♪ ♪ howard: when someone on the right says something inflammatory, everyone goes nuts. but when someone on the left does it, what's the big keel? it just vanishes into the ether. marjorie taylor green called for a national divorce between red states and blue sates. st the utterly impractical. who gets control of army bases? and liberal pundits piled on the republican congresswoman even

after she tried to soften he remarks. >> the last thing i ever want to see in america is a civil war, but it's going that direction, and is we have to do something about it. howard: fox's laura ingraham eviscerated the idea, including greene's notion that people who moved from green states to red states wouldn't be allowed to vote for five years. >> first, a law prohibiting american citizens who have not committed a crime from voting would probably not withstand legal scrutiny, and second how would this, like, national divorce be good for conservativism? howard: now let's look at this grenade from the left. ripping nikki haley with msnbc host mythty hassad. >> she uses her brown skin as a weapon, and she uses her brown skin to launder white supremacists' talking points. howard: we're talking about a woman of color, south carolina governor banned the confederate flag from statehouse grounds, and ali is making the racist

charge shah thiess -- that she's a piece for -- mouthpiece for white supremacy? jake tapper called this out, almost everyone else in the media, crickets. i'm mouther kurtz -- howard kurtz and this is "mediabuzz." ♪ ♪ howard: most of the national media kid cannot descend quickly on ohio after that toxic train wreck because, well, they're more focused on major e cities hand the tiny town of east palestine which is all too easy dismissed at flyover country. but by the third week, the environmental damage and the political sniping had finally made it a big story. candidate donald trump saw an opening, went to east palestine with trump water to help fill the void is. >> unfortunately, as you know, in too many cases your goodness and perseverance were met with indifference and betrayal in some cases. biden and fema said they would

not send federal aid to east palestine under any circumstance. howard: the next day transportation secretary pete buttigieg finally showed up. >> are we concern a week after the accident happened. >> i felt strongly about this and could have expressed that sooner. >> pete buttigieg and other officials of the biden, in the biden administration, yeah, even pete buttigieg says he could have gone there sooner. >> and if he had, actually, any honor, he'd probably stand down from his job, because if you can't turn up when thing happens, why are you a transport secretary? howard: joining us now, robby soave and many in new york, liz claman. robby, why were the national media not all over east palestine right from the start?

is it another forgotten midwestern own? >> yeah. i think you nailed it in your remarks. they're not as interested in the stories of people like the residents of east palestine, working class, precome significantly trump-voting. tease are not a kind of people that the mainstream media is even familiar with anymore because everyone who writes for mainstream publications lives in new york, d.c. or maybe l.a., and they're just on twitter all day, and they're paying attention to the stories, cultural stories and those kinds of things. they're not paying attention to the real economic conditions in working class america. howard: you're saying it's like a foreign country, these journeyses in big city. >>s exactly. in fact, there are some foreign countries they're covering -- we're going to talk about that later, i think -- but with more enthusiasm than the united states. howard: yes, we will. fema's turndown, i think, set the media narrative which was later reversed concern reversed. i guess you can say the contaminated water, thousands of fish dying, a strange smell in the air weren't evident until

later, but were the media more interested in making this a political football? >> well, i'm laughing partly inside because having worked in local news for nine years, seven of which were in ohio for cleveland and columbus, we used to get constantly criticized for taking something and, quote, blowing it out of proportion. and in the end, you know, let's just be very clear about something. the universal -- for what really feeds a news crew and all networks and small markets is two things. number one, is it a good visual and, number two, at least lately especially with cable news, is it politically divisive. and you didn't see that huge plume of smoke until two days in, right? howard: right. >> so suddenly are, for better or worse, i would argue, you had all the media coming in. but one really important point to make here, howie, is google trends focused on how many times in the first 48 hours this was mentioned in news and on

networks. cnn actually mentioned it the most. not nearly enough because the bigger story it was covering was the china balloon. fox was second and then ms was kind of a distant third. but people should have been looking at news nation. two days into it they sent their reporter, they pulled him -- i believe his name is evan lamberm the murdaugh trial in south carolina, that murder trial. they sent him to east palestine. he kid some bang-up work, really good stuff, and then they put their investigative reporter on to the scene. so is, i mean, news nation was right there. howard: that is true. >> very, very early. howard: that is true. and evan lambert ended up going to jail for a few hours, it was the an embarrassment, i thought. robby, shrewd move by donald trump to go there because there was a building perception that it wasn't getting enough high-level attention. but i've got to point out cabinet members don't usually go to derailments where there are no casualties, and trump's transportation secretary didn't go even when there were

casualties. so is there a new standard being created? >> i think, to be fair, there's definitely some point scoring going on from republicans saying, oh, you know, the biden administrations has abandoned these people. we're debating whether changes that were made under the trump regime had something to do with it. i think it's not clear, by the way. we need more time to understand how this derailment happened, what regulations should be in place. but look, trump, reality is, you can't deny this, trump did great in making this visit. he interacted with the people. i saw footage of him at that mcdonald's, it was good optics. he knows how to talk to working class people, and that's why he remains defiantly popular with them even as other people in conservative media really want to move on from trump. you can't count this man out because he resonates with people in a way that it's hard even for conservatives to understand. howard: we'll touch on that later. liz, trump also drew media criticism and criticism from the democrats for why his

administration dropped an obama proposal for faster brakes on trains with highly flammable material. i don't think it would apply to this case and set aside a pending rule that there be at least two crew members on freight trains. remember, it was an overheated wheel that didn't get detected in time, and that's why there was a derailment. >> well, yes, exactly. and there are a couple of issues here. number one, what donald trump did by going there put the biden administration on the defensive. game, set, match right then and there. then you start to dig in and realize, yeah, very much politically motivated possibly. the fact is that -- and it's highly documented, and president trump when he was president was very proud of his record, in fact, he even had the 2017 news conference, i think you would remember, he had the big gold scissors where he cut the red tape and said he was getting rid of a bunch of regulations. 100 plus of those regulations were environmental safety issues, and thopg them -- among them what you just outlined.

and then you've got fox news fact checking president trump, doing exactly what you just said saying, you know, he can't go to fate aal train accidents. so there is -- fatal train accidents. so there is, as robby puts it, this opportunity to, first, get the big hit on television, which is what president trump did. "the new york times" put a very unflattering quote in its article about that, but it was unflattering to president biden. they quoted somebody who was on the ground and said where's joe biden? he's shooting a chinese balloon. howard: well, on that point -- >> so you do have the press looking, as i said, those two substrates, those two things, they want about the visual and the political divisiveness. howard: by the end of the week, this subject was dominating a white house press briefing with karine jean-pierre. i'm going to play some of it for you, and believe me, we're just giving you a small slice. roll it. >> is the president going to go to ohio? >> you can't say that the president has plans to go there

now. is it in cushion the that the president may go there in the near future -- discussion? >> i just don't is anything to share. howard: joe biden still hasn't gone. he was asked by abc if he was going, and he didn't answer that part of the question. but what took buttigieg so long? most visible member of trump's cabinet, and even though his presence doesn't actually help with the rescue efforts and there may be people there from the national transportation safety board and on and on, it shows that washington cares. >> yeah. all think even if he's a team player because the reality is biden can't go now, it would look like he's following trump there, but if buttigieg had gone, it could have deflected some of the criticism that the administration is out of touch with working people. so it certainly is something that should have happened. secretary buttigieg doesn't seet fair to criticize him for this, but it certainly seems like a lot of things are going wrong in the transportation sector. not just trains, but, of course, the whole southwest airlines issue. i'll believe that they're trying to make air travel sane again

once i don't have to a take off my shoes and belt when i get to the airport which everyone admits does nothing to enhance safety. i know that's under homeland security, not transportation. still, there's -- it can show you how you can have regulations that don't enhance anything or make anything better. i think in the train situation, the most important thing is to make sure that norfolk southern is liable and pays, and it's their responsibility to fix this primarily, not the federal government. howard: there was some pushback in politico for mayor pete saying he was a scapegoat. he did 23 interviews in the first 10 is days after this -- 10 days after after this train wreck, and not one journalist asked him about east palestine. so so it wasn't only the politicians. but i just think, you know, the optics of going there really help and, liz, the three major cable news networks didn't carry trump's appearance or buttigieg's appearance. but trump posted this thing about having a great ratings day, 178 million people

watching. that includes, i guess, online. i don't really see how you come up with that figure, but he was certainly conscious of wanting to own the spotlight for that moment. >> he kind of did. [laughter] and by the way, npr, because you know, howie, we're looking at how the media covered this. npr swatted at pete buttigieg saying that under political pressure he went. it is not -- i'm calling it political optics. of terrible poli-optics here that buttigieg, the transportation secretary, did not go to this location relatively soon or even discuss it. howard: yes, absolutely. >> i mean, this could be an environmental disaster with far reaching consequences. howard: looks like it is at some level. let me get a break. when we come back, how the press has been covering president biden's surprise trip to ukraine and the political fallout. ♪ ♪ t may qualify for a payroll tax refund

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howard: president biden stunned the political world and the press with a risky, surprise visit to ukraine that marked the one-year anniversary of vladimir putin's brutal and unare provoked invasion. >> one year later, kyiv stands and ukraine stands. democracy stands. the americans stand with you, and the world stands with you. nato will not be divided, and we will not tire. >> there's a genuine hope that this is an important signal that the u.s. is going to the continue to stand in lockstep with the ukrainian people. >> i think it's the best day of a beleaguered presidency by a lot. i think it's a significant historical moment, and all praise to the president for doing it. >> despite all the nitpicking, this is one of the highlights of

the biden presidency. it's one of his stirring moments, going to kyiv in the middle of a war. >> the moment he accepted foot in ukraine, everything changed. in the blink of an eye, he went from jimmy carter to abe lincoln. >> i thought it was a brilliant line from the president saying this is a war of choice, it's vladimir putin's choice, and he could end this war with one word. >> imagine sitting there as the president of the united states tells people in ukraine, we are with you until the end. if you're sitting in palestine, ohio -- howard: we lost end of that sownt sound bite from janineing peer row who went on to say what about the folks here at home. robby, some conservatives said concern and whether you agree or disagree with the war -- said this was a very good thing for joe biden to have done, but it wasn't unanimous. >> sure. and i have to remember that

mainstream media commentators and then also the establishments of both political parties have supported in the past, in the, you know, not too distant past our wars in iraq, afghanistan and elsewhere in a way that the people did not. and my suspicion is that this action, if it's popular or with talking heads, i don't know that continuing unlimited as long as it takes support to ukraine -- which is the line that biden has taken, as long as it takes -- my suspicion is that is not as popular with the american people in both parties, but particularly are republicans as talking heads in the establishment think it is. howard: there's a brand new fox poll. 66% of democrats agree with biden, as long as it takes. 6 is % -- 61% of republicans say limit the time frame. biden took what was, by all accounts, a risky trip.ten houry could guarantee his safety and then according to correspondents from fox and other outlets, when that the air raid siren went

off, there actually was a threat, it wasn't something that was staged. >> okay, absolutely. i think it was important for him to to go, but boris johnson, before he left the prime minister position in the united king come, went when it was a lot more dangerous. well, i don't know how courageous specifically it is because, obviously, we're not mt. state department. but i will also say that justin trudeau of canada went, olaf schultz of germany and then macron, emmanuel macron of france. and jill biden went. [laughter] i mean, the first lady had already gone to ukraine. so everybody has risked. and it is a huge risk. everybody has risked. but i believe -- and when you look at the media, and that was a really good montage that you put together, this particular trip has gotten more bipartisan support and praise than just about anything else joe biden has cone. howard: right. >> because republicans who are in congress who have a working knowledge of foreign policy understand this is hugely important. russia is a disastrous menace,

and they've got the second largest nuclear arsenal mt. world, and you not -- in the world, and you cannot ignore that. howard: i agree that if ukraine were to lose, we could get drawn into a much wider conflict. but, robby, i understand people saying the u.s. is spending way too much money on ukraine's defense when we have urgent needs here at home. what i don't understand is the pundits who say we shouldn't have gone to ukraine because he should have gone to the east palestine. well, even if he should have, it was the one-year anniversary of the war, and the president of the united states shows up to be with zelenskyy. >> i think the optics can't be kiss counted. we are spend any amount of money on ukraine, but we pinch pennies when we're talking about spending domestically and helping out americans who need it. and, look, i agree, obviously, vladimir putin has done an evil, horrific thing that he had no right to do -- howard: war crimes. >> 100%. and i'm not saying, okay, we should cut off weapons or aid

immediately, but what is the administration doing to push for a diplomatic resolution to this problem? because it's going to end with diplomacy either way, and we have to be realistic. ukraine is not going to get everything it wants in the outcome in all likelihood, maybe russia count either. that's just how its -- how it works. that's what's going to happen. and i don't appreciate the state department and the white house's tenor that no matter what it takes as long as it takes. the american people agree with that. they didn't want to stay in afghanistan for another century and eventually that caught up with our government, that that's where the people's minds -- howard: well, this is a huge question, and i think the coverage, in fairness, has been more supportive of the administration than is reflected in the polls. but when ronald reagan, liz, famously said, mr. gorbachev, tear down that wall, this wall, and many democrats said it was a great speech. and, of course, the berlin wall actually did come down. i wonder if in our hyperpolarized media atmosphere whether most people almost can't

praise a president of the other party or has to find something to criticize. >> well, that's kind of where we're at in this country, ands the unfortunate -- and it is unfortunate because when reagan stood at the brandenburg gate, yes, and said take down that wall, it was in the pivotal moment. churchill yarntion if you will. and president biden's big moment was we're here to support you all the way and even when you have jessie watters or jeanine pirro saying this is crucial and important, it certainly is. but the rest of the world is looking for anything to tear down whatever is put up by either side. so it is, it is kind of an illness on either side. and i would actually point back, because i was watching this morning all those morning shows, dana bash had an ohio congresswoman in the legislature there, and she was ripping both sides for not paying enough attention to what you have in ohio. and again --

howard: right. >> -- you can chew gum and talk at the same time. eisenhower, reagan did it, nixon. exactly, it's not an either/or. howard: and service the also true under trump, if he did something good, media liberals wouldn't give him much credit or they'd go on to the litest investigation. the latest investigation. >> i mean, i think it shows you there's always a lot of bipartisanship actually when it comes to foreign policy. that is the subject where you're more likely to see someone from ostensibly the other side of the political aisle give props, but is that consistent with what the american people want? and i point out that some house republicans are going a different way on this. howard: yeah. >> the speaker fight, ken mccarthy's drawn-out confirmation was in part because of what i suspect are actual people who don't necessarily agree that unlimited funding for ukraine is in the best interests of them or world peace. howard: the country's divided as with just about everything.

robby, liz, thanks so much for joining us this sunday. don lemon getting formal training and why a whole bunch of newspapers are are suddenly cropping the dill bert strip.i ♪ haht arm to find great talent. but with upwork, there's highly skilled talent from all over the globe right at your fingertips. it's where businesses meet great remote talent and remote talent meets great opportunity. ♪ ♪ this is how we work now ♪ ♪ i like to move it, move it ♪ ♪ you like to... move it ♪ we're reinventing our network. ♪ ♪

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howard: some of you have been asking why i'm not covering the given yoon voting machines case existence fox. it's absolutely a fair question. i believe i should be covering it, but the company has decided that as part of the organization being sued, i can't talk about it or write about it at least for now. i strongly disagree with that decision, but as an employee, i have to abide by it. and if that changes, i'll let you know. don lemon returned to cnn's morning show the other day after tweeting an apology for his comments about nikki haley. to my network colleagues and audience, i'm sorry. i've heard you. i'm learning from now, and i'm committed to doing better.

but he didn't apologize to haley. cnn's chairman said i sat down with congress and had a frank and meaningful conversation. he has agreed to participate in formal training as well as continuing to listen and learn. we take this situation very seriously. here's what lemon said about the 51-year-old former south carolina governor that stunned his female cohosts. >> nikki haley isn't in her prime, sorry. when a woman is considered to be in her prime in her 20 thes and 30s and maybe 40s. howard: as cringe-worthy as that was, i'm not a cancel culture guy, he should have been fired, but i don't know how many more chances cmn will give him. james o'keefe, the founder of project veritas, has been forced out. his undercover techniques have exposed outrageous liberal bias in places like npr. a third of the staff signed a letter saying that the boss had been outright cruel, and there were questions about financial expenses. o'keefe hit back at the board.

>> ruining our reputation in front of supporters and donors and leaking confidential information and fabricating stories. one of our ethical rules is we don't lie to our audience, and there's nothing i could do about it. because i was stripped of all my decision making. i was removed from ceo. howard: o'keefe say say he'll now create a new organization. carlos watson, the ceo of ozzy media, was arrested and charged with lying to investors and falsifying earnings after his former cofounder pleaded guilty to fraud and identity theft. the charismatic former cable news anchor had talked up the multimillion collar company which shut down two years ago after "the new york times" reported it was exaggerating its traffic numbers and had someone impersonate a youtube executive in an effort to land a $40 million investment from goldman sachs. a heartbreaking story, dylan lyons, a 24-year-old tv reporter for spectrum news in orlando, was sent to the scene of an earlier homicide, and it was there that he was shot and

killed. the spectrum photojournalist was also shot but survived. in the tearful tributes that followed, a colleague called the killing every reporter's worst nightmare. "the washington post"/l. times/"usa today," "detroit free press" and runs of other papers have dropped the popular cartoon strip dilbert. the reason? what hay called a racist rant by creator scott adams in which he calls black people a hate group. in the video the conservative car on theist cites a poll which a slight majority of blacks say it's okay to be white. adams says best advice i would give to white people is to get the hell away from black people, and then he's really sick of seeing video after video of black americans beating up non-black citizens. adams told "the washington post" he expects all papers now i to cancel dilbert. next on "mediabuzz," a former leader of the special grand jury in georgia and a media blitz about whether donald trump will be indicted. how is that not blatantly

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howard: i have never, ever heard of a member of a grand jury giving media interviews curl the an ongoing criminal case, but that's what emily coarse has been doing -- emily coors has been doing. although the district everyone to of atlanta will actually decides whether there are any indictments, coors has made the rounds blatantly hinting to the ap, "the new york times," cnn and nbc that trump will be charged. >> did to you recommend charges against donald trump? >> i will tell you that it was a process where we heard his name a lot. we definitely heard a lot about former president trump, ask we definitely -- and we definitely discussed him a lot in the roomful and i'll say that when this list comes out, you wouldn't -- there are no major

plot twists waiting for you. especially if they've been following the investigation, i, i can't see it being a shocker. howard: while some media outlets expressed excitement at the idea of a trump indictment, anderson cooper questioned what the hell emily coors is doing. >> why this person is talking on tv, i do not understand. >> this is a horrible idea, and i garon' you that prosecutors are wincing watching her go on this. >> i was wincing just watching her eagerness. howard: joining us now, susan ferrechio, chief political reporter for the washington times, and in the studio, kevin corke, who covers the white house for fox news. susan, what is emily coors doing with this sort of wink-wink, trump's on the recommended indictment list, no, i can't quite say it, you wouldn't be shocked. isn't this wildly inappropriate? >> that's the one question i didn't hear anyone ask her, what are you thinking? why are you doing this? i personally would love to know.

i agree with the cnn anchor who said this was a cringe-worthy moment for the prosecution and for the district attorney, but it doesn't seem like there were any platte- flat-out rules prohibiting her from making the rounds. there were rules about what they could talk about, and everyone has their own opinion about whether she violated what the judge ordered in terms of what they could disclose. but there's the court in georgia, then there's the court of public opinion. and it's very obvious that what she said really, really looked bad for the prosecution. howard: kevin, to his credit, anderson cooper's saying why have is she on tv, but cnn aired the interview. let's ask the question, you know, if she wants to cross some lines, fine. that's her problem. but they're putting her on tv and in the newspaper. >> ands exactly what you should do. let her make a right decision or a wrong decision, my job is to ask the question. i just want to remind everybody that the, first of all, indictments, you can indict a ham sandwich, as you and i have talked about, so an indictment the or a recommendation for an indictment is not necessarily something that says you are

guilty or not guilty, it is simply that, an indictment. and as howie pointed out to, you coget the chance if you're the d.a. to make that decision. the fact that she was out there, i think, is ruinous and almost guarantees that the defense teams will obviously come back. howard: that was my next question. if there is an indictment -- and, by the way, donald trump was never interviewed, so he can't be charged with perjury. but if there is, you know, will that jeopardize the case? first, susan, i want to read what trump said on truth social. said this fore the person is going around doing a media tour, revealing, incredibly, the grand jury's inner workings and thoughts. this is not justice, this is an illegal kangaroo court. obviously, he's going to pounce on that. >> well, he's right about one thing, there is no question about whether she was vealing internal proceedings which the judge did prohibit. the jurors are not supposed to be talking about that. but she said, well, you know, you won't be shocked. things that we widely knew about, like talking about the call he made to georgia officials about finding extra

that votes for him to win the state. this stuff was all out there. but, you know, the question about what the public will think if he is indicted, don't forget this district attorney, willis, through a fund raiser for the opponent of one of the targets of that investigation. so she's already been under scrutiny about her own impartiality in this case and whether she's just running a biased prosecution. i think overall, you know, the smell of this thing in georgia looks political and it looks bad. howard: well, leapt me throw up another sound bite from emily coors in which she seems very excited about the idea that she could have sworn in donald trump. >> so i thought it'd be really cool, give me 60 seconds with president trump of me looking at him and being, like, do you solemnly swear -- howard: well, she's having a good -- enjoying her 15 seconds. >> yeah. howard: are the media back to, oh, my god, trump could be back, and now we have an inside source

on television and nothing has resulted? >> the walls are closing in, you know? here we go again. howard: yeah. >> i do think it's obvious she's enjoying her 15 seconds, but i think it's also problematic. i think susan pointed it out, or she's sort of skirting the line here, and i think the judge might have issue with her being out there. she kind of hinted at this idea, howie, that, you know, we've got to get him on something. howard: yes. >> when i heard that, that was it. howard: yeah. i think that really captures it. and by the way, because there's a new fox poll out today, in a republican primary, trump 42, ron desantis, 28%. so we're talking about the possible or likely gop nominee. let me switch to politico, susan, which made the lead story the, banner headline, joe may not run and top dems are quietly preparing. when i read the story, there was nothing new about it except, well, he hasn't picked a date, maybe it's april instead of february, and a sense of doubt is creeping in. what if he decides not to?

joe may not run. >> well, i think what you pointed out there is really important. these days you really need to read past the headlines. so often we just see these headlines, whoa, what's this ale story and you say, wait a sec, it count really say -- doesn't really say he's not going to run. everything he's been saying publicly in recent weeks suggests he's ready to run again. but he is 80 years old. there's no question that his age is going to be a problem and that his performance has been unsteady and that there are a lot of really ambitious democrats who would love to run in his place and who could run in his place including his vice president. but until end up being a primary situation if he did decide not to run. there would be no coronation for vice president harris. but this is a really hot topic because we're just creeping up on the 2024 primary, and it's an exciting topic, is he or isn't he. he hasn't officially filed yet, but he sure sounds like he's going to run. ing alls read past the headlines. howard: right. this was pure click bait, i

think. kevin, the belief among nearly everyone in biden's orbit is he'll ultimately give the all clear. doesn't that undermine the premise of the story? >> 100%. [laughter] i'm so glad you pointed that out. when i read it, i thought, well, that sort of blows this out of the water. they've trying to smoke him out. i think there are some democratic operatives that really want to see is he or isn't he -- howard: he's freezing the field. >> they want to know are you going to or not in the you're not, we gotta get ready. howard: i have no doubt a lot of democrats are getting ready, but he is president of the united states, he says he's going to run. and to show that the politico story didn't have much weight, jill biden, first lady, did an interview with ap i believe over the weekend in africa in which she said we're down to pretty much picking the time and place. and then she said, how many times does he have to say it for you to believe it? so if you read signals in the media world, that is biden world

saying, yeah, for campaign finance reasons we don't the want to say he's running, but he's running. nor does he take any opportunity to knock if it down. i gave myself the last word. kevin, susan, thanks very much. after the break with, steve krakauer has cupping a lot of revealing news -- dug up a lot of revealing news about cnn and the unmistakeable decline of the media. that's next. ♪cest ♪ you are and to know where you came from. finish finish ther... ♪ when aspen dental told me that my dentures were ready, i was so excited.

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howard: how badly have the media fallen in public trust, and why did it happen? i sat down with steve krakauer who's out with a new book, "uncovered: how the media got crazy with power, abandoned its principles and lost the people." steve ca cower in person, welcome. >> great to be here on set. howard: you interviewed my fox colleague, will cain. you quote him as saying that during the trump years cnm traveled the path from buy jas to agendas to propaganda, and by extension, attack anything on the right, any if news story from the right. do you agree with that in. >> i think that will makes a compelling case. i don't know if i would call it straight up propaganda, but i i do think what we saw for a variety of reasons -- i think there were some business elements to it, trump was great for ratings, for clicks -- howard: for a while. >> maybe not so much anymore. for personal reasons, jeff zucker made trump, and trump made jeff zucker hat nbc when

"the apprentice" was going on, and then there were people within that news organization who really thought they were in the fight of their lives, this existential threat. they were doing watergate every day over there -- howard: they were going to save republic. >> exactly. and i think you should double down on your standards, on your journalistic principles. instead they said, oh, this is a special circumstance, we can let the guardrails go off. howard: piers morgan said that cnn drank the anti-trump kool-aid and became inwish bl from msnbc. >> i think that that is very fair to say. and that's really unfortunate because there's a reason why we talk so much about cnn, i think, in the broader cultural context. because cnn was the news, you know? maybe it was boring sometimes the, a little crusty, but when news happened, you turned on cnn because you trusted it. when you lose that because now all of a sudden you start associating them with political ideology, that's a huge problem for the brand. and i absolutely think that they went down that path. they're now trying to dig can themselves out. howard: yeah.

i used to say that all the time, and on that note, in fairness, the chairman of cnn is trying to fix the situation. have more republicans on. but he's got the congress lemon embarrassment. he still haven't replaced chris cuomo, and the ratings have been pretty awful. it's hard to make that turn when somebody everybody trusts you again like in the old days. >> and it's especially hard to make that turn when you're reshuffling the talent that was already there, that's been there during the trump years. howard: right. >> that's generally what's happening so far. i think that the mandate to get back to news, to objectivity, if you will, is the right one. but right now the talent shuffling has not borne that ou- howard: a la reinventing don lemon who had been such a hard liberal as a perky morning show guy? >> i don't think it's worked out at all, certainly not on the ratings side but also not on the journalistic side, and that's what you need to do. don't worry about ratings right now, fine. get back to the journalism. get back to the people, bring

some new people in that can actually fit that mission. howard: tough on trump stories got you celebrated by the left, and positive stories about trump got you hated by the heft. >> right, yeah. positive or even just neutral stories got you hated by the left in the trump years. that's a huge problem. and it's, like, where did the incentives come from? so many journalists these days, and i would include myself in this, spend a lot of time on twitter. i think you can build a brand -- the. howard: but it's not the real world. >> it's not. and also when 50 people yell at you on twitter, you feel like there are really horrible things happening. howard: yes, definitely. >> so what happens then? journalists, especially younger journalists, may turn from covering the story a certain way because of what they've getting. that feedback mechanism, same way they get a hundred positive comments, they might start doing more of that. howard: more of steve's exclusive reporting in a moment. ♪ ♪

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howard: more now of my conversation with steve krakauer, author of "uncovered." all right, let's do a lightning round. you write about guilt journalism. what is that? >> guilt journalism is, i use an example of one of these beauty magazines, cosmo, putting some very large, overweight women on and saying this is healthy. that was the headline. okay, you want to expand the body image out there, but cosmo is one of the reasons we got in this problem in the paris place. they have some guilt over what they have done to maybe the perception of women over the years by putting these thin, you know, these stick models on their cover. so now they have to go overboard. and i believe that guilt journalism is a way of, you know, getting in the way, getting in front of potential cancellation down the road. howard: making up for the past. >> right, right.

howard: you just didn't get it. >> oh, now, we get it. we're guilty about how we handled it for years, so we're going to correct it this way. howard: glance journalism. >> yeah, this is where something happens, and whatever it is, mine, we see this all the time with these, you know, sad mass shootings that happen, suddenly here's the reason. this is why it happened, this was the motive. howard: by people who parachute into town and become experts. >> exactly. and no matter what happens, no matter where the story goes even a couple weeks down the road, that original way that story was covered is the way that so many people in the public think of that story years later. think about michael brown, hands up, don't shoot. even though we learned only a year later by the obama department of justice that never happened. so they cover things, they look at it on a glance, and then they move on. howard: and you used the example of the pulse nightclub shooting where it was a narrative that it was an anti-gay shooting. >> in fact, it was anti-american, you know, islamic terrorism. ing but, no, because it was a

gay nightclub as we learned years later, can't can even know it was a gay nightclub, just knew it was a nightclub, that's how so many people, it gets ingrained in the audience's mind. the correction never gets much attention. howard: right. and some people push a narrative, but in other cases it's just jumping to conclusions when we have very few facts which, of course, is a problem tv the faces all the time. doom bias. >> yeah. so i do think, look, it's always been a story that people talk about in the newspaper days, bu- howard: in the last few days, all you see on cable news is the alex murdaugh murder trial. >> yes, exactly right. that is an element of in the. but i connect this a lot with covid. when we saw covid, it was concern if you cover a story in the most, you know, cast rouse way possible, this is really, you know, the next double mutant variant, that was another thing that became this giant story, that is much more of a compelling story than telling a

more nuanced idea about what is the situation with covid in reality. and as we learned, i think, a lot more nuance -- howard: a lot more complicated with vaccines and all of that. >> yeah. howard: so, but if you can scare people or startle them, you can boost your ratings, you're saying. >> boost your ratings, and i also think in certain instances maybe, maybe a murder trial, just one sort of light way of doing it. but with covid? that's when you need the strongest, most fair reporting, most nuanced reporting because this actually matters to people and actually affects the way hay change their lives. a doom bias is disastrous not just for the press, but for the public also. howard: right. and we also got some of the most politicized reporting on that subject. steve krakauer, the book is "uncovered." thanks very much for joining us. >> thank, howie. howard: that's it for this edition of "mediabuzz." i'm howard kurtz. i hope you'll subscribe to my podcast, media buzzmeter. we take the five hottest stories ranging from ukraine to east

palestine, to dilbert and talk about them at length. don't. >> to hit any commercial breaks, that's one of the things people like about podcasts and i like about podcasts. now it's time for me to say we are back here next sunday at 11 eastern, and i hope you'll join me then. ♪ ♪ when your v-neck looks more like a u-neck, that's when you know, it's half-washed. downy has 7 benefits that condition and smooth fibers so clothes look newer, longer. feel the difference with downy. (vo) verizon has the epic new phone your business needs on the 5g network it deserves. boost your team's productivity with samsung's fastest processor yet.

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