explosives as a result of whether attempted intercession by border personnel or just because it went off in error. >> john: bill, just to throw another thought into that mix. apparently the vehicle was going from the american side to the canadian side. and not to say that canada is immune from terrorism, but you would expect if there was going to be an act of terrorism, it would be perpetrated on the american side and not the canadian side. >> yeah, i mean -- certainly that's our immediate assumption. again, we don't know what the plan designs were of these individuals. i'm assuming we will quickly know once their identities are found out by the fbi and various intelligence agencies who they may be, but it does raise the questions when incidents like this have occurred, 9/11 is the benchmark on that, also looking for other incidents to be

happening at the same time, whether one is a diversionary one or other plans to happen simultaneously. so, whether this was an errant explosion, and the explosions were heading elsewhere, we don't know what the intended targets may have been, if this was not the target they selected. >> gillian: bill, obviously when you look at a situation like this, it's way too early in the process to talk about motivations, but do you have any sense based on just the geography, the very bare phones facts we have here, the fact this was likely a car bomb, that they were going from the u.s. or trying to go from the u.s. to canada. does that speak to you and your background expertise about what types of terror organizations might be interested in conducting something like this? >> yeah, it's very difficulty point to kind of come to any of those assumptions. certainly we know that the fbi director wray just over the past

few days has reiterated concerns about potential terrorist activities, emanating from the war with gaza and other various groups who may be, you know, encouraged to commit such acts, whether they happen to be from organized terrorist organizations or sympathetic individuals just trying to carry out such acts. again, without any more specificity, it's very difficult to determine, but again, you know, was something, the harbinger of this made clear by the fbi director in testimony before congress and then certainly at different news conferences over the past few weeks. so i guess, you know, in that sense, we don't need to be too surprised something did occur. but where it occurred, how it occurred, i think those questions cause in my mind's eye that there was maybe this was not the intended target, that it was something else that was potentially the target, you know, there have been cases in

the past explosive materials have been moved or in the process of being moved and they in error go off, for whatever reason or in this case perhaps approached and thought they would be found out and they decided to explode the device there. again, the bridge itself becomes a much more difficult target if you are not attacking the infrastructure underneath it and the support systems. >> john: david spunt who covers the justice department reminds what christopher wray said, he said here in the united states our most immediate concern is violent extremist individuals or small groups will draw inspiration from the events in the middle east to carry out attacks against americans going about their daily lives. he went on to say here in the united states, oh, no, sorry, repeat of the same thing. but here is a question for you, bill, and that is these likely would not have been people who

came into the united states yesterday. it's easy enough to procure a vehicle, but you've got to procure explosives as well. and then you have to have the know how to put those together into a vehicle. now again, maybe this vehicle exploded accidentally which would indicate potentially a level of expertise with explosives that was less than competent, or maybe they just thought that they were going to get caught and decided to pull the trigger on it. but this is something that would have required some measure of planning. >> you are right, john. and if we are -- if the information we are receiving now, which of course as we know from covering these cases in the past, the early information is not granular enough to base decisions and often it changes, but if they were leaving from the u.s. and going to the canadian side, we don't know whether the canada was the intended target, or come back to the united states or some other

portal, we don't know these things. but you are right, it would take some preplanning and you know, we talk about people who have explosive, could they have go off in error because they were not competent, there are not too many, you know, expert or professional bomb makers except for people who may come from our military or have that experience. so for people decide to do it and assemble the material, it was likely somewhat done in more of an amateur fashion. i would say to your point, john, getting the materials needed to create such an explosion, there are some readily available devices that can be created through materials from home and gathered from various home improvement stores. we know fertilizer and certainly diesel fuel have been used in the past, first world trade center bombing, destroy the interior part of the parking

garage at the world trade center. so things could be purchased and available, it does show there was some planning, some other plan afoot here, ultimately we have to look at. >> gillian: the fed, including christopher wray has been warning about increased threats to the homeland resulting from the israel-hamas war. just a few days ago a warning particular to large gatherings. be wary of things like the macy's thanksgiving day parade in new york city, attracts millions of people. this is certainly not that. is there any indication or concern the terrorist folks got this one wrong? >> well, you know, again, just based on the information we have right now, it's very unclear what their intended target is, or who these people are, but it could have been an errant discharge or discharge once they were found they decided to explode the vehicle and the act not exactly what their intent was. i think what the director is

saying, similar to what we are seeing and concern during confrontation with isis, is that people here in the homeland, in the u.s., can be kind of invoked or compassion in one of these causes, and then therefore become the perpetrators of these incidents. so, it doesn't mean that people are sent here from terrorist organizations. possibly it could be, it could be people have come across the border and come into the u.s. or as we know through 9/11 hijackers who came in through actually illegal immigration status, so it's hard to say. i think what the director was saying and perhaps proves in this case, people who are inspired by what they see and hear it invokes emotional response to commit one of these acts and that's what he was talking about. and unfortunately the traumatic impact a large gathering of

people where there's residual effects and innocent people harmed by it causes a lot more attention to whomever was committing one of these acts. so i think that's what he was talking about. just a couple years ago we had the terrible parade incident where people were mowed down by an individual who was invoked by his own desires to commit such a heinous act. so it goes to show you that people are out there and that potentially there could be encouraged to do this by what they see and hear on television and see and hear in the streets during the protests that have been occurring the past few weeks. >> john: hey, bill, stand by, we'll want to come back to you. but somewhere else at the moment. >> gillian: bring in vivek ramaswamy, candidate for president. sir, are you with us? >> yes, i am. how are you? >> gillian: thank you for taking time with us. what do you make of these early

reports this was a thwarted or an attempted terror attack at the new york-canada border? >> well, look, i have been sounding the alarm bell about the northern border for a long time. i visited the northern border earlier, the only presidential candidate to do it. that's why the new frontier of the border crisis is actually going. we have a bad crisis at the northern border. more fentanyl was captured at the northern border last year than could kill 3 million americans. new hampshire last fall, brazilian ex-military man who was captured and apprehended who had killed 11 people. so, this is a mounting crisis, we are ignoring it, the crisis at the southern border needs to be dealt with but cannot cause complacency to the northern border either. it's sad what's happening. >> john: we were going to talk to you about other issues including politics, but given the breaking news this afternoon we better stick with this. there have been, and eric shawn pointed this out earlier, attempts for people with

territoristic intentions to come across the border from canada into the united states. one of the most famous is somebody who was apprehended trying to come across in washington state with designs on mounting a terror attack against lax. what we are hearing in the initial minutes after this, vivek, this was a vehicle that was actually on the american side headed toward canada. according to some eyewitnesses and we have not heard it yet from official sources, was veering to try to drive into the cbp facility on the american side of the rainbow bridge and then blew up at one of these customs checkpoints. what does that suggest to you? >> well, look, those are facts evolving in realtime. take the lessons we can learn early on. the security at that northern border, i visited those cbp stations, it's not nearly as

serious as the southern border. border security goes for all security near the border, not just the other side but ours as well. and a situation in the country, we have a number of people, tens of thousands, who have entered the country with bad intentions and not just coming from the southern border, they are coming the northern border, too. 70,000 special interest aliens last year alone. protecting our homeland has not been a priority for a long time frankly in either political party. this is unfortunately another startling reminder of that reality. >> gillian: a lot of increased threats against the homeland during the ongoing israel-hamas war unfolding. we got the special warning a few days ago from the feds that there was an increased terror threat to large gatherings here

domestically. we know that for example new york state police have focused on the thanksgiving day parade tomorrow in manhattan, are you concerned they are chasing down the wrong leads, the wrong terror threats? >> i am concerned that law enforcement and unfortunately due to the bureaucracy and the department of homeland security and elsewhere has not had their eye on the right ball. the sad fact is, we are never going to know until god forbid something bad happens. the best policies are better and stronger border policies. we cannot have potential terrorists, potential people crossing the southern and increasingly the northern border as well. not enough of a focus and if that can happen in israel, has stronger border security than we do on october 7th, something like that absolutely could happen here in the united states of america. admitting that is uncomfortable, but the first step to being alert, to doing something about

it. so we have to at once seal both borders and take into account the aliens and special interest aliens who have entered. that's our best chance of making sure something like that doesn't happen here. >> john: we have no idea of what the motive was, whether it was an attack against a border facility or whether the vehicle was destined for someone else, but it has had the effect on the busiest travel day of the year to close down all of the border crossing in western new york between canada and the united states, and you can bet that a lot of people were going to be crossing those bridges in the hours ahead. and you alluded to this, see if you have some thoughts on this. we don't know how long the people who perpetrated this attack have been in this country. did they recently come across, come into the counselly illegally, legally, or illegally and claim asylum, nearly 1 million got-aways, radicalized

in this country, radicalized at all, did they come into the country that way, there are so many questions yet to be answered but given as you point out the situation that we have with immigration in this country, you just don't know who is coming in. >> and that's the shame, john. the reality is, we have no handle on who is coming into the country or on a daily basis. this is a time for reorientation of our own national defense objectives. national defense objectives have not focused enough on above all, defending the homeland itself. that's going to require a cultural reorientation, not only the department of homeland security but across our national security establishment. we have been distracted by conflicts in other parts of the world. yes, ideally you'll be able to do different things at once, but the top priority of the next president, when it comes to national security, to defend the homeland here at home and a big part of that, knowing what the

status quo is, we are badly lacking and missing today. that's one of the areas i do differ from some of the others in the presidential field, securing the homeland. it's the sole moral duty to the next u.s. president to the american citizens already here and we have no business prioritizing other objectives until we have protected ourselves and fellow americans here at home. >> gillian: you know, it was just earlier today i believe that john kirby told reporters that there was no credible specific threat to the homeland. so despite the broad termed federal level warnings they were not tracking the intelligence community here in america was not tracking a specific thread that led them to believe a particular target was in terrorist's cross hairs this holiday weekend. what are you hoping to hear from

the white house moving for this? >> i'm hoping to hear the truth. when i hear a statement like that, i don't believe them, that's the hard truth. they may state it with good intentions believing they are telling a noble lie that's been the consistent practice of the government, telling a noble lie because you believe people can't handle the truth. look at the warnings we are seeing, the signs like the news, the breaking news now. it's evidence that absolutely we are at heightened risk. we had 70,000 special interest alien crossings from middle east and others last year. the threat is heightened. and even with the best of intentions, biden administration and the john kirby's of the world want to quell fears and tell people don't worry about it i think that makes the problem worse. the obligation of the government is the truth, be transparent, we can handle the truth and will put us in the best position, i don't want to see it happen in

this country, but i would like the government to be candid with us, that's the best we can ask for and how i would lead if elected. >> john: vivek ramaswamy, thank you for spending time with us, appreciate it. >> thank you. >> john: alexis mcadams, what have you been hearing from your sources on this, alexis? >> hey, john, checking in with sources, telling me in the past 30 minutes or so they believe it's a terrorist attack in buffalo near the bridge. so, we want to show two pictures that we have been showing you throughout the day. or we just got them in. the aftermath of that explosion there. we know two men have died in that explosion. i was told its the passenger and the driver, john and gillian, as you were reporting earlier, coming from high level police sources they said the vehicle was travelling from the u.s. into canada, now hearing other information that could change that. but as we know, it's just the beginning stages.

one thing we do know for sure, the high level police source believes this was a terrorist attack. they don't believe that this was a car battery that exploded. they said this vehicle was full of explosive devices and the sources believe there was some planning that went into this. so, obviously a lot of concern happening there in buffalo, but also across the country as we have been talking about, the risk and the police presence on the ground, including here in new york city as we get ready to see thousands for the parade. but once again, this was a terrorist attack according to high level officials. they said they were trying to drive this vehicle toward the border patrol building and from the pictures and sources on the ground, the aftermath of the explosion, there is basically nothing left of this car. so in terms of asking who was in the vehicle, it's going to take a long time to identify the two people who were in the car. i asked them if they were known to police, any other

information, like license plate, u.s. license plate, and they said nothing is left at this time but will go through all the stages. the governor of new york is going to the scene, they have the federal authorities, local authorities and they are going to do everything they can to get it under control. and talked to someone on the ground and said they are going near the airport and checking vehicles near the airport for explosives, looking in people's trunks, and also happening near the bridge, the rainbow bridge in buffalo. that's what we know so far. >> gillian: stand by, we'll come back to you as the news warrant. a sound bite from the canadian police, ontario provincial police a moment ago. >> we have major issues happening right now at the u.s. borders in niagara region. right now we currently have the rainbow bridge closed in both directions in niagara falls, niagara police, parks police and

canada border services are working on an incident in that area. as a result, we have the fort erie peace bridge closed at the qew, from all crossings to or leaving canada. and closing 405, in the process as well of shutting the lewiston bridge and heavy delays in the niagara area, if you are planning on crossed border, please delay travel until we know those highways and closures have reopened. i will update you as i get information. for now, all board crossing in the niagara region are closed to traffic, coming and going, to and from the united states into canada. >> gillian: go ahead and bring in morgan ortagus, standing by with us. she is the founder of polaris national security. morgan, what's your initial reaction to this reporting? >> this brings me back to some

of my earliest days in iraq and afghanistan, i was there back in 2007, and essentially this is it what it was, a vehicle ied, what we are reporting this car was laden with, and that is something that was a hallmark in both iraq and afghanistan, especially in the height of u.s. fighting there. and it's still going on, still widely used. a few months ago there was about 30 people killed in afghanistan and a provincial governor killed, you reported on that as well. hallmark of terrorist groups. we saw both sunni and shia groups using this in iraq. and we had al-qaeda in iraq and later isis used these tactics. iran funds and trains shia groups that use the tactics as well. >> john: and we have seen them at the world trade center in 1993, and in oklahoma city after that. you have to wonder who would be

behind this, and what is the motive. the fact that this was perpetrated against a border protection facility at a bridge, somebody trying to send a signal about immigration policy or trying to shut down all the cross border crossings and as the officer from the opp just suggested, that is indeed what has happened here, is this a person, two people at least talking with vivek ramaswamy who were acting alone, is this part of a larger plot, how long have the people been in the country, are they american, are they foreign-born, are they radicalized, just trying to make a statement here, so many possibilities and so many unknowns. >> definitely there still is. and that might not have been the intended target either.

they could have gotten spooked. >> john: i don't know if they were travelling toward canada. why would you blow up niagara falls, canada. i can't figure that one out. i would think it was perpetrated on the american side. >> what normally happens early hours, most of the terrorist organizations are gen z, they are young. hamas puts out online on tiktok, they are very sophisticated on social media. so if it was backed by one of those groups, you will see them claim credit early. it could be the people were just inspired, easy to figure out how to do it online, so they do have been inspired by it. but it does concern me when you see the attacks that were utilized in the theaters in iraq and afghanistan new utilized in the homeland. what does that tell us? we just had vivek ramaswamy, and others have been arguing we were waiting for a terror attack to happen in this country because of our open and porous borders.

we also had dod generals testified back in march of this year that isis has a foothold, and in march, the capability to target the homeland. dod, fbi and intelligence offeringses have been warning in public testimony to congress that more groups were gaining the ability to attack the homeland. i was just at the border a few weeks ago with chad wolf and senator joni ernst, i saw the end of the trump border wall in yuma where they stopped construction on january 20th and it's scary to see it firsthand, especially when you see wide open areas that anybody can get to in this border and as vivek talked about, we have problems of encounters of people who are on the terror watch list through the northern border as well. >> gillian: talk about the threat at the northern border. we have coverage of the southern border where the bulk of the

threat to the united states emanates from, whether it's human trafficking, drug trafficking, illegal immigration, we don't hear a lot from the northern border. what folks are trying to get to the united states from the northern border? >> it's interesting because what happens at the southern border, we have the got-aways, almost 2 million that we know of got-aways and don't know who was in that population. at the northern border you tend to have less of a problem of people sneaking in between the checkpoints but we do have -- it grows every year the number of people on a terror watch list or some sort of watch list trying to come in through that border. it's also again as vivek pointed out, you know, very easy to get fentanyl across as well. most of the fentanyl is coming in through the ports of entry, like a whole other can of worms we can open in terms of the inspections that probably need to be happening at our ports of entry and the ships coming in. but you know, at the end of the day, when i saw v-bid, i thought

this is not good, it means if you are not aligned with a terror organization, you are sympathetic of one. >> john: the canadian government say they are taking the situation at the bridge seriously. and did the vehicle come from canada and into the united states and turn around, we don't know that yet. alexis mcadams has more from a source on the ground. >> john, what we know so far, can you still hear me? >> john: we have you, alexis. >> ok. making sure, so what we are checking in on right now, getting from sources who are on the ground that they are looking for a second car possibly involved, so that plays into this ongoing search in the preliminary stages, also trying to shut down all the bridges and evacuate the government buildings in and around buffalo and near the canadian border. as they look for what they say

is a second car possibly involved at this time. so, going back through what we know also, john, as you mentioned, we don't know where this vehicle is coming from or came from before this explosion. what we did know, it was full of explosives, according to those high level sources. we know two men in that vehicle are dead. that includes the driver and the passenger of that car. and then pull up photos, you can take a look at exactly what the aftermath looks at that explosive site near the cbp headquarters and area near the rainbow bridge. pretty much nothing left of that vehicle. when we tried to get some information on the make and model, what the license plate was, no clue to get that information because it was destroyed in the explosion. i asked if the two people in the car were known to police, i'm told it's going to take a while to figure out who the two people were because they were inside the car when it exploded. so they are trying to piece everything together and say it's going to take days possibly to

identify these people. sources telling us with this happening on the holiday here, this is a big concern for safety and security across the country, not just in buffalo. but you know, across the area, we know there's going to be big crowds of people coming here to new york city for the macy's thanksgiving day parade and told by sources on the ground will remain on high alert that it's a concern there is going to be protests happening and also large crowds gathering. this is interrupting all the travel at this time but a planned terrorist attack, according to high level police sources who were on the ground and familiar with the information. we know governor kathy hochul from new york is going to be there in buffalo to try to piece this information together to let people in the area know because a lot of people already from hearing what the fbi director just said the other day, they already have a heightened awareness and are nervous that something could happen at any place, or any time, we are nearing the holiday weekend with the bridges closed there.

and we know a border patrol officer was injured after this explosion. not serious injuries, but as for what types of explosives were in the car and how much planning went into this, it's still to be seen here. >> gillian: two witnesses on scene, say they heard a very loud noise that sounded like an explosion, they then saw a very large cloud of smoke near the inspection station where this went down. we have seen some video online of massive fires breaking out on the scene there. are you hearing anything about efforts to contain the fallout from the explosion itself? >> gillian, after the massive explosion people heard from pretty far away, they got as many emergency crews as they could on scene. the massive flames, and those are still pictures, the video as that continued to spread there, and talking about the gasoline inside the car that also fueled

this fire. so authorities from local, state and federal units, and fire officials, and now we have to figure out what was in the car asking one of the investigators if it would be a hazmat situation at this time, what was in that car, they are not sure. so that's why they call in even more authorities and investigators to see what's next. >> john: it's a pretty dramatic picture we see there. alexis, thank you. stand by. hearing from lucas tomlinson and with the president on nantucket, the law enforcement is on the scene and investigating. on board someone whose job it was to detect all of these threats during the bush administration, fran townsend is with us. what do you make of what we are seeing so far? >> you know, regretbly we shouldn't be surprised by this. we heard the fbi director and

other law enforcement officials warned us, especially since post october 7th, after the hamas attack, that we were more likely to see terrorism threat rise here in the united states because of our support of israel. we don't know yet whether or not this is attributed, can be attributed to hamas or another terrorist group about your i will tell you this sort of vehicle bomb is a classic technique of jihadist, and so i don't think law enforcement yet understands who it was or what the intended target was, but the detonation of a vehicle explosive this size, there could have been many more casualties. but very much a hallmark of jihadist. >> gillian: fran, this is gillian. the national security council tells us the white house is

closely monitoring the situation, law enforcement is on the scene and investigating. what kind of a role behind the scenes does the white house team have to play here when there's suspicion this is, in fact, a thwarted or failed terrorist attack? >> you would rely on the response of the state and locals but the fbi came in, a federal border crossing, the injury to a federal officer so the fbi would assert jurisdictions. just if you knew nothing more than that, and because of their experience, especially the fbi has explosive capability, a whole database that shows explosive devices and what they looked like, what they were made with, that might help them determine what terrorist group this could be associated with, and give them leads. and so the fbi will work closely with the locals, but they will rely on their expertise and the

information that they have gathered over the years of combatting terrorism, along with the atf, explosive capability. >> gillian: are you surprised to learn this attack emanated from the u.s. northern border? >> i am. i think i've been on fox and said i very much worry about the southern border, but i think there's been enough people talking about the concerns at the southern border they may have thought they had a better opportunity to enter from the north. we work so closely with canadian authorities and they have really law enforcement intelligence capability, and there's less traffic there so we just tend to worry about it less. it's been many years since we saw somebody attempt to bring a vehicle explosive device and that was on the west coast, so i think we don't think of it as

large a threat as the southern border. >> john: still some confusion which direction the vehicle was headed in, some eyewitnesses say it was headed toward canada, but taking a look at the landscape there, looks kind of like the car was trying to enter the united states because when you go to canada, an ez pass lane, a toll, and coming back through customs and border protection. and conflicting reports whether the other bridges are closed. ontario provincial police said the peace bridge, the end of the queen elizabeth way and crosses over to buffalo was closed and the queenston-lewiston bridge was closed, but now according to chad pergram, he heard they were

given guidance to scrutinize every car but not close. we'll try to nail that down. fran, we have over the last 30 years seen everything from home grown terrorism to imported jihad to lone wolves, to organized plots. where does this seem to fit in on that spectrum to you? >> i don't think we have enough information to really say with confidence, it could be a lone wolf, it could be an individual -- putting together these kinds of explosive devices is not that complicated. there is a lot of information on the internet for somebody who has a high school science background, it could be a lone wolf. the size of the explosive device and we can only tell that from the explosion itself sort of suggests to me that it's something more than that, but i do think we have to wait for law enforcement to release additional facts before we can

make a judgment. >> gillian: take a listen, fran, to recent testimony by the fbi director christopher wray, what he had to say about the terrorist attack against -- the terrorist threat against the u.s. homeland. >> here in the united states our most important concern is violent extremists, individuals or small groups, will draw inspiration from the events in the middle east to carry out attacks against americans going about their daily lives. >> gillian: well, this is not exactly as you point out the type of attack, you know, certainly ordinary americans might not envision on the holiday weekend. >> no, but we know jihadist groups have a preference for attacking transportation nodes, right, aviation on 9/11, car bombs before, we saw them attack trains in london previously, and

so transportation modes are just one of the areas that they are comfortable with. and so again, we need more information, we need to gather more data, but you know, i do think this sort of has the feeling of being more organized than simply a lone wolf. >> john: so we have a little bit more -- i don't know if it's really, you could call it clarity, it does not spell it out directly, but pete buttigieg, the transportation secretary says i've been briefed by our staff in new york state and headquarters on the explosion and related bridge closures on the u.s.-canada border and in touch with my canadian counterpart. travelers in the area should follow instructions and updates from law enforcement and state officials on travel impacts. still unclear whether or not anything more than the rainbow bridge is closed. it's also kind of strange that, fran, we are looking at live pictures here of what looks like

the aftermath, you see some debris in the road, what looks like a fire hose across the road, but no activity other than this. i don't know if everybody has been evacuated from that area until explosives and hazmat teams come in or not. but we have seen in the past -- if you are targeting something with a vehicle-born improvised explosive device, it's a landmark type of target. to do it at a border crossing seems a little unusual and wonder, was the vehicle destined for somewhere else, they felt they were trapped, they decided to go for what they could, they pulled the trigger on it, were they coming in from canada, were they in the united states, does it seem to you like a customs kiosk at an international bridge would be a logical target?

>> no, and so again, this is why i say we'll get more information as we get, you know, as law enforcement is further into the investigation. it may very well be that the intended target was inside the united states -- there are parades all over, and so you never know where that target could have been. >> john: yeah, as we saw some years ago and i think that you were in the job back then, saw the vehicle try to cross in washington state with lax as its target. hey, fran, great to talk to you. thank you for jumping on the phone with us. appreciate it. >> gillian: thank you. let's go back to morgan ortagus. so, confirmation now the man injured on the scene is a customs border patrol officer. do you think that that changes

anything about the nature of the investigation given this a u.s. official has been successfully targeted by terrorists? >> we pray for him and his hopeful recovery. what it reminds all of us, as we plan for thanksgiving, a first responders around the country, people in the fbi are spending their time tomorrow, cops and others are spending their time, making sure we are safe. we know that law enforcement and first responders around the country now are obviously going to be on even more heightened alert than they already were. we saw yesterday there was an increase, reportedly increased attack threshold for new york state, so this may have been part of the chatter that they were seeing. you know, i just looked up the last fiscal year numbers for the number of individuals in the fbi database that are known or suspected terrorists that came across the northern border. that number grew to 484, and just the last fiscal year.

there also is i think people who are more hawkish on immigration have long argued that canada actually has a problem with their internal vetting, their own internal immigration issues that could be a security threat for both countries. that may be what happens today. we were talking about the social media aspect of this and what terror groups are able to do, remember during the second term of the obama administration when isis had a physical caliphate in iraq and syria and isis was a very sophisticated at that point at recruiting young people from around the world to come to the physical caliphate to fight with them. they put out slick videos. i remember at the time all of these young british women coming to be isis brides. now we are seeing, and i've been warning about this for weeks since the october 7th terror attack, we are seeing on tiktok specifically, but also other social media sites, again that sophisticated propaganda because hamas felt like it had a win. so people start to get encouraged and feel like similar

as they did in the mid 2000s with isis that perhaps the terror group is something they can be invested in, the winning side. >> gillian: are you concerned, with what we have so far, they have shut down at the very least the international border crossing with the united states, and the eve of some talking about the busiest travel day of the year, they are heralding this a success. >> law enforcement and first responders are on high alert, i'm aging myself, the nigerian bomber on christmas day, even in nashville, 5, 7 years ago, an american who did this and, but remember, nashville was, and they just actually rebuilt the part of nashville that was blown up on christmas day down by the riverfront there. so we know that people do try.

what's the point of terrorism? the point of terrorism is to have a spectacular result that strikes hearts and fear of people. so if you can do it on a national holiday, scare people from going to the macy's thanksgiving day parade or scare people on christmas day, it adds to the dramatic effect that terrorist organizations like to have. >> john: merrick garland received a full briefing, director wray, because the fbi has taken the lead, knows all about this. so many questions here. first of all, was this somebody who came in from outside the country, don't know. could it have been a home grown terrorist. >> or come from canada as well. >> john: could it have come from canada. the direction of travel of the vehicle is something that is uncertain at this point. that appears to be the side of the bridge where you come across the bridge to the american side and that's where you are checked

in to come not united states. the other side of that bridge, there's basically ez pass lines you go on the way to canada and the other side of the bridge are checked in by the canadian authorities. so, see, this is on the left side of the bridge, you can see the -- i guess those are solar panels there the lower right-hand side, that's the american side, niagara falls, new york. niagara falls, canada on the other side. if the car was at that particular point, and i wish he had a telestrator, i could show it to you, it would appear through the kiosks there to check into the united states. because on the other side of those solar panels, that's just an ez pass lane, you good through and across to the canadian side. it may be the vehicle was coming in from canada and maybe, like we saw in washington, this was a

person who had designs on something more than blowing up a kiosk in a bridge. i mean, thank god the customs and border protection officer there is not seriously injured. though he's been taken to the hospital. but again, is this foreign-born terrorism, domestic terrorism, how old are the people, we don't know anything. >> gillian: interestingly to your point, john, new reaction from the canada border services agency, they say the health and safety of the public and officers is of the utmost importance to canada border services. they say they are very aware of the evolving situation. they are talking with the u.s. but say the fbi is now leading on the ground in this ongoing investigation. we don't know it necessarily means the u.s. was the target or americans were the target of the attack, it would certainly point to to that eventuality.

>> john: definitely on the american side, we can say that for sure that, is the american side when you take a look at what the landscape looks like, those are the areas where you pull up, you have driven across the rainbow bridge, pull up, officer says let me see your passport, where you going, how long are you staying, when are you coming back, so that would definitely appear to be the american side. when you take a look, morgan, what happened in the aftermath of 9/11, everybody looked back and said oh, you know what, the warning lights were blinking red. well, christopher wray said that to two committees in congress, and obviously the fbi was correct here and things have been on a heightened state of alert. there was a heightened state of alert at the march for israel, that was designated a level 1

security event, just like the super bowl. there's a heightened alert in new york city for tomorrow's macy's day parade. you never think about, oh, you know, the rainbow bridge, which i first came across as a kid on a school trip, when i was ten years old, because i remember, my dollar was from canada was worth 1.07 in the united states, you never expect it's going to happen there. >> you have to be prepared for everything. everybody who worked in counter terrorism post 9/11, that was the discussion we had throughout the bush administration and into the early obama administration, how do we prevent a terrorist attack from coming across either border, from our southern or northern border and this is certainly not a time to play politics, but when you look at the policy of the situation, people had been warning, myself included, for a long time, it is untenable to let millions into this country when we don't know who they are. similarly as i said, a lot of people who are hawkish on

immigration policy who have not been comfortable with canada's vetting system as well. that's something, you have to look at both in this country. i don't know how much more this white house can take, to be honest. feels like every few months a war and a new theater or now attack on the homeland. we talk a lot about israel, i came on the show initially to talk about israel. at least 31 americans killed there, still at least nine americans that we know of that are held hostage in israel. and as i've been saying since october 7th, whenever iran and hamas and other organizations chant death to israel, they chant death to america in the next breath. there were americans killed, it requires a response and by the way, there's ongoing attacks against american bases right now, right, since october 7th and even before. but there are record number of attacks against u.s. bases, by the grace of god an american soldier has not been killed yet. >> john: apparently prime

minister justin trudeau was speaking on this, he basically said a lot of questions, we'll continue to engage and provide updates, four border crossings right now closed. additional measures being contemplated, taking this extraordinarily seriously. he's gone off to a meeting to find out more. we'll get that sound turned four. >> gillian: in the meantime, morgan, thanks for being with us. let's bring in paul mauro, retired nypd inspector. sir, do you read anything into the fact that it is u.s. officials that have taken the lead in this ongoing investigation, the joint terrorism task force working hand in glove with new york state police. >> i mean, it's possible. right now we are very clearly in the fog of war, and as we always say in situations like this, of the first ten reports, nine of them are going to be wrong. one of the things i've heard and i caveat this is soft intel is that a big question here is was the car going from canada into

america or america into canada, goes to the question you are asking, and i've seen both reported. one of the other things i'm hearing is the car may have left from the american side, entered the rainbow bridge, and pulled a u-turn and then came back towards america, which would somewhat go to the question you are talking about, why the american side has the ticket. look, they looked at the plates i'm sure, they are reverse engineering who is involved here, very, very quickly. some reporting says they are looking for another car at an airport or someplace. the point is, they are operating off the data points they have and the american side would go to the joint terrorism task force which is a very robust unit that has state, local, federal reach, they'll work very closely with csis and rcmp, and

every data piece for the license plate and figure out who is responsible and if anybody else is involved. social media, probably already going after phones, a lot going on behind the scenes i can guarantee you that. >> john: paul, just to your point, whether or not the car pulled a u-turn, looking at a photo of the bridge, there's a small curb that you could probably easily get a car up and over if you wanted to turn around, nothing like a jersey wall that's going to prevent you from doing it, not according to this photo. but this photo is from 2015, maybe they have updated it since then. but can you even begin to formulate in your head who might be responsible for this? i mean, when you take a look at all the people who have designs against america, there is the remnants of isis, al-qaeda is still out there, palestinian

islamic jihad, hamas sympathizers, the fbi director gave congressional testimony we are a higher level of threat since the heyday of isis, any group that specifically comes to mind if this were to be a person who represents a terror group or sympathetic to a terror group? >> i would hesitate to pin this to any particular group. i mean, the obvious conclusion is that it goes to what's going on in gaza. this feels to me, and i look, you know, full disclosure, i did this work about 15 years. my gut tells me here, lone wolf, it sounds like there are two perps in the car and the other thing is this. as of now, it looks like everybody is carrying it as a terrorist attack, and that does seem to be where it's developing, but we have not even gotten that confirmed.

so, let's posit that it's a terrorist attack. if that's the case, i think what you are looking at is lone wolf, radicalized online, sympathetic to likely the gazan cause, the trigger here. does not have the sophistication, reach or impact with a nation state, for instance. while it might be inspired by somebody who is adherent of isis or iran, it does not have that weight. so filling the car with explosives and ramming it into a barrier, it's not a very high-tech event thankfully and speaks to something relatively homemade and i think one of the things that corroborates that, we don't have a high fatality rate, maybe only the two people in the car and maybe only an

injured cbp officer. thank god for that. i would say low level attack, inspired, not died in the wool of a foreign terrorist organization and something of a home spun event reacting to the news. >> gillian: a few moments ago, paul, we did learn that law enforcement was investigating the possibility, according to our sources, that there was a second vehicle involved. we don't know where that vehicle may have been. is that the priority right now behind the scenes for law enforcement who are actually dealing with this? are they sort of scrambling to figure out whether anybody else was involved or was as you say a sort of lone wolf attack? >> yeah, so absolutely. one of the things you want to make sure whether something like this happens, there isn't another device out there. i've been in this circumstance where you have the one guy, he's alive, and you just want to make sure, did you have somebody else with you? strangely they'll talk to you.

the thing about interviewing a terrorist is that it's not getting them to talk very often, it's getting this shut up. because terrorism is how they talk to the world and so very often you want to get to the heart of the matter, is there anything else out there, another device, another conspirator. they want to talk about u.s. foreign policy and transgressions. you have to keep the person honed. does not sound like that's what's going on here. i would argue here what they likely did was reverse engineered off the plate. they may have already i.d.ed who is in the car, and we have the one guy, and the second guy, his car is not accounted for. and could be a different data point, gone on social media and seen somebody say something like ok, if you are going to do that, i will go active as well. and so they are chasing that

down. there is some reason clearly if they are looking for a second car, i'm reminded of an event we had here in new york city, we had some indicia there might have been a collaborator and looking high and low for this person and it turned out that he did not have anything to do with it, and it was just -- we were led in the wrong direction. but you are going to have to close off any possibility here because god forbid this is more sophisticated, more than one event, the follow-on effects could be significant especially where we are, the day before thanksgiving, it's a travel day, i don't think any of that is an accident. >> john: yeah, and that is the big question. paul, pause for a second, we have sound from the canadian prime minister. >> very serious situation in

niagara falls, there was a vehicle explosion at the rainbow bridge crossing, i've been briefed, and everyone is fully engaged in providing necessary support. a lot of questions and following up to try to get as many answers as rapidly as possible. in close contact with u.s. officials and will continue to work closely with them. >> john: good indications here, paul, this vehicle did come across the border from canada, but when you look at the major cases of terrorism in this country that have happened, 9/11, boston northern bombing, anthrax attacks, the beltway snipers, atlanta, world trade center bombing, westside highway attack, only three of those were foreign influenced. the rest were all domestic. so it does not rule out the possibility that this is home grown, though it may be that this threat came across the

rainbow bridge from canada. quick final thought if you could. >> right on target. and that's one of the reasons why counter terrorism is a mandate police departments. 9/11 taught us, it launched from here and inspired and arranged overseas but launched from here. so, we learned early on post-9/11 that if you are going to do something like this, even if you are coming from a foreign country, you are going to need assets on the ground here to help you get where you've got to go, to teach you, they don't know the way around america and that's why it's easier sometimes to lone wolf to speak the language, know the terrain, and cops everywhere now are the border. >> john: paul, i'm sorry, paul -- >> you said you listed others. >> john: i'm sorry, i'm sorry -- >> we have to be on alert. >> john: we have to jump to a

report from our white house correspondent. >> gillian: lucas tomlinson travelling with president biden this weekend. what's the white house response to this developing story? >> gillian, we are told white house officials are closely monitoring the situation. president biden, if he hasn't already been briefed, will be briefed shortly by his top officials, including his attorney general, merrick garland and new york governor kathy hochul. when the president travels on any vacation, it's not really a vacation, he has a suite of communications gear, and carry out the business of the commander in chief wherever he is, travelling with his top aides, receiving a briefing shortly and learn more. the fbi we are told is still investigating the situation and will update the president as soon as they know more. >> john: lucas, so many unanswered questions in all of this and i'm sure the white

house, the national security council, the homeland security council, they are all looking into this to see what might be behind it all. lucas tomlinson on nantucket. thank you. so many questions unanswered, in the first hours of what happened on the rainbow bridge. >> gillian: and this story, john, eclipsing the story that was going to lead the show, which is the pending israel-hamas prisoner swap, now eclipsed by a potential terrorist attack the day before thanksgiving. a lot of developing news as that gets underway. >> john: and again, what the fbi director has been telling congress in recent days, it's a shock, should not come as much of a surprise. we will following this 24/7. i'm john roberts. good to be with you today. >> good afternoon. breaking right