♪ ♪ howard: when cnn announced it was doing a televised town hall with donald trump, some critics, including msnbc hosts, writtenned the network. -- ripped the network. how dare they give the former president a forum to answer questions. >> this is a pretty open attempt by. >> cmn to push itself to the right and make itself arracktive and show its belly to maga and conservatives hoping they will iewn in. >> let's be clear about this, this is not journalism, this is entertainment. howard: so days before the program, days before cnn host

caitlin collins had asked a single question, these people were saying that trump, a former president and the leading candidate by far for the republican nomination, should be barred from tv, banned, exiled, silenced because they just don't like him. but that's ludicrous. this wasn't a rally where he just gets to pop off. and whatever you think of trump, shouldn't journalists question him as part of the campaign? as it turned out, the town hall turned into an absolute train wreck, even many people at cmn being sharply critical. but the alternative, banning trump from the airwaves, is suppression of speech, and that is not journalism. i'm howard kurtz and this is "mediabuzz." ♪ howard: ahead, george santos versus the media mob as he is indicted for fraud. the first 24 minutes of the cnn event was spent on two of donald trump's true curing subjects --

recurring subject, the 2020 election and the capitol riot, and that insured a clash from the start. >> it was not a rigged election, it was not a stolen election. can you publicly acknowledge that you did lose the 2020 the election? >> let me just go onto you look at the vote, they found millions of votes on camera, on government cameras where they were stuff thing ballot boxes. >> i'm going to stop you there because there is no evidence of that. your own election officials testified to that. >> the presidential records act, i was there and i took what i took, and it gets declassified. biden, on the other hand, he has 1850 boxes. he he had boxes sent to chinatown, can chinatown, where they don't speak even english in that chinatown -- >> i've got to stop you right there. i would like you to ask the question -- >> it's very simple. >> that's why i asked it. >> you are a nasty person -- [laughter] howard: and cnn's own postgame show grappled with what had just happened. >> just seconds into the night with his false claim that the

2020 election was, quote, a rigged election. and the falsehoods kept coming fast and furious. howard: joining us now to analyze the cover averages -- do can coverage, robby soave and in chicago, iowa misha cross, political analyst for if siriusxm. robby with, it was unwatchable at tile. did cnn underestimate the challenge of fact checking trump this realtime as he steamrolled caitlin collins? >> i think you can criticize the format. at the end of the day, the audience people who liked trump, trump-sympatheticked moderates and conservatives, so they didn't agree with the kinds of questions she wassing asking. those are not things the audience wanted to hear, so it was a weird juxtaposition, and i think it's a fair to criticize that. however, the criticism we were hearing from aoc, from msnbc is the idea of doing it at all. look, he's running for president whether you like it or not.

you can't shut him down, keep him out of the i dialogue. so that kind of criticism, that this was dangerous -- aoc suggest suggested it was like retraumatizing sexual assault vix given the e. jean carroll verdict, he's going to speak, and it's the job of journalists to talk with him. howard: that's why i led with it because it seems to me we've got a year and a half of in this to go. he would say rigged election, caitlin collins would correct him, they would go round and owned four times talking over each other. caitlin collins, who was on this show years ago when she worked for the daily caller, in that first half hour, do you have any regrets about january 6th? what about terminating the constitution, the election wasn't rigged and so forth, and he would say it again and again, and she would try to correct him again and again. what did cnn expect? >> caitlin collins did the best she could with the hand that she was dealt. we all know that former president trump is a wildcard. he has bested some of the best in the business with, in the media business, people with multiple decades of experience. i think that she walked into

that as poised as she possibly could, but she was dealing with someone who was set to lie, lie and keep lying, and it was happening so fast, i think she attempted to fact check, but she lost control of that room very, very quickly. and donald trump had an agenda, it was to go there, to reinvigorate that the 2020 election was stolen, it was to deny e. jean carroll, that anything happened, that he even knew that woman even though we heard what happened just the day before, an op-ed in "newsweek" in the wake of that. and i think at the end of the day donald trump did what he wanted to do, but so did cnn. the main goal was to be a ratingsings juggernaut, and they used donald trump to do that. his main thing was to keep saying what he's been saying over and over again, 2020 election was stolen, he's basically not guilty of anything anywhere, and, you know, throw out some barbs that are just patently untrue about abortion rights and other things. it was very frustrating to watch. howard: yeah. well, trump came with a piece of

paper in his pocket about the timeline of january 6th, so he was prepared on that. now, everybody remember ares january 6th. there was the chance of -- chants of hang mike pence and gallows erected during that riot, so caitlin collins asked the former president this. mike pence says you put him in danger. roll it. >> i don't think he was this think danger -- >> mr. president, do you feel that you owe him an apology? >> no, because he did something wrong. howard: robby, the wrong thing is that he didn't overturn the results of the electoral college. collins, as we all seem to agree, was in a tough position. she's not there to debate him, but it looked thatd, the pro-trump crowd,y liked. >> right. i mean, look, she's not a conservative. i think she got slotted into this because she worked for the daily caller. there are never trump conservatives who were once on cable news, and you had someone

who understood where trump's coming from, you could have pressed him on some of the things he said. when he said the election was rigged, he said it's because the twitter files revealed this pressure and the federal government doing part of that. if you know more about his perspective, you could have pushed back and say, but those were your agencies. you were the president. you're saying the deep state is out to get you? why didn't you rein it? but she doesn't understand -- and i think that's something to ask him. howard: well, she covered the trump white house. apparently the former president was comfortable with her. of i don't know if he would have done it with some of the other people. anderson cooper, who during the four years of the trump presidency became vehemently anti-trump, he actually told viewers this: many of you are upset that someone who attempted to destroy our democracy was invited, continued to spew lie after lie. i get it, it was disturbing. you have every right to be outraged, angry and never watch this network again. that is a pretty defensive position and tellses me cnn was really feeling the backlash from

if its audience. >> absolutely. and i applaud if anderson cooper for coming out with the statement that he made. he also that talked about it further in that statement, why it was important to platform donald trump as the leading front-runner for the republican primary, as someone who has this audience. also that this is a large swath of the american public whether people like it or not, donald trump has the voice that he has because of people that support him despite january 6th, despite the e6789 jean carroll verdict, despite the ongoing investigations into claims of election fraud, despite the trump organization. we know he has an embedded group of people across this country in the hundreds of thousands who support him. and whether or not people want to agree with that, you know, is a problem in and of itself, but those people exist, and there's no way of quieting those voices. at the end of the day, that's kind of where we are, and i respect anderson cooper for saying legitimately what's going on -- hu hu. howard: the country is divided.

i certainly think the president has the support of more than hundreds of thousands of people, we're talking millions. since ameshia brought up the e. jean carroll verdict, this was the day before the town hall in which the jury found the former president liable for sexual battery and defamation. so she had to ask about it. let's take a look at that. >> i have no idea who the hell she is. i don't know who this woman is. [applause] and i swear, and i've never done that,s ask i swear to -- i have no idea who the hell -- she's a whack job. [laughter] >> prime minister, you did not testify -- howard: what do you do as a moderator when you're reciting the facts of that trial and the audience is cheering when he callses her a whack job? >> he has the right to defend himself. he's taken the position he didn't do it, and he wasn't convicted -- howard: right. it's a civil suit, it happened in the '90s, but if you're caitlin collins, again, it was kind of a circus atmosphere. >> well, it was. and, again, what aoc said about how you're traumatizing victims of sexual misconduct, i could

bring up lots of presidential candidates including the sitting president, joe biden, faces sexual misconduct accusations from years ago, and it's totally reasonable for people to conclude that was a long time ago, and we're focused on the agenda of the person. we don't have any evidence and, look, ultimately, people are not going to be making their decision based on that. they're interested in the policies. howard: right. well, certainly bill clinton was accused of a lot of misconduct. joe biden, i don't think, is anywhere near that level. ameshia, what do you say when the president -- you told the georgia official to find votes, he says, no, we can't do that, and then you bring up the call to the former -- current secretary of state, excuse me, to find 11,000 votes. she got her points in, but it was -- it did go off the rails as i think you suggested earlier. >> no, it absolutely did. again, i think caitlin collins tried as best she possibly

could. there was a lot of conspiracy theory thrown out not only about january 6th, but also about the ongoing investigations into election fraud in georgia. let's be honest, yes, there have been sexual assault or misconduct allegations against multiple people in our presidency or those who have run. but this is the first time in american history where there has actually been a sexual misif conduct case that literally -- misconduct case that literally resulted this liability not only for sexual abuse, but with also for defamation. that is a donald trump first k and that is historical for that reason. howard: right. trump, of course, is appealing. just briefly on the broader question, robby, the mainstream media and trump are never going to agree on the what happened in the 2020 election. the former president seems to have no inclination to drop kit, but the problem is many republicans believe it and don't trust people in our profession. >> but honestly, trump could do himself a lot of good by moving on from the summit. they talked about it for the first half how of that debate. you've got to pivot.

you've got to say, okay, you know what? joe biden's the president, i don't like how it went down, but here's how i'm going to stop him, here's why his agenda cannot be for another four years. byron donalds after the debate did that, did what trump could do which is move on from the question and offer agenda. howard: kellyanne conway and others have urged the former president to do that, but he doesn't seem inclined to take the advice. when we come back, george santos pleads not guilty to a justice department fraud indictment. ♪ ♪ we have this hotel to our...selves..? - how'd you get here? - kayak! they compared hundreds of travel sites to find a great deal on my flight, car, and hotel. - kayak. search one and done. this is going to be great. taking the shawl off. ok i did it. is he looking at my hairline? is plaque psoriasis making you rethink your everyday choices?

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howard: george santos beat the press when he ran for congress last year becoming a national punchline for his litany of lies, but it was no joke when the jus is disdepartment accused him of wire fraud, money

laundering and lying on house disclosure forms. the raucous media mob outside the long island courthouse surround ised santos, and he was finally, eventually, able to take some questions. >> the reality is, is it's a witch hunt because it makes no sense that in four months, four months, five months i've been indicted. this is inaccurate information, and i will get to clear my name. the media is not jury or the judge. sorry, are you accusing me or are you going to allow the process to the play itself out and allow me to clear my name? howard: robby, the media are mesmerized, the ludicrous lies, he was a volleyball champion in a college he did duh not a-- did not attend. now the tone of the coverage is changing. >> well, i don't know if it's changing, it's funny and entertaining. look, he deserves due process just like everyone else, however, he has admitted not to

these lying -- howard: a lot of other things. >> -- fraudulent behavior, misrepresenting his background -- howard: it may not be illegal to say i work for two top wall street firms -- >> i think he loses the benefit of the doubt, again, in the realm of public opinion. but, look, voters should decide who represents them, not those of us who aren't this his -- his district or colleagues in the house. ultimately, we should lean toward the voters get to tick. -- to pick. if they send somebody crooked, it wasn't wouldn't -- it wouldn't be the first time. howard: that is true. all the lies in the are resumé were exposed, but it wasn't until after he was elected. ameshia cross, i always felt like money might lead to santos' downfall. buying luxury clothing, paying off credit card bills, is and there's the mystery of the $75 50 # ,000 -- 750,000 he supposedly loaned to his campaign. >> absolutely.

nobody knows where that came from, his background in terms of employment was always very sketchy. what with we do know is that george santos or whatever last name he wants to give himself, he's got a million aliases, there's a lot going on here. and in this country when with it comes to wire fraud, there has yet on the anybody slippery enough to get away with that, so for all things, i think that one's probably going to catch him up more than anything else. howard: this guy, robby, thrives on the note ryety. he's like, wow, i'm not only a congressman, i'm famous. he enjoyed sort of fencing with the journalists there. and, on you -- can you know, it reminds me of what happened, someone of his own age when he ran last year quit after doing this self-oppo and they urged him not to run, he would be destroyed, and, of course, he did run and he did win. >> a person of incredible hubris elected to office? howard: you've never seen

anything like it. [laughter] >> look, they should investigate this fully, the indictment should be pursued, i am perfectly willing to believe there is underlying criminal behavior, but let's continue to have just as much and attention in the less glamorous crimes members of congress may have committed with the insider trading, all the people in congress who knew covid was coming and went and dumped stocks, bought stocks. let's not concentrate too much on this one because really kind of funny. howard: there is a lot of corruption particularly on the thing, you know, questions about insider trading, congress never quite tightens the ethics rules. ameshia, kevin mccarthy says he's not backing george santos' reelection, and again, he's entitle to the presumption of innocences, but some republicans have called on him to resign, and if he did, mccarthy with this razor thin margin, the democrats would probably win the special election in that long island district. >> absolutely. this is a key vote for mccarthy, and as long as george santos is there, he has

voted in lockstep with mccarthy. there's a reason why even after all of this shady information came out about george santos, it was released in local papers while he was running, the frustration is that you have in speaker mccarthy someone who's putting party over politics here. he knows that he needs that vote is, those razor-thin margins do matter, and if he's going to shove ab extreme agenda down people's throats, he needs a solid vote. it does not headache sense for him to get rid of george santos, he's going to let the voters decide. howard: ultimately, they will, depending on what happens with this indictment. i understand we've had some fun with it, some of these things are just so ludicrous, but at the same time the you've got to look at the doj, i think, not only needs to make an example of a congressman who has these alleged problems, but at the same time, you know, when reporters chase republican members in the hallway?

nobody's coming out and saying this guy's being railroaded do -- [laughter] this is the, you know, out of control biden justice department. he doesn't have many defenders. >> yeah. they're not -- the witch hunt framing that he has -- howard: yeah. where have i heard that phrase before? i guess it's kind of been copyrighted now. go ahead. >> exactly. donald trump, when he says that, he gets a lot of support that everything that happened to him was a witch hunt. he gets support from republicans. george santos is not getting the same level offing solidarity. i don't know, it look like he's made some inroads in congress. we've seen him chatting friendly with marjorie taylor greene who actually is a close ally of mccarthy. i don't know if she's going to come to his defense, it seems like they might have to cut him loose. howard: well, and not mitt romney who said he should resign. thanks for joining us. up next, why the chaotic crisis at the border has finally got the media's full attention, and later kat timpf on the perils of comedy.

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howard: the media have been on high alert since title 42 was lifted on the border at friday as the biden administration kept warning it'll be chaotic for a while, the president said is, as he ordered another 1500 troops to the border. news outlets that rarely covered border mess now treating it as a op story. >> you say the border is not open, but there is a subset of people who are being released into this country with no court candidate and no way to the track them. >> the system is completely broken, and we have many different crisis. >> the coverage of this looming change, the media has taken an almost apocalyptic tone. howard: joining us now, griff jenkins, fox news correspondent and anchor who's spent a lot of people on the border. i hope you won't be apocalyptic here -- [laughter] but it seems like we've moved from a situation where the media had only fleeting interest, and

now it's the top story, hourly live shots and mayorkas' press conferences are carried live. >> listen, no one is more surprised than me and bill melugin that this is not the top story of the day, but the fact is, the numbers are considerably down. just on monday in the rgv sector, on monday the chief said there were 3300 migrants encountered in just one day, in one sector right there. today we can report it's less than 500, a significant drop. and we can talk about the reasons why. but at the end of the day, the point you raised is that the border is not secure. it's still a major crisis. there are tens of thousands of migrants in the pipeline. it does continue to keep these numbers on a downward trend, otherwise we're going to be back where we are and the story of the year was the border. howard: right. and now while it may be true there wasn't the expected surge after title 42 the officially expired, 83,000 people crossed the border in the past week, so

some of them just came early. i think once the legal migration moved from being a problem at the el paso and border states like texas to almost all the states, new york city mayor eric adams saying -- he ripped the biden administration saying the city's housing 60,000 migrants and can't take any more. i think that made the story inescapable. >> it did. but look at the numbers governor abbott puts out frequently. i've sent 10,000 my grants to new york, that broke the biggest city in the country? here's the point, we've covered this border add nauseam for the two years, got more than 2.2 million illegal encounters. so the fact that it's low now does not ease the strain on cities like new york or here in d.c. where they've had migrants and certainly not on the border itself. we're getting help, by the way, howie, from the government of mexico. we've not been getting that until other media outlets started covering it. howard: sources are saying the administration will tell customs

officials to begin releasing migrant into the u.s. without a court date or the ability to track them. that's not even, but it is the certainly some people. isn't that what we're trying to avoid in the first place? >> of course we are because the catch and release policy of the past two years of this administration is the driver of the illegal immigration. now they're trying to get things like the c cbp one app where they can legally do it on an app. the problem is the demand is so high, it's like getting taylor swift ticket, it's just not enough to go around. howard: yeah. and i'm sure there's some migrants who don't want to decide by looking at facebook whether they're going or not. the hive pictures are everywhere, and i think finally the media are grappling with it. thanks so much, griff jenkins. >> thanks, howie. howard: tucker carlson who, as you know, parking lotted company with fox news recently, has announced he's starting a new show on twitter. in a video, he ripped the media as full of lies and propaganda and called twitter the last big

platform that allows free speech. elon musk, who was interview by carlson last month, was quick to say that he hadn't signed any deal with him, that carlson is subject to the same rules and rewards as any content creator. the twitter owner also saying he hopes some on the left will generate more content as well. the question is urn a contract with fox that is reported to run through the end of next year and pay him tens of millions of dollars, would tucker be in violation of the non-compete clause if he appears on twitter as opposed to a rival cable channel? that, at the moment, is unclear. a fox news spokesperson declined to comment. elon musk also naming a ceo, or finally, and taking some flak on that as well. next on "mediabuzz," huge media coverage for e. jean carroll's suit against president trump as he's found liable for major damages. ♪ muck prices keep going up. but experian is here to help you save on personal loans, credit cards, or car insurance.

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howard: on the most important charge in e. jean carroll's civil suit against donald trump, the accusation of rape back in the 1990s, a manhattan jury found him not liable, not believing that happened in a department store fitting room. but after just two and a half hours of deliberation, the jury found the form ther president liable for sexual battery and defamation of the new york writer and ordered him to the pay her $5 million. carroll made the morning tv rounds, is and trump put out a video denunciation. >> what else can you expect from a trump-hating, clinton-appointed judge who went out of his way to make sure that the result of this trial was as negative as it could possibly be? the whole thing is a scam, and it's a shame and it's a disgrace to our country. >> i am overwhelmed, overwhelmed with joy and happiness and delight for the women in this country. this is not about the money. this is about getting my name back. >> you have to ask yourself about those suburban women

voters. he was not found liable on the rape charge, he was found liable on the battery, sexual abuse charge. now, there was a time when that would have leveled a presidential candidate. we don't live in that time right now. >> he normalizes things that are not normal. he normalizes things that are not okay. if he normalizes things that are illegal. howard: joining us now from jacksonville, susan ferrechio, chief political reporter for the washington times, and kevin corke, white house correspondent for fox news. susan, you're the leading republican presidential candidate found liable for sexual battery and defamation, and many pundits say, well, maybe helps him in the short term. as martha maccallum observed, for any other candidate it would be a disaster. >> well, i don't think it's going to help him. the question is how much will it impact him if he's the general election candidate. i don't think something like this will stop trump from from winning the gop primary if he's going to win it.

this isn't going to stop him. once he is a general election candidate, the big question how is this going to the impact voters where it really counts? that's in the swing states. now women voters, how much are hay going to care about this, how much are the exits or the perked suede bl middle going to care. i think it'll be part of the mix. people will say one more thing to make them feel trump is just not the candidate for them or it may be something where they shrug it off because they're looking at president biden and seeing that as a worse earn. i don't think it's going to be something that really decides trump's political fate. howard: right. well, assuming the candidate is not ron desantis or somebody else. >> right. howard: kevin, i can't imagine this would help rump with suburban women -- trump with suburban women. it's not like the media are going to refrain from bringing it up. >> you're spot on, and i think it's interesting because i have heard some chatter in some political circles that seem to suggest in the short term this somehow helps him at least with his base because, as they say,

another abuse of governmental power -- howard: he's being persecuted. >> right. and we've heard that argument before. i agree with susan in the long term, ultimately, i think pocketbook issues, frankly, are what really likely will carry the day when it comes to 2024. and assuming trump is the gop nominee, i think that actually is a net positive, not a net negative. howard: susan is, i want to say again donald trump maintains his innocence and maybe he wins on appeal, but when he makes fun of e. jean kay roll, a 79-year-old woman as a whack job, i think many journal is were offended, and i think that colored the coverage. >> well, you know, it's hard to say whether it colored the coverage when it's already so slanted against him generally in the mainstream media. the case was decades old, it was past the statute of limitations. he did what he usually does, which is he discredits the accuser. and he's cone that not just in this case -- done that not just in this case, but whenever

there's a create irk.. -- critic. she may be an eccentric, i suppose, so he picked on those character traits about her, but he also firmly denied this ever happened. he said he never even met her, and he outlined the way she described things happened, and it did make it sound sort of impossible the way he described it but, of course, a jury found differently. so people look at it, will it to. fend women? probably. but you know what will offend women more? if a candidate runs at the republican nominee who wants to have abortion banned at six weeks. i still think the abortion issue will cost republicans long before this issue over trump and his character flaws. howe and in that cnn town hall, trump are are repeatedly refused to say he'd sign a national abortion banger but he obviously is pro-life and appointed three judges to the supreme court. kevin, did the videotaped deposition, and i was surprised

that got released. this whole trial got heavy play in the other news channels, not so much on fox. did the video deposition do him in? he's asked about access hollywood tape, and he defended it rather than dismissing it as locker room talk. >> that's the thing that really struck me, or howie, this idea that -- first off, i was shocked that deposition made light of day -- howard: me too. >> again, another really unusual circumstance. if this were to happen to, say, another president, for example, again, ill say the same thing. it's not just because this happened to donald trump. but i would argue that the fact is at the end of the day, again, it may be unseemly, but is it enough ultimately to really tip the scales against him? probably not this most cases. i think people know him well enough to have already made a decision generally about him. but i think the media really loves this story. they love donald trump. he was catnip before, he will be catnip in the future.

i think the ratings on that cnn town hall actually proved that as well. howard: right. cnn usually gets about 500,000 in that prime time spot, 3 million -- a although it was lower than for biden. susan, even if the accusations are true, this allegedly happened in a new york department store in the 19 is 90s, more than a quarter century ogg. -- ago. as with the stormy daniels indictment, do the media care about this a lot more than most voters? >> well, i think -- [audio difficulty] you know, trump is ratings gold, and this was a titillating story, so the media is going to be attract thed to it very intensely. i thoroughly expected that to happen. and ultimately, as i say, or it'll be part of the mix. it's a year and a half away, the election. how much it matters by then depends on so many other factors. whether he's charged in some other cases, i think it'll be part of the mix, part of the equation when trump look -- when

people look at trump as a candidate. howard: everybody knew he was not a choir boy. they knew what they were getting when he was elected. he had that affair with marla maples which i covered in new york, so journalists pounding away may not make that much difference. susan, great to see you. kevin, stick around. after the break, kat timpf on how she broke into stand-up comedy and ran into plenty of sexism. ♪ ♪

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howard: humor can be a minefield these days with so many people so easily offended. joining us now from new york, kat timpf, author of the new book, "you can't joke about that: why everything is funny, nothing is sacred and we're all in this together." can kat, you were a young, struggling stand-up comic, you met a guy in an atlantic city club, you took a bus to the hotel the, there were no rooms left available, you had to share one with this creep. when what happened? >> oh, man, there's a lot of storieses in the book, that is one of them. only when i arrived did i find out the condo we were supposed to be sharing was just his room with one bed in it. [laughter] things got divorce after that, you know? -- worse after that. he made a very aggressive attempt at hooking up with me, he sort of smear me afterwards. it was an absolutely horrible experience. it was a lot -- i took the bus back and actually had a better time on the bus than i did that whole weekend. i struggled a lot.

but a lot of the jokes in that chapter and all my chapters that i wrote were voc can jokes -- jokes that i was telling as i was sort of going through these experiences. howard: sure. >> i think when we talk about comedy and we talk about speech, there is this focus on you can say whatever you want and if it offends somebody, that's too bad. i absolutely believe in free speech, but i think that also ignores the way that comedy and humor can sort of heal us as individuals but also bring us closer together. because the way that i shared some of these stories, i was joking around he had a horrible self-tanner, so i called him jergens throughout the book, natural glow -- the. howard: right. >> when you can express yourself through humor and people listen, it can connect you with the people around you, and that's something that i found throughout -- howard: one little detail left out which is after you went to the atlantic city place and didn't get a great recession, you got bombed. and, by the way, i would have gotten bombed too. >> yeah, i sure did. howard: let's talk about 2008 and what you call the -- twitter

and what you call the outrage machine. you mocked in a tweat starrs -- in a street "star wars". i've never had any interest in watching space nerds poke if each other with their space nerd sticks. what happened after that? >> yeah. i also said i'd been too busy liking cool things and being a attractive to have seen the movie. i got really bad death threats, things along the lines of i'll be at your apartment at 8 a.m., there's nothing you can do about it, i'm going to kill you. and i actually refused to apologize because i think that when we sort of oversaturate with apologies, first of all, we create these cultural standards that are not this line with what we really actually believe. and also when you really do want to say you're sorry, nobody believes you because of that oversaturation. and in my book i talk about how what people say they believe on many issues and a what they actually believe, there's huge gaps between that because people are afraid of being canceled.

i think it's time to be open and honest with how we really feel. howard: good for you for not apologizing. what is the world coming to? now, you talk about outlawing hate speech and how that's a dilemma and if it were to be done, would the government have a role in outlawing hate speech. >> yeah. see, i've never understood how so many of the people who, for example, thought that trump was hitler, called him hitler also were the same ones we should have some sort of laws governing speech. i don't know how you can think those two things at the same time. you think this guy's hitler, but also you want this government, the executive branch to have the power to control your speech, right? i think that all speech needs to be protected because otherwise you're saying that someone else should get to decide what you can and can't say, and you never know who those people are going to be who are in those positions of power, and they might not have that same definition as you have. and as soon as we take away our speech, we are limiting our abilities to be able to connect --

howard: right. you say you're sick of oversensitive online mobs, and so am i, by the way. when justice ketanji brown jackson was asked to wine a woman and aid i'm not -- to define a woman and said i'm not a biologist, you didn't join the pile-on. as somebody who makes people laugh in part for a living, you're always going to be defending someone. does that make you rein yourself in even in the case like involving justice jackson? >> right. i think she gave that answer because she just pan inned when she heard, okay, trans stuff is coming i've felt like that too, but i've caught myself. ultimately, especially in come key and whether you're a professional comedian or just somebody at a party, you really don't know if a joke 's going to work this you actually try it. but i've also found that a lot of these rules actually for speech, they actually hurt the people that they're aiming to help the most. one example for me would be mother's day. this is the eighth mother day without my mom.

and i remember the first mother's day i was, you know, so sad looking at all the posts on instagram. the second mother's day i posted a picture of a laundry basket and a bottle of tide -- i write about this in the book -- and i said mom if's dead, gonna do some laundry, and i kind of laughed. obviously that it wasn't sad for me, it's devastating, but people in the comments were saying that's so offensive. to who? is you don't even know her. and somehow they see themselves as being compassionate for the way i'm dealing with my own grief. howard: you are still funny, and when you were 21, you were a traffic helicopter reporter. it was a long climb to fox news stardom. kat timpf, thanks so much. >> thank you for having me. howe the sad death of a new york subway panhandler, are the media making it worse? ♪ ♪

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♪ howard: it was a tragedy on a new york subway. jordan neely, a panhandler with a long arrest record, was mutt this -- put this a chokeholding by marine veteran daniel perry, but after several minutes, thielly died. we're back with kevin corke. kevin, this is a mentally ill guy who should not have been killed, but i certainly don't think the marine veteran, daniel perry, intended do kill him. perhaps because perry white and neely is black and perhaps because this cell phone video, if we can put this up, perhaps because it's new york, there were protests, the ooh media ramped up their coverage, i would suggest, in somewhat of a divisive way. >> i think you're right. race is an element here, probably a major element for the coverage. but this marine, obviously, has been charged. he has a duty to exercise due

care. now, i think the argument will be at least legally that, look, i was protecting myself and others around me. but i think in terms of the coverage, howie, i think race is a very big part of this. also the fact that crime is so rampant and some would argue completely out of control right now in new york city, i think that is also a major element. and that may surprise some people when the verdict ultimately comes out. howard: i can totally understand the fear having grown up riding the new york subways and, you know, some are walling penny a hero concern calling penny a hero. he says he acted in self-defense. there are other people who helped him, but there's no evidence that neely was physically attacking other passengers, and one passenger said, you know, you've got to drop the chokehold, you're doing it too long. at the same time, he's reportedly been arrested 42 the times, there was an active warrant for his allegedly assaulting a 67-year-old woman, a kidnapping charge for drag a 7-year-old girl down the street. so do the media pick sides here

depending on who they have more sympathy for? >> i think there's an element of that, but i think you actually gave the proper context. often these stories are hold, howie, in the press in sort of a quick flash. white passenger attacks black, and that's just simply not full context. the fact is this person was obviously mentally impaired. he had a massively long rap sheet. and as long as people understand that and that sort of comes out, i think people will certainly feel perhaps very differently about how this all play played out. howard: yeah. if you were sitting in that subway car, i think you'd be grateful that daniel perry tried to subdue him. the media tried to grapple with this, kevin, his mental health, that every city not just new york, but everything or is magnified when it's in new york, has crazed and potentially dangerous homeless people wandering the street, people who used to be institutionalized until that became unfar bl. >> -- far fashionable. >> it's one of the toughest things we're struggling with not

just this new york. obviously, washington, los angeles, it's happening nation wild, and i think that's another element where from a press perspective, people end to move gingerly around the issue rather than attacking it head on. yes, you can be someone who needs help, but we can also point and say bad behavior is bad behavior, and we as policy makers have an obligation to protect the citizens and protect those who obviously don't know how or don't have the capacity to protect themselves, howie. howard: yeah. if this tragic death gives rise to a real debate in the media and elsewhere about mentally ill people, this guy knew the top 50, somebody who couldn't help himself, i think that would be a positive outcome involving a very sad story. and i hope we don't just sort of, you know, do sensational part and move on. kevin corveg, always good to see you. thanks so much. >> you're welcome. howard: that's it for this edition of "mediabuzz." i'm howard kurtz. happy mother's day to all the

mothers out there. you can subscribe to my pod podcast, media buzzmeter. come join the fun. we are back here next sunday, 11 eastern. we try to cover the waterfront as you can seen here today from politics, crime, just about everything else. we will see you all then with the only media analysis show on national television. ♪ ♪ ok i did it. is he looking at my hairline? is plaque psoriasis making you rethink your everyday choices? otezla is a pill, not a cream or injection that can help people with plaque psoriasis achieve clearer skin. and no routine blood tests required. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. doctors have been prescribing otezla for over 8 years.

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the clash of the titans that never happens. the stage was set yesterday and i will for the first presidential caucus state. a matchup that was supposed to happen, basically, between former president trump and potential rival florida governor ron desantis. whether god and the way. a tornado warning forced mr. trump to cancel a rally he had in des moines. desantis, the weather did not stop him. welcome to fox news live i am eric