♪ ♪ howard: it's deja vu all over again. the same media debate that the has raged in this country for seven long years, a throwback to the days when minor players like carter page and george papadopoulos became household names at least for a while. i confess, i had to look up some of these folks who i had erased from my hard drive. starting many 2016, the media embraced the narrative that trump might have colluded with the russians and covered every twist and turn of the robert mueller investigation. mueller, of course, finding no evidence of collusion. then trump had his attorney

general bill barr name john durham to investigate the investigators and predicted he'd find the crime of the century. durham didn't have much luck in the courts. now, four years after he started, durham's harshly critical report saying he relied on raw, unanalyzed and uncorroborated intelligence along with seriously flawed information has plunged us all back into the same old, familiar debate, the story that seemingly will never end. i'm howard kurtz and this is the "mediabuzz." ♪ ♪ ♪ howard: the report by special counsel john durham exploded like a neutron bomb, and the media are deeply divided over his conclusion that the fbi acted on such flimsy evidence that its investigation of possible collusion between donald trump and the kremlin never should have been launched. first among those claiming vindication, the former

president. >> this was a coup that they were looking at. these are sick people. howard: and many of those on fox news and elsewhere joined in castigating the mainstream media's handling of the 300-page report. >> there are so many media organizations who have so much egg on their face today. >> i was disgusted. i was so sickened all over again by what they did to donald trump. >> john durham's report shows us that the same people that reckture you today about threats to democracy -- lecture you today the nearly destroyed it by using our intelligence agencies to target the then-republican nominee for president. howard: left-leaning outlets, the reaction was to dismiss and ridicule the durham report as what msnbc called a dud. >> millions and millions of dollars and nothing to show or -- show for it but some really bad, humiliating headlines for pro-trump newspapers. >> the durham investigation

ended up where there was plenty of reason to believe it was going to end up, with a new report about nothing. howard: and the fiercest critics, former fbi and intelligence officials who are now on network payrolls. >> do you realize the fbi lied to the media, and then the media reported the fbi lies? then the fbi guys get fired, then they get hired by the medi- [laughter] to tell more lies. howard: here is former fbi director andrew mccain cape -- andrew andrew mccabe, now with cnn. >> it continues to fuel a false narrative about alleged fbi malfeasance that continues to this day. howard: and this former mueller lead prosecutor, andrew weissmann, now with msnbc. >> what you have is, it's a big, fat nothing. howard: joining us now to an rise the coverage, mary katherine hamm who hosts the

podcast, getting hammered. great name. and lucy caldwell, a commentator with advisers for new democracy. i meant to say that durham found that the fbi relied on uncorroborated evidence. mary katherine, what do you make of the media mocking and minimizing the durham report in nothing to see here, old news, totally political. are they being ad the defensive? >> the it's if it's the also old news, then please point me to the retractions of the 500,000 stories, and and that's actual studies in journalism, 500,000 stories about this storyline that were based on very, very flimsy or non-existent and sometimes fabricated intelligence. this is a real problem. i was there in realtime the, okay? i was on set. i was at cnn, i was sometimes, i would say often the only person on set expressing any skepticism of this storyline, and i was looked at like i had a third

eyeball, okay? it turns out, in fact, there wasn't there there, which is what i kept saying and maybe we should make an idea to the idea there isn't and in this back and forth boosting by the fbi saying it must be important if the times is reporting it. that is not the basis for, what, now a six-year story make. and it's embarrassing that people don't care about it. howard: so everyone disagreed with you on cnn. >> almost entirely. and that was for mere skepticism, by the way. my mistake was in not imagining the audacity actually involved in this. howard: lucy, it is true that most of the embarrassing detaile embarrassing details about what the fbi did. there was bias in this investigation and the steele dossier and all that had been previously reported, including in two early investigations. but among journalists, i don't see the slightest bit of soul searching or questioning whether or not they overcovered and overhyped the trump-russia

collusion story for years. >> well, look, in media we often talk about time pegs, and i think the release of the durham report is a time peg. okay, now we have a chance to cover this story again, we have a chance to open this back up, relitigate it. that's what we're seeing with the durham report. i don't think there's anything new here. in terms of whether or not liberal journalists, people in the media are going to do soul searching and look inside themselves, i really couldn't tell you. but i do think the fact that the has been reopened in such a way that it's being repeated essentially as though, you know, gosh, gosh, actually all this horrible stuff happened and durham revealed -- that that has not come to pass. of the three conviction withs he sought, the only one that turned into anything was actually done by someone separate outside of durham. ful. howard: if you want to measure it by that, absolutely. but -- >> -- you could measure trump by that same measure, couldn't you? howard: i guess you could. as we played in the open, many

media conservatives claiming vindication, but a lot of the criticism of the fbi turns out to be durham's opinion. in fact, he ended up saying there shouldn't have been a full investigation based on this flimsy evidence, but there could be a preliminary investigation. and i think for the average person that's kind of a very fine distinction the. but politically, because most people are not obsessing on george pop papadopoulos -- george papadopoulos, it's a win for trump. >> yeah, i think that's true. it needs to be relitigated because it was wrong the first time. just as if you're on a sent or writing about this storying, there's a difference between assuming you know the end of the story and treating it with skepticism. and when this entire time people were having a conclusion in mind and they were building facts to get to that conclusion. it happened to over and and over and over again, both in the investigations and in the actual intelligence community and law enforcement and on tv. and that's a problem. howard: well, it was just, you know, every little, tiny development would be breaking news. the times is reporting that so and so might testify, and don't

you think though that this was a case where when finally the mueller investigation was over, because you say it was wrong, the media reported that no charges were being brought. just briefly. >> well, they reported that, but they also said there was some bad tough here. [laughter] look, people behaving badly is not the thing that was sold to the american people for all those years. what was sold tonight american people was a grand conspiracy orchestrated by trump and russian intelligence officers and that he was a plant. like, this was wildly untrue. and based on things that were wildly untrue and irresponsible. and, in fact, in some cases funded by a lawyer from, who was funded by the clinton campaign. howard: yes. >> that's something that should have been disclosed. howard: that was a pretty big revelation at the time, and of course finish. >> but it's a little cya, oh, we'll note that there are no charges, but it doesn't really -- howard: -- journalists believe, lucy, that $6.5 million, 4 years, didn't amount to much.

why are they attacking him personally? james carville called him a pathetic character. it's like the flipside of trump vilifying mueller. >> i agree. ad hominem attacks are gross on either side. this is a serious about -- conspiracy about a conspiracy. because you know who also was out saying, oh, there's something there? bill barr. in the leadup to the 2020 election, i'mgoing to give you a little taste, a preview of the durham investigation. guess what? it turns out there was nothing to see here. i think there's something a little more fundamental. we mentioned at the top the idea that people like andrew mccabe who was at the fbi are also being basically called upon as experts in this. yes, we should not be listening to cable news contributors as reporters, right in that's not what they're there for. that's a global problem. but that's a lot of what we're seeing, i think, in this episode. howard: you're laughing. >> no, i think clapper, brennan, mccabe struck all these guys as the dasher -- arbiters of

public trust when they have shown willingness to lie to congress. those things should be noted when you're talking to those folks as experts on the intelligence community and experts on public trust which i think is a -- howard: but given that they were players, i mean, i don't have any great problem with them being put on tv the for the networks they work for, but they should be subjected to a kind of grilling, the newsmaker interview and not just, oh, here's another contributor who says it's a bunch of bull. >> so should former trump administration officials who are now cable news contributors. howard: i think if you're a former trump administration official, people understand that. >> chyron that former deputy director of the fbi -- howard: i'm just saying the tone of the interview differs, i think, if you are a former player who now years later, who even remembers mccabe was the deputy director of the fbi. >> i do. [laughter] howard: it seems like you are still recovering from -- [laughter] yourover deal. >> i just think there's an

operation in gaslighting going on here, and it has been going on since the mueller report came out. there's been an attempt to just sort of backfill. no, no, we weren't really talking about that, but also it's definitely try. and -- true. and it's intellectually dishonest. i would like the media to be a great fourth estate. i would like it to be trusted by people. you'll notice its numbers are like used car salesmen. there's a reason for that. the dishonesty, the political bias, the believing in conspiracy theories that they accuse trump supporters or american citizens or unsophisticated observers of indulging in, they have indulged in on this story and they should cop to. howard: well, you don't have to tout conspiracy theories. what you can do is, well, somebody said this or, you know, it's been reported that, and then you have the famous headlines with a question mark, is trump guilty of x, you know, and by the time he's to not guilty of x at least in the legal sense, it becomes less of a story. so my question, lucy, is it's been seven years.

i can't believe we're talking about this again. is it ever going to end? is it going to go on forever and reach the point where only 5,000 people care about it or understand it? >> well, it's been going on for so long because bill barr in 20 the 19 initiated this, right? howard: right. >> this report is only just now coming out, and durham submitted it to merrick garland on a friday and released it on a monday. garland is moving swiftly here, and i don't think there's any conspiracy about how this has dragged out. when will it go away? i don't know, benghazi went on for a long time, and that was a bunch of garage, so probably as long as it takes until there's a new saga -- howard: let me just add that four people died in benghazi. i know you're talking about the end of the republican congressional hearings. go ahead. >> i also just think it matters when intelligence agencies spy on american citizens and hay do it with bad information and they falsify things. that should matter to many people. i would say maybe all american citizens, because we don't want those tools to be used for that.

howard: but you think this is a crucial debate but that a lot of people are kind of tuned out because it's been going on for so long? >> those that are not tuned out are invested, and they're so invested they're not willing to say, oh, yeah, this was a big mess-up. howard: some people say where are the apologies. i would settle for maybe in retrospect maybe we shouldn't have done this 24/7, maybe we should have been a little more restrained, but i'm not seeing-and-a-half. when we come back, joe biden provides remarkably little access to the media, but off the air there's one exception. ♪re t ♪ we're not talking about practice? no... cashbacking. word. we're talking about cashbacking. cashbacking. cashbacking. cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? ♪ ♪ charlotte! charl! every day can be extraordinary with rich, creamy, delicious fage total yogurt.

howard: president biden is famous for doing few interviews, but he has time to chat with msnbc's joe scarborough revealing the 80-year-old president will sometimes wake him up at might to take issue

with something he said in the show and vent for an hour. >> the thing about biden, he is cogent. and, again, five or six really good points that i actually thought were actually more insightful than most of the things i hear are from whining politicians. howard: mary katherine, why is joe biden so averse to doing interviews unless he's waking up scarborough to vent. >> is he on the record with joe? does he stipulate he's off the record? an hour, that's a long time. no, i think accessibility in presidents is very important, and one of the things that for all of his faults trump actually did was make himself -- howard: yes, constantly. >> often in ways that kneecapped him, right? howard: right. but he didn't care. >> and he wasn't careful about it. i think biden is not confident that he's great in those situations. and often hasn't been, and that's why he's not -- howard: well, he did have a presser in japan toed and on a

plane to come home leaving the g7 early to keel with the debt ceiling standoff. and, lucy, do you think perhaps all the media complaints and pressure about he doesn't take enough questions resulted in having this press conference today? because otherwise he gives the impression, and i've said this before with, his advisers are trying to the shield him because they're afraid he might make mistakes. >> that's the case. i think biden may be perfectly confident. i think that the team around him is playing some kind of three-dimensional chess with themselves. howard: he's president of the united states, he could overrule them. >> politicians are very reliant on their advisers, and i think they're showing him polling or focus group results, whatever, all of the stuff that political people rely on. they're so worried that he could go out there and say something that would reinforce the narrative that they're trying to push back against which is that he's old or he's just sort of all over the place when, in fact, actually lack of accessibility is the thing that reinforces that narrative. you'll hear biden in press

conferences or in interviews, he'll say something like i'm going to get in trouble for saying this or i better be careful -- howard: yes. >> -- almost reflecting that is what's going on behind closed coors. the best thing the his team could do is to loosen the reins because he does do well when he's out there. howard: sometimes he stumbles, sometimes he doesn't. he was fine today. obviously, understands the issues. let me play a sound bite, five questions and a few extra including this one from fox's peter doocy. >> reporter: would you be blameless in a default situation? >> i think there are some maga republicans in the house who know the damage that it would do to the economy, and because i am president and the president's responsible for everything, biden would take the blame. howard: and he went on to say that that would make it easier for the other side to defeat him for re-election. balling as a deal to hurt --

balking at a deal to hurt joe biden? >> why did a lot of them sign on to the original house deal that would prevent a default? that would seem to be counterproductive. look, i think the president has been put in a bit of a corner, painted himself into a corner because they said we're not going to negotiate assuming the republicans might not get it together and get anything passed, but they did more than a month in advance, and i think that's the problem that's been facing them for the last several weeks now. howard: yeah. on the other hand, lucy, i always thought this would come out, i don't think there's going to be default, at the last minute they'll come up with some face-saving compromise. it's a totally manufactured crisis, obviously. but biden will say, well, i didn't negotiate on the debt ceiling. the spending cuts are something else, and kevin mccarthy will say, well, no, he caved and did give us at least some of the spending cuts. >> i'm not sure it's a manufactured crisis. i do think it is certainly a case where the debt ceiling coverage, it is very hard to cover because it is actually

quite nuanced and quite complicated. the is one of the few countries with a debt ceiling, and it's hard for even regular. >> consumers of news who are sophisticated to understand exactly what it is that's being negotiated. it's whether or not to authorize continued funding of the spending we've already -- howard: well, it's paying your debts. you already spent this money. >> yes. but in terms of what happens i think on the debt ceiling in particular, it becomes kind of a proxy war for every other ideological litmussest. and and i think in washington people talk about the secret congress which is actually kind of an appalling idea, the idea that there are these groups of people, bipartisan, who want to get stuff cone and they're doing it in secret because doing things together to get stuff cone in public hurts your -- done in public hurts your perception with your base. so that's what we're seeing here that's so appalling. howard: i think it is a manufactured crisis in the sense that they could settle this today. of course, that might just kick the can down the road, but the media loves it because they get to cover it every day.

will there be a crisis, what's going to be the international impact? but it'll be settled. >> as somebody who needs a deadline to get anything done -- [laughter] sometimes the kabooky is necessary to get us where we're going. it's a very in-depth story, and i appreciate the veterans on the hill who do the good work on digging through the minutiae on this. howard: yes. and on that note, mary katherine ham, louis key caldwell -- lucy caldwell, thank you next. up next, what really happened in that terrifying incident between harry, meghan and the paparazzisome i heard about the payroll tax refund that allowed us to keep the people that have been here taking care of us. learn more at getrefunds.com. what's the #1 retinol brand used most by dermatologists? it's neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair® smooths the look of fine lines in 1-week, deep wrinkles in 4. so you can kiss wrinkles goodbye!

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howard: harry and meghan say their car was chased in new york by plenty of scoop-chasing paparazzi leaving the sort of roy i y'all couple angry and badly shaken. a spokeswoman telling "the washington post" this relentless pursuit lasting over two hours result ared in multiple vehicle collisions involving oh drivers

and two nypd officers. the nypd can has a milder version of event. -- events. joining us now, the author of "prince harry, the inside story." don't we have to start with the fact that harry's rife was utterly traumatized by the death of his mother diana and, therefore, how he would experience whatever happened might be very different than other folks. >> i think that's a very sensible place to start, to be honest with this discussion, because, you know, certainly in britain the lasting image of prince harry was of the 12-year-old boy following his mother's coffin on the day she was, we had her funeral. so i think we can't take this lightly when he released his statement talking about a near catastrophe. i think that was the reason why all of a sudden service the a huge story -- it was a huge story over here. howard: right. new york mayor with eric adams said it was a chase, the conduct was a bit reckless and

irresponsible and the two nypd officers could have been injured. but adams doubted that it was a 2-hour high-speed chase which seems kind of farfetched in manhattan saying even a 10-minute chase is dangerous in new york city. >> well, that's right. it wasn't long after the statement came out that -- and newspapers over here were sort of braced for the worst really thinking here we go again, you know, what are the paparazzi got up to this time. but it wasn't long before it was as though there wasn't quite that much substance, shall we say, or to the strength of the statement that harry has released. so it's the caused a bit of a backlash really, if i'm honest. i think people are saying, well, frankly, harry and meghan just exaggerated what they went through. ow howe yeah. i've seen a lot of that. some in the media here are just ripping the couple. not sure what they would have to gain by exaggerating this, but a taxi driver who drove harry and

meghan for part of the way says, tells "the washington post" they were pursued by two hondo -- hondas. they were coming next to the car, took pictures disease a -- as we stopped and were filming us, and and the security guards asked the cabby to take them back to the police station. so some elementses of this have been confirmed, in my view. but on the other hand, i'm sure that the london tabloids who are particular -- who aren't particularly in love with harry and meghan had a field day with this. >> well, to be honest, i worked for "the sun" in britain back in 2008, it was a long time ago now. we had a deal done with william and harry where if we were offered photographs that had been taken by paparazzi, we would check with the palace first to make sure there had been no pursuit. and if there was any suggestion of a pursuit, we wouldn't use the pictures. unfortunately, that relationship

between harry and the british media in particular has broken down, so there's no way really to check it anymore regardless of how exaggerated or not harry wants to the try and portray the situation. howard: yeah. i think that's a really fair assessment and, obviously, they're huge celebrities here in the states. duncan, thanks very much for your insights. next on "mediabuzz," the press and tech tie -- tycoons are warning that artificial intelligence could threaten our society. is that hyperbole? the question bait in a moment. t. darn it, kyle! and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, you could end up paying for this yourself. so get allstate. oh booking.com, ♪ i'm going to somewhere, anywhere. ♪ ♪ a beach house, a treehouse, ♪ ♪ honestly i don't care ♪ find the perfect vacation rental for you

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>> i think there's a strong probability that it will make life much better and that we'll have an age of abundance. and there's some chance that it goes wrong and destroys humanity. hopefully, that chance is small but it's not zero. >> my worst fears are that we cause significant -- we, the field, the technology, the industry -- cause significant harm to the world. i think if this technology goes wrong with, it can go quite wrong. howard: joining us now from connecticut, charlie gasparino, senior correspondent at fox business network. i love how low key musk was when he said some chance it will destroy humanity. but the media are filled with all these stories every single day, and a reuters poll, charlie, found that the 61% believe artificial intelligence threatens the future of humanity. 22% disagree, the rest undecided. are we needlessly scaring the country? >> you know, you have to ask about the motives of the people that are saying this. i mean, listen, elon musk, like him for a lot of reasons, but

he's behind the curve in 56789i -- howard: and wants to catch up. >> he wants to catch up to the what's going on with larry page and chatgpt. so remember, he's talking his book a lot. and, you know, here's the other thing, howie, i remember when the internet was going to destroy society, how amazon was going to put local bookstores out of, bookstores out of business, and that was going to be horrible. that western going -- the internet was literally going to change hour we live, and nobody was going to work. you know, these doomsday scenarios never work out. i mean, obviously, nuclear power can be used both for good and bad. i, i'm pretty sure, you know, a.i. is in the same boat. howard: all right. so you're throwing a nuclear missile at me to make your point. [laughter] nevertheless, here's what turned me around. new york times story on microsoft executives or researchers who told the chat bot here we have a book, nine eggs, a laptop, a bottle and a nail. tell me how to stack them onto

the each other in a stable matter. and it did. i would have cracked the eggs. so the company says that's the kind of human intelligence, awareness of the physical world, that tells us that chat bots are only at the beginning of what they'll ultimately be able to accomplish. >> can't you find that also on the internet to you did some searching? howard: maybe. >> yes. yes. i mean, i think what people have to get their hands around is what is this as of now. it's literally one big search engine. and are you really going to be worried about the existential threat of a search engine? and, you know, i'm not there yet. i'm not saying we shouldn't watch it. of course, watch it, you know, make sure it doesn't destroy humanity. i'm all for that. howard: i'm all for that too. >> but, you know, stopping progress for like an out of the sort of money, i'll give you a finance term, existential fear is just not the way you advance society. it's the never been that way. we would be, you know, riding

around on horses. you would have biggie whip salesmen instead of -- buggy whip salesmen if that's the approach we took. howard: this may look very different in six months or a year, because now these chat bots can conjure up images, fake image, and they're also sometimes wrong which is a problem that none of these companies have solved. even if chat bots aren't staging a coup, they've already changed the culture at schools. there's a lot more cheating using chat bots. businesses, some people will lose their jobs, others their jobs will change. so you can't -- and i'm not saying you are, but you can't just dismiss it as, well, you know, there was a lot of hype about the internet too. i mean, this seems very real. >> -- the internet? can't you cheat using the internet the same way? i mean, almost the same way. howard: well, but you didn't used to be able to have somebody write your homework essay. >> no, but -- well, if you're going to trust them to write your homework essay. you can go to the internet and

find all sorts of stuff and copy and paste and do whatever you want to do via the internet. this is a step making it easier, but i still don't see the exist tin -- existential threat. until the day comes when chatgpt writes my new york post column, then i'll be in the elon musk camp. howard: well, yeah. and then you'll be giving up some very valuable real estate. so, look, sam altman, ceo of openai, testifies on the hill this week that he wants the government to regulate a.i. how often do you see that happening? what can the feds really do? >> you know, that's a good question. i do have a worry about that. my one question about a.i. is who's inputting the matter. i mean, i think that is kind of something that we should pay attention to. is this going to be another political thing. i mean, are we going to have left-wing, silicon valley types, you know, arranging the answers that come out of the chatgpt.

that, to me, is something that maybe government should look at, like who exactly, why, what are the standards, you know? that wouldn't be so bad. there are standards in broadcasting. you can't just broadcast anything. i mean, cable it's a little laxer, but that might be something the government will want to do. is this going to be a real non-biased forum with real information that's being dispensed to america, or are we going to get another silicon valley, you know, indoctrination center, session of progressivism. that is something to worry about. howard: well, you know, right-wing people could also construct politicized chat bots. so i take your point that the apocalypse is not tomorrow. you can keep writing your new york post column. let me play one other bite from this interview elon musk did. he has said that he voted for joe biden. listen to this. >> you're not, obviously, you're not happy with biden. >> don't we all just want a normal human being? [laughter] howard: what does he mean? like biden's too old?

what's he getting at in. >> >> i think he believes biden went so far to the left, and if you follow elon musk which i have and some of his political discussions often on twitter that he owns now, i i mean, he believes the democratic party went so far to the left it's, in his view, abnormal. everything from the wicked progressivism in the boardroom to the open sort of advocacy of trans lifestyle for children. i mean, if you listen to him -- howard: right. >> -- he believes that is not his degree of normal. howard: well, he also believes that the new york times and washington post and others have moved way too far to the left, and he's attacked them as well. good discussion, charlie. hope we're -- we'll have it again in six months, and we'll see who's right. [laughter] after the break, ron desantis finally pushing back against donald trump a bit as he prepares to join the presidential race the this week. but has he waited too long? ♪ ♪

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including infections that can be life threatening and cause death, slow heart rate, liver or breathing problems, increased blood pressure, macular edema, swelling and narrowing of the brain's blood vessels, and increased risk of pml-- a rare brain infection that usually leads to death or severe disability. tell your doctor if you are pregnant or plan to be. don't let uc stop you from doing you. if you're living with moderate to severe ulcerative colitis, ask your doctor about once-daily zeposia. howard: ron desantis who the "wall street journal" first reported will jump into the presidential race this week, is drawing media attention for doing something unusual, swiping back at donald trump over criticism of the 6-week abortion ban he signed in florida. the former president taking credit for the end of roe v. wade called the florida ban too harsh. >> desantis, or ron desanctimonious, as i call him, he came out with six weeks.

other people agree with it, a lot of people don't. >> protecting an unborn child with a detectable heartbeat is something that almost 99% of pro-lifers support. i signed the bill, i was proud to do it. he won't answer whether he would sign it or not. howard: joining us now on the coverage in person, susan ferrechio with the washington times and richard fowler, radio talk show host and fox news contributor. abortion's a tricky issue for republicans, but the media question is whether -- will the media coverage of ron desantis now that he's jumping in change if he starts swinging back at the former president? >> well, he hasn't been able to do it effectively yet, but i think abortion's one area where he can chip away at trump's advantage right now. so he's got a big national advantage is. but to win the nomination, of course, it's a state by state fight. howard: yeah. >> desantis will start getting more attention if he does focus on the abortion issue. that's going to be a central theme as we get into iowa, new

hampshire, south carolina, all the early caucus states it's going to be a number one issue, and desantis is trying to get to right of trump which will give him an opportunity -- howard: yeah, i think he wans -- wants to run at trump on the right on several issues. trump refuses to say which restrictions he'd support. he deflected at that that cnn town hall about where he'd sign a national ban. i'm surprised that didn't make more news. >> i think what you see ron desantis doing and the media covering rather accurately is he's trying to run from the right. here is the problem for ron desantis when you run from the right against a donald trump who won't -- there's a reason why he won't talk about where he is on abortion, because he knows if you win this nomination, you now have to run in the general election. in the general election, you need to win in a place like michigan, like ohio, you need to win in a place like wisconsin where they don't have 6-week abortion bans. so running on a 6-week abortion ban there is not only problematic, but it turns off a lot of suburban voters who

donald trump lost in the midterm elections. howard: you can't win the election unless you win the primary first. desantis is taking a meeting from the pundits now that disney's bob iger has pulled the plug on a billion dollar project, 2,000 jobs in the orlando area. the media certainly portraying this as part of the feud, the desantis people say, you know, changing economic conditions, he wanted to get rid of this thing anyway. but just in termses of political optics, i think desantis has taken a hit on this. >> well, disney employs 77,000 people in central florida. this is 2,000 people, they were already having an issue to get those folks to move to orlando. that's a little back story that people of florida know about but the national media really doesn't cover. i don't think the public really cares overall whether desantis is feuding with disney -- howard: they do in florida. >> well, not even that much there. disney a's faced a lot of backlash over their woke agenda. look at some of their movies have flopped, they changed their ceo. they recognize that the public

has a limited tolerance for how far to the left they push. and i think that will be reflected in this fight with -- i don't know how well he'll do in court. it sounds like this obama-appointed judge may be favoring disney in this battle over the free speech issue. so desantis could end up looking like a loser if that goes the other way in court. howard: in a call with coe nors, and a new york times reporter 457 to be able to listen to it, he made his pitch. he said there's three people who can be president, me, trump or joe biden. but, of course, he hasn't said that publicly and he hasn't said publicly that that trump lost in 20 to, because in the gop you're not allowed to say that. [laughter] >> you aren't allowed to say that if you're a member of the gop. where i disagree with susan, i think this disney issue has turned into something bigger for desantis. we saw a story that really speaks to where the desantis policies are taking the country. there was a teacher who showed a movie, right, in her fifth grade classroom.

and as a result of that, now every child in this classroom is basically being deposed by a -- howard: you can blame that on the governor? >> yeah, because this is part of the don't say gay bill that he passed, and now it's showing up in classrooms, and a lot of americans will say this is going to become a bigger issue if ron desantis decides to announce and they're going to say, is this going to happen to in my classroom in new york? in virginia? in illinois -- >> show some of the books and movies and things that they have pulled off the shelves? they border on pornographic -- >> but, susan, but they also banned the ruby bridges disney movie, and that is what is problematic -- knox. >> it's the they want -- >> well, you're saying something's wrong with watching a ruby bridges movie? howard: all right. you guys can take this outside because i want to get to this. the trump people send me and every other journalist two minutes after a new poll comes out they text it to me and it says trump up by 30, by 40 points. 9 the -- and the view of the

desantis camp is it's so early and also that he has high favorables in those early states. so are the pundits making us think this race is over because they love national polls. >> i don't think this race is over at all. i think it's going to be -- howard: you don't think so, but don't you think anyone watching tv -- >> i don't think so. i think the fact that you have a tim scott jumping in this week, ron desantis jumping in will say that this is not. but what i will say is if this is a competition who can run farther to the right, then this will be a problem for the entire republican field -- howard: okay. i've literally got half a minute. desantis has muffled his message by only going on with conservative outlets. it seems to me he's kind of limited the reach of his message. >> i don't know. i think this is a new game plan that republicans are using in general because they're fed up with the mainstream media, so they're making it -- they're doing things their own way, and i think desantis has done that successfully, and i think the republican party is sort of following suit in in terms of

limiting how they do debates. i think we're going to see things differently this electio- howard: you may be right, but it seems to me that donald trump always enjoys going on and doing combat with unfriendly outlets, shall we say, because he drives the news cycle. good to see you in person, susan, richard. still to come, a cnn anchor rips her network against that trump town hall and martha stewart's latest comeback. ♪ home insurance options. man...i told my wife i'd be in here for hours. what do we do now? we live... ♪ save time and money with progressive's homequote explorer. what you do afterwards, is up to you. oh, whoa, i was actually just thinking i would take a nap. pretty tired. okay.

howard: time for me to race the clock. go. veteran cnn anchor christiane amanpour disagrees with her network's decision to host donald trump in that town hall. >> we know trump and his tend e

says, everyone does. -- tendencies. he just seizes the stage and dominates no matter how much flak the moderator tries to the aim at the incoming. it doesn't often work. howard: and then, well, she went even further. >> maybe we should revert back to the newspaper editors and tv chiefs of the 1950s who in the end refused to allow mccarthyism onto their pages unless his foul lies, husband witch hunts and his rants reached the basic evidence level required in a court of law. howard: mccarthyism? not allowed in newspapers? she left no doubt that she despises donald trump. and the moderator of that town hall, caitlin collins -- who had a rough introduction to much of the public -- has been tapped as the new anchor of the 9 p.m. eastern show. is that really what viewers want in prime time? new york times has disclosed

sed that the medical condition of 89-year-old diane fine sign is far worse than she had acknowledged. complications from thing isings has paralyzed the left side of her face, and she also suffers from a case of potentially debilitating encephalitis. a slate reporter who spoke to her in the hallway said she had forgotten he'd been away washington for three months. i first interviewed feinstein when she was san francisco mayor, but even some democrats are telling reporters she should resign rather than wait until her term expires after the election. it's just sad. a former aide to rudy giuliani has made all kinds of salacious allegations in a lawsuit against president trump's former lawyer, drawing heavy coverage on the other cable news channels but only a brief with mention on fox. a spokesman for giuliani says he vehemently and completely denies the allegations and that this is an attempt at extortion. noel dunphy says the former

mayor forced her to engage in sex, sometimes violent sex, including when he was on the phone with trump and others. she also alleges giuliani made sexist, racist and anti-semitic comments, again, denied by rudy, and she has audiotapes to back her up. we'll see what she produces. 81-year-old martha stewart, who's gone from home-decorating guru to the insider trading convict to rehabilitating herself is posing in a suit with a plunging neckline on the cover of "sports illustrated". >> to be on the cover at my age was a challenge. i mean, they were prodding me and pinching me and pouring water over my head. howard: "the washington post" declares she breaks the internet. just made it. always wanted to break the internet. that's it for this edition of "mediabuzz." i'm howard kurtz. subscribe to my podcast, media

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talk to your doctor about building new bone with evenity®! we began with fox news alert. president biden meeting with ukraine's president zelenskyy earlier today at the g7 in japan. announcing additional round of military aid to ukraine in his fourth russia. this comes as a summit wrapped up hello everyone welcome to fox news live. i am arthel neville. steve or hello everyone i'm eric shawn will have more and that in a moment on the biden zelensky meeting also joining us out in just a few minutes. presidential