i mean, there would be a question about whether there would be jail time. but certainly if another plea deal comes together and nothing precluding these conversations, that may be the way it wraps up, and gives everybody a way to walk out, probation, fines, other things that go on. did the president have to not backtrack on what karine jean-pierre told us, there would not be a pardon. so, yeah, so many different scenarios the way it plays out. there is a lot of pressure, public perception about the doj, handling various cases, this one, the world is watching and people want to see how it plays out. it could be that we end up with the president of a sitting son in a trial during an election year, the same time the man who looks to be possibly back on the ticket and a former president himself is in numerous trials. we say that everything has gotten stranger and crazier over the years, but really we are getting to a place where nothing should surprise us anymore. >> sandra: ok. shannon, we are anticipating the

president a short time from now, about 45 minutes from now, expected to deliver a speech on what the white house is billing a major speech on the economy doubling down on bidenomics and the president's economic policies as working. who knows, we could hear something on this from the president, there could be questions, answers, we don't know. that's the live shot, we are waiting for him, he's en route to maryland. we have also looped in our congressional team to ask for any ongoing reaction on the hill right now. obviously this is brand-new news, shannon, and we have not seen a lot of reaction from capitol hill but i'm sure it's on its way, shannon. >> i would imagine it will be, a true awkward moment for the white house. they have had tough news to deal with in the last few days. some of the core inflation numbers and things yesterday, the poll numbers, while the president is out there with bidenomics, and center of his re-election campaign, but people

across the polls, ours including at fox news, do not think he's doing a good job. and they think his policies are hurting him. does he talk about the policies or talk about hunter biden's indictment. i can't imagine, but the white house has to scramble at the moment. do you acknowledge it, press forward with the message bidenomics is helping you, even though most of the country according to polling does not believe that. it's a tough week for the white house. >> john: kerri kupec, you are the attorney not me, you worked for the justice department, not me. everything we were talking about shannon about, whether it even gets into a courtroom. >> it might not, but i would be very skeptical if weiss's office offered hunter biden another plea deal. look how the last thing went. i don't see that happening again, i really don't. but i do think this could be an interesting opportunity tore question to 2024 candidates. a lot of talk about pardoning

donald trump, and so the question now becomes would you be willing to pardon donald trump, hunter biden, maybe even joe biden. we don't know what's going on in that investigation. let's not forget, i think we all forget, a special counsel looking into joe biden as well with respect to classified documents. now throw in the impeachment inquiry, a lot of stuff swirling out there. >> john: and one more scenario. what happens if hunter biden pleads guilty and throws himself on the mercy of the court. >> yeah, it's certainly a possibility. but again, we don't know what else is brewing at the doj. don't know what's happening with respect to the tax cases, we don't know if anything is happening with respect to fara, failing to register as a foreign agent, doing business on behalf of a foreign country or entity, we don't know. so because we don't know that, it's tough to speculate on just this gun case because again, there could be more coming. >> sandra: and to your point earlier about this could be the beginning, we are getting some

early congressional reaction. james comer spoke on the hill a few moments ago, we are efforting that to play it ba being for the viewers. rep green said about ten minutes ago as the news was breaking on the hill, her response is where are the charges on money laundering, fara charges, tax evasion, she suggests there should be a lot more coming. right now, we are trying to effort further response we are getting to these three counts on capitol hill, kerri. >> the tax cases for a second, it's not a simple, oh failed to pay x amount of taxes and now making it up. hunter biden actively engaged in obscuring what the payments were for, including prostitutes, including all kinds of things, and trying to write them off as business expenses, anyone looking at this would say it's ridiculous, it's not a business expense. and they were going to let him walk away from. wildly, wildly different from

how doj normally treats people who fail to pay their taxes. >> john: kerri, stay with us. the white house, jacqui heinrich is there, the president will be speaking in a little more than a half hour. i don't know how he takes to the lecturn and does not mention this. >> jacqui: it would not surprise me, honestly, if he didn't address it because he's going to be delivering a major economic speech. in the past when there have been events involving his son he has sort of just plowed on with whatever his daily business is. it's only when you get him in a question and answer kind of format where he has, you know, engaged in a very limited way repeating the same lines we have heard before, he loves his son very much, but more broadly speaking, it's, you know, the white house is continuing to refer our questions away with everything that has to do with hunter. white house is not commenting, counsel's office is referring

our questions to hunter's personal attorneys and doj, and reports over the last several months that even staffers have not been able to broach the subject of hunter with the president. it's a very sensitive, tender subject with him. hands off my family is one of the quotes and reports how he becomes faced with the question should you have hunter fly on air force one or marine one, which we have not seen since this case has taken this course. i think the last time we saw hunter on marine one was back in july when he went out to camp david and since his case has been evolving, we have not seen him as often in the public eye as we had been previously, for instance, at the state dinner, and a number of other official events where the president would showcase hunter as a part of his life. but because of all of the

questions about the doj handling of this, and many different ways the legal case has sort of ebbed and flowed with calls from republicans to have weiss come to congress and testify, you know, all of the whistleblower testimony, the white house has brought on different lawyers that will be dealing with the congressional investigations with impeachment with the president's son, the president does not want to talk about, that democrats are, you know, their plan as of now is to just have the president keep governing and to try to put hunter biden in a silo. there was a politico report i think yesterday that you see congressional democrats their strategy coming to the forefront when they are asked questions about the president's potential involvement with his son's overseas business dealings and various things looked at right now, the line you are hearing from them is basically hunter biden, you know, has a lot of

problems but hunter biden is not running for re-election. and so we are seeing that sort of take shape a little bit more. when it comes to the official position here, keeping on the message that the white house wants people to focus on, which is bidenomics, that's going to be likely what we see this afternoon. i would be surprised if we got any comment from the president on this. >> sandra: ok, and the latest update that we are getting from the pool is that he is on time, and that they do still expect that speech will begin at 2:45 eastern time. the live shot in maryland we expect him to be in shortly. we are getting some congressional reaction. hillary vaughn is on the hill, she heard from jamie raskin, says i have no reaction that i believe -- other than that i believe in the rule of law and the court system. he says we have to stand by the rule of law and what the courts do. we can applaud the fact the system and the courts are working. i don't think people should applaud when it works for hunter biden and not when it works for donald trump.

we shouldn't take delight in other people's misfortunes. also, jacqui, we are hearing from eric swalwell, another democrat, sounds like prosecutor found no wrongdoing, if biden has credibility on gun control, allow the trump appointed prosecutor to stay on, we believe in the rule of law. just some reaction from the left right now. we have -- we are told james comer also just reacted quite a lengthy reaction, 2, 3 minutes long, we are turning the tape for the viewers and will have it in just a moment. jacqui, for now, seems like we should hear from and see the president a short time from now. >> jacqui: we do expect to hear him deliver this major economic speech. that's even fraught with some tension after yesterday's economic reports. consumer prices rising for the second straight month, much hotter pace than july, surprising economists and under

scoring the challenges the president is going to have in convincing voters that things are going well. but going back to hunter biden and that issue, you know, one big fear if you are watching this play out that democrats have, there will be in some voters' minds the ability from the right to sort of make equal the legal problems that former president trump is facing and the legal problems that this president is facing, that his family has. that is something they do not want to see play out. they think that weakens their chances in 2024. their whole message, plan has been that biden knows how to beat trump, he did it 2020, the best man to do it again. so it could be risky so they are trying to keep the focus on the areas that they want people to, you know, have first and foremost when you think of joe biden, they want you to think of bidenomics.

whether or not you can convince voters it's a good thing given the economic report -- >> sandra: sorry, jim jordan live on the hill. >> what you think may -- [indiscernible] >> i think speaker mccarthy has done a good job. [indiscernible] >> on the hunter biden indictment -- >> sandra: worth a shot. >> john: nothing from jim jordan there, talking about other business. looked like he was asked about it at the very end but turned and walked away. andy mccarthy is still with us, bring him back in, former assistant u.s. attorney and fox news contributor. you know, as we saw and we

covered, andy, with donald trump, one of the next orders of business here, i assume, will be for hunter biden to surrender to authorities, to likely have a mug shot taken and go through that process. do we know when that could potentially begin? >> well, they should have issued an arrest warrant in connection with the indictment. if they didn't do that, they should have made some kind of an arrangement with hunter's lawyers to allow him to surrender voluntarily. about you that is the kind of thing, john, that ought to happen within a few days. and i would just want to note about that that it should happen within a few days in delaware, and the reason i underscore that is in connection with what -- weiss's story has been regarding the failure to bring these charges over all these years, in particular with the tax charges

and the potential fara charges we discussed, is that especially with the tax stuff, that there were biden attorneys appointed in los angeles and washington, d.c. who were blocking him and because they wouldn't cooperate with him, he didn't have the jurisdiction to charge. now, i've always said i thought that was a ridiculous story because in the justice department when we have disputes like that what happens is the u.s. attorneys who are concerned go to main justice and the attorney general decides what to do, which means if garland had directed the u.s. attorneys in los angeles and washington to cooperate with weiss, those cases could have been brought. but the point i want to make here is that this firearms case, everything of importance that happened in it, happened in delaware. and this case has been open and shut and known for five years

and yet here we are at the very precipice of the statute of limitations where he brought the case basically because he got smoked out by a federal judge after he tried to disappear it seven weeks ago. >> sandra: ok, we have a brand-new reaction from james comer now on the hunter biden gun charges. and he says this, andy, the justice department sweetheart plea deal fell apart after a federal judge refused to rubber stamp it. mountains of evidence reveals hunter biden likely committed several felonies and americans expect the justice department to apply the law equally. the charges are a small start but unless u.s. attorney weiss involves everyone involved it will be clear president biden's doj protecting hunter biden and the big guy, and here he is in his own words a few moments ago on the hill. >> that's one of about a dozen crimes that hunter biden has committed and ironically, the one crime that he committed that

you cannot tie joe biden to. so we'll see what happens with the other 11 or so crimes that the president's son's committed. >> sounds like you are still expressing skepticism, the idea that you wanted an indictment from your perspective here, that's not enough? >> indictment for money laundering, violation of the foreign agent registration act, tax evasion, the list goes on and on. you have never heard me say anything about gun charges, so again, that's the one crime he's committed that you cannot tie to joe biden. >> do you think it shows it's not politicized? >> we'll see, that was an easy charge. you have heard the irs whistleblowers testifying on the oversight committee about the tax evasion crimes and according to the whistleblowers, weiss, when he was a u.s. attorney, let the statute of limitations expire on some of the tax crimes, but not all the tax

crimes. so, i'm still holding out hope that weiss does the right thing. this is the -- again, the one charge that -- the least of all the dozen crimes he's committed, the one charge, the one crime that joe biden wasn't -- >> are you suggesting something nefarious there, keep it in that lane and away from your investigation. >> all i'm saying is the facts. one crime -- >> that sounds you are suggesting foul play going on with handling -- >> i don't know, i'm not suggesting anything. this is the one crime you cannot tie joe biden into. >> do you think it will have impact on the impeachment inquiry at all? >> absolutely not. >> what's your response to [indiscernible] >> what do you mean? >> like you said this morning to bring it on, like -- >> yeah. no, i mean -- we need -- we had into fund the government and prevent a shutdown and move

forward. i want to make cuts as bad as anyone. i hope that we can get agreement on that. i recognize that we have a senate that does not want to cut anything and a president that sure as heck doesn't want to cut anything. so it's difficult when you are a one-third of the pie but certainly we need to do everything we can to keep the government open. that should be our priority over the next two and a half weeks. >> what is the hard evidence that -- >> what is the hard -- i have not said he should be impeached. this is impeachment inquiry. we have proven the president lied about ever speaking to or meeting with all these foreign nationals that were wiring his family money. his family got $20 million from foreign nationals and nobody knows one single thing they did to earn that money, that should be a national security concern to anyone. so, with this inquiry we are going to investigate. thank goodness we are investigating because you know, some of you are doing a good job but some of you have not done a

good job reporting on all the suspicious activity from the biden family. so, we are not talking about impeachment, we are talking about impeachment inquiry to give me the tools to be able to get all the information that we need to wrap up this investigation. >> sandra: first on the hunter biden indictment and then obviously talking about the impeachment inquiry, david spunt with an update, the judge is still not assigned. first appearance, not scheduled yet. but john, andy, andy is joining us as well. jake gibson also updating to what we know about the penalties. if convicted, he faces, hunter biden, a maximum penalty of 25 years in prison. actual sentences for federal crimes are typically less than the maximum penalties. a federal district court judge will determine any sentence after considering the u.s. sentencing guidelines and other factors. >> john: that statement came from the department of justice

itself as it was outlining the charges. so that's important, the idea he faces a total of 25 years in prison but the actual sentences are typically less than the maximum penalty. factor in, too, that he would probably be considered a first time offender, and as kerri kupec was pointing out earlier, might not even face jail time. i think andy mccarthy suggested it could be fines as well. but does this president want his sole surviving child to have this on his record and might he fall on his political sword and pardon him. that's one of the questions we are looking at this afternoon. >> sandra: and andy mccarthy is still with us on the breaking news, hunter biden indictment has been issued after the plea deal collapsed and false statement and purchase of a firearm, a colt cobra .38 resolver, and information required to be kept by federal

firearms dealer, and count three, possession of a firearm by a person who was unlawful user of or addicted to a controlled substance. on or about october 12, 2018, through october 23, 2018, andy, these are just the facts involved in that count. hunter biden knew he was an unlawful user of and addicted to drugs of other controlled substances, knowingly possessed a firearm, said firearm was shipped and transported in interstate commerce. max penalty, ten years in prison, $250,000 fine, three years supervised release. please let people know what more they need to know about this at this moment, andy. >> well, i think again that that last count, sandra, that you alluded to is a response or a strategic move by weiss to try to remove this case out of the critique that's made about b

biden -- that people make false statements and never prosecuted. those are lie and try cases. this count underscores he did not lie and try, he lied and he actually got the gun, and it will allow weiss to get into not only that he got the gun, but how they handled it -- how it was handled and how the gun was eventually lost. to the point about the sentencing, you are quite right about the sentencing guidelines, how the judge would impose a sentence that is ordinarily far below the statutory maximum when you count up the different counts. but here, i would also point out that if he gets convicted, biden will have more to play with than the usual defendant does because you have a prosecutor who seven weeks ago actually was prepared to make this case go away with no jail time. so the defense will be able to

argue to the judge that even by the government's assessment of this, hunter biden shouldn't do any jail time. >> john: we got more reaction coming from the hill. sandra read a little of what jamie raskin had to say, but we have him on camera now, take a look at that. >> i have no reaction other than, you know, i believe in the rule of law and i believe in the court system and so we should stand by the courts as they engage in their work. whether we are talking about hunter biden or donald trump or anybody else. >> john: interesting the perspective the democratic lawmakers have on it now. we have been talking to kerri kupec here about the idea of where does the case potentially go from here. you were saying that you believe this gun charge could be low hanging fruit in the overall case. >> oh, it's totally low hanging fruit and i think that's what representative comer was trying to say and i think andy said

this before, this case could have been brought in a week. i don't know if it took five years, it's strange but we obviously have speculated as to why that could be. but for sure, and i think where hunter is much more vulnerable is with respect to the tax cases, with respect to fara, and as comer said possibly money laundering. and sent a letter to doj saying some of the payments that hunter biden made to prostitutes, to escorts, that looked to have been written off as possible business expenses were flagged by the financial institutions receiving those payments as possible human trafficking. so, that is something that i think we should keep our eye on, and so just another avenue that could be ahead for david weiss and his team as they continue to investigate hunter biden. >> sandra: kerri, putting on your political hat for a moment, there is no white house press briefing but the president is delivering a speech a short time from now. do you expect a statement from the white house as this news is

developing right now? >> from this white house? probably not. i would say, though, as far as timing is concerned with even weiss bringing this indictment today, let's not forget merrick garland is set to testify before congress next week, and you know, as andy mentioned, you know, at this point, i don't know if there was coordination before, there should have been at some point. these are big charges when you are indicting the president's son you would think the u.s. attorneys were working with main justice, but in some ways weiss bringing the indictment today before garland has to testify before congress next week, it helps get people maybe off garland's back, it could have been coordinated. merrick garland can say when he testifies before congress, we indicted hunter biden last week, what do you want from me. i made david weiss special counsel, indicted hunter biden last week, it could have been a tactic, the timing. >> john: two questions on that

front. first of all, comer said this is the only crime that hunter biden has committed that does not have a connection to joe biden. so keeping your political hat on, this adds -- may not be a connection, but this adds a lot of heat and in washington, heat counts for a lot. so what's the potential political impact for biden now as there's clearly, politically, blood in the water and probably gives more impetus for these house investigations to get a lot more public exposure, i guess, being and what potential ties all of that could have to joe biden. >> this is a very bad week for joe biden. you have david ignatius writing his column, that joe biden shouldn't be running again, democrats are sounding the alarm about biden's potential run, don't think he should run and now his son indicted, impeachment inquiry lost, i don't know that you could put together a worst week for a

sitting president of the united states. as far as how the white house reacts to that, karine will probably refer to the white house counsel's office, i think they could answer some questions about this. >> john: second question i had, you said if garland appears before the committee scheduled next week, i charged the president's son, appointed a special counsel. had weiss not been appointed special counsel do you think the charges would have been brought? >> i think had not that sweetheart deal been presented this have not been brought. they pushed it through -- i'm sorry, they tried to obscure it, as andy said, pushed it through, tried to make the case good away. again, we have to take a step back and remember the facts here. hunter biden was literally about to walk away from all of this just seven weeks ago. and now he's indicted, a special counsel investigating him, the same week that an impeachment inquiry is launched against his father, and that democrats are

saying joe biden should not run anymore, it's a political disaster. >> sandra: i meant to jump in earlier on kjp, no briefing, but remember this moment, we played it last hour as this was breaking. july 27th, asked about a possible pardon for his son. >> any possibility the president would end up pardoning his son? >> no. i answered, i just said no. >> sandra: did this surprise you in the moment? >> not really, with all due respect to the white house press secretary, she made a lot of conflicting statements about classified documents joe biden did or did not own, where they were, and we all had to live through that for weeks. so the credibility, unfortunately, is not particularly high when she speaks on behalf of the president and look, at the end of the day this is his son, people act with emotion with their children. they can change their minds. obviously joe biden i think we

can all probably agree there's a bit of a blind spot or something when it comes to hunter in the way he has him around all the time despite all the allegations and now charges, he continues to include him on air force one trips and the white house, which sends a very, i think, strange message to the american people about consequences for actions. >> sandra: kerri, thank you so much. we have been getting congressional reaction, chad pergram has been all around the capital, hearing from members of congress. what have you heard so far, chad? >> you heard james comer, the chair of the oversight committee conducting this impeachment investigation, he kept saying repeatedly that he said this is the one charge that has nothing to do with some of the things that we are investigating on the oversight committee. and i asked comer repeatedly did he think something nefarious was going on there and he said i'm just saying. some reaction, adam schiff, the democrat from california, one of the key players in the

impeachment of former president trump in 2019, he says that he does not believe this hurts the president politically. jamie raskin, the ranking democrat on the oversight committee says i believe in the rule of law and i believe in the courts and we should stand by what the courts are doing. we also have dan goldman, the democratic representative from new york, again he was a key player in the trump impeachment in the fall and winter of 2019. and he says if hunter biden committed crimes he should be held accountable. but he's a private citizen and the republicans have no, trying to read my notes here, said he's a private citizen and the gop has no connection between joe biden and hunter biden. the other thing i thought was interesting, right as this news broke, marjorie taylor green, the republican from georgia walked up and was asked about the potential challenge to house speaker kevin mccarthy, some conservatives are saying they might want to conduct a no

confidence vote and immediately pivoted to the hunter biden indictment, and said why aren't you asking me about this, and a host of other things she thought hunter biden should be charged with. >> sandra: ok, chad pergram, jump back on with breaking developments from the hill. >> john: what a change we see, sandra, from where we were seven weeks ago as kerri was mentioning. remember, we were covering hunter biden going to that courtroom, judge mary ellen noreika to sign off on the plea agreements and plea agreement, and joining us congressman darrell issa. your response to the news of the day. >> i think it's long overdue. these were clear criminal acts of the son of the vice -- of the president. but as said by marjorie taylor green, there are other things which we have clear evidence of.

some of them we believe statute of limitations haven't expired, that need to be looked at. >> sandra: sorry, we hear the commotion behind you on the hill, a lot of activity obviously in the last week or two as you all have returned. i'm going back and looking through some of the interviews the president granted, the few of them, over the past six months or so, in which joe biden maintained he has great confidence in his son, saying that hunter did nothing wrong, this thing about a gun, i didn't know anything about it. we are going to pull the tape but i mean, he has maintained throughout and held confidence in his son and said he believes he did nothing wrong, to the point we just played out the tape of kjp, the press secretary, july 27th saying this is not even a consideration to have to pardon his son. how do you tie all that together

and what do you make of all that now knowing this indictment has been issued? >> well, i'm always going to give the benefit of the doubt to the father, he wants and believes the best for his son. i'm more concerned about him saying he never had conversations about the business before that, he said he never had any contact about the business. those turn out not to be true, so i'm concerned about those more than i am the statement of a father that he loves his son or wants to have confidence his son is going towards the straight and narrow when he isn't. >> john: so, you know, as we go forward here with the three house investigations and this impeachment inquiry, what momentum do these charges potentially add to that process? james comer said this is the only crime that hunter biden has committed that does not have ties to his father. we don't know of any crimes are tied to joe biden at this point

there is no proof of that brought forward so far by the house investigations. but do you believe even though that this is unrelated, that it will give momentum to the house impeachment inquiries? >> it certainly gives us a reason to work as expeditiously as possible, lest we get another plea bargain that gives him immunity from other actions he may have done. remember, we are following $20 million of money that flowed into shell companies created by hunter biden and currently we don't have the data of where that money got spent. it may or may not have fallen to the benefit of others, including the president. but what we do have, we do have a president who said he knew nothing about his son's dealings, never talked to him. we now have witnesses that have made it clear that they were on calls with the president when the president injected himself into business-related calls. so we do have a connection to hunter biden and his businesses but we are going to follow the money as we appropriately

should. >> sandra: ok, so congressman, jonathan turley, who was joining us a few moments ago, he said this may be the first child of a sitting president ever indicted. he said he previously raised the possibility that biden could pardon hunter and then cite that ower as a reason for declining to run for re-election. can you fathom that being a possibility? >> well, i certainly think that gerald ford made a decision on behalf of our nation to pardon richard nixon and it ended his political career as president. so, there is a precedent, if you will, of pardoning having consequences. but in this case, it would be premature and inappropriate. a pardon that serves to obstruct a congressional investigation is definitely premature. if he chooses on his way out of office to pardon anyone, our founding fathers made that an absolute right and i would respect that, even if i

disagreed with it. >> john: obviously the court process is going to take a while, they have not even set a date yet for a surrender or a preliminary hearing, let alone anything else. it's possible that this might not even go to trial until after there is either a change at the white house or president biden begins his second term. so we don't know if there would be, you know, a pardon post that should hunter biden be convicted or might be a preemptive one, so again all of this is gaming out the potential possibilities here. but what do you see as the overall political impact of all of this on president biden, given the fact that many democrats are now defecting by including david ignatius, a real fan of this president, who said in the "washington post" the other day, as much as i like the guy, he needs to step down, or say he's not running for re-election. >> well, i think the calls for

it or the combination of this particular scandal, but also some of the other clearer limitations of the president to do his job. you know, he's been on vacation almost as often as he's been in the white house. but having said that, look, the fact that we are this close to an election, that the two front runners by large amount are both being questioned as to whether the best candidates of their parties does mean that the field should be open to democrats to look at their possible alternatives, and of course the field is open to republicans to look at viable alternatives and they are. >> sandra: very interesting. congressman, what are you hearing as far as other congressional reaction on the hill now? >> i think people are trying not to look overly happy. this is a tragedy, this is a young man, somewhat young man who has drug problems, who has criminal problems, and who can't seem to get past those problems. so, is it a distraction for the

president, yes. would it have been better if the president from day one had said i'm staying away from it, and if he had kept himself from participating in his son's businesses, both during his vice president and afterwards, yes. but we are where we are and it's going to continue. remember one thing, during the vice presidency, there was a request to serve the home of hunter biden and it was turned down because it was the guest house of the vice president. so there have been a number of events during the years that have really thwarted this investigation that congress has to look past. >> john: all right, congressman darrell issa, the great state of california, thank you for being with us. appreciate it. so let's go back to kerri kupec urbahn, this is the first, first time sandra pointed out a presidential son has been

indicted. in some way, we saw that with president trump, too, when he was indicted in manhattan. in some ways do you think this greases the skids for potential indictment on the taxes, investigation into potential fara violations, came out in court it could be one of the things weiss is looking into. once you have gotten over the threshold, is it easier to bring other charges? >> and doj is now under tremendous pressure to bring other charges, given what the irs whistleblowers allege. that really john was the game changer, the testimony from the irs whistleblowers. for them to have said they never had seen this kind ever stonewalling or blocking of their investigations and all of their times in the irs, but that happened over and over and over, with respect to not just hunter biden, but joe biden. so, that is really what started all of this last spring, and those two individuals saying what they have said opened up a

whole pandora's box, so to speak, of things now all the american people are wondering. did doj look at that, the fbi look at that, and now three chairmens of committees in congress pushing these questions as well, all have their own investigations happening, which is part of, you know, related to the impeachment inquiry and they have been very aggressive. james comer, jason smith, jim jordan and chuck grassley. chuck grassley was way ahead on this before anyone else was. so i think between those members leaning in so hard plus the irs teony, and garland testifying next week, and doj is trying to compel weiss to answer questions as well, i think this is just the beginning. >> john: and one of the pieces of thread that congressional investigators are pulling on is this idea that i think it was october of 22 -- yeah, october of '22, a meeting in which david weiss said i was prevented from bringing charges against hunter

biden. who prevented him from bringing charges? and of course the doj and the white house are saying no, no, no, that's not true, even show shapley and other colleagues were saying it. and now an fbi investigator corroborating what shapley said, weiss did say i can't bring charges against hunter biden. so, how deep does that go? >> something is not adding up, and why it's important for the american people to hear directly from merrick garland and david weiss. and the 2020 meeting. >> john: memory fails. >> there was a 2020 and 2022 meeting, the problem, john, and i found this to be the case when i was at the department of justice, you often have people not part of the executive leadership but the hands and feet, so to speak, they were the ones executing the investigation, implymenting

various protocols of the department of justice but not always privy to the conversations happening above them and sometimes people with assign bad motive or question what was happening above them thinking it's got to be this, it's got to be that, and that's my only question mark with respect to the meeting. seems to be intercoconflicting testimony. weiss came out and said i was not prevented, but if he wasn't prevented, why did he ask to become special counsel. questions that just don't make any sense. end then you have the fbi agent says what she said as well but also said well some of this happened before my time even. so again, this is why it's very important for the american people to hear directly from the attorney general and ideally david weiss as well. >> john: and i want to come back to a question we asked in the last hour, perhaps there are folks tuning in now who were not watching your fine analysis last hour, and that is the question of seven weeks ago as you

pointed out we were following hunter biden into a courtroom in delaware where it seemed to be just a pro for ma matter he was going to sign the documents and all of this was going to go away, and now we go from that to a federal indictment with three counts and who knows what lies ahead. the i mean, shakespeare said it once, something is rotten in denmark and a lot of people are looking at this saying maybe something is rotten in delaware, too. >> and something you and i have discussed before. the delaware way, right, and this is this cozy engaging between politics and law enforcement that often has a dark under belly of corruption. david weiss talked about this under belly of corruption himself with respect to payments, campaign donations made to joe biden found out to be illegal, many, many years ago, and david weiss at the time said yeah, this delaware way, this corrupt way of doing business when you are in power is a real thing and it happens

here all the time. this is why this is particularly interesting he is special counsel, looking at hunter and again, we have to keep reminding ourselves and others there is a special counsel looking into joe biden as well in the classified documents. we have heard nothing from robert her yet. >> john: and if it weren't for judge noreika who looked at the diversion agreement and said this does not look right to me, looked at the prosecutors, have you seen this before, and no, we have not seen anything like this before. if she wasn't there running traps on that agreement, we would be in a very different place today. >> 100%. it's remarkable, and this was again, just basic, basic questioning from the judge asking, she's looking at this and saying, i've never seen anything look this in my life, and doj said oh, yeah, it is, and they are the ones to put it together. delaware way, this corruption,

idea of the biden family business people talk about sometimes. joe biden himself has talked glowingly about the delaware way. the way he characterizes it as this friendly way, non-partisan, we link arms and do things together, which is interesting. and he even said i want to bring the delaware way to washington, d.c. and here we are. >> john: kerri, thanks. stick with us. sandra. >> sandra: patrick murphy, former democratic congressman and former under secretary of the army and tammy bruce, i'll get your top line thoughts in a moment. interesting reaction coming in now from one of the gop presidential candidates, vivek ramaswamy on today's indictment of hunter biden. he calls it a smoke screen, says don't fall for it. this is a fig leaf designed to deflect attention away from the real problem, he writes on twitter. the biden family selling out

u.s. foreign policy for their financial gain, that's what is wrong, a lengthy statement i would take too much time on television to read right now. but this is just an example of the varying degrees of reaction we are hearing, congressional reaction and beyond. >> it is a big story. it's bigger than just hunter biden getting a sweetheart deal. what's fascinating and including in the previous conversation is that not only did the doj sign off on this, but they didn't even consider what the judge might do or what the judge might say. there was a presumption this would be the way it goes, that this would just be stepping forward indicating that this is how things have happened before. but it was so strange, even the judge -- it was so obvious, like this had never been handled like this before. it was completely new. so, that's one aspect of how the system shifted and said no, wait a minute, it just took one judge to do that. but i think for the american

people, the larger story based on the 2016 election and everything before, is that things are not as they appear to be, that there is something else going on the american people has been lied to, the two-tier system of justice, of course. but that means that we are being gaslit all the time about who is getting, you know, justice who isn't, what the government is doing. maybe it's the internet, maybe it's our generation, maybe it was donald trump, maybe the mood of the world, now we find out we don't like what we see and this could be an indication of we have to do something and they are hoping the rest of it will just good away. >> sandra: your reaction after i first played this. may 5th, 2023, the president himself speaking about his son, listen. >> my son has done nothing wrong. i trust him. i have faith in him. and impacts my presidency by making me feel proud of him. >> sandra: your response. >> son clearly did something

wrong and that's why you are having -- he got the plea deal that we are talking about over a month ago for the misdemeanor for the taxes. this is a bigger deal. this is a felony, a gun, lying on a gun form when he was under the influence of drugs, and check the box, i'm a gun owner, i had to go through the same process. but i think unlike tammy, with all due respect, i think the big story is here if you are a fox viewer or msnbc viewer, it's the rule of law. united states of america, no one is above the law, whether you are the former president of the united states or current president's son. and so i think hunter biden clearly is being held accountable, he's going to be held accountable for lying on that form and that's why the plea deal -- >> sandra: don't know that part yet. >> only because of the outrage. we were watching two very different situations, punishing political opponents, throwing everything and the kitchen sink at one guy and then waltz the president's son through another

dynamic who now we are seeing seems to have been involved with the president himself, his business dealings and that's another big story. >> sandra: i read off jonathan turley who joined us early, may be the first child of a sitting president ever indicted. went on to say, i'll share this portion of it, little room for defense beyond what i previously raised. challenging the constitutionality of the underlying law under the second amendment. however to do so hunter would be challenging the law his father supports with cases his father has condemned, could present political problems for the president. >> i don't think so, the president is in a tough spot and his son is -- his son was under the influence of illegal drugs and no one has made an excuse, not end the president. >> patrick, the fact we all feel lied to with through the

campaign and what biden presented himself as, we feel lied to about what hunter biden was doing, "new york post" being censored, and laptops. lie after lie. >> hunter biden has published a book talking about his drug use. >> they have not lying about that. but the process. >> he didn't pay his taxes, which is wrong and checked the wrong box and lied on a form trying to get a gun, a colt weapon. >> sandra: tammy's point, let's get the president's own words in here. pulled another clip from an interview with the president. listen here. >> by the way, this thing about a gun, i didn't know anything about it. but turns out that when he -- application to purchase a gun, what happens was he, i guess get asked, i don't guess, you get asked the question, are you on drugs or used drugs, and he said no, and he wrote about saying no in his book.

so i have great confidence in my son. >> sandra: that ties both your points together, october last year. >> it would be nice to get a pass if you write about your crimes. >> let's be clear, the former president has four indictments on him. when he had the insurrection on january 6, 3 cops were killed. i'm not making an excuse for it. >> you are deflecting. it's hard because there is no real excuse. >> believer in the rule of law and accountability or you don't. when the shoe is on this foot, he should be held accountable. on that foot, the former president should be held accountable as well. >> yeah, and no effort or i think no one has been arguing that donald trump has been getting a pass on anything, whether it exists in real life or not. i mean, the fbi, we have also seen and this is troubling i know for you and for everyone in the country, willing to make things up to try to frame

someone. many americans, particularly people of color, young black men have argued that we keep getting set-up. the justice system comes after us. americans have experienced the dynamic in realtime where this is a big issue for all of us, and then we see other people get coddled, that is not the american way. we are not naive, this is an imperfect system with imperfect people. the basic standard which keeps the country together and functioning as a representative democracy and a republic is because we believe that there is a structure of justice and freedom and fairness and we have not seen that. this has to change. >> sandra: add more congressional reaction, senator mike braun, i hope weiss does not consider his job done, an impeachment inquiry is the only way we are going to get to the truth on hunter biden's influence peddling abroad and

how involved president biden was in the business dealings. >> as a former federal prosecutor and congressman, in the justice system where it should be. the indictment, they need to make it now, the statute of limitations ends in october. this has nothing to do with governing or the president. this is hunter biden in the personal capacity bought a weapon and lied about it on the application. the president was not holding his hand. >> you did mention the tax problems, and that's a massive amount of income coming in, not just to hunter but other biden family members and link through to joe biden. >> we didn't know that. >> that's what the investigation. >> but that has not been -- >> we know through bank records, know through other investigations and that's what's important about the impeachment investigation. this is where you subpoena that kinds of information.

and if you are innocent you should welcome it, because then you will be exonerated. >> i think people are conflating the two issues here. we should in the country, whether you are the former president or the president's son now, no one, no one is above the law. not even hunter biden, and no offense, not even the perform president trump. >> i think that's what the system is for to get to the truth of the matter, even when the department of justice will lie about you and bring aggressive points about you. >> sandra: i gave her -- >> for an american, i have a problem when i'm here at fox news and people are bashing law enforcement across america. my farther served. >> sandra: who is bashing law enforcement? >> politicized department of justice. you know better than that. >> sandra: rule of law, we heard you and your final thoughts. appreciate you joining us. bring in senate -- sorry, john, toss it to you in washington.

bring in the senator. >> john: thank you, john thune, the great state of south dakota is with us. your thoughts on all the big news this afternoon. >> well, we have an indictment, and the justice system needs to work. a lot of questions surrounding hunter biden on many levels. these are gun charges, firearms possession charges today, but everything dealing with the ukraine involvement, and potential connection with the president, we need to follow the fact and that's what the investigations are about. >> john: it is being investigated by three house committees, some reluctance among many of your senate colleagues for what's going on in the house. you said there is enough smoke there to support an inquiry. are you comfortable with what chairman comer, jordan and smith are doing? >> we heard from comer and

jordan and briefed the senate on the investigations, and a lot of bad conduct there and a lot of information that's being -- that the biden administration is stonewalling on providing to the investigative committees, and so i think this is a natural next step. go where the facts -- where the facts lead on this, and i think there, as i said yesterday, there is a lot of smoke there, and usually that much smoke there is some fire. >> john: we have been talking about this this afternoon with these indictments, three-count indictment, of hunter biden, how far away we are from where we were seven weeks ago, when he walked into judge mary ellen noreika's courtroom in delaware expecting to pro forma sign some documents and walk scott free with the promise of future immunity, and now what system of justice was applied to this fellow? >> that's the other question that hopefully the investigation will get at. one, it's about his conduct, for

sure. but secondly, about how the justice department handled this case and those are all things i think need to be investigated and you know, clearly it has evolved a lot from what we knew. and the more we know, the more smelly it gets and that's why the good work being done by the house of representatives and committees is critical. >> john: biden says doj is clear of political influence, and merrick garland said we are independent from influence from the white house. but when you see a deal like what was cut seven weeks ago out there, which is now turned into, and this is maybe just the first shoe to drop, into a three-count federal indictment, is the doj free from political influence? >> i hate to say this about the department of justice but the burden of proof on them. the american people cannot abide

with two systems of justice. we know the conduct is reprehensible, the treatment at least initial treatment when the charges were brought seemed to be very unusual given the nature and -- of the allegations, and i think this is, so this -- this story is not done yet and i think there is a lot of smoke there. >> john: the picture on the left-hand side of the screen is the building where david weiss's office is, nothing going on outside there, they have spoken through the indictment. this could be as many of our guests have illustrated today, be just the beginning, because there is still the tax charges that are out there, how do they relate to what business hunter biden was doing overseas, how do the businesses potentially connect to joe biden, was there an fara violation here, prosecutors in david weiss's office have suggested that could be part of the investigation.

this may not tie directly to the president but could some of this other stuff still out there in the ether. >> that's what we have to find out and basically follow the money. that's what the investigations are getting at is the money trail and does it lead back to the white house, does it lead back to joe biden. and we don't know the answers to that. largely because the biden administration has been stonewalling these investigative committees when it comes to providing investigation, and moving forward with an inquiry gives them more subpoena powers, a greater ability to get the information they need to make some decisions and determinations. if you look at where this is leading and the amount of information that's come forward and the kinds of clues out there, this needs a much broader examination and i think that's what these committees are going to do. >> john: we are expecting the president would start his remarks on the economy about 13 minutes ago, you were a colleague of his in the senate,

you know him quite well, he's been there forever. how do you think he responds to what happens today? >> i don't know. i mean, i think we are all going to be interested to see. he's been very defensive, has not wanted to answer any questions. i don't think he can pull that off. i think the american people are going to demand answers and they should. >> john: do you think it sticks to him politically? >> i think it does. and one of the reasons he is stuck where he is with his approval rating and everything else, it ties back to the economy for sure and the border and other issues but i think it has to do, too, with people's perception of him and how he's handled the situation with his son. >> john: we'll see. at some point he's going to take to the lecturn and give his remarks. senator thune, good to see you. appreciate it. well, sandra, that was an action-packed thursday. >> sandra: i think we sensed it, we sensed it this afternoon was going to pick up. >> john: we had a sense something was coming, didn't know when. >> sandra: quite a news

afternoon and our coverage will certainly continue. president is about to speak on the economy, john, and certainly listening for news from that. >> john: you can bet that reporters will be shouting questions at him when he finishes his remarks even if he mentions this. >> sandra: great to be with you, john. thanks for joining us on "america reports". i'm sandra smith. >> john: i'm john roberts. we will see you again tomorrow when it's fri-yay, meantime, martha with "the story." >> martha: lots to pick up on here as "the story" continues to break this afternoon. i'm martha maccallum. good to be with you, everybody. a huge turn of events today for the president's son, hunter biden. he has now been indicted on federal charges. that as his father right now is about to take the stage in maryland. he wanted this afternoon to be all about touting the economy, bidenomics, but as we know, this week he's facing calls to step aside. so we will watch some of that in just a moment.