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coronavirus overtaking wuhan, china. what do we do? oh, you know who we could ask? the wuhan novel respiratory coronavirus lab. the disease -- [laughter] is the same name as the lab are. [laughter] that's just, that's just a little too weird, don't you think? howard: here's i stewart on his apple f the show reflecting on the backlash. >> i thought it was a pretty good can bit that expressed kind of how i felt. and the two things that came out of it were i'm racist against asian people and how dare i align myselfs with the alt-right. howard: unreal. i bring this up, of course, because parts of the biden administration now believe the kid thely virus did originate from that wuhan lap lab. we don't know for sure, but the media and social media played a key role in stifling any debate. i'm howard kurtz and this is "mediabuzz." ♪ ♪

howard: ahead, brian kilmeade on his interview with ron desantis and the house investigating george santos. one politician who got beat up pretty badly over covid in early 200 the was republican senator tom coton the, though looking back his remarks were rather cautious -- tom cotton. >> we don't have ed that this disease originated there, but because of china's duplicity and dishonesty from the beginning, we need to at least ask the question to see what the evidence says. howard: washington post headline: tom cotton keeps repeating the coronavirus conspiracy theory that was already debunked, later correcting that to fringe theory. the l.a. beast said it was a conspiracy theory dismissed by actual scientists. another likened the comments to soviet propagandists who tried to convince the world that the

cia invented aids. and there was more. >> the virus conspiracy theory -- >> coton the has been criticized by public health professionals for gives just the whiff of credibility there on television and on social media to a conspiracy theory -- >> a lot of people on the right love that phrase, escape from the lab, because it sounds like a marvel movie or comic book. howard: but the debate shifted when "the wall street journal" on indiana thed a classified -- obtain thed a classified report in which the energy department found the idea plausible. >> the fbi has, for quite some time now, assessed that the origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential lab incident in wuhan. howard: joining us now to analyze the coverage in the new york, rich lowry, editor-in-chief of national review, and in los angeles, leslie marshall, radio talk show host and fox news contributor. rich, you write that there was a media-imposed taboo against even

talking about the possibility of a lab leak at wuhan, and you say much of that had to do with donald trump. explain. >> yeah. well, first of all, the media's supposed to report the information. it's not supposed to try to control the information. and that's what we've seen in the recent years, and this is perhaps the most flagrant and worse example of that. and one of the reasons that the media kid this, they just assumed because they don't like and distrust donald trump that he must have been wrong when he suggested this was at least an open question. and one of the things you should learn as a journalist from, like, two weeks after you puck up your pad and paper and start reporting is that people you dislike or distrust might occasionally be right. and it's bizarre, howie, that we have to say this to journalists, but they should have kept an open mind, and they didn't at all on this. howard: right. and sometimes if you're political -- your political adversaries support one view, you might take the other view. leslie, is it 'em embarrassing to look back now and see how anybody with a contrary view on the origins of covid-19 -- and

we didn't know at the time -- was mocked and minimized as a conspiracy nut? >> no. i don't think it's embarrassing. i think there were really two schools of thought and, sadly, it seems to come down along political lines. there were people, i would add to what rich said, i do agree with a couple of things. you know, journalists are supposed to report the facts and, second, there were ties to negative feelings about former president donald trump. but the ties to him went further, and it wasn't just about the lab leak, it was about the way he was characterizing the virus and the anger and resentiment toward the aapi community that was spreading throughout this country as we saw i when covid first came on. look, what we were doing, i think at least on my side and for if me, i was saying i want to listen to the scientists on this because prior to covid, as far as we know, there has never been a virus linkedded to a lab leak. they've always been able to link it to an animal such as a rodent or a bat, things like that that

were sold9 in this market. that, we found, was disproven by dna. but still, like you said, we may never know. so i don't thinkst the embarrassing, but i also don't think tom cotton when we talk about an investigation, i don't think that investigation needs to play out on facebook. howard: well, facebook is one of the entities, the giant social media site that literally would not even let you entertain the theory, and i guess i disagree with youen how some of this looks in retrospect. rich, how much of this had to do with the journalistic feelings about social justicesome. >> yeah. i think leslie just hit on the point, the presumption was if you said it came from the lab instead of from a wet market, that that somehow was anti-chinese or anti-asian-american which makes no sense. there's no connection whatsoever, you know? the ccp doesn't represent all asians or all asian-americans. it's a communist regime that evidence points that this may have leaked from the lab. we'll probably never ultimately know, and they covered it up. that's on the communists.

that that's on beijing, it's not on aces in general -- asians many in general. i mean, that's a ridiculous idea. clearly, this was another reason the media wanted to shut this down. the investigation shouldn't have gone on on facebook, but the debate should have. howard: yeah. >> we had this on all aspects of covid. there should have been an open debate, and you shouldn't have been trying to shut down one side, and we just saw it over and over again. howard: the energy county finding was reached with low confidence, but the fbi says this with medium confidence. but the question of facebook, leslie, is should facebook apologize or at least express some regret for cleating posts by anybody when -- deleting posts by anybody who had a different point of view on many -- >> no. howard: what? >> facebook started out almost like end ther. you rated girl on a scale of 1-10, and now it's become -- we have friends and we have a lot of falsities on facebook. facebook is not a news outlet.

it is a private company that makes money, and that's what they're about -- hu howe it is one of the most important media companies on the planet, and we're talking about 2020 when it certainly was wrapped up in a lot more politics and it wasn't just looking to find women for guys. >> look, facebook is a social media company. it is not a news network. the news networks across the board with, cable and non-cable, should have covered this as well as radio, print, online news sources. facebook, you have a lot of people out there that are giving disinformation when it's about the lab, whether it was at the time about dr. fauci and other scientists and medical professionals, and that could be dangerous. we were living in a pocket of a four-letter word called fear with covid, fear about everythingful fear about what we said, fear about what we thought. does it make it right? no, in hindsight, which is always 20/20. did we learn?

yes. does facebook immediate to apologize or explain? i just don't think so. howe. howard: rich, you might have a different view -- [laughter] and also part of the question, is it hard for journalists or should it not matter to go up existence experts say, scientists say when there's a consensus and sometimes, of course, these things turn out to be wrong? >> well, journalists should be willing to question authority. they used to be willing to do it. and they should go and seek out the dissenters. maybe they're wrong and crazy, but at least air their views. and very often these stories that did not happen. and social media, like it or not, is just a huge source of news and information for people. that's why there's been the struggle for years over what the rules will be and whether one side of the debate will be shut down or disfavored. and that the happened for the rationale that leslie is outlining here. one point of view was presumed to be kiss information and, therefore, dangerous -- disinformation and, therefore, dangerous. so it was okay to suppress the views about the vaccines, about masks and about the lab, and

that is just wrong. it's un-american. there should be a lively debate about this because very often the people that the establishment thinks are wrong, are crazy are right or have a point, and that was obviously the case here. howard: leslie, it seems like it comes down to this question of controlling speech. there's a big debate, of course, about this elon musk with twitter the which is the antithesis of free speech. so what if those taking the contrary position turn out to be right? a lot of times they're wrong or they're this off, but this isn't like a clear and present danger, don't take the vaccine, it will kill you. this was it may well have come from the wuhan lab. >> again, yes, absolutely. but, you know, i have six colleagues, talk show hosts, who died because they refused to take the vaccine, they refused to wear maxes, today refused to concern masks, they refused to believe that covid was as dangerous, they presented conspiracy theories, and they're 6 feet under, and their families suffer from that as well as their listeners and viewers.

and i think what happened with many of the social media companies is they were terrified of two things, they were terrified of being a part of any of that, they were also terrified about losing the bottom line because they're businesses. and they didn't want to turn out to be wrong, and i think most people, myself included, at the time were believing the scientists and the medical community because they had the most experience with viruses long before covid. and many viruses most of us have never and still never heard of. >> the irony is they turned out to be wrong, and they suppressed the wrong concern they're trying to suppress the falsities, they ended up on the wrong side which is why everyone should have a dose of modesty when there are big uncertain, unsettled questions like where it came from. let everyone air their views and let people decide. that's what a free society does and what we should co-- >> but wait, wait, wait, should facebook air holocaust denial? ing ed be a slippery slope.

andif you think of it in terms of a company and you put on the business person, ceo's cap, where is that the line where you say, okay, i've got to shut this down until we have more ed, until we concern -- evidence, until we know this is true? >> they should have a broadly first amendment-based standard, incitement and things of that nature shouldn't exist. otherwise there should be a free debate, and you shouldn't be afraid of that, and it's the what you sign up for if you live in the united states, at least that used to be the case. howard: i've got to get a break. leslie, i'm sorry to hear about your colleagues, but i do think the core of this is free speech. when we come back, the cancellation of dilbert, nowbusi author insisting his videocan wasn't racist. all it takes is eight minutes to get started. then work with professionals to assist your business with its forms and submit the application. go to getrefunds.com to learn more.

howard: the fallout from the total cancellation of dilbert has been growing louder. creator scott adams blew up his career with racist comments on his youtube show with hundreds of papers dropping the strip after adams, among other things, called black people a hate group. >> the best advice i would give to white people is to get the hell away from black people. i'm also really sick of seeing video after video of black americans beating up nonblack citizens. howard: the cartoonist also seemed acute hi aware of the impact of his words. >> most of my income will be are gone by next week. my reputation for the rest of my life is destroyed. you can't come back from this. am i right9? howard: but in more recent videos, adams blamed the demise of dilbert on the press. >> it was a bunch of rich white

people, you know, the leaders of newspapers, so it's a bunch of well-off white people who cothe not live around black -- do not live around black people. zero members of the media have reported what i said in context. howard: so, rich lowry, adams began with a poll showing a slight majority of blacks agreeing it's okay to be white. and then he goes to black people are a hate group, and now he says, well, that was hyperbole. sounds like kind of a lame defense to me. >> yeah. so, generally, i -- when someone steps in it, i just want an apology and move on. but this was so flagrant, and the explanations and defenses make no sense because, as we saw in that clip you played, he said all black people are a hate group, and you should stay away from black people, right? all black people. [laughter] there's no way to characterize it except for racism. racist. and then he comes back and says, well, i'm all about individuals, which is fine, which is correct,

but that totally contradicts what he said. so he was aware of the consequences concern. howard: yeah. >> -- when he said this, but, you know, once it happened, he obviously has some regrets. howard: yeah. leslie, scott adams now says what he meant was that black people disproportionately live in poor neighborhoods, and poor neighborhoods are likely to have a high crime rate. look, he's a writer, he knows the impact of words, and he didn't say it that way. he said stay the hell away from black people. >> he said nothing like what he's claiming -- [laughter] he meant, sorry. honestly, i think i have seen dilbert once in my life. i'm very familiar with it although not a follower. i was on a panel the other day where one of the guys was a huge scott adams fan, he listened to his podcast and he also would read dilbert, and at first he said i bet he did the on purpose. he's got tons of money, he wants to retire, and and he kind of wants to throw a grenade and watch everybody scatter but, clearly, that's not the case.

look, i think it's racist for anybody to say that anybody concern the it's not okay to be whatever color you are because we're all born the color we are. we don't have a choice in that whether it's a black person saying it's not okay to be white or a white person saying t not okay to be black. but what's also not okay is what scott adams said. that is blatant the racism, and i think it was the right decision that the company made. howard: yeah. >> and i know people say canceledded, but i think i tweeted this morning, he canceled himself. >> let me stick up for editors here because, obviously, it's incredibly powerful, just urn the on your computer, have the video camera and reach tens of thousands of people, whatevers. but it's also dangerous, right, because he might have had an editor that said, oh, there's this rasmus season poll, the editor might have said, scott, that's not a good idea. instead he says it, and now he'll be back pedaling for years and years and years. howard: being a sole practitioner has its positives and negatives, but clearly he knew what he was doing, it

seems. and i've been wondering, leslie, why this fabulously successful car on theist, once had 2,000 papers, seemed so angry. and he said on one video that at the two previous jobs at banks that he worked before he started dilbert he was told by his boss that he couldn't be promotedded because he was white. so the whole white resentment theory which has been around for decades including in newsrooms coming to bear on this, i think. >> i, you know, i didn't like that he said reverse discrimination. discrimination is discrimination, you know? i mean, no matter how you cut it. i've been the victim, believe it or not, with a boss who was a different color than myself blatantly telling me because of my skin color, you know, but you just move on. you don't work for, you know, that individual. and, you know, success is the best revenge, i always say. this clearly just adds to this is not what he meant was minority neighborhoods, impoverished neighborhoods and

disproportionate, you know, situations for african-americans. what he clearly meant was he's angry and bitter about things that happened in the his life, and he's built up, and he's blaming an entire community and warning everybody of his skin color to stay away from that community, and that's racism 101. howard: right. and those jobs were a long time ago. in fact, adams lost some subscribers to dilbert, you know, the final reason is because his distributer dropped him along with his agent. when he created a character called dave the black engineer to mock workplace diversity. but i still come back to, and you ouch thed on it, rich -- touch thed the on it, rich, why scott adams would do this. he seems to be blaming the media and reporters as a last resort. >> yeah. and, you know, it could have been that he just figured, well, i have this independent platform, i've made a lot of money and i can just comy own thing. but clearly he regrets it, and it's a huge reputational hit,

right, to what he said. and as i say, he's going to have to try to explain it away. and it's true that dei and this whole industry is based on creating a racial pecking order and a kind of racialism that is hideous and unamerican, but i in no way justifies what with adams said. howard: i think we can agree on that, and and it's just sort of sad, and there really is no defense. thank you both, leslie marshall, rich lowry. up next, brian kilmeade weighs in on the hostility between ron desantis and the press. ♪ ittle help. and to support my family's immune health, i choose airborne. unlike some others, airborne gives you vitamin c and so much more. it's an 8 in 1 immune support formula. airborne. do more.

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about tremfya® today. when aspen dental told me that my dentures were ready, i was so excited. i love the confidence. i love that i can blast this beautiful smile and make the world smile with me. i would totally say aspen dental changed my life. aspen dental makes new smiles affordable. right now, get 20% off dentures. we do anything to make you smile. howard: joining us now from new york, brian kilmeade, cohost of "fox & friends," the host of "one nation" and the host of the brian kilmeade radio show, probably a few others i don't know. brian, i did a detailed report on the state of perpetual warfare between ron desantis and the press. let's watch and get your thoughts on the other side. >> these are smear merchants. nobody trusts corporate media.

howard: ron desantis has had a hostile relationship with the national media since taking office and delights in fighting back. he's backing legislation to make it easier to sue for libel such as allowing plaintiffs to recover attorneys' fees. >> i have a platform, i'm fine. there's a lot of other people, i think, who get maligned unfairly and then really don't have the adequate recourse which i think would be good. howe the likely presidential candidate has been battling nbc's andrea mitchell over in the recent question to kamala harris. >> what because governor ron desantis not know about black history and the black with experience when he says that slavery and the aftermath of slavery should not be taught to florida school children? howard: that was wrong as the veteran journalist partially acknowledged. >> in my interview last friday with vice president harris, i was imprecise in summarizing governor desantis' position about even thing slavery in schools. -- teaching slavery in

schools. howard: but desantis says no one on nbc or msnbc would get an interview until she apologizes properly. desantis sometimes angers the hoping are media by not notifying them of public events. when the governor signed a i routine death penalty warrant, the liberal huffington post ran this headline: florida executes man used as political pawn by ron desantis. this monster killed a police officer, went to jail, escaped, stabbed this mom to death in a parking lot, and huffington post thinks he is the victim. perhaps the highest profile confrontation was with "60 minutes" which accused desantis of awarding publix the vaccine contract. >> the criticism is that it's pay to play, governor. >> it's a fake narrative. i just disabused you of the narrative, is and you don't care about the facts.

howard: desantis won that the round, and the cbs program unfairly ed admitted his comments. the governor's press secretary, brian griffin, told me the downside of his battles with the press is the public if isn't being served by journalists who don't like him. but when he faces ideological attacks from the national media, things may play out differently. brian, what do do you make of of the ongoing warfare between ron desantis and the press and does that help him in a republican primary? >> i think it helps him overall, howie. everything you pointed out, he's been right. if there was a time he was wrong, that's when the problem is, that's when the panels come out and say ron desantis is just angry or trying to be like president trump. but "60 minutes thing, the other situation with going against the ap courses and the curriculum to take these ap courses to get that college scholarship, he is not existence black history,

reconstruction and -- against black history, reconstruction and slavery. he said balance out the opinions and don't bring up other elements that don't belong in the curriculum. so service the misif characterization. howard: right. >> what he does is make these guys and women, reporters, come with the facts. and the facts are, i mane, the guy's got an ivy league education, ivy league law degree, he's now got five years' experience as governor and in congress. he's a pretty bright guy with a wide swath of knowledge and experience -- howard: i want to ask you more about -- all right. we'll talk about that more including your interview with the florida government and more of media voices urging joe biden not to run. so it's decided, we'll park even deeper into parking spaces so people think they're open. surprise. [ laughs ] [ horn honks, muffled talking ] -can't hear you, jerry. -sorry. uh, yeah, can we get a system where when someone's bike is in the shop, then we could borrow someone else's?

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howard: when brian kill e immediate went to the a florida dinerrer to take the pulse on the 2024 nomination, one name kept popping up. >> rapid fire -- [applause] who's your man, who's your

woman? >> my man, donald trump. >> donald trump. >> donald trump. >> the kristi noem. >> kristi noem. >> who's your man or woman? >> donald trump. >> trump. >> rump. >> a lot of trump fans. >> trump and nikki haley. howard: brian later asked ron de. sanities on his radio show about trump taking some shots at him. >> it's silly season. i mean, you know how some of this stuff goes and, obviously, he does his thing. that's kind of who he is. howard: as a journalist, brian, weren't you saying, come on, take a swing at trump so i can get a headline out of this? >> a little bit. and i just know not only as a journalist, i just know tactics. if he's going to get in the race, and all indications are, howe howie, i think you agree with me, you've got to have a tactic. how. >> -- how are you going to beat the front-runner, nikki haley called him, and she's taking veiled shots.

mike pompeo quo went directly at him. governor desan sis in every -- governor desantis in every poll is second, kind of likes confrontation, do you hit back? because the bigger picture is the overarching thing, it doesn't matter if you win the argument, if you outduel, verbally outduel trump and lose his voters, you can't win. you wasted all your time and money. howard: after your walk around that florida diner, trump posted on truth social a piece from conservative treehouse saying you were desperately trying to find some non-trump voters for your astroturf propaganda. i would think donald trump would be really happy because you're walking around, you know what these people are going to say, most of them say trump. >> yeah. i had no idea what they were going to say. i also thought it was interesting because ron desantis once was a congressman to that very district. he came on later in the show, and he said, brian, i used to walk there to the metro diner

and have breakfast once a week. so right now trump still has his firm base in northern florida. as far as donald trump and -- that's the first time i've ever been accused of being anti-trump in my life. [laughter] let's just take that in, i'll see where it lands on my resumé. here's the other thing, i'm just asking, and i was surprised everyone was giving the same answer because i think there's 6-7 really popular, trump-like characters who worked for trump or is not anti-trump like larry hogan said today. mitt romney's not running, nobody's anti-trump. so i was a little bit surprised especially with the woman with who had governor ron desantis t-shirt and she, i think, wants trump. howard: i saw that. it's a long season. i want to play a sound bite for you. president biden was up in the senate, reporters just screaming at him. we see this again and again, and nobody gets their question answered except for one, and let's take a look. >> what would you plan to

veto -- why don't you plan to veto -- [inaudible conversations] finish -- [inaudible] howard: so, first of all, there were two questions that he took, and why in the world, first of all, all the shouting, but this woman, why would you ask when are you going to announce your re-election? as if he's going to answer that question, and everybody knows he's pg around the countrying around the world. you know, we had a president who would walk over and go you, you, next, next, go, go, go. and he would answer the questions, somebody almost all of them were has ill. they weren't like what are you and melania planning on doing on your break coming up. it was always hostile and had some type of accusation about his finances or russia. and i just find it fascinating that all in this press is getting blown up on a regular basis, and they're not venting. but, man, do they sound angry

and frustrated when he just skirts right by every day, and he doesn't seem to be paying a price for it, i guess precipitously, in the polls. howard: yeah. the president doesn't take many questions and abe the president trump working the line outside the helicopter, whatever, he, of course, would punch back at hostile questions. so the atlantic magazine is openly calling for some democratic, anybody, to challenge joe biden on the grounds that most of the party, polls show, private interviews show that he's considered too old and would have trouble winning a second term. but who's going to want to take that risk if you're a democrat who could weaken the nominee of your own party who happens to be the incumbent president? >> i think he's a great writer, i think that he has also great insight and contacts, and i think he has concluded what i think i've mr. speakerred -- concluded, there is none. there is no mike pompeo, nick key haley, governor ron

desantis. people say governor polis in colorado has stood out as somebody who because a really good job. gavin newsom has been a terrible governor. the governor of illinois, you're going to come out with that report card? his biggest asset is he's rich. and then you have who else would come forward? senator elizabeth warren? she's a failed candidate once, does she need to fail again? is anyone clamoring to see senator klobuchar? the new governor of maryland's giving people hope, but he's been there literally for two months, so there really isn't a lot of talent. it's like rooting for the pittsburgh pirates. if you're a democrat, you want them to win, but they're not going to win this year. your best chance is with the9 82-year-old current president who at least mark leibowitz is pointing out, obviously, is showing his age. if. howard: well, he'll be 82 on election day or just about. look, all these people want to run, but i want to also get you in on george santos because the house ethics committee has

announced a subcommittee to invest a whole bunch of things including whether he violate ared conflict of interest laws in this campaign, can't make proper disclosures on the federal forms. this could drag can on for a long time the, but my question is why are the media so transfixed with this serial liar >> because it's only, what, a 5-vote difference between republicans and democrats in the house. i think that's it. the blatant way he did lie, and the fact is that he walks right through it, and he doesn't seem to have a problem with it. there's going to be an thetics -- ethics investigation, i mean, it is absolutely bizarre. i was talking to piers morgan last week, he said it's bizarre the way he answers questions about his lies that he can't defend, from the volleyball scholarship to his relationship with goldman sachs. he may not even be gay. then we found him cross-dressing and he's not. it's just amazing.

but i say this: one of the reasons why a lot of pollicses have held their -- the toll -- politicians have held their fire, they're looking at their resumés. and the thing that's going to get him out, howie, as you know, will be the campaign finance. if he lied about money or pocketed money that was e donated to him -- howard: exactly. >> that's the thing that's going to kick him out. but their obsession with it, that should be the top 20 the things you're talking about, it should be 19 or 20. the fact is they're not talking about the other stuff that's unbelievable. howard: right. but i think that there's also, frankly, the entertainment value because it seems like someone is always popping up and saying, oh, yeah, yeah, he lied to me ooh. oh, yeah, i know that guy, he lied about me. he stokes the story. always great to audiocassette to you, brian kilmeade. thanks so much for joining us. have a great saturday. >> go get 'em, howie, thank you. howard: after the break, looks like president biden's huge college debt relief program will be struck down by the supreme court. has the coverage been one-sided?

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howard: the conservative majority on the supreme court made clear the other day it will likely strike down joe biden's college debt relief program which would have cost $400 billion on grounds that the president can't take such sweeping actions without backing of congress. >> this is a reverse robin hood man that takes away from the poor and gives to the rich are. it's a political loser. legally, it's a loser. >> the white house feels they might be able to win by losing.

they're really going to anger, you know, younger voters who may be mad that this conservative can supreme court took away this thing that they were supposed to get. howard: joining us now, gayle trotter, host of the right in d.c. podcast and in minneapolis, tim hogan, democratic strategist and senior adviser to arc initiatives. sorry for that the. gayle, is the coverage tilting towards the supreme court is cruelly going to the take away this debt forgiveness program for college grads as opposed to the court is likely to rule that president biden never should have cone this in the first place? >> exactly. the legality issue is the one that the press should be covering, but this topic is difficult to cover in a balanced way because the terminology is loaded to begin with. think of the terms, debt relief, loan forgiveness, wiping out debt. so the coverage just from the way the terms are being put in there at first is very loaded, and you see very little coverage of the legality, the cost, the fact that taxpayers who don't benefit from this are going to

be covering the costs of college graduates with high paying jobs. howard: right. tim, there was a debate within the biden administration at the time that one faction said this was unconstitutional. the president made the decision go ahead anyway, but that's barely been mentioned in the coverage. >> it's been mentioned in some of the coverage, and congress it's been tilted too far towards the biden administration. you see people at "the washington post" still critiquing it, "the washington post" editorial board, see some support from the los angeles times, sos the mixed. you're seeing a sense of what the debate is. and the question on legality is important, and i think the press is zeroing in a little bit on the standing question which is whether or not people who have brought this case are injured parties. i mean, it's kind of funny that one of the entities that is claiming they're injured is a student the loan servicing organization. i guess that is the entity we're supposed to feel sorry for -- >> but, howie, "the washington post" back rack thed on this. howard: explain.

at the time -- >> yes. in august they said that this was a reach out to potential voters -- howard: expensive and unfair mistake. >> exactly. howard: how about now? >> and now they're basically e stenographers for the biden administration's brief by the solicitor general to the supreme court. so they're saying, yeah, he shouldn't have done this, it was a bad idea. but the supreme court shouldn't rectify the error, and the problem is that this is a separation of powers issue. and if the president can do this breathtaking action, then what is the court for? if the court doesn't hold him to the checks and balances, the power of the purse that the congress has. howard: i was struck by "the washington post" saying we still think it's a bad idea, but nevertheless, the high court shouldn't overturn the it because it would limit presidential powers too. tim the, most journalists and political operatives acknowledge this was during the campaign an attempt to boost turnout among younger voters, and it worked. and, you know, politics is part of the process here in d.c. but that doesn't make it legal. and that's the sticking point

here. and i know it can get kind of wonky, but the question is, is it legal for a president to act on his own and cosuch a thing. >> well, these justices, conservative justices are strict tex chowlists, they should look at the twea law that gives the secretary of education the ability to waive or modify student debt during a national emergency. it is the really clear. but now we've moved to this fairness question which is interesting as well, because 90 percent of the debt relief goes to people making under $75,000 to. we've seen as applications came in two-thirds of those applications came from neighborhoods where people were making less than $40,000, and we don't ask this question on a whole bunch of other policies. we have a farm if bill that goes to farmers, not everyone's a farmer. we have funding that goes to schools, people pay for that. so there's a fairness question embedded in a lot of policy, but nowst the advantageous for the conservatives to bring it up, so that's why we're hearing it. howard: gayle, one of the main criticisms is that this rewards

people, these are 10,000 and $20,000 debt relief proposals, it rewards people who haven't repaid their loans, and it shifts the burden to people who never went to college or went to college and did repay their loans. >> the exactly. and that's why we have the separation of powers. congress has the power of the purse, and they're supposed to decide the policy. biden was asked during the campaign if he had the ability to do this by executive order, and he said probably not. nancy pelosi said it would take an act of congress to do this. and yet for the sole purpose of trying to gin up votes for an election, a political purpose, they decided to blow up the constitution and push forward for the sole purpose of gaining a political advantage. and tim couldn't be more wrong describing the legal basis for this. the modifying and waiving a law that was designed to help military members deal with problems that they would have answering debt relief when there was a war going on or emergency,

it is a complete abrogation of the president's duty to uphold the law, to faithfully execute the law. and instead he is trying to grab political power in a breathtaking way. and the justices who are constitutionalists and textualists would be out of what they have, their responsibility to make sure that the president stays in his lane. howard: i'm the, i've got about a minute for you to respond -- tim -- one of the things gayle said is this is the sole purpose of grabbing power, but i'm willing to acknowledge that maybe joe biden believes this is a good idea. but there is the question about fairness, who gets it and doesn't. your thoughts. >> yeah. or maybe we are just seeing the government being responsive of the needs of young people. and there's an age distribution with the loan forgiveness as well. it's not going all to people who are in their 0 thes, it's going to people in their 30s and beyond. so, look, it's concern i'm glad we're having a fairness question. not everyone benefits from every

government policy, that is how a lot of this works. but, you know, where was that question when trump was pushing for tax cuts that were hugely beneficial to the wealthy? >> oh, and how much -- >> it's pitching -- [inaudible conversations] why are we doing this when concern the. [inaudible conversations] >> i am so glad you brought that up. howard: right. well, that was kind of aster owe version. i've got to end it here. thank you, tim and gayle. still to come, the alex murdaugh trial obsession has come to an end and why savannah guthrie left the today show in . hurry. ♪ so ♪ they release medicine fast for fast pain relief. and now get relief without a pill with tylenol dissolve packs. relief without the water. - booked our trip to vegas! - in this economy? what, are we rich?! ♪ ♪ are we rich? we could get a personal chef!

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howard: much of america was anxiously awaiting the verdict in the alec murdaugh double murder trial but not me. i could tell the guy was guilty, he admitted having lied of being

at the scene where his wife and son were killed, and the jury agreed after just three hours of clicks. i say anxiously awaiting because the trial was constantly airing on the three cable news network, often blotting out any other semblance of news. millions of people were hooked on the trial, and that's fine. but as tragic as this unspeakable crime was with, this was a local south carolina story involving a rich white guy that became a tv phenomenon because it turned into a daily soap opera. the tv bosses milkedded it, the legal pundits talked around the clock as with so many previous stories about murders or missing white women. now that more cough has been sentenced to life of in prison, or i'm glad it's over, but i still don't think it had enough national significance to warrant constant live coverage except that lot of people, not including me, wanted to catch. concern to watch. savannah gut arely disappeared from the today show. >> savannah left early, she wasn't feeling great, so she took a covid test.

it came back positive. as soon as he -- we found out -- >> wishing her a speed key the recovery. bill maher is being interviewed on cnn when jake tapper asked the host if he was worried when donald trump was elected. >> i was afraid for my own well-being. i thought i could wind up in guantanamo bay. i think i still could. i mean, he concern he was ranting about me all last week again, so i'm afraid of trump on a very personal level. howard: maher also revealed why he no longer gets booed by some in the audience. >> about five years we did concern i don't know what they did with the audience, but they got rid of the groaners, and it made my life so much better. and there are people who actually say to me, oh, i miss the days when you used to fight with the audience. maybe you co, but i don't. [laughter] howe i don't know, a stand-up comic should be able to handle a few groans. that's it for this edition decision of "mediabuzz." subscribe to my podcast, apple

itunes is a good praise to do it. kellyanne conway and her husband announced they are getting divorced, nobody could be shocked by this given all the animosity that happened when she was working in the trump white house. donald trump posted congratulations and attacked her husband, i thought that was odd. back here next sunday, 11 eastern. we'll see you then with the latest buzz. ♪ all across the country, people are working hard to build a better future. so we're hard at work helping them achieve financial freedom. we're proud to serve people everywhere, in investing for the retirement they envision. from the plains to the coasts, we help americans invest for their future. and help communities thrive.

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talk to your doctor about building new bone with evenity®! more troubling questions about our railways after another train runs off the tracks in ohio. twenty cars in a 212 car freight train derailed yesterday afternoon near springfield ohio northeast of dayton. no hazardous material was found on board. this coming one month after the february 3 derailment that caused a toxic spill in east palestine ohio. rede