worldwide on amazon pride and apple tv on thanksgiving day. >> we have chris collinsworth, a cast of many. wonderful. same year the women got the vote. so, big year in american history. >> check it out. >> they've you. >> no one better to do it. thanks to everyone, tomorrow's friday, now here is "america reports." >> when it comes to joe biden, people say man, he's too old to run, isn't he? he's not going to -- he's not -- every discussion -- when i say every discussion, i don't mean 99% of the discussions, every discussion. >> vice president kamala harris the best running mate for this president? >> he thinks so, that's what matters. >> do you think she is the best running mate? >> she's the vice president of the united states. >> john: seems everywhere you look democrats and members of the liberal media are now sounding the alarm over the

biden-harris ticket. the past 24 hours, the "new york times," washington post, and even former speaker nancy pelosi have all cast doubt on president biden's re-election bid with concerns growing over whether his age will hand the white house back over to republicans. >> sandra: is the tide finally turning against biden and will democrats start publicly calling for the president to step aside for someone else in 2024. former democratic congressman patrick murphy and tammy bruce are here to dig into that coming up. >> impeachment inquiry is not impeachment. so, what impeachment inquiry is to do is to get answers to questions. >> there is not a shred of evidence that president biden committed an impeachable offense. >> recommended against it, but that train has moved and so but we do need to find out that his -- did president biden get any of the $20 million. >> we have a felon in hunter biden, we have a criminal who is still being investigated ever so slowly by the department of

justice. and we have a link directly to the president in which the president made false statements. that is what we are investigating. >> john: president biden set to speak next hour in his first public remarks since house speaker kevin mccarthy formally launched an impeachment inquiry. the white house gearing up for a fight some fear could up end his re-election bid. hello, john roberts in washington. sandra, good thursday to you. >> sandra: warming up to be a big couple hours ahead. sandra smith in new york. a trio of house committee chairs making their case this morning to their republican colleagues over why impeachment is the right path to pursue for answers on president biden's role inspected enrichment of his son's overseas business dealings. >> john: james comer said he is now seeing bank -- seeking, rather, bank records from the personal and business records belonging to hunter and his uncle jim biden.

>> sandra: fox team coverage, how biden could benefit from a trump-era doj rule. but first, chad pergram, he's reporting live on capitol hill for us to kick things off at this hour. chad, how long will this impeachment inquiry last? >> well, sandra, it's unclear, even house oversight committee chairman james comer is not sure. i pressed comer about timing earlier today. >> it's hard to put a timeline on things when almost on a weekly basis we discover more information. i'm an impatient person. i hope we can wrap it up as quickly as possible. >> comer said he was not sure how a potential government shutdown could impact an impeachment inquiry. the impeachment investigation did little to satisfy conservatives who demand deep spending cuts. some conservatives say they may call for a vote of no confidence for kevin mccarthy. speaker doubts his opponents can win. >> threats don't matter and

sometimes people do those things because of personal things, and that's all fine. i focus just like anything else, if you watched, most people get to speak on the first round, it took me 15, i'm a little irish. i knew people would fight or hold leverage for other things. i'm going to continue to focus on what's the right thing to do for the american people, and you know what, if it takes a fight, i'll have a fight. >> mccarthy said today he's pushing for 30 to 60-day temporary spending bill. only inflame the right. democrats are watching the gop stew. >> three ring circus. ring one, shut down the government. ring two, impeach president biden. ring three, jam your extreme white wing ideology down the throats of the american people. >> it's about the math. if mccarthy lacks the votes to fund the government, it's unclear how he will have the votes to impeach the president and doubt his opponents have the votes to oust him from the

speakership. sandra. >> sandra: a lot to get to, chad, thank you. >> john: bring in andy mccarthy, former u.s. attorney and fox news contributor. three committees looking into it, with we are reminded of a january 2020 rule from the then trump administration doj that impeachment inquiries by the house are invalid unless the entire house takes up a vote to authorize such an inquiry. what do we know about this? >> well, john, this goes back to the 2019 ukraine impeachment effort which at the beginning of it nancy pelosi much like what kevin mccarthy has done here basically just authorizes, used her own authority to authorize an impeachment inquiry without getting a full vote of the house and that was to the consternation and condemnation

of kevin mccarthy and other top republicans who argued that it was not legitimate unless you passed a resolution which established an impeachment committee and what its jurisdiction would be. that resulted in the trump administration at the justice department promulgating what you just described, which was this guidance that because the inquiry had not been authorized by the full house, it was not legitimate. now, there were a few other rounds that got played out there. first, eventually the house did vote for the impeachment inquiry, not at the beginning, but eventually. and secondly, when they impeached trump in connection with ukraine, one of the articles of impeachment was the failure to comply with subpoenas from the house so they did not accept on capitol hill what they promulgated at the justice department. see how it plays out. >> john: so steven engel was the

head of the counsel back then, i call it a rule, but you point out it's more guidance or legal opinion, he wrote "we conclude that the house must expressly authorize a committee to conduct an impeachment investigation and to use compulsory process in that investigation before the committee may compel the production of documents or testimony." so, how might this aid biden as they go through this inquiry in the house? >> this is why you just kinds of shake your head at this whole escapade, john. if jamie comer at the oversight committee like four days ago had issued a subpoena from the oversight committee, that would be an enforceable subpoena and the administration failed to comply with it, that could be an article of impeachment. the instead, what they have now done is under circumstances where they didn't have the votes but they want to call this impeachment, they have established an impeachment inquiry without doing a vote or

establishing a committee and establishing its jurisdiction which means the biden administration much like the trump administration in 2019 is basically just going to say that a subpoena that would have been perfectly legitimate four days ago is now illegitimate because there is no vote for impeachment inquiry. >> john: how could it hamstring the impeachment inquiry? >> i think it's more politics, john, than legal. these committees retain their authority as standing committees of the house. so, they were able to issue subpoenas anyway as the oversight committee or the judiciary committee. what this does is it's a kinds of an overlay on all of that that allows the biden administration to say this whole thing is illegitimate and mccarthy knows it because he would not put it to a vote, and the point that you made and i think chad made earlier is still

a sound point, which is -- if they don't have the votes to open an inquiry, why should biden think they should be able to vote articles of impeachment down the road? >> john: all right, andy mccarthy with his legal opinion on that. andy, thank you so much. more on that, and other things ahead with south dakota senator john thune. but to andy's point about it being called an illegitimate investigation, i would suspect that even if mccarthy did have the votes in the house to authorize an impeachment investigation, it would be strictly along party lines and the other party would continue to call it illegitimate. >> sandra: and the president himself, remarks begin at 2:45, we'll see if there is specific mention of these or if he takes questions on it, john. >> john: all right, definitely shouted questions after he

finishes, whether or not he answers we'll see. >> sandra: we'll be watching for that. a judge ruling that sydney powell and kenneth chesebro will not be tried along donald trump and co-defendants. they were indicted in georgia's 2020 election fraud case. steve is on this for us live at the fulton county courthouse. what else came out of that court today? >> steve: sandra, the really big news, what's going to happen with the prosecution's push to try all 19 defendants in one last trial, including 40 charges and mainly racketeering. that is not going to happen, the drama happened before court got started. the judge ruled as you said two of these defendants will be tried separately. they had pushed hard for a speedy trial, the judge granted their wish, so jury selection for them will begin next month, and chesebro's attorney said we are ready to go.

>> are you ready for trial? >> of course. we would not have asked for it if we weren't ready. >> how have you been preparing? >> a lot of late nights. >> so all gets started here in georgia october 23rd with jury selection. no date set yet for the trial of former president trump. sandra, back to you. >> sandra: ok, steve, thank you. john. >> john: sandra, alec murdaugh back in court, this time on fraud charges. where does that case go from here? plus this. >> he is clearly one of the most pro union presidents we've had. always supported unions. always talked about that in the context of bidenomics. >> sandra: the white house trying to sell joe biden as the most pro union president in recent history. so then why hasn't one of the biggest auto unions endorsed him yet as some plant workers get ready to walk off the job.

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♪♪ >> john: as if they needed just one more thing to deal with, american companies are trying to combat a new office trend. you've probably heard of quiet quitting, loud quitting, and loud laboring, now you can add bore-out to that list. new term describes workers who feel chronically bored and unfulfilled in their jobs. similar t quiet quitting, workers do the bare minimum and can result in more stress, higher turnover, and health problems as well as negatively impact a company's bottom line. you know, if you are bored in your job, find another job,

sandra. don't take yourself out of the position to the point where other people have to pick up your work. >> sandra: that is an unbelievable trend. and quite a few of those trends happening out there. i'll ask charles about it. but like i tell my kids, there is great pride in working hard and great fulfillment in a hard day's work, john. >> john: and if you done like the job, you have really hard at it so you get a better job. you can do that, too. >> sandra: amen. all right, now this. >> i told them when i ran for president i told you i would have your back and i have. i'm proud to be the most pro union president. >> we are preparing to strike these companies in a way they have never seen before. >> they are already inspired. they are already prepared to go on strike. >> we can't make our money, they don't need to make their money. as simple as that. >> sandra: right now we are waiting on the white house and

president biden, the white house is calling this a major economic speech the president is set to deliver 2:45 p.m. eastern time today and comes as the president is staring down a potential strike by the united auto workers. a strike could cost the economy billions of dollars and come at a time when voters are increasingly critical of biden's handling of the economy. can i ask you about the speech we are about to hear from the president? doubling, tripling down on bidenomics, that these are policies working for hard-working everyday americans but poll after poll economic data after economic data show that that is just not the case. >> charles: sand dra, it's mind boggling. the white house is consistent about one thing, public relations and spin before everything, before everything. botched afghanistan, try to spin your way out of it. every single mistake they have made, they never said hey, maybe we need to tweak something.

i think people would like it if we had a president who said we will try something differently, instead, you are dumb, you don't understand the economy and your own pocket book. look what i have done for you. >> sandra: you know what the american people are telling them, "new york post," it's still the economy, stupid. and you can tell people all day long they should be feeling great and the numbers are good, and things are improving but if they don't feel it then that's not gonna -- >> charles: what did we learn two days ago, census bureau, real incomes are down three years in a row. poverty, the rate of poverty spiked the fastest one-year spike in history. hispanic poverty, near 20%. black poverty near 18%. maybe biden thinks he'll get the votes anyway, so used to telling those people i'll tell you how you feel and you'll accept it, shut up and vote for me anyway.

it is so frustrating, sandra. >> sandra: i hear it in your voice, governors at the state level are taking it into their own hands, governor kemp joined us yesterday. declaring a state of emergency in georgia because of the high prices. listen. >> biden is taking credit for driving inflation down. he created the inflation to start with, so he's fixing, or trying to fix a problem that he created but the bottom line is prices continue to remain high and hard working georgians and americans know that, and that's why people are not giving president biden credit for this economy. >> sandra: what they are really feeling yesterday i think jared bernstein put it, he tried to dig into ok, this is core cpi, and this is what economists watch because it trips out food and energy, can be more involved. well, this is the number people are feeling. these are consumer prices under

this presidency since january 2021. consumer prices are up nearly 17%. if you want to look at gas prices, they want to strip it out, apparently, in their analysis, but gas prices today, 3.85. up from a year ago, and look at that, up a lot, a dollar and a half from when the president took office. that's what people feel. >> charles: and what's worrisome about the numbers, that's what the president wanted to happen. that's what makes it so agregious. >> sandra: they would push back on that. >> charles: no they wouldn't. canada -- he said i'm going to get rid of the oil industry. we know supply and demand. the less supply, the price goes up. economics 101. so he wanted the prices to go up. he can't deny that. when he -- when he keeps changing the rules on the industry, he keeps demonizing the fossil fuel industry, and prices go higher, maybe people will look at the e.v.s, and only

people can buy them is wealthy people, and child credit, making $350,000 a year. i can see why the unions are pissed off. president biden has been using poor people, black people, hispanics, uses historic problems and then uses it as a facade or a front and what does he do with it? he pays off student loans for the richest, wealthest, and people making $350,000 a year, child tax credits, are you kidding me? some of them are working up. uaw said don't pimp us anymore, we want our rights, we want to make money. you are giving the car companies hundreds of billions to go down the deep dark hole of e.v.s when nobody wants them. >> sandra: and remember when chuck schumer called it a bail-out for big oil when trump wanted to fill up the spr at like $20 a barrel, now they are trying to fill it up at $90 a

barrel, who are we bailing out. and you are a board member of boys and girl clubs of harlem. >> it's cigars, spirits, and -- i'm going to give a speech, they helped me out when i gt here. i'm going to try to make a difference, not just going to talk about it. >> sandra: amazing stuff, charles. good luck with that, john. >> john: always good to see charles. brand-new polling out of south carolina today where south carolina natives nikki haley and tim scott are faring better but donald trump still has the lead over all the candidates. are the two in trouble back in their home state? ben domenic is here on the palmetto state. >> sandra: plus lawmakers trying to get to the bottom of how people on the terrorist watch list are easily coming over our southern border. former acting dhs secretary chad wolf why the biden administration seems to be in

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we borrowed the internet. but that was before viasat came out with all their new plans. yup. lots of internet now. plenty for everyone. learn more about our plans at viasat.com >> john: nasa releasing highly anticipated first report on ufos saying it cannot explain the numerous mysterious sightings in the sky. ooh. however, the agency says it has no evidence that any of these ufos have an extraterrestrial origin and warn tracking them will require new advanced satellites and scientific techniques. the report comes just days after researchers in mexico presented two mummified bodies discovered in peru they insist were "not human" but look like they might have been a model for steven

spielberg's e.t. >> we have 75,000 illegal immigrants living among us national security risks currently. >> hearing where the republican majority tries to scare the public and demonnize immigrants will not make american safer. >> it's astounding. have you never been to the border, seen what's going on at the border? >> sandra: fireworks on capitol hill today, lawmakers in the house judiciary committee holding a hearing on the threat of terrorists coming across the southern border. democrats calling it political but republicans say the border crisis is a major security threat. chad wolf is here why the biden administration seems to be in denial about that crisis. but first, bill melugin is live in mission, texas. more for us. what are you seeing there, bill? >> bill: sandra, good afternoon to you. it's the state of arizona getting hit hard right now, the tucson sector in particular. they are getting overwhelmed, upwards of 2,000 illegal

crossings per day in that sector for the last three days in a row. we'll take you out there, take a look at this video. lukeville, arizona shooting this video as a large group of male migrants from africa crossed illegally into lukeville. you'll notice from the video, no women, no children. actually, guys, breaking news, send it back to you. >> sandra: all right, thank you very much, bill. back to you. >> john: bill melugin, thank you. well, it was highly anticipated and now it has happened. the federal government has just filed an indictment against hunter biden on that gun charge. david spunt has the latest from the doj. david. >> hey, john and sandra. four pages here, hunter biden, robert hunter biden indicted by the u.s. attorney, or special counsel david weiss based in wilmington, delaware. his office said it would happen

before september 29th. we have three counts in this indictment. this is related to the purchase of that gun. remember back in 2018, we have been reporting on it for several years, hunter biden made a false statement, alleges several false statements about the gun, purchasing a federal firearm. he said he was not addicted to drugs -- ok, looking at jake gibson is reading to me the maximum penalty would be ten years of imprisonment for count one, which is a false statement. so, let me read through this, but just to kind of summarize things here, this is only relating to hunter biden making false statements on a federal gun form that he was not addicted to narcotics when he had in his possession in delaware a gun for just over a week back in 2018. john, sandra, this is not related to the tax cases involving hunter biden or any

other potential charges. the special counsel said those charges relating to his taxes or lack thereof paying taxes could be brought in another district outside of delaware. john, sandra. >> sandra: david, i think it's as you were reading out count two from this form as jake gibson was sort of going through the indictment with us, that hunter biden knowingly made a false statement, ok, and representation to company one, licensed under the provision of chapter 44 title 18 united states code, we'll get legal analysis in a moment. with respect to information required by the provisions, ok. as i make my way through this, certified on the form -- this is what he was alleged, certify on the form that he was not an unlawful user of and addicted to any stimulant narcotic drug and any other controlled substance

when in fact as he knew that statement was false and fictitious, it reads, david. >> yes, exactly, and count three, on or about october 28, 2018, through october 23rd, hunter biden knew that he was an unlawful user and addicted to a stimulant, narcotic drug and did knowingly possess the firearm and mentioned a colt cobra .38 spl resolver, the serial number. so, not good news for hunter biden's team. his team knew it was coming and what makes things a little bit more tricky in this case and we'll expect to hear it from hunter biden's attorneys if they put out any sort of statement or any sort of filing is that they believe that a diversion agreement on this gun charge is still in effect. the original plea deal, sandra and john, that fell apart back on july 26th in a delaware courtroom in a rather public manner originally had a provision that hunter biden

could enter this diversion agreement for this gun charge, meaning he would avoid jail time. now we know, according to u.s. attorney david weiss, that is off the table. hunter biden and his team, they say that is a valid agreement because it was signed back in july. so, there's a little bit of back and forth on how that happens, because hunter biden's attorneys say this is an active diversion agreement. but clearly the u.s. attorney's office not buying that, special counsel david weiss indicting the son of the president of the united states in his home state of delaware. >> sandra: if you could just stand by with us on the breaking news. thank you. >> john: back in andy mccarthy, former assistant u.s. attorney and fox news contributor. so, andy, not too long ago looked like this was all buttoned up and the whole thing was going to go away. hunter biden went into court to get this diversion deal on this gun charge signed off on, along

with a couple of misdemeanors as it related to failure to pay his taxes. now this has blown up in his face and a two-count federal indictment against him. your thoughts. >> yeah, it's three counts, john, and mention that, only -- i think the third count is the most interesting one because the critique about what weiss has done here in filing these charges is that people make false statements all the time on gun forms and don't get prosecuted. and what i've been trying to point out in response to that is that those are what are known as lie and try cases, where people lie on the form but don't get the gun. they get smoked out on the fact they lied before they acquire the firearm. in this instance he got the gun, and i think the point of bringing that last charge is that it's not just a question of

the fact that he lied, he actually did possess the gun under circumstances where he was a disabled person under federal law and shouldn't have had it and lo and behold, they handled it irresponsibly to the point the gun was lost so the way this indictment has pled, the u.s. attorney would be allowed to prove that as well in the trial. so, i think that's the significance of the third count. >> john: apologies, i had not made it to page four, thank you for the clarification. >> sandra: andy if you could for people digesting the news the special counsel has issued the indictment on three gun charges, this is after the plea agreement on the tax and gun charges fell apart, that was july. it's happening as you have a probe into his finances, that is ongoing by house republicans, how does it all affect each other? >> well, you know, it's very interesting, sandra, because the

way weiss wrote these agreements that we heard about about seven weeks ago when he was trying to make this whole thing disappear, the tax stuff was disaggregated from the gun charge and at that point i believe it was just one gun charge, but importantly, the gun thing was not a plea agreement, it was a diversion agreement, which is why david was just reporting that the biden defense team is continuing to take the position that that agreement is alive and well and that they're following, that hunter has been following the terms of it and that they're going to litigate and claim that they have a diversion there, that the government can't prosecute him. i think they are going to lose that claim but they are going to lose it because a provision in the diversion agreement was that the court's probation department had to sign off on it in order for it to be a valid and complete agreement. the probation officer, the chief

probation officer in delaware never signed off on the agreement, declined to do that, so i don't think they have a diversion agreement and i think this will be a live prosecution. the tax stuff is still on the table. now, with respect to the tax charges, because weiss doddled as long as he did, to my mind, many of the most important charges or potential charges and evidence are now time barred. tax statute of limitations in federal law is six years. we are now in 2023, which means everything that happened prior to 2017 is off the table. which means all of the evidence that we have been talking about and the foreign income that we have been talking about in connection with the years when joe biden was vice president, that stuff is all time barred. a possibility he could bring conspiracy charges to loop that in by straddling it over the

statute of limitations period in 2017, but we'll just have to see what he does. that's still a live investigation and point out to people that even though we are focused on hunter, to the extent the congressional committee in particular has been digging on these bank records and implicating president biden in some of this activity, statute of limitations is running against everybody, not just hunter biden. so the longer that gets delayed, the less of a case they have. >> john: so andy, you have a rich experience with the federal judicial system. can you tell us how you go from a diversion agreement that appeared to have been signed off on to a three count federal indictment? how is that diversion agreement ever agreed to in the first place? >> it shouldn't have been, john. and you know, no matter how much experience somebody had with

federal prosecutions, this is a different kind of case than anyone's ever seen because of the political pressure that was brought to bear. it's not just that hunter biden got a diversion agreement under circumstances where somebody else wouldn't have. under explicit justice department guidelines, if there is evidence of a person brandishing a gun and there is evidence of hunter biden from his laptop brandishing a gun, you are not eligible for diversion. so they threw out every rule in the book in order to give this guy a diversion agreement. they got called on it and i think the fact it happened today even is in large part because the judge ended up putting weiss's feet to the fire by scheduling a conference last week at which she required him to give her a status report of what was going on in the case and he had to fess up at that point that the statute of limitations on the gun charge

may have run on september 29th. so he was up against it at this point. >> sandra: andy, if you could stand by with us for just a moment, we want to get back to david spunt. he's at the doj reporting on the breaking developments here. david, you have some more on what penalties these charges carry. what are you learning? >> yeah, sandra, i didn't mean to interrupt you, that's exactly right. a defendant information sheet. this is filed as an addendum to the actual indictment and goes over the three different counts and the potential maximum penalties. count one, a false statement in purchase of a firearm that's again, the maximum penalty, ten years in prison, a fine of $250,000, 3 years of supervised release. count two, false statement related to information required to be kept by federal firearms licensed dealers, five years in prison, fine of $250,000, 3 years of supervised release and finally, sandra and john, count

three, possession of a firearm by a person who is an unlawful user of or addicted to a controlled substance, ten years of imprisonment, a fine of $250,000, 3 years of supervised release. so, kind of piggy backing off what andy just said, count three is something we knew from the beginning because that was part of the plea deal that fell apart lying on that gun charge. the first two, count one and two, these are new charges brought by the special counsel, david weiss and told by a source familiar with david weiss's thinking, we are not going to see david weiss or hearing him on camera. sometimes special counsels like jack smith, the special counsel in the two investigations over donald trump came out, made a brief statement and did not take questions, we are told that's not the case in this indictment. sandra. >> john: so david, all of this

raises the p word at the white house. president faces the prospect his son could go to jail for a fairly long time and does he issue a pardon? because he does have the authority. >> it's certainly a possibility and it depends on if this goes to trial after joe biden may be out of the white house. if joe biden runs, the current president runs, loses the election at the end of 24, we have a new president on january 2025, this goes to trial after that, hunter biden may not get that pardon. he may not get the pardon if joe biden is president. but certainly there will be questions to the white house. i think it's notable and correct me if i'm wrong, i believe there is no white house briefing today, you know, ironically no briefing today when this news comes down. we know the president is going to be travelling to delaware at some point in the next few days, so not clear when we are going

to hear from him or from white house press secretary karine jean-pierre. >> sandra: we will hear from the president, he's expected to deliver a speech on the economy we are told by the white house at 2:45, so will hear from him. don't know if it will be on this, but hear from him at 2:45, about one hour from now. david, jump back in with developments for us. jonathan turley, university professor and fox news contributor. >> this falls under the category of you have to be careful what you ask for. because the deal that they struck originally just did not pass muster with the federal judge. the defense team got the sweetest of sweetheart deals but upon even a cursory examination, it collapsed. if they had been a bit more modest in what they were seeking, they may have been able to secure a plea and not face this type of stacked counts.

these are significant charges with significant potential jail time. he would be a first offender, so it's not like he's going to max out and also these will all run concurrently. so it's not a consecutive 25 years. but it's still a very serious move. it puts the president in a tough position on a number of levels. first, this is a law that the president supported and his son is going to have to try to challenge it as much as possible. second, one of the most obvious challenges that can be brought would be to challenge the constitutionality of the underlying law, to challenge the law his father has supported. that has been done in other courts. but to do so, he will have to cite cases that his father has denounced from the supreme

court, cases that expanded the second amendment right afforded individuals. >> john: a lot of potential contradictions going on here, and i think joe biden was already asked that question or if he wasn't asked it directly, karine jean-pierre was asked why the president would support a diversion agreement when he has supported the idea of penalties for people who lie on purchase applications. back to what i was talking about with david spunt a moment ago, a potential presidential pardon here for the presidential son. if i'm not mistaken, i believe he can issue a preemptive pardon, can he not? >> he can. i wrote about this over a year ago suggesting that if the president was not intending to run for re-election, he could pardon his son and admit that this was an abuse of the power, and say his penalty will be a

one-term president. pardon power has been abused historically by presidents to assist friends and family members. that included bill clinton who pardoned his half brother. so nothing inviolate about the presidential pardon power. often honored in the breach by presidents in the use to benefit themselves personally or politically. so he most certainly can issue a pardon. he can do it prospectively, he doesn't have to wait for a trial. i think that what you've seen with people like clinton is they waited until they were literally leaving office to use that power for personal purposes, and i would not expect that the president could pardon his son and stand for re-election. >> sandra: let's not forget, i was just pulling up the date, july 27th, karine jean-pierre,

press secretary for the president for the white house, was asked about that from a reporter in the room, she was forced into saying and ruling out president biden would hand his son hunter biden a pardon. we are going to -- pull that, yeah, jonathan. >> yeah, i remember that and i wrote about it at the time because i really didn't think that that ended the issue for the bidens. you know, if the president decides if he's not going to run for office, he may follow oscar wilde's rule, only way to be rid of temptation is to yield to it. that's what bill clinton did. he was literally on his way out of the white house and decided that he would pardon his half brother. and so i don't think you can say that this is off the table for president biden. keep in mind -- >> sandra: i felt like i paraphrased, and jonathan, sorry to interrupt, the question was posed by mark meredith, he said

is there any possibility that the president would end up pardoning his son to which karine jean-pierre responded no. flatly and firmly. >> yes, and keep in mind, he may have to wait because this may not be the last indictment of his son. there is still torpedos in the water for hunter biden. the most obvious is an fara violation, and you know, that's being a unregistered foreign agent. we have been mystified how the department of justice has been rationalized not bringing charges against hunter, when they brought the charges liberally against trump associates like paul manafort, and also tax issues here that could be potentially litigated, although the statute of limitations was allowed to run

on the most serious counts. they may have heavier lifting than just these three counts. >> john: it could just be the first shoe to drop, see if there are more. stand by if you could. kerri kupec urban, just going again over the three counts, count one, false statement purchase of a firearm, count two, related to information required to be kept by federal firearms licensed dealer and count three, possession of a firearm by a person who was an unlawful user of or addicted to a controlled substance. just pick up where we left off with jonathan. karine jean-pierre said emphatically no, when asked by mark meredith about the potential for a pardon. but we may find out in the days and weeks ahead if blood is indeed thicker than water here. >> yeah, it's going to be interesting. politics got hunter biden a sweetheart deal and politics ended the deal as well, when doj was exposed for what it was, and what they did, and picking up on

something jonathan just said, the irony here is that it's highly likely that hunter biden and his attorneys are going to have to argue that this provision, this law that's being applied against him in this gun case, is unconstitutional, in direct -- very different from what his father is saying. >> john: he has not gone to trial yet, don't know if he will be convicted, but the president lost his first son, daughter, first wife, is he going to let his surviving son go to jail? >> it's a great question but joe biden is in a really challenging position. you are right, it is his child but also somebody who violated a law that joe biden himself has very much advocated for, and you know, we are talking about a two-tiered system of justice, something that many americans are very upset about, i don't know that joe biden can preemptively offer him this pardon or maybe do it later on. but right now i think it would

be a political disaster. >> sandra: really interesting. kerri, thank you for joining us. for the american people that are learning of this news as we go, this indictment now has been issued for hunter biden on these three gun charges. they are trying to tie it all together on the ongoing congressional investigation that is happening right now and beyond. how do you sort of take people through that, and how sort of they all work together, if you will? >> sure, the gun charge is something that we have been discussing here on air for weeks and obviously the special counsel just brought this, the three-count indictment against him. but the special counsel has indicated he's going to refile those tax cases against hunter as well, so i think you are looking potentially at obviously the gun charge, looking at tax charges, looking as jonathan said, fara charges, failing to register as a foreign agent doing business on behalf of a foreign entity or corporation,

personally, i think it could just be the beginning. >> john: you are very familiar with the federal justice department working down the street from the doj for the attorney general. here we had a diversion agreement on this gun charge, we had a plea deal on the two tax charges and all of a sudden all of this is turning around and becoming very serious federal indicted charges. and how did we go from one thing to the other? >> it's the million dollar question, john. and i think merrick garland will be getting that question when he appears before congress next week to testify. this is a question on many people's minds. how did we go from hunter biden skating, about to -- and not just skating, he was about to walk basically scott free several weeks ago. >> john: and not just for those charges but any other charge in the future. >> it was incredible. sweeping protection from future prosecution on potential array of crimes and now we have a special counsel indicting him

and i do think it's just the beginning. >> sandra: so kerri, also take us through the defense attorneys have made a point and argued that part of the deal sparing hunter biden prosecution on the gun count is if he stays out of trouble. they argue that that -- that still remains in place. immunity provisions against other potential charges, attorneys are saying that they would fight these additional charges filed against him but the prosecution, kerri, maintains the agreement never took effect and is now invalid. how do you see it? >> there are two problems with that. one for that agreement to be valid, the probation officer has to sign off on it. to my knowledge, everyone's knowledge, the probation officer has not done so. that's first. secondly, the reason there's a problem with the agreement in the first place, strange language that tied it to

sweeping protection from future prosecution, it's unheard of, the whole thing was unprecedented and just crazy and i think now we are seeing the consequences of this deal that doj tried to push through, exposed with under, by the way again, just basic questioning from the judge and scrutiny from the public, they walk away from that. they essentially reneg on their end of the deal and now we have indictments on hunter biden. may be the first of more to come. >> john: a very important aspect of this case. should these charges stand, and there's every indication that they will, will they go before judge noreika or another judge? >> it's a good question. i'm not sure. it could go before that judge. i have to look at the filing more closely, but i would like to make the point that leo weiss, who was the prosecutor who appears to orchestrated this plea deal in the first place, went before the judge, what we want to do, we have talked to

hunter biden's lawyers and this sweetheart deal. he also, and we have talked about this before, i think it's a point worth making again, for the same crime, same tax crimes, he went after the baltimore police commissioner who owed far, far, far less than hunter biden, and what did he want? he wanted to sends him to prison and that man did go to prison over a year. so that is the same prosecutor who put together this deal for hunter biden. so what gives? >> john: i asked the question which judge it may go before. if it does not go before judge mary ellen noreika, could it go before a more sympathetic judge and throw out the charges. >> hunter biden's lawyers will do everything they can to protect their client including arguing this law that's applied against hunter biden and currently the law itself is litigated in other courts across the country, the law itself is

invalid, again is directly in opposition to what his father's administration is saying about the same law. so this is going to get really, really interesting. >> sandra: as you just said, you estimate it could only be the beginning here. shannon bream, kerri, if you could stand by with us, fox news sunday anchor and chief legal correspondent. real quick as we promised our viewers, we went back and pulled the tape from july 27th when karine jean-pierre was asked about a possible pardon for the president's son. listen. >> perspective, is there any possibility that the president would end up pardoning his son? >> no. i just said no. i just answered. >> sandra: and shannon, we remember that being incredibly interesting in the moment. so firmly her response being no. >> yes, and we are used to from the podium on controversial or tough question or answer there is wiggle room and we were stunned that did not seem like it left any. but at that point, in the midst

whether it's a plea deal or not. and now that he's indicted you can have another conversation of a plea deal. attorneys will try anything so you can imagine the conversations are ongoing. remind folks when the whole thing fell apart in july, before the judge, when she was asking questions and they were talking about him having addiction and those things, just to remind folks, this is the transcript of the court back and forth, the judge said i have had 1 or 2 cases involving a person struggling with addiction who bought a gun. we usually see a felony charge for false statement. the defendant admitted the statement was false but not charged. and she said you have your job to do, does the government have any concern about not bringing the false statement charge in light of our discussion of the constitutionality of the charge. government said no, your honor, the prosecutor. the judge clearly said then there are cases that are similar, other people, you can't say struggling with addiction, there are other people that have walked through the statute and

gotten in a lot of trouble because they too were struggling with addiction and lied on a form and now three charges for the first son because he too has walked through that same situation. >> john: you know, there are so many combinations and permeatations of what lie ahead, that joe biden could preemptively pardon him, kerri and jonathan turley said that would be fraught politically for the president, and raises the question, if he's under all of this pressure from democrats to not run again in 2024, does he fall on his political sword and say i'm not running but will pardon my son, or another potential possibility, this never goes to trial but they craft another plea agreement, he pleads guilty and being a first offense maybe he gets off easy. >> yeah, there is every possibility there's no jail time at all connected to these charges, even with a conviction.

i mean, there would be a question about whether there would be jail time. but certainly if another plea deal comes together and nothing precluding these conversations, that may be the way it wraps up, and gives everybody a way to walk out, probation, fines, other things that go on. did the president have to not backtrack on what karine jean-pierre told us, there would not be a pardon. so, yeah, so many different scenarios the way it plays out. there is a lot of pressure, public perception about the doj, handling various cases, this one, the world is watching and people want to see how it plays out. it could be that we end up with the president of a sitting son in a trial during an election year, the same time the man who looks to be possibly back on the ticket and a former president himself is in numerous trials. we say that everything has gotten stranger and crazier over the years, but really we are getting to a place where nothing should surprise us anymore. >> sandra: ok.