do you remember looking tony satterfield in the eye and lying to him? >> i remember lying to tony satterfield and i remember looking him in the eye on many occasions. >> and lying to him? >> yeah. >> lying to his family? >> i lied to his family. i don't know if i did it in person but i know i had phone conversations with them where i lied to them. >> okay. let's talk a little bit about the pills if we can. >> okay. >> and you've already testified, as have other people, that you were still able to function as a lawyer over the years despite the pills that you were using. is that correct? >> yes, sir. >> and you were able of course during this period of time to

engage in these relatively complicated thefts that increased over the years that we've just talked about despite the pill usage, is that correct? >> i was. i was. >> all right. and you were also able to, during this time period, convince your staff that nothing was amiss with all of these exhibits, despite your pill usage. >> most of those didn't require convincing my staff, but just so we're on the same page again, i acknowledge that i certainly allowed them to be misled. i certainly allowed them to do things that i shouldn't have done on my behalf knowing that

they trusted me. >> how many pills were you using a day? >> depends on a number of items. most importantly how strong the pill was. >> let's talk about -- let's start maybe in january of 2021 and move forward. can you describe to the jury what your daily pill intake was like? >> i think at that time most of what i was purchasing was 30 milligram pills, instant release oxycodone. probably mixed in with some oxycontin which was made of ox owe -- oxy codeine which is just time release. i would have been taking

anywhere from 1500 milligrams maybe to maybe 1,000 -- maybe 1,000 milligrams or 1200 milligrams on a day i didn't take as much or didn't have as much up to -- there were days, many days, a lot of days, most days were more than that. many days would be, you know, more than 2,000 milligrams a day. >> how many pills was that? >> it depends on the strength. >> let's say it's the 30s that you just mentioned. >> if i too -- if i had 30

milligram pills, you figure 1 pills would be 3,000 milligrams. >> you are taking 60 a day or something like that? >> there were days i took more than that and days i took less than that. >> how would you take them during the course of a day? how many are you taking at one time, how frequent in the time period january to june? >> you know, there is a point in time -- i'm not sure when it was -- i think it was well before that, where -- you have to understand this. this is something that i didn't -- i can still remember the first time i ever took an oxycontin. >> can you answer my question and i will let you explain all you want. how many were you taking a day during this time from january to june, answer that first, please. if you want to explain i'm happy to let you do so. >> i'm not positive and here is why is because over the years as

i was saying the first oxycontin. one made me sick. and that was when i was transitioning from hydro company doan to oxycodone. it was a really strong one. it made me sick. one oxycontin pill was like ten hydro pills. as i took more and more and over the years you build up a tolerance to pain pills and so what might give me this energy. the reason -- one of the reasons i became so addicted is some people talk about pain pills and how they make them lethargic and where they can't do anything and they feel -- opiates gave me energy. whatever i was doing it made it more interesting. it made me want to do it longer.

you know, to go on a drive, it just -- at the beginning it made everything better. but i took so much just to keep -- it got to a point where i was taking so much just to not backslide or go into withdrawals or have all those symptoms so it got to the point where i was taking the amounts that i came to be taking in the time period you are talking about january to june. so it evolved over time. it wasn't like it just started, mr. waters. >> give me one example of a day during that time period. did you start at 8:00 in the morning or whatever time you got up and take one and then one every 30 minutes? i'm giving you a chance to explain. >> it would totally depend on

any number of circumstances. so starting a day one of the main things this would depend on is how late the day before i had taken pills and how many i had taken. and did i take them during the night? did i wake up during the night and take them? so, you know, let's just say it had been a while since i took any and i slept and i woke up, all right? then i would immediately -- immediately first thing take pills because it had been a while. a lot of times if you slept and hadn't taken pills, you would wake up and you could tell the beginnings of those -- i won't say they were really withdrawals but the agitation you feel when you don't take it and you could tell it so you had to take it right away. first thing i would do was take

pills. >> that's how strong the withdrawals are for opiates, right? you feel that agitation until you can take another pill. >> yes. but that's just -- agitation is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to opiate withdrawals. >> i think you said in your what has been played for the jury and the telephone conversation with special agent kelly that -- you talked about withdrawals, just how strong they are. how you are willing to do anything to make them stop, correct? >> i think what i said is almost anything. >> almost anything. >> describe that, please. >> you are sick. you are physically -- you are

physically sick. it's like having the flu when you ache and your joints hurt. you don't want to get up. you can't get up. that's after a while. it starts with what you are talking about agitation and, you know, fidgeting. everybody talks about how fidgeting i was. but it starts with that and then it goes to you just -- you might be sitting here and all of a sudden sweats running is down your face all over your body. like you ran a marathon. you literally sweat that much. the next thing that comes on after about 12 hours is i call it jumpy legs. i mean you literally -- there is

no way that you can sit right here in this chair. you couldn't remain sitting. you would have to get up and move around. it is like your legs don't want to work. and that lasts for about anywhere from 18 to 24 hours. during that period, the -- you know, the intestinal issues come in and you literally can't control yourself. you have diarrhea like you have food poisoning. you throw up. you physically are sick. >> how many times did you try to self-detox? >> mr. waters, dozens, dozens.

if not hundreds. it is so many i can't tell you. >> and those symptoms you just described are extremely powerful and made it very difficult to do that, is that correct? >> made it difficult to -- >> self-detox? >> oh, extremely hard. >> you mentioned yesterday that you were paranoid. how long had that been going on? >> well no, i didn't say that i was paranoid. what i said was as the addiction evolved there would be situations where you would have these paranoid thoughts. >> when did those first start? >> i can't tell you when they first started. >> how long before june of 2021, a week, a month. >> no, no, it was -- you know,

it was as my addiction got worse, i mean it was a significant period of time but, you know. >> how long would you have these paranoid thoughts? >> usually a matter of seconds. it was something -- again, my whole life you wouldn't see me where i didn't have pills on me. that's where i kept them. i kept them on me because i was scared to put them somewhere for fear somebody would find them. i kept them on me. if you saw me, i had pills on me. i had a pocketful of pills on june 8th, on june 8th when i was sitting in david owen's patrol car. so i always had them on me. and i might turn -- i might be

going to a town and i turned on hampton street and a police car pulls out, boom, i have paranoid thoughts, you know? it just -- but i could always say you're not doing anything wrong. he is not following you. i could get past it then in a matter of seconds. >> did anybody if your family ever see you having these severe withdrawals? >> absolutely. >> and who did? >> maggs, pawpaw, bus, my dad, randy, john marvin, and just to

be clear, randy and john marvin never saw me having withdrawals before september. >> thank you for clarifying that. prior to june of 2021 who in your family saw you having these severe with drawings. >> bus, pawpaw, maggie, my dad. >> do you remember calling -- remember calling paul a little detective? >> i don't know that i ever called him a little detective but i think maggie did. i may have. pawpaw was very intuitive so i heard -- i heard miriam call him a little detective. maggie used to call him that.

>> did that have anything to do with the pills? >> well, yeah, it had something to do with it. paul was always that way. but that -- what led him to be called a little detective certainly there were times when paul found pills. >> including just a month before the murders, is that correct? >> no, sir. >> all right. do you recall 6-5-23 which was a text from paul to you which he said that maggie found pills in your bag? >> right. >> tell me about what happened after that? >> you asked me about paul finding them. it was maggie that found them. >> it was maggie that found them? >> yes, sir. >> but paul is the one who reached out to you, correct? >> on that occasion, yes, sir.

>> all right. and what was the discussion after that? >> i can't remember exactly what it was but it was about that i had eye surgery -- i don't know what day it was. days before that. the day maggie found them maggie drove me to the doctor for me to have my cataract removed, whatever they call that surgery, i can't remember. i had a cataract taken out. out patient. you come in for a couple of hours and you come out. it was during covid and so maggie wasn't allowed to come into the doctor's office and so she sat in the car and i had left pills in the computer bag and sitting out there bored, i guess she started looking at my computer and found them in the computer bag so she found those

pills. >> all right. and so she obviously told paul and paul texted you, correct? about finding those pills? >> that's correct. >> in may of 2021. >> that's correct. >> you have heard your sister-in-law say he called him the little detective about the pills. you heard that testimony in this courtroom? >> i did hear that. >> did they start to watch you like a hawk and get on you about your pill usage during the month of may? >> no. >> they did not? >> no, mr. waters, this battle that i had with addiction, it had been going on for years, years. and so they had been watching me like a hawk for years before may. may was just one occurrence where i let them down.

again. >> they had been watching you like a hawk for years, is that correct? >> about my pill addiction, yes, sir. that is correct. >> this time in may wasn't the only time that paul found pills or maggie found pills, is that correct? >> there were a number of times where maggs found pills, pawpaw found pills, bus found pills, i mean, it was an ongoing -- it was just an ongoing battle for

me. >> and after they found those pills in may, that being maggie and paul, were they trying to get you to self-detox? >> no, sir, not at that point in time. >> they just let it go. ? >> no, they didn't let it go but at that point in time, pawpaw and i had already had a discussion based on -- i can't remember exactly when it was but there had been a previous occasion a good while back where -- there had been a previous occasion where either maggie or paul had found pills and paul had come to me and asked me --

and i told him, you know, i was back on the pills. and -- >> when was this occasion? >> we had a long talk. as i said, i don't remember exactly when it was before that. paul and i had had a long talk and we had agreed -- i had agreed and i detoxed so many times. i had been to detox. i detoxed at home with maggie's help and detoxed at home with doctor's help. detoxed on my own, tried to, and it just detoxing just didn't

work. it just -- you couldn't -- you could detox, but you couldn't -- but i couldn't -- i couldn't stay off of them, and so -- i promised paul that as soon as his -- as soon as we finished with his criminal case that i would go to rehab. and -- and on this particular occasion, paul knew that his mom

worried about me so much with the pills that on this particular occasion, i think that pawpaw convinced maggie that i got those pills in anticipation of the eye surgery but that i never took them so that she would not worry that i was once again -- >> now you are talking about the time in may that paul talked to maggie and told her that? >> i'm not claiming that, mr. waters. that's the fact, that's what happened. >> we're hearing that now, correct? >> hearing what now? >> what you just said. >> you just asked me.

if you keep making an issue the first time you hear about these things. when i got arrest had and want to jail we began reaching out to talk to you about all these things to try you everything i had done to give you all these details to help you go through the financial things and up until the time that you charged me with murdering my wife and child you had never give jim griffin a response to our invitations to sit down and meet with you. >> so you are saying i never responded to jim griffin. are you saying that you ever before yesterday reached out to anyone for yourself or through your attorneys and reached out to anyone and told them the story about the kennels. are you telling me that? >> what i'm telling you. >> answer my question first, please. did you ever reach out to anyone in law enforcement or the prosecution and tell that story you told this jury yesterday

about the kennels before yesterday? >> did i ever reach out to law enforcement to say i want to tell you about the kennels, no, i did not. >> the fifth amendment line. this questioning about him volunteering information on these charges violates his fifth amendment rights and we strongly object to any more we have to make a motion. >> you brought it up. >> objection is overruled. >> what i did was -- >> answer my question first, sir. >> he was talking about financial stuff. >> answer my question. before yesterday, did you ever bring up what you told this jury about that kennel to anybody in the prosecution or anybody in law enforcement? >> no.

i didn't have the opportunity to, mr. waters, because you would not respond to my invitations to reach out and tell you about all the things that i had done wrong. and to talk about bringing this to a head to talk about bringing this to closing. i understand how many people i hurt. i understand how angry my partners are and how hurt they are. and i understand how hurt these people that i stole money from are. i understand how hurt they are. and one of the things that i believe is getting past this may help them get some closure and so since at least january i've been trying to sit down with y'all to talk to you y'all. and never, never, ever got a response to the multiple requests. >> multiple requests?

>> yes, sir. multiple requests. i would ask about this. >> did mark ball ever hear your story to the jury about the kennels until yesterday, your buddy and law partner? >> i haven't spoken to mark ball since i went to rehab. >> these were the same law partners you were listening to the night of is that what you testified to this jury earlier? you testified to that earlier, did you not? >> i don't understand your question. >> didn't you testify earlier you were listening to your law partners on the night of the incident? >> was i listening to them? >> you testified to that. simple question, sir. >> i'm sure i was. when are you talking about? >> on june 8th in the early morning hours you testified you were listening to them but you never told them the kennel story either and they heard it for the first time yesterday as well, isn't that correct? >> yes. that's the first time they heard

it. >> the first time crosby ever heard that would have been yesterday. >> he was listening it would have been the first time. >> and the first time crawford heard it was yesterday? first time danny henderson, represent you in the boat case was yesterday? >> yesterday is the first time i have said that openly. but that's not what you were asking me, mr. waters. you go ahead. >> first time your brother randy heard that was yesterday. >> if he was listening. >> just to be clear i was begging for a meeting with y'all to try to bring this to a close to talk to you all about

everything up until the time that you charged me with hurting maggie and paul. now, after that point in time, i stopped. >> you were begging for a meeting and -- but you admit information was never conveyed that you wanted to change your story after multiple interviews with law enforcement about what happened that night, including the most important fact of all which is when the last time you supposedly saw your wife and son alive was. >> i don't know exactly what was conveyed or not because to you because i wasn't part -- all i know is what i was trying to do was to sit down. i understood to bring all this to a close that y'all would want me to sit down and go through all of these financial things, all of these things that i had done wrong, and to try to bring

that to a close. i was repeatedly trying to sit down with y'all. >> the reality is, mr. murdaugh, the reason why no one has ever heard that before is because you had to sit in this courtroom and hear your family and friends one after the other come and testify you were on the kennel video so you like you've done so many times over the course of your life had to back up and make a new story that fit with the facts that can't be denied, isn't that true sir? >> no, sir, that's not true. >> okay. you have done that over and over again over the years with all this we've been talking about, haven't you? >> i've done what over and over again. >> the second you are confronted with facts you can't deny, you immediately come up with a new lie. isn't that correct? >> mr. waters, have we established i have lied many times but i can't sit here and tell you what are you talking about facts that i can't deny? i would disagree with that proposition that you are putting

out that that was what i did all the time. in doing that, i admit again that i have lied to people that trusted me. >> so we can agree that the prosecution and law enforcement and so many of your friends and family heard for the first time your story about the kennels yesterday after all these weeks of testimony. can we agree on that? >> law enforcement, my partners, and my friends heard me say that for the first time, yes, i agree with that. >> would you agree with me --

that your own lawyer was repeating your story that you were at home napping as late as november of 2022 on national television? >> i don't know. >> you don't know that? >> in jail we don't get newspapers and the tv we have is limited. >> your own lawyers at least as late as november 2022 didn't know the story you have told to this jury after five weeks of your family and friends saying it's him on that video. >> objection. total improper. totally improper. >> response. >> he has brought up his communications with counsel and

now that's fair game, your honor. his communications -- alleged communications with the prosecution. >> there is no attorney/client privilege to national television interviews. the objection is overruled. >> are you waiting for me to answer or did i answer? >> i think the point is made. >> all right, sir. >> you said you were unaware of that national television interview, is that what you are saying? >> unaware of what national television interview? >> the one where your lawyer repeated that story, your story that you were home asleep at the house

>> the only national tv ad that i'm aware of is -- not ad, program is one that mr. griffin was involved in was a -- are you referring to a date line something? >> i'm talking about hbo. >> all right. yeah, i am aware of that. and what i believe the case to be is that i believe that when that was in its works, that mr. griffin made those statements sometime substantially before november of 2022. as early as around the very beginning of 2021. >> let's talk -- >> that's what i understand to be the case. >> let's talk more about your testimony from yesterday and you are telling this jury even in something as clear as this kennel video that your story

doesn't change when you have to make them face the facts that can no longer be denied. >> i don't understand that question. >> i said you are telling this jury that you don't change your story to make the facts fit evidence you can no longer deny like what's going on in this courtroom? >> i'm not telling the jury anything about that. >> all right, good. >> let's move on and talk more about that issue. let's talk about the confrontation on june 7th which you said was no big deal. isn't that what you testified, words to that effect? >> i think what i testified to is that to me it certainly didn't seem like a confrontation. jeanne came to me and was almost

apologetic. this is what i believe, mr. waters, is i believe that what jeanne and my partners have had to go through since september has been hard. i know -- i could see it. i could see the hurt that i caused them, and i know that they are betrayed and i know that they are angry, and i know that they are hurt. and i want to make clear to this, that while i disagree with what jeanne said as to it being a confrontation, because i don't believe that it was, i don't think she was lying. i think she feels it. i think that, you know, she believes that's the case after all this time that she has had to deal with this. but on june 7th when she came to me she was almost apologetic.

you heard her say that she said that she wouldn't be doing her job if she didn't do this and it was made clear to me that someone had said this, that i had to make sure that income came through the firm, that i couldn't structure money. in other words, i had the impression that there was concern that maybe, like crosby said that maybe i was hiding fees because of the civil boat case. but that conversation was so quick, mr. waters, that you keep using the term confrontation. i didn't take it as a confrontation. >> you are telling this jury you are not making that issue fit, make your story fit with those facts by saying it wasn't a big deal and jeanne, she is hurt so she is overreacting now.

is that what you're testifying? >> what i'm saying is what i testified to. to me on that day, that was not a confrontation. it ended almost as quickly as it began and i didn't think about it again for a period of time until after everything happened. >> you testified earlier you get paranoid if a police officer turns out behind you but not getting paranoid when jean' said i need an answer about these fees because i believe you took them? >> no, things like that wouldn't cause -- >> the paranoid thought and thinking was always related to pills. it was always okay, that reaction that somebody just gave me. >> it was always related to pills. >> do they know something? did something somebody said? it was -- the times -- that's

when i had to deal with paranoid thinking that, you know, if a judge confronted me in the courtroom about a piece of evidence or if jeanne asked me about that, those are not things that gave me paranoid thinking. >> okay. you testified the same thing about the boat hearing on june 10th. not worried about it, no big deal, correct? >> no, i didn't say it was no big deal. but i said that my main concern about those motions coming up on june 10th dealt more with the venue motion than they did with the motion to compel. i believe is what i said. >> are you telling this jury you didn't testify yesterday you weren't concerned about it?

>> i wasn't overly concerned about it. and i'm sure i had some level of concern because the venue motion was -- it was a big issue in the case. >> were you concerned about blowing up at mark tinsley and say what are you doing? >> no, absolutely never happened. >> if the ferris issue comes to light on june 7th you aren't going to be able to borrow money from johnny parker anymore. >> if the ferris fee came the light on june 7th? here, any point in time if the

ferris fee came to light johnny parker would not loan me money. if johnny knew that i had taken fees, i would not have been able to borrow money from johnny parker. >> you testified earlier about going to the gamecock baseball game on the weekend prior to monday, june 7th, 2021, correct? >> correct. >> [inaudible] >> sir? >> [inaudible].

>> all right, i'll show you what has been marked as state 572 for this trial. do you have your glasses with you? and have you -- first i want you to look through that document and then answer the question do you generally know what that is. >> someone wants something. if you'll stand for a moment. everybody stand for a moment.

>> they killed the mic in the courtroom and we've been watching for a bit more than an hour. johnny spilbor and mercedes are with us as well. jonna, you are a defense attorneys and mercedes you have a prosecutor's eye. whether or not is the defense working here? >> the defense is working. it is the prosecution that is not. i just witnessed something i don't think i've ever seen before. the prosecutor turned the tables. in his case in chief he have did a good job at getting everybody i'm sure including the jury to dislike alex murdaugh.

he is nothing but a liar and cheat. now i think the your -- jurey is disliking the prosecutor. when people apologize what do they do? they restore the trust in the people they are apologizing to. i think the jury is feeling sorry for alex murdaugh now and not what the prosecution wants. it's the prosecution's fault. >> bill: quick answer, mercedes? >> i love jonna. i totally agree with you many times. this is one where i say not so fast. it was so clear -- i agree maybe the prosecution asked one question too many but he confirmed that no one heard this story regarding the kennels until yesterday. months and months of discussions with law enforcement and family and discussions with friends and no one heard that story until yesterday? that was the death knell to the

defense. it was something that was inescape able and something any defense attorney thinks about before putting a client on a stand. do not put them on the stand if your client has a whopper of a lie. >> they are now discussing text messages exchanged night before the murders. >> they would have been somewhere between the hotel, restaurant and the ball field. >> all right. when you sent this text on june 6th at 11:41 you said y'all didn't see it already, correct? >> that's what i did say. >> and they say -- maggie says yes, we like these seats, is that correct. >> yes, that's correct. they are in the ballpark at that time. i didn't notice that. >> you respond better than last night they sent a check out to one, going to come then, is that correct? >> that's what the text says. >> you are back at the room, is

that right? >> yes, sir. >> later on you text after she asks you to bring a charger and says muggy, you text, i'm dreading it. see you in a little bit. is that correct? >> that's what i said, yes, sir. >> she responds don't come but then asks about the charger. says it's hot. is that correct? >> mr. waters, yes, i assume you are reading it exactly so, yes, sir. >> all right. she eventually responds not crowded but not the place to come if you don't feel well. very hot and muggy. we're inside sitting at the bar.

very nice indoors, is that correct? >> that's what it says. >> they are making me leave so i'll see you all in a few, is that correct? >> that's correct. >> who was making you leave where? >> it was past check-out time at the hotel. >> after you got an extended check-out, correct? >> it appears so. >> and the reality is, is that you were in that hotel suffering from withdrawals when that is going on, is that correct? >> i was beginning to, yes, sir. >> and the reality is, is that your wife and your son were on you at that time period because they had found pills just a few weeks prior. >> no, sir, that's not correct. >> let's talk about june 7th,

okay? you got up that morning. what time do you think you got up and left that day? >> after having the benefit of looking at all these records, i don't know what time i got up. in looking at the records i had been up for a while but it appears i left shortly after noon. >> okay. and you went to work? >> i did, yes, sir. >> and what were you working on at work? >> i was working on this

dominion energy case. it was primarily what i was working on that we had motions coming up later in that week. as i said earlier, i believed at the time that it was the biggest case that i had ever been involved in and there were motions coming up in that. i was preparing -- danny henderson, my partner that was helping me with this civil case from the boat wreck, had been on me about getting a financial statement and i finished doing that so that it could be given to danny. that's what i remember doing. obviously i talked to jeanne. but --

>> what time did you leave? >> i'm sure i did other routine office things but i can't tell you what they are. >> all right. what time did you leave? >> it appears that i left around a little after 6:00 from the records. >> okay >> i thought i left earlier than that but the records seem to be pretty clear. >> all right. and you were in fact i think you said in many of your interviews you were working on the boat case that day as well. your financial declaration. >> yes, i prepared the financial declaration. i didn't do any work in this civil case. so my work in that is what i did. i prepared a financial statement which took me a little bit of time to get the details on that. but that was the work i did in

preparation for the motions coming up. >> what time did you get home? >> in looking at the records it looks like i got home a little before 7:00. 6:45 i think, 6:40 something. >> you and paul rode the property? >> that's correct. >> and you told law enforcement you shot a.22. >> that's correct? you told law enforcement that you never saw any blackout? >> that i had never seen a blackout? >> at that point and time when you and paul arrived on the property. >> no, i did not see a blackout. >> did you tell law enforcement that you and paul were going around looking for hogs? >> if i said that, and -- if i told them that, you know, you

don't look for hogs in the daytime, all right? that just -- the hogs are deep in the swamp in the daytime so i can tell you that paul and i were not riding around looking for hogs. but what we were doing is we were going from food plot to food plot and we were looking for hog signs, all right? what a hog would be is come out and root and tear up food plants and they tear up everything. and so that was one of the things we were doing. but we were not hog hunting. we were not looking for hogs. we did not have the 300 blackout with us. >> paul didn't have the gun that blackout that he favored with him while y'all rode the property? >> the gun that's in here? >> any rifle. >> there was no 300 blackout with me and paul. >> all you had was a .22. >> that was a pistol. we didn't have that with us at

that time riding the property. >> right. and you testified you've seen the snapchat video of you in the tree, is that right? >> i have seen that. >> you don't dispute the time of that video, do you? >> i don't even know what time that was taken but whatever the gentleman came and testified to i don't dispute that. >> all right. and what time --let me ask you this. when did you go back to the house? were you with paul or were you by yourself? >> i was by myself when i went back to the house. i went back to the house basically when maggie got there. >> all right. and where had paul gone prior to that? was he back at the house already or he came after you? >> paul was at the shop when i went back to the house. >> all right. so you beat him to the house is what you are saying, is that

right? >> i beat him to the house? >> you were at the house prior to him getting there. >> yes. >> and you say maggie was there at the same time or there before you or there after you? >> that's what i'm not absolutely certain about. i believe that maggie came through the kennel entrance going back and looking at these records and these times i believe she came through the kennel entrance why pawpaw and i were at the shop. but either way, i got to the house very shortly after maggie got there. and i believe that she came through and i believe that i went right behind her. >> when did you take the shower you've been talking about to the jury? >> i believe when i first went in the house. i would have talked to maggie for a second but i had seen her that morning so i would -- >> you left your clothes on the floor? >> i'm not sure. it makes sense to me given what

was said but i couldn't tell you one way or the other. >> all right. about what time was that, do you think? >> in looking at the records i think it was a little after 8:00. >> you are saying maggie was already there at that point? >> when i got to the house? >> yeah. >> yeah. >> okay. and what did you do after that? >> i came back out, sat down on the couch to eat dinner. >> about what time was that? >> a few minutes later. it didn't take me long to shower. >> and you say paul was already eating at that point? >> he was. >> you say he left first. >> what i said is he got up and he finished eating. and he left our immediate vicinity. now, i don't believe he left at

that point given what i've looked at time records and all. i believe that he was around the house for a little bit longer. >> just to be clear >> but i didn't see him. >> all of this detail was people were hearing for the first time yesterday like we talked about before, correct? >> say that again? >> all of this detail that we are going through right now is not anything you related before. we're all hearing this for the first time yesterday. >> objection, your honor. >> objection is overruled. >> i did not tell law enfor enforcement. actually, i don't think law enforcement asked me what i did when we first went to the house.

i clearly lied to law enforcement about what i said yesterday. >> okay. and all of this, the last time you supposedly saw your wife and child. all of this detail you as a lawyer and prosecutor didn't think it was important to offer on your own? >> i think it's important. >> you told this jury how cooperative you have been and how much information you wanted to provide but left out the most important parts, didn't you? >> i left out that, i sure did. >> you don't consider that one of the most important parts? >> i think it's important. >> tell me about what happens next? tell me about how maggie and paul end up down at the kennels. >> i'm still not absolutely certain exactly how they ended up at the kennel but in looking at the time frames and looking

at the gps points, i think i pretty well know because i wasn't sure if maggie had walked to the kennels or ridden to the kennels. i wasn't exactly sure how pawpaw got there, but i'm all but certain that maggie and paul went to the kennel together. >> all right. and what was the discussion? you said that they were going down there but you didn't want to go, is that right? >> what i said is maggie asked me to go to the kennels with her and i wasn't going to go. i said i'm not going to go. >> how long after she left did you supposedly go down there? >> it was very quickly. >> and what did you tell this jury in all these new facts to the reason you changed your mind? why did you change your mind? >> i had just had a shower. when you go to the kennel, you

always end up getting shot, dogs are running around and end up doing more work, all right? it's hot. i had already had a shower. i didn't want to go to the kennel. >> i understand that. why did you change your mind? >> because maggie wanted me to. >> all right. so you thought about it for a few minutes and then decided to go down there. >> i don't think i sat and contemplated am i going to go, am i going to go. like many things maggie wanted me to do. i ended up doing that. >> how long to drive from the house to the kennels in a golf cart? >> you know, in looking at the records from on star and all that it seems to take about a minute. >> in the golf cart? >> not in the suburban. i would think it is probably looking at those speeds of 20, 24 miles-an-hour i would think it takes double that. i think it takes a couple

minutes. >> you will concede a couple minutes to drive down there, is that right in a golf cart >> that's correct. >> when the kennel video was going on, had you arrived before that? >> i believe that i had. >> okay. how long do you think you had been there before that was going on? >> not long because when i got there, in looking at the kennel video, you can see pawpaw standing in the kennel. when i got there, pawpaw wasn't standing in the kennel. >> he wasn't in the kennel anymore? >> he wasn't in the kennel like he is in the video. i mean he is probably -- i don't know exactly but i know he wasn't in the kennel. he was like in the driveway. he was fooling with cash.

he was in the driveway. but close to the kennel, but not in the kennel like he is in the video. >> so the video happened after that? according to you? >> video happened after i got there. >> when you first saw paul you said he wasn't in the kennel. why did the video happen? >> i believe that to be the case. >> after you arrived, correct? >> very shortly after i arrived but after i arrived. >> and did you tell maggie at that time that you were going to go to alameda? >> i did not. >> did you discuss it at all according to these new facts you are testifying to? >> i don't believe so. >> did you have any conversation with her? >> oh yeah. >> had you had a conversation -- did you have a conversation with paul about the dogs about cash's tail prior to going down there? >> prior t