low blood sugar risk. tell your doctor if you're nursing, pregnant, or plan to be. side effects include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea which can cause dehydration and may worsen kidney problems. (woman) i can do diabetes differently with mounjaro. (avo) ask your doctor about once-weekly mounjaro. howie: i've got to start with this. msnbc talked about donald trump all day on the day of his arraignment all unfavorable same for cnn mostly unfavorable. they took aerial shots of his plane and even got their own van s into his caravan. all the hosts and pundits and former prosecutors saying much the same thing they said the day before and the day before that, but, when trump spoke for about a minute at washington's national airport they refused to carry it. only fox news aired his remarks live.

this is insane. the defendant can't be granted even a few words? the third indictment of donald trump is the one much in the media has been eagerly awaiting because they feel it vindicates their reporting on the 2020 election and that doesn't mean trump will be found guilty not at all but there is a sense that democracy is at stake, that we finally gotten to the heart of the matter. did the former president break the law and constantly charging the last election was stolen. the crux of the case is not whether trump caused january 6. that be impossible to prove but whether he knowingly lied about the rigged election. the indictment says, "donald trump spread lies, the claims were false and the defendant knew they were false" but his team says otherwise, and that trump believes what he's been saying. even though members of his inner circle say they told him he lost and here is what trump said after pleading not guilty. >> this is a persecution of a political opponent. this was never supposed to happen in america.

this is the persecution of the person that's leading by very very substantial numbers, in the republican primary and leading biden by a lot, so if you can't beat him, you persecute him or you prosecute him. howie: my friends at the other channels, you could have spent the next 24 hours challenging what he just said. actually neck and neck with joe biden. trump, of course is the front runner for the gop nomination and much as the media don't like the idea, could well win back the white house. howard kurtz and this is mediabuzz. ahead we'll look at the testimony of hunter biden's ex- business partner, behind closed doors, about the help he got from hunter's father. the pundits hit the airwaves with strikingly different takes on the latest trump indictment. >> the attack on our nation's capitol on january 6, 2021 was

an unprecedented assault on a seat of american democracy. it's described in the indictment , it was fueled by lies. >> and this is the first time that the first amendment has been criminalized. it's the first time that a sitting president is attacking a political opponent on first amendment grounds and basically making a criminal to state your position. >> he was pushing it as far as he could and maybe he pushed it a little too far, but should he die in prison for that? i don't think the biden administration realizes what its done here. >> somebody finally stood up to him today and said you know what you need fifth grade class knows that you can't cheat and lie and bully and use violence to get your way. >> ultimately it comes down to he knew that he had lost because he was told by a bunch of people , you've lost, mr. president, but he kept repeating the lie. >> these people that have all, all testified against donald trump, these people that stood

up to his lies, to his attempt to overturn democracy, they were doing it not just against his interest. they were doing it against their own best interest. >> if the new standard is going to be any time a elected official lies about something, by the judgment of a prosecutor, and takes action on that, are they guilty of a conspiracy? howie: joining us now to analyze the coverage robbie suav e, senior editor at " reason magazine" and laura fink , robbie put aside the deflections and the rhetoric for just a moment. is this a strong indictment of donald trump when it comes to his alleged efforts to overturn the election? >> i think it's somewhere in the middle ground. obviously, it's spelling out a lot of bad conduct on his part, but it is going to come down to this fundamental question and i wouldn't want to be in the position of the prosecutor having to prove that donald trump actually didn't think he

won the election. i've heard everything he's had to say for years. he still says he won that election. howie: yes he does. >> that has to do with the efforts he took. we're not painting over the things he did that were bad but when you read that indictment it's a lot of he said , he tweeted. it's word-based and i don't think it's wrong to be concerned about criminalizing political expression that was bad, that he could have been punished for by voters for and next time could be too. they impeached him over it but is it a criminal conspiracy? i think it's going to be a little bit harder to prove than they say so. howie: i certainly agree on harder to prove. laura, the media are loving this indictment because it matches what they have been reporting the last two and a half years but having a hard time understanding how, in light of these and other charges, donald trump is running neck and neck with joe biden. >> well, that's clearly because the information has yet to sink in. the indictment was released -- howie: yet to sink in? we've been covering it 25 hours a day. >> well, and also, i would say

that conservative media has acted as a rapid response team for trump, advancing his arguments, demonizing the justice department and i think jesse watters called them political war crimes and atrocity so you see that there is this dual here having an impact but any time you look at the polls you have to wait for that information not to sink in not just for donald trump but for anyone. this truly is really about the characterization and i would say to my colleague that this is also about actions. this isn't just about words but i think successfully, donald trump has framed it in the media even the new york times calling it a clash of lies versus free speech, but ultimately, this , the actions will be measured. his calls to electors. his huddling and conference rooms, his pressure on elected officials and ultimately that fate full conversation with mike pence in pressuring him to obstruct what was going on at the capitol, the basic certification of the election. you have your day in court.

you do not get to overturn an election by force. howie: boy what's interesting, robbie, on this question of words versus action, is that john lauro, on all five sunday shows today, trump's attorney says oh, he didn't direct mike pence to try to stop the election. i mean, he said you could be a hero, instead you're a coward. i don't know. it sounded pretty close to a pressure campaign to me. >> well, this is something eventually a jury will have to decide. i mean, with respect to what we just heard, i mean it is calls to people, huddling in rooms. that is speech. now obviously you don't have the right, you can commit a crime and there's a speech component and still a crime. i'm not naive about that. but is the pressure on state officials finding votes that are out there that my advisors have given bad advice and i'm wrong but i think those votes are out there then that doesn't look like -- howie: what about the people in his inner circle and there are a number who have said publicly he

lost the election? >> sure a lot of people didn't, he's hearing a lot of things but he clearly chose to believe the ones who told him he had actually won and you can fault him for that but can you put him in prison for it? howie: that's a question as you say for a trial and we'll see when the trial takes place. laura, in a truth social post trump said he compared his situation to that of nazi germany and also, there's this post that's gotten a lot of attention let's put it up. if you go after me, i'm coming after you. and that is has prompted the office to require not to require, excuse me, to request from the judge protective order. trump asked for more time. his order is, i should say his response is due tomorrow so what do you make about these various typical trump outbursts but maybe this time there are consequences? >> well i think for the first time he's being treated like a criminal defendant which he currently is, and you can not have, i think that the judge

will constantly have to balance his free speech rights in terms of being a political candidate, but also, the right of these witnesses to not feel pressured. the right of a trial to proceed effectively and according to the rule of law, and so the judge will no doubt be weighing in on this but i think his ability to use the bully pulpit to pressure witnesses, to leak details of the case, all of this normal defendant be restrained from doing, we'll see if there are two standards in this instance, but this is a tough case to try for any judge. howie: yeah, no question about it and one more from trump. but soon in 2024 it will be our turn, maga, so a lot of people thinks he's forecasting revenge but that's a long way off. robbie is the coverage of this indictment overall fair? msnbc, and i might have missed one or two, seems like every host, every pundit, everybody whose ever tried a case, was hailing this indictment and bash ing trump and plus will be

before a d.c. jury which isn't going to be fair oracle to him. >> there's a lot of bias in the mainstream media not just in terms of the political santa fe but the bias in favor of prosecutors in general. cnn, everybody they bring on is a g-man, somebody who brought cases or investigated so of course they are always going to say -- howie: they must want x defense attorney. >> where are they? put them on and that skews the coverage because the american people deserve to know he's going to have a defense. he is entitled to a defense. there's still due process and just because there are tons of people who hate him on tv and cnn and msnbc, saying this case is airtight you aren't hearing the other side yet. howie: i think that's true. laura is the concept to balance itself outdated because is the media going to cover this particular one. i know there are other ones that may be an indictment in the next couple weeks from the atlanta da , but it's virtual ly around the clock eating up virtually all the oxygen and if people are getting an anti-trump view and i

nowhere you stand politically. sounds like it makes it harder to get a fair trial. >> well, it no doubt. the polarization both of impacts the institutions and the course of justice in this country, but i think what you see in the face of all of this , jack smith is trying to run a straight up and down case, and in terms of the media, you know, i saw as i was watching msnbc and cnn, a lot of talk about the logistics, a lot of talk about the legal theories, a lot of talk about the actual indictments, what they meant and what would take to prove them false or true. you know, in the right, i really saw more defense of trump, less information about what was in the context and the content of the document and more about trump's defenses. so obviously, that's predictable but i thought it would start especially on the day that the indictment was released. usually that comes a little bit after. the conservative media was ready

with their arguments and to carry water on this one and it was hard if you're a viewer to even understand the case that jack smith was making because it was dismissed before it was even relayed. howie: well i would just say it depends on the show, the channel , not everybody has the same point of view and we were all waiting and people were reading this thing on the air to see what jack smith had or what he chose to put in the indictment. just briefly, see if i can get you both in here. john lauro surprised evidence by saying yes there should be cameras in the courtroom. it's extraordinarily unlikely but given the oj experience wouldn't that turn it into something of a circus? >> yes, but this is going to be a circus anyway. donald trump is running for president again and they might be, they are trying to put him in prison at the same time, and whether trump is president again, just everyone has to understand is ultimately a political question the voters will decide on. no judge or no jury picks that. it's the voters. howie: laura got 20 seconds. >> i would say this. trump decided to appear in court in person instead of going by zoom because he wanted the media attention, the focus, the car

chase. he sees this as his ticket to victory in the public eye, and so we will see , he will control as john lauro, says he wants cameras in the courtroom it may not happen but i can see why he wants it to be on full display to make his case. >> i agree completely. howie: fairly rarely happens in federal cases. when we come back where does this third indictment leave trump's gop rivals, and later what did we learn from hunter biden's former business partner? the america's best celebrity sale is happening now. and it's making quite the spectacle. for a limited time, get two pairs of privé revaux frames from jamie foxx for only $89.95.

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howie: donald trump may have been charged with legally trying to overturn the election but his gop rivals basically backed him and side stepped the questions while criticizing the justice department.

>> so when i'm president, we will bring accountability, we will end weaponization and that regards to new leadership at the fbi, doj. howie: well, one notable exception and a key witness at the trial is trump's former vice president. >> the american people deserve to know that on that day, the president xied me to choose between him and the constitution and i chose the constitution and i always will. the president specifically asked me and his gaggle of crackpot lawyers asked me to literally reject votes. howie: i love that crackpot lawyers. robbie, given the gravity of these charges and the saturation media coverage, how are most of his opponents not going after donald trump? are they terrified that any criticism will alienate his voters? >> yeah, i think so, but then it's the question is why are they bothering to run against him. like let's set aside pence and people who are going after donald trump but the rest of them if they are saying that

he's correct, about the weaponization of the federal government i think they raise good points and desantis makes good points about the fbi and pressure on americans speeches and rights et cetera but then why are you running against him? he's at the center of this weaponization issue. if you believe that shouldn't donald trump be the guy? howie: interesting, well, laura , trump said "i feel badly for mike pence attracting no droughts, enthusiasm or loyalty " who as a member of the trump administration should be loving him. i'm sure he feels really badly but i think this is the best press that mike pence has had in his whole campaign. what do you think? >> well he's having a moment and he is caught, because he cannot deny his testimony. he had go and swear to tell the truth and he did so and that will all be coming out in the months ahead so he cannot in sort of good political conscience not criticize trump right now but we understand it's a bold move. none of his colleagues are and the deep irony is they are all waiting for these indictments to

lower trump's numbers for them to be too much baggage so that they can make the argument that he's unelectable so they need this to succeed all while condemning the justice department for bringing these charges. it is wild to me to watch the tap dance and the two-step because they need this indictment to succeed for their campaigns to do so. howie: mike pence is in a box because the people who love trump don't like what he did and the media loves what he did because they think he stood up for the constitution, but we don't get the vote in large numbers in republican primaries. robbie, trump now says he's got an open mind about coming to the first debate on august 23, the fox debate, after dinner with two top fox executives but then he turns around and tells brightbard, that it be foolish or even stupid to show up, so what's with this game of teasing >> i'm not sure why he's a little bit skiddish about doing this debate. it seems like it be a good idea.

he could be right that he doesn't immediate to do it because he has the nomination anyway but he's shined at all these previous debates. the camera is just laser focused on him, because he's the entertaining personality, what everybody wants to watch. more attention has always benefited trump. howie: but with that spotlight, will reflect also on the other candidates and he will be giving a platform. >> we forget their names when standing next to him. it's just trump. it's just trump. howie: i'm not sure i totally agree with that but you could make the case. laura? if he's on that stage, somebody like chris cristi whose a very good debater, could just pummel him over this indictment. on the other hand as robbie points out trump is a particularly good counter-punch er, as i remember from 2015, 2016, and 2020. would his absence make it look like he's kind of hiding out? >> i think his absence lowers the profile of all of his opponents and makes them look small. strategically, it's very smart

for him to avoid the debate, although i have to say i would love to see the gop fireworks as i think we all would, but i think that no matter how good he is, he's one of six voices on the stage, and you know, he's a great counterpuncher which makes it be a great spectacle to watch but ultimately he's tens of points ahead of his nearest rival and he has no need to do this. he is the ex-president and they are simply sprinting behind him trying to catch up. howie: it is true, robbie, that he has no need to do this , certainly don't see president biden debating but you seem to feel like in the end, or you seem to be suggesting, implying, he's not going to be able to resist the lure of the cameras. >> he's a tv personality. howie: i forgot that. >> that's what brought him to the attention of so many americans in the first place. that's why so many people initially said this should be the guy to fix america's problems. he's particularly good at using the medium of tv and he's talent

ed at it and he should continue to use it to his benefit. maybe he has other opportunities then to debate to speak to the american people directly. doesn't want to bother sharing stage but i don't think chris cristi or anyone else will remotely dent him in any way that matters in any debate, period, end of story. howie: i'd at least like to see it and then we have clips we could play because that's what we do on television. thanks very much for coming by this sunday. up next liberal bill maher blames the democrats for the migrant crisis and rfk jr. files suit against google. (vo) sail through the heart of historic cities and unforgettable scenery with viking. unpack once and get closer to iconic landmarks, local life and cultural treasures. because when you experience europe on a viking longship, you'll spend less time getting there and more time being there.

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howie: robert f. kennedy is suing google's youtube. good luck with that, you're going to lose. he calls youtube a state actor, censoring him, who can set whatever standards they want whether we like it or not and i often don't, since he's running for president, kennedy throws in a political point saying he's being silenced under the

leadership of joe biden while presenting absolutely no proof of that. this rfk video is still available on twitter. kennedy has a long history of spreading misinformation leading to clashes with the tech titans, he said vaccines cause autism and said covid spares jews and chinese people. last year facebook and instagram suspended an anti-vax group he founded also citing misinformation. instead of suppressing such content remember some early views on covid turned out to be true or at least plausible? why not flag such material with a warning and links to reputable sites that's a far-better free speech approach. liberal host bill maher with guest sharon osborne saying she's moving back to london because of the homeless problem here, took on joe biden, who he had supported. maher said the president was not competent and then on his random podcast opened up on democratic mayors in non-border states. >> don't pretend that you love

migrants so much and then when we send them to you you don't like them. you know? we can see that. yeah, you like them when it wasn't your problem because you're not a border state. [laughter] then when he show up in chicago and new york you're like what are we going to do with these people? howie: it's not unusual for ma her to call out his own side whether he has a drink in his side or not. jeffly goldberg, the atlantic editor in chief, a super-smart reporter and editor, reflects his left-leaning magazine by tv standards probably a good fit for the program. i thought this was a really juicy item. ron desantis agreeing to debate california governor gavin newsom on hannity. newsom is dying to run for president, trying to boost his national profile, except the nomination is currently owned by a guy named biden. desantis would love the exposure

as he tries to break out of the gop pack but when i got a little deflated when newsom selected two dates in november, so right now, there's just a punch of smack talk. joy behar probably the biggest trump hater on the view has her chance with these indictments to envision him behind bars. instead she came up with the idea of trump cutting a deal and leaving the country. >> i don't even care if he goes to jail. i don't have it in my heart to punish the guy. i just want him to go away. howie: and where would the suddenly-compassionate behar go to? saudi arabia. next on media business hunter biden's former business partner finally testifies. does he have the evidence against hunter's father?

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howie: the much-anticipated testimony of hunter biden's former business partner devin

archer took place this week but we didn't see it. the indicted businessman spoke to the house oversight committee behind closed doors so the first accounts came from republican chairman. >> joe biden's repeated promise that he never had anything to do with his son's business deals, that was an outright lie. >> they sold joe biden. that's what the business was, and joe biden himself talked to every single person that has wired money to the bidens. >> i think it is safe to say that after yet another two hours , there still is no connection of any of hunter biden's business dealings with president biden. >> even if hunter puts his business partners on speaker phone with his dad and they don't talk business at all, you're saying the next day when hunter talks to joe and they say they talk everyday, joe doesn't say hey, hunter, um, what are you doing in dubai. >> what the committees have not yet produced is any indication that joe biden in any way was

involved in his business activities. i mean, even the kind of the star witness said that he provided the illusion of access. howie: joining us from jacksonville florida, susan pere sia, chief political reporter for the washington times and michael larosa former spokesperson for jill biden. susan i've read this lengthy transcript and devin archer confirms that joe joined about 20 calls that included hunter with either business associates or potential investors, but only spoke in vague generalities that is still significant, but not exactly a bombshell, is it? >> well, define bombshell. you know? he was calling into these business meetings and not saying anything directly about the business, but just conveniently calling in, well, hunter biden was talking to these business associates. he also, we know of at least three visits to these business

associates two at cafe milano and another at a hotel in d.c. where joe biden popped in on these meetings so if you listen to what the president has said over and over about this , he had nothing to do with these meetings. he knew nothing about them. he didn't know any of the player s. he didn't get any of the money. now we have devin arch erin this deposition actually putting the then-vice president in the room either via speakerphone or in person with these business associates so it's totally countering what the president has said and he hasn't responded this contradiction yet so i think it's a really important point and really going to be difficult for the president to now keep making the argument that he was completely separated he wasn't and we know that now. howie: right. michael, the white house has to change its language slightly but hunter wrote back in 2011 his relationship with a certain chinese businessman "has nothing to do with me and everything to do with my last name" so he knew

what was going on and whether joe was saying how is the weather or how is the fishing it helped build what archer called the brand. >> but what archer also said was that the vice president at the time had never come to cafe milano to discuss business. there was nothing material ever conducted in the i guess 20 phone calls over 10 years of the relationship that he said. he also acknowledged there was no wrongdoing, that he had never heard or seen hunter and the president talk about burisma so i still think that the republicans are on this hot pursuit for a problem in search of the solution they have. howie: well, by the way, they went golfing together if we could put that picture up and susan response from the white house, spokesman saying, there he is, republicans much hype witness testified he never heard of president biden discussing business with his son or son's associates or doing anything wrong, but i agree with you that

he doesn't have to discuss business, because it's a pretty big deal for some company overseas to know that the vice president of the united states can begotten any time even if it's discussed generalities. >> you have to couple that, howie, with the fact that the irs whistleblower that testified before congress said that the irs tracked the bidens getting $17.3 million from these foreign deals, and $17.3 million think about that and we know there's probably more because house investigators believe there could be up to $30 million or maybe even more that the bidens gotten these foreign deals with dad calling in and showing up and the brand selling hunter biden's value to these companies, and then we have actions that the president took at the time. the idea is he was a vice president, by the way and did he take these actions in relation to these foreign deals, his son was carrying out, going to ukraine and working to push out

victor shokin, the prosecutor general at the time who we know was going after the ceo of burisma at the time. you can easily connect the dots. this is not difficult. you connect the money and the action and it just reeks of something that needs to be looked at further. howie: i want to clarify with you, michael. >> yeah, we have to respond to a couple of those things. howie: let me ask the question and you can respond however you want. archer said he knew of no $ 5 million payment going to the bidens. secondly though, what was the point you were going to make >> first of all this investigation has been going on from the doj five years that's longer than lightwater and monica nearly longer than iran contra. if the trump-appointed u.s. attorney didn't find anything i don't think jim comer will find anything there. howie: would you concede that hunter biden with his history of drug abuse has been an embarrassment to the family? >> that's a personal, that is

completely -- howie: it's not personal. >> it is. well, that's a great point, because you know what? and you wrote about this in the washington post many years ago. speaking of president's son, i don't know where the public interest or the public stake is with hunter's legal troubles and now with neil bush when he was the son of a sitting vice president and president in 1990 he cost the taxpayers $1.3 billion that they never got back. taxpayer had an interest in that son. i don't know what the interest in hunter biden is. no different than the kennedys or the bushes when it comes to his last name. howie: i want to ask you another question because you come from biden world and these comments by the now-president. >> i have seven grandkids, four of them, five of them old enough to talk on the phone, you know? everyday, i either text them or call them. howie: until recently, the president didn't acknowledge that seventh grandchild as hunter's four-year-old daughter but after getting beat up by liberal pundits he has.

>> look, we are all agreeing families are complex however i do disagree a little bit with the strategy around how they did that. it does look like his hand was forced by the press, it violates a lot of rules of crisis management, tell it all, tell it early, and you know what? tell it yourself and i don't feel like the statement that they dumped out on a friday night really reflected the warm th and humanity and heart of the biden family and it didn't satisfy the press because we're still talking about it a week later. howie: right. susan, i've only got a few seconds in this block, but there was a time when devin archer got indicted in a $60 million fraud scheme. he writes to hunter that he's depressed and like why did your dad's appointees although this is in the trump administration, arrest me and try to put me in jail and ruin my family and hunter writes back saying every president's family is held to a higher standard. it's why we get to do what we do >> ironically hunter biden was really not held to a higher

standard in that sweetheart plea deal he was offered that fell apart in court last month. that's the irony of that e-mail exchange where you see devin archer feeling jolted and hunter biden giving him the lecture and now we learn he was spared jail time and future prosecution. >> he was held to a higher standard for being investigated in the first place. howie: i don't want to re litigate that because i have to get a break. >> i don't agree with that anyway. howie: barack obama warns joe biden about donald trump. how did that story get leaked? that and more, next. the chase ink business premier card is made for sam who makes, everyday products, designed smarter. genius! like 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more, so sam can make smart ideas, a brilliant reality! chase for business. make more of what's yours. pain hits fast. so get relief fast. only tylenol rapid release gels have laser-drilled holes. they release medicine fast... for fast pain relief.

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howie: barack obama in a private lunch with president biden this summer expressed concern about donald trump's political strengths, that according to the washington post , the ex-president telling his former vp, do everything he could to get him re-elected but his advice also focused on trump 's iron grip on the gop, according to two sources cited by the paper, white house spokesman saying no stronger supporter of the biden-harris administration than obama. michael, why would a couple of democrats leak that and emphasize the trump part, got into the headlines, certainly seems to underline biden just a bit. >> i don't know but i'm glad they did and i also think it helps with putting some fears from democratic donors who aren't getting off the bench. they want to know that the campaign is ready and that this is going to be a close race

no matter who the nominee is but particularly trump has extraordinary gifts as a political athlete and his ability to be america's assignment editor and have a lot of free media. i don't know if i've ever seen the guy walk past a microphone or a reporter and not talk to the press. he knows how to use the press to his advantage, and i wish the white house would start using the press more. howie: we'll get back to that. >> more as an opportunity. howie: there's a few politicians i could name in washington, susan, who don't walk past any microphone. what these two unnamed sources said was true. donald trump has an iron grip on the republican party and all that, but to me, it doesn't help that its made public as opposed to private, because it looks like the former president is tutoring the former vice president. >> clearly, and he has every reason to do it because if you look at the polls, there is reason to be concerned about joe biden. people are worried about his age people are worried about the direction of the country,

the economy, his general stewardship of the office. look what's going on at the southern border. there is so many reasons that he is a weak candidate. now of course trump has as many flaws we know this and that the lineup, if it is a trump- biden general election matchup, there are many reasons why trump stands a good chance of losing again in those exact same swing states that hurt him in 2020, but biden is not the strongest candidate. it's just so obvious, so they have obama come in and tell him, you know, you've got to be ready for this. howie: up your game. >> it could be tougher than you think. you know? that's a big obvious conversation i think. howie: yeah, nobody could compete with donald trump for airtime and general coverage this week or any other indictment week. he just absolutely floods the zone but in general, i'm always just so taken by the fact that the current president of the united states operates in such a low key manner. we don't hear from him on weekends. he often has statements put out where he could go in front of the cameras.

what's up with that? >> i do think it's a problem. i think they live in a bunker mentality often and treat the press as a threat, as a hazard and not as an opportunity and president trump used it, uses it the opposite way, and that's beneficial to him but it also has hurt him in the past too. the last three election cycles, independents have fled from republicans because they just simply do not want that guy at the top of the ticket. howie: right, but doesn't it hurt biden not to be seen as much, is the press really a threat? >> i think joe biden is his best advocate and is always at his best when he's sort of un scripted, uncoached, un rehearsed and is the authentic human being that many people think he is. howie: you know, susan, many media analysts said trump be the easiest opponent for biden to beat but that's starting to change, given even given all trump's legal baggage, the question now is about obviously the president's age

and his vitality but also, you know, given that what he's done we can debate what he's done some other time. he's got these abysmal poll numbers, 39% approval rating? >> and trump also, again, an energetic opponent. he can draw very sharp contrast between president biden, asco say ron desantis, anyone could be a formidable opponent against president biden and i kind of disagree with the idea that more of joe biden be beneficial. i think he's just full of gaffs. he wanders off the stage and he looks feeble, frankly and he does not send the message to voters that this guy is ready for four more years whereas, you know, if trump is on the stage you get the opposite impression even though he's 77 years old. it's just a real sharp contrast, has to do with age, energy level , you know, just mental acuity. these are things voters feel visceral when they see him and

think about him. that's the heart of the problem right now is biden versus literally any gop candidate but certainly trump who sucks the oxygen out of the room from all the other candidates right now. howie: let me give michael a response. >> i agree he needs to be able to show energy and compete visually but where he is strikingly different than the last president is he's accomplished more than any other president in his first term than any president has done in eight years. you may disagree with that but he's been one of the most effective presidents we've had since lyndon johnson, in terms of getting things done and if it takes an 80-year-old to do that i'll take that any day of the week. howie: i think he's very knowledgeable after a half century in politics but at the same time could come across as more vigorous and do more one on one interviews, thanks for joining us. still to come who are donald trump's co-conspirators and why aren't they being named? let innovation refunds help with your erc tax refund so you can improve your business

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howie: the media were quickly drawn to one of the mysteries of the donald trump indictment. who are the six unindicted co- conspirators who were not named and it wasn't that hard to crack the code. >> cnn identified five of the six co-conspirators at the special counsel office as the former president listed to "assist" him in his criminal efforts to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 presidential election. >> the one person we haven't been able to figure out is co-conspirators number six. howie: based on media reports and my own analysis i believe they are rudy giuliani, former trump lawyer john eastman, sidney powell, doj official jeffrey clark, trump legal supporter ken chesboro, and number six, unknown. spoke earlier with griff jenkins the fox news reporter and anchor . griff jenkins, welcome.

what a week its been and i call a prominent person being accused by another network as being number six. this person had no idea the name was being kicked around so what are prosecutors doing? >> so they are listed as a co- conspirator in the indictment itself but not named and that's because they haven't gotten a target letter like trump did and so they haven't been notified and they're protected because their identity would not be out there unless they end up being charged then that changes. i had a moment this week to talk directly to john lauro, former president trump's attorney, lead attorney, in this case, and i said hey, can you tell me whose co-conspirator number six and he said i don't know. howie: all these defendants could be charged later. jack smith wants a speedy trial. doesn't want to deal with certain different defense attorneys but since the special counsel is already saying they

are part of the conspiracy do you see or hear any pressure on all or some of these people to make a deal, to get a more lenient sentence? griff: an enormous amount of pressure. i'm not a lawyer but covered a lot of cases. it's very routine that the prosecution doesn't same the co-conspirator in hopes they know who they are and then they contact them and say how, do you want to testify and then become part of it. that's standard thing that we see a lot, so it is very likely that some of these co-conspirators that we believe we know who they are, may be given an opportunity to cooperate in the prosecution of trump and then there's people that are not on the list of the co-conspirators we think we know who might also be cooperating, so a lot of things in play here. howie: according to the indictment, on the morning of january 6, co-conspirator joined co-conspirator two and told the crowd that mike pence said no, no, no, should block the electoral results. do you know who those two are?

griff: i think i do, howie. this is a very significant part of the indictment. when i read it, it took me back to the morning of january 6 i was the reporter for fox news starting before the sun came out , out there covering what be president trump's speech and there were several people that spoke that morning, and it was the moment that rudy giuliani and john eastman, another lawyer , advising trump on the election strategy of whatever he was trying to do, they were standing up there on the stage and they were talking about the pressure they're going to bring on mike pence, me and my other fellow reporter said wow this is the first time we've seen this real pressure on pence it stands out and that's why while they're not named i think they could possibly be co-conspirator one and two. howie: pence obviously stood up to the pressure and the next person to speak was donald trump and you happened to be right there. griff jenkins thanks so much for joining us. griff: thanks, howie. howie: i love griff was there doing his job at 6:00 in the

morning. i'm howard kurtz. you can conspire by me by subscribing to my podcast, apple , itunes if you subscribe there you don't have to get any ads. well, these are tough times with lots of polarization in this country. we try to cut through it and give you a balanced show. on that note we're back here next sunday, 11 eastern. we'lelitl see you then. safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ hi, i'm susan, i've lost 84 pounds on golo and i've kept it off for a year. i had spent so much money on other products that when i saw the commercial for golo, the price was so much cheaper and i thought, "boy, this might not work

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arthel: box off the coast of alaska. the two adversaries got close enough to our territory that it sparked a major response from the u.s. navy and concern from lawmakers hello everyone welcome to "fox news live" i am arthel neville. bryan: hello i am in for eric shawn. going to fox news a digitally joint naval operation sent several russian and chinese ship near alaska solution islan.