposition. but it was inescapable, he couldn't do anything else other than to say i'm going to have to blame the fact i was an addict and not thinking clearly and i obviously didn't tell the truth to law enforcement. frankly, the many trials i've been at, it's very risky and they say you lied to law enforcement, what else are you lying about. >> jacqui: did you find him to be credible, he went into a lot of detail what seemed like unimportant stuff. bubba and the chicken, but asked why he was speeding home, he didn't give a lot of

explanation, just i drove the way i drove. how did he come off to you? >> well, pretty rehearsed. it was interesting because i was watching when his emotion being too the peak. it peaked when he talked about the 911 call, it was very strategic of the defense attorneys to play that 911 call because you could hear his emotion at the time he called 911, but what i listened to is how he shifted from being hysterical, upset and shifted to completely calm, and interjecting that paul had threats against him and that i should have known what would happen, and if he was the killer, interjecting the alternate theory so he can hide behind it. interesting watching him go through peaks of emotions and the indignance whether he shot

and killed his son, i didn't, and then broke out in tears. you have -- and look and feel rehearsed and the peaks and valleys in such strategic points of his testimony, it gives off the feeling it's very well rehearsed. >> john: mercedes, you said a risk for the defense to go down the road yes i lied to investigators, i was at the kennels that night but a risk to take the stand at all. how many times in a murder trial do you see the defendant go up on the stand in their own defense because the prosecution can, i mean, take them apart piece by piece. >> every single defense attorney will tell you the most critical decision in any criminal trial is whether or not the client should take the stand. it is fraught with so many dangerous points, exactly to your point, especially when you are talking about a blistering cross examination, the many ways

that he could be cross examined and if he's going to take the stand and say i lied, i'm not entirely sure who was driving the train here. it's probably best and frankly, we are monday night quarterbacking here, but may have been just alex murdaugh say i'm a trial attorney, i'm very effective in communicating with juries, i am fighting for my life, i need to tell my story and if there are inconsistency, it can't be just hiding behind the fact the prosecution has burden of proof, they need to hear it from me. and very dangerous, and looking at the way he testified, a risk probably not well taken. >> jacqui: some legal experts said maybe the only chance of winning he had would be to testify. what do you think was achieved on each side for the prosecution, for the defense, coming out of hearing his testimony on the stand? >> so great question, jacqui. so the prosecution and the

snapchat video we talked about, the fact at least what he had told law enforcement, he had touched both paul and maggie yesterday there was no blood residue whatsoever, the fact that they found the crumpled raincoat that was filled with gun rescue crumpled up in his mother's home, that is obviously another devastating point that the prosecution is definitely exploited during their case. and the changing -- the changes that he made with respect to his story. now flip it over to the defense, now they have to infuse some explanation. they are going to emphasize how close this family was, that there really isn't any motive for alec murdaugh to have killed both paul and maggie, not like there is some life insurance benefit that he'll draw from their deaths. and theory is a little odd, the theory the prosecution has is alex murdaugh killed both maggie and paul to deflect attention he had on the financial crimes that

were sort of bubbling up in the civil case against paul stemming up from that boating accident. it just doesn't -- it doesn't fly necessarily because sure, jurors always want to understand what are the motivations behind a criminal act. and they certainly want to have a theory behind it, and the defense is going to do this, the theory he killed both paul and maggie somehow to garner sympathy and the financial crimes won't be prosecuted, it sounds unrealistic. but i don't frankly right now just with his testimony alone, it fell a little flat. it was sounding very rehearsed. all of the points of the defense were trying to make to try to deflect the overwhelming evidence against him. we'll have to see how it goes. but it wasn't frankly, if i were the defense attorney, i probably would have told mr. murdaugh to stand down and let us just fight over the burden of proof.

probably would have done a little better. >> john: i thought it was interesting the way he tried to weave for the jury a tale of how close he was to paul, always referred to him as paw-paw, his nickname, talked about the things they did together, how close they were, how much fun they had together. trying to signal to at least one juror, look, i was so close with my son and there he is standing beside him in that family photo, buster is on the other side of this photo, to signal to at least one juror to say there is no way as a father i could have done this because paul and i had a very loving relationship. do you think he sold that part of it? >> sure. to an extent. frankly, a lot of jurors will tell you, especially when they have infanticide type of cases where a parent has killed their child, they really grapple with that, especially because it is such a horrible crime to have killed your own child. so already there's this inherent

conflict that jurors feel as to whether or not this individual could have possibly done such a heinous crime killing their own child, so definitely did strike some points there, just emphasizing how close they were. >> john: mercedes -- >> we have to see how it plays off. problematic. >> john: didn't mean to cut you off but we have a breaking news event. stick with us through the lunch break and back to you on the other side. appreciate it. >> jacqui: turning now to east palestine, ohio, hearing from ntsb investigators, preliminary findings what caused the train derailment. take a listen. >> there are other detectors as well, in addition to hot box, acoustic detectors to detect noisy bearings, another indication of a failure. >> no investigation in which the hot box was part of the chain? >> at least not in the last

decade. >> blare miller, talked about testing of the equipment, whether it's in texas or here. how important, how key will that be in your investigation? >> the question is how important the testing of the different components that we have identified for further evaluation, how key that is to our investigation, incredibly key. we want to see what caused that wheel bearing to fail and then we want to see how those top fittings performed on the vinyl chloride tank cars. so that -- that will be key to our -- those will be key to our investigation. >> washington post. question on -- i saw some report this morning that 95° difference between the bearings on each side of the train is a common threshold. looks that at 115, and potentially greater than 95°

difference at the second detector. >> it's a measurement of the different sides of the train. so the different wheel bearings, and it's the difference between the two, which norfolk southern sets at greater than 115. so the 103 would not have been critical for them. >> is norfolk southern out of the ordinary at 115 rather than 95? >> that's what we have to look at. again, each railroad sets a different threshold, and canada report from 2013, transport canada notes the differences between how canadian pacific and canadian national designate their thresholds and designate where wayside detectors are. >> i'm so sorry, could you maybe

paint a picture for us, is this a box, infrared box on the side of the tracks the train goes by? i'm trying to visualize how exactly this works, and i'm picturing a box with an infrared scanner that is reading the under carriage of the train. is that accurate? >> yeah, it actually points up, i will let our experts. >> that's essentially what it is. that's essentially what it is. in this case it was down on the ground pointing up. >> the train goes over the top of it. >> over the top of it. and some of these wayside detectors, not here, a shed the train drives through, which protects everything from the elements, but there are a number of different types of detectors, again, it's something that's not regulated. >> is it using an infrared beam or help me make sure we are using the right language here. >> that's my understanding is

it's infrared-based. an yes. then over here. >> thanks for doing this. can you speak to whether or not there's been any determining whether you can say at this point whether there was any wrongdoing on norfolk southern part? >> you know, the question is was there any wrongdoing on norfolk southern's part. we have to evaluate that during our analysis. once we have all the facts we will look at the analysis. i think, or our own analysis. >> john: jump out of this, as the national transportation safety board releases a preliminary inquiry into the horrific train derailment on february 3rd, and looks like, jacqui, placing the blame on a defective bearing on the 23rd car on that 150 car long, almost two mile long train that finally failed and the axle seized up

and probably broke off and the train came off the tracks. >> jacqui: i think a lot more questions on these track sensors, and the wayside detector and whether norfolk southern in fact has, we know they have a policy according to reports that allows the crews to ignore audible signs of problems there, don't know for what reason, and don't know if that was a piece of this here. we are obviously going to have to hear from the ntsb, they refused to answer that question, are they to claim. we have to figure that out in our analysis. a lot of questions about the track sensors and whether that safety mechanism is safe enough. >> john: the track sensor they suggest is an infrared beam constantly -- not constantly, every few miles, monitors the conditions of the wheels and the bearings and the axles. when this crossed mile marker 79.9, almost mile marker 80, that system which is known as a wayside defect detector detected

an anomaly in the 23rd car. ten miles later, the next waypoint, the temperature was going up even more and then 20 miles after that, the temperature was so hot it was in the final stages of failure. that's when a signal went to the train engineer to hit the brakes and stop this thing, too late. the time the train came to a stop it had derailed and looked like they didn't even know it. mike tobin on the ground in east palestine, ohio, watching it and talking to the folks on the ground. what do we make what the ntsb has said so far, mike. >> it was pretty interesting. it's a pretty fiery comments, 100% preventable, no accidents, everything is part of the mechanism and but stopped short of saying it was the fault of the crew or of norfolk southern. and indication through that report that there was nothing wrong with the tracks.

so, this is a preliminary report. they say there are no accidents, this was preventable. yet unwilling to point the finger of blame. but clearly this investigation is focusing on the wheel bearings of that car number 23. as you notice, one point it heats up a little bit beyond the ambient temperature and then it heats up dramatically to the point it's critical and the point of failure. so, that is where this is going to go. as far as the people in this town, of course, their major concern is what is left behind, what is in the ground water. is it safe and what's going to happen to the real estate prices of the people who live closer to that. they are a bit frustrated with all of the resources, i guess all the leaders who have been involved in this process, and they are also frustrated with the media coming to the town, they want to get back to safe, clean, small town living, john. >> jacqui: mike, jacqui heinrich here. have you heard anything i think

the press conference before we jumped in about norfolk southern itself. in october, the company, also, according to a report, directed a train to keep moving with an overheated wheel that caused it to derail in sandusky, ohio. did any other derailments come up? >> i didn't hear that. i was involved in some other stuff at the beginning of the press conference, i didn't hear it myself, i'm sorry. >> jacqui: mike tobin, thank you for watching, we'll watch and listen. >> john: jason and richard, fox news contributors, ntsb, gentlemen, preliminary cause, looks like a failed wheel bearing caused the train to derail and then we saw the ensuing disaster after that. it took 20 days for the transportation secretary, pete buttigieg to come out there and

acknowledged he probably should have gotten there earlier. richard, was this a big faux pas on the part of mayor pete? >> listen, i think a faux pas is an understatement. even in the press conference you heard earlier this morning, you heard the secretary of transportation say he regrets not getting there earlier, and i do think that it's also sad that you have not seen the president of the united states there. i understand when the president goes into an area like this, it draws resources away but i think in this moment what this -- what the people in east palestine need is a consoler in chief, joe biden is good at doing. absence is notable. but pointing out from the report, 100% preventable, that's the part we have to harp on. these folks did not have to go through this and in 2017, the government repealed a law that would have put braking systems in place to stop it from happening automatically. a larger conversation of how we are keeping the country safe,

and what regulations we need to put in place to make sure that we keep another east palestine from happening. >> john: jason, it's very convenient for people to look back on the last administration and say they repealed a rule that would have put an advanced braking system on these trains, which if i'm not mistaken, triggered all of the brakes on all of the hazardous chemical cars to go at the same time rather than sequentially. but the railroads and railroad experts say increased safety from that is incremental, would that have prevented this. this was a wheel bearing that went, it wasn't a failure of a braking system. >> i'm glad the ntsb is on the scene and doing this. this is why there should be further congressional hearings to figure these types of things out and that should happen. other big issues at play, like who decided and why did they decide to burn these types of

chemicals and put this plume into the air, and the confusion that still goes on. when you have, you know, the ohio department of natural resources saying some 3500 dead fish and frogs and yet the epa administrator going out there and saying oh, everything's fine, let's all drink the water, and you know, here is -- cheers, have a drink of water. those types of things don't equate and don't come together, so there's a lot to learn there, and i agreed with richard, the officials in the federal government should have been there quicker, not near the end of week three. >> john: the preliminary findings, a bearing failure that took place over the course of at least 30 miles, and jacqui heinrich raises the point the norfolk southern rules of engagement, if you will, mechanical problems, if it looks like it's not too bad you can continue on. but had the train been stopped when the anomaly was first picked up at the first wayside

defect detector, this all would have been avoided. so is this a matter of -- a matter of safety in terms of the ntsb and legislation or is this a matter of a railroad company looking at a potential problem here and acting on it immediately? >> i think the answer is both, john. i think one, knowing this was preventable and that norfolk southern did not do what they could to stop it from happening is the first problem. and the second problem is, to jason's point, where is the congress, where is the administration and to go even further, where is the governor in this moment. not only do you have the epa secretary saying this, the governor said me and my wife and grandchildren would drink this water. and that's happening, you see the fish floating upside down and dead frogs. the people in east palestine are saying you say one thing and see something else, and elected officials are trying to reassure confidence but the evidence

points to something else and people get concern and lose trust of government. >> john: the pictures on the screen, the vinyl chloride ignited to burn it off after they dug a trench and then breached the tanks. governor mike dewine, a republican, described that as the best of two bad scenarios. either do that or potentially the tanks exploded. so i don't want to say it was a joint decision, but dewine is saying this was something it looked like they had to do in that moment. >> well, again, you have to have further investigation. you know, i'm not a toxicologist, i'm not able to decipher what's going on there but why we have federal expertise, you know. this is why pay billions of dollars to have federal government expertise to help the governor who does not develop all the sources themselves. look at flint, michigan, what happened with the flint water

situation. you know, it's a lot for the epa administrator and say trust the government. and in flint, michigan, it's still a problem, still boiling water in flint, michigan. so don't tell me to just trust the government, there is a lot more here. >> john: and a lot more to learn as the ntsb continues the investigation and what the secretary of transportation does when he gets back to d.c. >> j >> j >> jacqui: alex murdaugh testified he did not kill his wife and son but did say he lied about his alibi. the trial is set to resume shortly. we'll go back to it after the break. car loans can be expensive and the payments high. consolidate that car loan into a newday home loan and save hundreds every month.

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>> john: we see some tape from earlier today of alec murdaugh on the stand in his own defense, trying to convince the jury that while he may have lied about literally everything else, he's telling the truth when he says he did not kill his wife and son. trial expected to resume 50 minutes from now, we'll pick up testimony when it does. in the meantime, the u.s. will

quadruple the number of american troops in taiwan to counter the growing threat from china, this as beijing and moscow continue to strengthen their ties. u.s. also considering release of intelligence that could show china's plan to supply russian forces in ukraine. and concern about our ability to keep up with china on the sea. secretary of the navy says the u.s. needs to build up the fleet. we have the vice president of national security and foreign policy at the heritage foundation. >> not after all that news. >> john: a lot of news there. so, congress has approved $113 billion in aid to ukraine, which is more than russia's annual defense budget. yet no clearly defined goal from the united states as to how things should end in ukraine. >> i got to say, if you look at all the money we have spent over the year on nato to do what nato is there for, to keep europe stable as a partner for the

united states, this money that we just spent in terms of limiting the future threat from russia, that's a bargain basement price. for everything, and to be in nato all those decades. russia's conventional forces, i don't think they are going to be invading anybody any time soon and every day putin fights he's weaker than the day before. i think it's money well spent to the point not only the future gains to the u.s. because of the decreased requirement for the u.s. presence in europe, the russian presence will not be there for at least half a decade, the money we save will be impressive. >> jacqui: sending troops to taiwan, they said it was in the works for months, not because of the spy balloon or china bucking warnings not to get too close to russia, they have a relationship

reaching new frontiers amid warnings not to provide material aid. the fact it was in the works for a long time, what does that tell you about what the public doesn't know about the threat level, the threat environment involving china and possibly russia. >> take them at their word, being in the military 25 years, you don't do it in five minutes, timing of the announcement is interesting. they chose to announce it now, i think is trying to send a signal. so we should be clear. if there's a military threat to china, it's not relevant. what is significant, the taiwanese want them and for one reason, because they looked at ukraine and said dude, the first thing you need to be able to do is defend yourself if you want the calvary to come to your aid. so taiwanese are more serious in terms of their own defense. it's good for us in terms of burden sharing. it's positive. do we know everything we are doing in coordination with the

taiwanese, probably not. taiwan is important to the united states, not for chips or democracy, but china could control. >> john: idea of china supplying lethal weapons to russia is not playing well to the pentagon, and deputy secretary saying there will certainly be consequences for china should they deepen the relationship with russia, miscalculation of china, too, to provide lethal aid to russia. we are already in a proxy war with russia and ukraine. >> i don't think it's a proxy war, we are paying for somebody to defend themselves. untrained russian soldiers would die with chinese equipment instead of russian equipment. either china or russia better off, i don't know. >> john: thanks for hanging with us. appreciate it. >> jacqui: back to the murdaugh

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to pay off your high-rate credit cards. then, pay off your car loan. and then take the cash left over and put it in the bank for the financial security that every veteran deserves. >> john: begin at 2:00 with the unintended consequences of going soft on crime. a community fed up and furious and now st. louis's top prosecutor out of a job. welcome back as "america reports" rolls into hour two. i'm john roberts, nice to spend thursday with you. >> jacqui: good to be with you, john. jacqui heinrich in for sandra smith. kim gardner forced out after facing an ultimatum after she was accused of turning a blind eye on a ticking time bomb career criminal set free on bond and he caused a crash that left a teenager fighting to survive. ie