and the system moves to detroit. it is a trio of winter weather events we have experienced. this is the second. we have another round coming in this weekend. more snow in chicago and unfortunately i'm the bearer of bad news. subzero temperatures. it will get nasty with lows minus 0 with windchills, anybody's guess. right now feels like it is nine degrees out. the winds are gusting up to 20 miles-per-hour. yes, it is february and it is cold. but nonetheless a snow deficit has been going on here in chicago so this is a big deal as six inches or more about to happen. >> bill: here comes the polar vortex. bundle up. nice to see snow in new york. it has been a season or two. all right, robert. stay warm. >> dana: fox news alert.

the war on waste front and center on capitol hill. a house subcommittee is about to hold its first hearing on doge and the mission to eliminate government waste, slash spending and shrink the size of the federal government. many promised. we'll see if it works. welcome to a new hour of "america's newsroom," i'm dana perino. >> bill: good morning, i'm bill hemmer. here we go. republicans looking for common sense reforms. they have gaveled in that subcommittee. let's check in here. democrats say get ready. we're coming for you in this one. see how it goes. >> today we begin the first hearing on the oversight subcommittee on doge. this committee will be laser focused on bringing full transparency to waste, fraud and abuse within the federal government and presenting the plans to fix the tremendous problems we expose. we as a country are $36 trillion in debt. that is such a stunning amount

of money it is absolutely staggering to even comprehend how we as the people, we as a country, found ourselves here. this is not a democrat problem, this is not a republican problem. this is an american problem. to make it clear for everyone, not only are we $36 trillion in debt, but the compounding interest on our debt is also growing out of control. even if we decided to defund the entire federal government, we cannot escape our debt and the compounding interest owed on our debt which grows bigger and bigger every year. in 2025, interest payments are projected to be $952 billion. which is more than our entire military budget. in 2026, it will be $1 trillion

and by 2035, $1.8 trillion. over the next decade total interest payments are projected to be $13.8 trillion. these interest payments don't serve a single american. they don't build a bridge, a road, provide disaster relief, or fund a single part of the huge federal government. these interest payments pay our masters who own our debt and the american people are in debt slavery to everyone who owns our debt. our crippling national debt massively growing interest on our debt will destroy us. not destroy one political party or the other, it will destroy all of us together. it drives inflation, making life unaffordable for americans struggling to financially survive. it is crippling small businesses struggling to be successful. our massively growing debt in interest are the chains and

shackles harnessed to every american and their children and every generation to come. but first let us be brutally honest about how this massive debt came to be in the first place. it came from congress. and from elected presidential administrations. and i believe enslaving our nation in debt is one of the biggest betrayals against the american people by its own elected government. this american -- the american people's anger over this betrayal is what gave birth to the concept of doge, the department of government efficiency. in fact, doge became a major part of president trump's campaign and led to his overwhelming victory in november. every day americans go to work, they run businesses, they have to earn their paycheck. no one guarantees it. if they don't do a good job, they get fired. they also have to pay their

bills, credit card debt, balance their checkbooks and scrap and save every penny they can in order to plan for that rainy day and hopefully retirement one day. private businesses only survive on hard earned income by serving their customers so well that their customers pay them for the services and products they consume. if that business fails, its employees lose their jobs and paychecks and owners move their business and everything they risked along with it. many go bankrupt in this process and lose everything. no one bails them out. they only survive by excellent customer service and smart financial management. this is the real world that most americans live, work and survive in every day. this is the pursuit of happiness and this is how you pursue the american dream. however, the federal government,

government employees and unelected bureaucrats do not live by the same rules as the great american people in private businesses. the federal government's income is the american people's hard earned tax dollars. their literal blood, sweat and tears. and taxes are collected by law at gun point. don't pay your taxes, and you go to jail. the federal government does not have to provide excellent customer service to earn its income. it takes your money whether you like it or not. and federal employees receive their paychecks no matter what, whether veterans receive their benefits or not. whether your mail shows up or not. and whether your tax dollars are used to help americans in need or sent to foreign countries for foreign people for foreign causes. no matter how bad the federal government fails the american people, it still takes your

money. it still pays its own federal employees. and it never, ever goes out of business. there are no consequences for bad customer service, total failure, and for enslaving the american people against their will in the ever-growing and future all-consuming national debt. congress has a dismal approval rating that ranges between 12 and 20%. i don't blame the american people one bit for their sentiment and disgust. the american people will be watching this committee and how we tackle one of the biggest problems of our time. while we're a committee made up of the opposite far reaching corners of congress, we were each elected to serve and represent the american people and how their hard-earned tax dollars are spent. we as republicans and democrats can still hold tightly to our

beliefs but we are going to have to let go of funding them in order to save our sinking ship. this is not a time for political theater and partisan attacks. the american people are watching. the legislative branch can't sit on the sidelines. in this subcommittee we'll fight the war on waste. shoulder to shoulder with president trump, elon musk and the doge team. this week we turn our attention to improper payments by the federal government including medicaid and medicare. i'm looking forward to what we find out and how to solve this crisis. i now yield to the ranking member, for her opening statement. >> good morning and welcome to the very first subcommittee on government efficiency as was said, this committee is tasked under the oversight committee

with insuring that the government and the vital services that it provides from healthcare to national security actually work for the american people. this is certainly a topic that we have worked on for many, many years here in the oversight committee and which i personally have worked on as a former civil servant who worked at the office of management and budget. and in fact for anyone who has ever worked on these issues, you know that there is amp el ground to make the government work better for the american people and insure it operates in a more efficient manner. in fact, all of us here on the democratic side are ready to roll up our sleeves and to get to work and just last week i had the opportunity to sit down with the chairwoman and to discuss these very issues and opportunities to work across the aisle. like the chairwoman who shared some of her background with me, i grew up in a working family. i grew up working for small mom

and pop family businesses and understand the necessity of balancing the books, making sure we can deliver, and fiscal responsibility. and that's why today's hearing is focused on making sure that the federal government is doing what it is supposed to and digging into the more than $236 billion in improper payments that we see going out the door every single year. and we need to get to the bottom of that. we need to make sure that we're putting into place rigorous oversight and controls to prevent fraud and abuse and, of course, to go after bad actors. that is why myself and the oversight ranking member connolly and other democratic members of the committee sent a set of bipartisan ideas we would like to work on together that would root out waste, fraud and abuse and modernize and streamline how our agencies deliver vital programs for the american people. programs that are important for our seniors and families and

healthcare and education system and we need bipartisan solutions to get across the finish line and we've been trying over the last several years to get these ideas out of this committee but unfortunately the committee's priorities have been elsewhere under the current majority. i hope we can fix that this congress. but we can't just sit here today and pretend like everything is normal and that this is just another hearing on government efficiency. all you have to do is look across this room and see that it is not a normal hearing because while we're sitting here rick donald trump and elon musk are recklessly and illegally dismantling the federal government. shuttering federal agencies, firing federal workers, withholding funds vital to the safety and well-being of our communities and hacking our sensitive data systems. in fact, while we were here discussing government waste on the house floor yesterday, elon musk was standing behind the

resolute desk in the oval office with the president and the administration was making emergency court appeals to try to unlock his team's access to the treasury payment system which they claim they are using to study improper payments, which is the topic of this hearing. here is the the thing. the treasury payment system which includes social security information and bank accounts for millions of americans and data that is critical to national security and the operation of the u.s. government and payments that go out the door annually equal to almost a fifth of the u.s. economy is not where the payment decisions are made because that happens inside the agencies that are currently being dismantled and the people who actually investigate waste, fraud and abuse at these agencies are the inspector generals who donald trump fired his first week in office in a midnight massacre. so we have to ask ourselves,

what is really going on here? why did republicans block elon musk from appearing before this very committee last week? why is the administration so eager to allow elon musk and his hackers to have access to proprietary and private information in the treasury payment system? why are our colleagues across the aisle shielding them as they are breaking the law and why is the vice president trying to rewrite the u.s. constitution by tweets and undermine the judiciary? so obviously we're in the oversight committee and we have a lot of questions and so do the american people. especially while our colleagues across the aisle are trying to scoop up the savings from the dismantling of these agencies to pay for the largest permanent tax break in american history for billionaires and the folks that they are helping on their side of the aisle.

so let me close by saying this. directly to mr. elon musk. we are well aware that you are eager to engage with members of congress on social media. but we're not here to play. if you have serious desire to engage in democracy and transparency, we welcome you to the oversight committee. come and testify in front of the american people under oath. because we want to know what you are up to. so if you are interested in talking to us, then please join us here in the people's house in the house of representatives. with that i yield back. >> president trump signed an executive order on his first day in office called establishing an implementing the president's department of government efficiency, renamed an office in the white house that was actually established by president obama in 2014 called

the u.s. digital service. president trump can have elon musk into his oval office any time he likes. i now recognize the chairman of the oversight committee, chairman james comer. >> thank you, chairwoman greene for holding today's hearing to launch a war on waste. president trump won an electoral landslide with a clear mandate from the american people to eliminate washington waste and stop the theft of american tax dollars. he is delivering on his promise. president trump has empowered elon musk and doge to conduct an audit to curb waste and protect tax dollars. that's exactly what the mission of this committee is spoofsed to be. i'm glad my colleagues on the other side of the aisle have found a new-found interest in waste, fraud and abuse. with a staggering $37 trillion in national debt, we have no time to lose.

a key place to start is improper payments. since 2003 the government has lost $2.7 trillion because of improper payments. fraudster, organized criminals and hostile actors and government employees have siphoned money away. for years republicans and democrats have condemned this waste but now that doge is taking real action, democrats are choosing to defend the bureaucracy and status quo instead of standing up for the american people. i want to thank chairwoman greene for holding this very important hearing not only to expose the problems but to find solutions. we stand with president trump and doge in the fight to end waste, fraud and abuse in washington. with that i yield back to subcommittee chairwoman greene and congratulations again on holding this first hearing of the doge subcommittee. >> thank you, mr. chairman. the gentleman yields back.

i now recognize the ranking member on oversight mr. connolly. >> thank you, madam chair. thank you for having this first hearing on doge. you know, improper payments is not a new subject. i remember joining steve lynch and then todd plats, republican member from pennsylvania, in my freshman year talking about improper payments. at that time improper payments were in the range of $35 billion a year. they are now in the range of $280 billion a year and times ten we could cut almost $3 trillion from the debt if we addressed improper payments in a deliberative way. we can also secondly enforce the tax code. it's estimated that at least half a trillion dollars a year is left on the table uncollected but owed because of lack of

resources in the i.r.s. again, times ten is 5 trillion over a decade. finally we can modernize federal i.t. systems which i've championed for years. legacy systems alone could save hundreds of millions a year in operating and maintenance costs. so if we want to be serious about it, let's be serious about it. the way not to do it is to fire the people charged with the remit of waste, fraud and abuse, namely inspectors general. he has fired 19 including most recently the usaid inspector general who dared to warn that we could lose a half billion dollars of food aid because it's in the warehouses not being moved because of the funding freeze imposed in usaid. that's a cost we need to avoid. for doing his job that idea he

was fired. if we want to be serious we have to have objective, neutral inspectors general who are monitoring government waste, fraud and abuse and expenses and i think you would find democrats more than willing partners in that kind of enterprise if we will be serious. a wrecking crew, a wrecking ball is not going to do it and we won't support that approach to waste, fraud and abuse in the federal government. i yield back, thank you. >> the gentleman yields. the president of the united states has the prerogative to fire everyone inflating the american people of debt. rightly so. today's expert panel of witnesses who bring unique experience and expertise valuable to today's discussion. i would like to welcome mr. haywood, the chief executive officer for government at lexus nexus risk solutions is.

his commitment allows the company to develop market leading solutions enabling customers to stop fraud, waste and abuse. next we have the senior director of federal affairs of the government of accountability. he was previously a special agent in the f.b.i., a u.s. army veteran and now spends his time at fga advocating to improve welfare, workforce and other policy. next we have a certified welfare fraud investigator in the state of wyoming and director for the united council of welfare fraud. she advocates for investigating and preventing fraud of government benefits and has done so over the past 16 years. finally, we have the director of government affairs at the

project on government oversight. he leads advocacy efforts and policy reforms to a wide range of good governance. i thank each of our witnesses for being here today and i look forward to your testimony. pursuant to committee rule 9g the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hand. do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? let the record show that the witnesses answered in the affirmative. thank you, you may take a seat. we appreciate you being here today and look forward to your testimony. let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statement and it will appear in full in the hearing record. please limit your oral statement to five minutes. as a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on

and the members can hear you. when you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. after four minutes, the light will turn yellow. when the red light comes on your five minutes have expired and we would ask that you please wrap up. i now recognize the first witness for his opening statement. >> distinguished members of the committee, for over a decade a silent war has been wageed against american taxpayers not with bombs or guns but with data and technology. outdated government systems permit criminals to access unlimited sums of money. during the pandemic, they stole $1 trillion. 70% of those dollars went overseas. shockingly, it is just not criminals exploiting the system. it is the flawed system itself acting as the accomplice. if left unchecked u.s. government will continue to lead the world in funding cyber

criminals. this is a data and technology problem and it demands a data driven response. criminal signed cats have turned benefit programs and exploiting those in needs who wait months for benefits that never come. they fund child trafficking, disburse drugs if our communities and terrorism. for years criminal networks have stolen personal information from the public and private sector. they exploit real identities to manipulate antiquated government systems siphoning off billions in taxpayers hard earned money. we continue to pay benefits to deceased and incarcerated individuals, direct money to bad actors flagged in the do not play list and overlook duplicate social security numbers. during the pandemic a simple cross check of ppp loan recipients against i.r.s. records would have exposed

massive fraud and prevented payments to trans national criminals who sold their sauce on the dark web. to stop this we must reclaim control of our systems. not just from the criminal signed cats but the flawed systems enabling them. smarter technology, data and identity verification are necessities to protect taxpayers and insure aid reaches those who truly need it. now the use of a.i. is fundamentally changing society. but in the hands of criminals it has become a weapon. law breakers are using it to supercharge their war on taxpayers. they have use a.i. to create fake identity documents that pass bio metric verifications, botts flood portals with fraudulent claims and deepfakes bypass the standards from 2017. honest and deserving people seeking access to government

benefits suffer through endless application forms that are nearly impossible to navigate. criminals from russia, china, romania gain access with ease. the private sector has fraud rates below 3%. meanwhile the public sector operates at a 20% fraud rate. the solution is clear. it is already used every day to protect consumers, you seamlessly interact with their back through an app that verifies your identity. no excuse for the government to lag. implement identity verification on the front end. criminals should never receive a dime. eliminate self-certification. no more honor system for billion dollar programs and continuous auditing. keep verifying. criminals never stop adapting. of the $250 billion stolen in pandemic unemployment fraud, less than 5 billion has been

recovered. the idea in government that you cannot have speed and security is fiction. i urge congress to consider making the following legislative changes. number one, update the 1974 privacy act to allow for data sharing and matching. number two, fund a budget for fraud prevention in each appropriation bill. the usda spends 1/20 of 1% on fraud prevention. mandate that individuals caught stealing from entitlement programs pay hefty fines and removed from the program permanently. finally, eliminate broad based categorical eligibility. this committee has a choice. continue losing this war against criminal cartels in nation states or fight back and save $1 trillion annually. fraud prevention is not benefit prevention, it is the key to insuring that every dollar reaches those who truly need it. hard working americans rely on these programs not just to survive, but to build better

lives for their families. criminals exploit the system, they just don't steal money, they steal opportunities. stopping fraud isn't about denying benefits, it is about protecting them. this crime has two victims. the first are the taxpayers, and the second are those seeking benefits. the fraudsters, cartels and criminal signed cats are watching this hearing i'm sure of it. it is time to show them that america will not fund its own destruction. thank you and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you. i now recognize ms. royal for her opening statement. >> good morning, chairwoman greene, ranking member and committee members. my name is dawn royal. i am a certified welfare fraud investigator, two term past president and current director of the united council on welfare

fraud. united council on welfare fraud is a national professional organization dedicated to protecting the integrity in our nation's public assistance programs. the only national organization singularly focused on detection, prevention and prosecution of welfare fraud. for too long agency bureaucrats have pitted citizens access to welfare programs against the integrity of those programs. access versus integrity should never be an either/or di cot me. we agree access to public assistance is crucial. american citizens should tea be hungry or deprived of medical care because of their inability to pay. making sure vulnerable citizens have access to welfare programs should not mean we simply turn a blind eye to integrity. we do not pursue the prevention detection and prosecution if we -- if we don't pursue the prosecution of fraud taxpayers become the victims at welfare

programs become slush funds, absolve themselves from financial responsibility of medical bills and using medicaid to further taxpayer exploitation by taking advantage of cash assistance, energy assistance, childcare and other social welfare programs. one example of a welfare fraud is a case i investigated that was criminally prosecuted last year. the alm can't mother failed to disclose her children's father as well as his employment and income on multiple applications she submitted for medicaid, snap and low income energy assistance. the co-defendant father worked a steady job earning a six figure salary and provided vacations, luxury vehicles, snowmobiles, motor homes, lavish gifts including one from the wife to the husband, a $1200 bottle of bourbon. there was a candidate registration form filed by the defendant father when he ran for town council and later mayor of the town where he declared he

lived at the same address provided by his wife on her public assistance programs. this was a case of greed but it emphasizes how easy it was for these criminals to make false statements on applications in order to receive benefits from multiple programs that they were never eligible for. i could spend the rest of my day providing countless examples of how taxpayer funded programs are exploited. investigators continue to be ham strung by antiquated regulations, and the lack of access to technology. sadly, investigators have also found themselves at odds with the career bureaucrats who recite watered down facts about fraud in order to promote their political adepends. specifically we can look to the career bureaucrats who have claimed the fraud rate in snap is less than 1%. the disregard for the value of integrity is evidenced by the less than 1/20 of 1% of the snap

budget spent on the prosecution and detection of fraud. as part of medicaid, the bureaucrat directed states that they and i quote cannot recover or re coup the cost of services from a beneficiary even if they have been found after an administrative hearing or criminal proceeding to have committed medicare fraud or abuse, end quote. sadly, it is already apparent career bureaucrats aren't being totally transparent as they attempt to protect spending and broken programs. we fail to understand how mitigating fraud in medicaid, snap and other welfare programs stands up or strengthens the welfare programs. fact is the opposite is true. ignoring fraud and gas lighting fraud statistics he roads the very foundations of the programs that are essential to their future viability. there are things this committee can do to help the investigators fighting the war on fraud. number one, eliminate

self-attesttation for all programs. funding for technology that clues identity verification. number three, immediately implement the national accuracy clearinghouse, that will provide data to states to prevent duplicate participation in social welfare programs and allocate direct funding to the prevention detection and prosecution of fraud. in closing, we're at a crossroads. those of us who have firsthand knowledge of the degree in which public welfare programs are being attacked know that reform is absolutely necessary. reform to the recipient application process, the billing process in medicaid and now snap benefits are propersed and people are authorized. we thank you for the opportunity for us to participate in this hearing. we feel that the investigators on the front lines fighting the

daily battle against the war on fraud need to be at the table and participating in the development of action plans to make a difference in protecting the programs and defending the taxpayers. >> thank you, ms. royal. i now recognize our next witness for his opening statement. >> chairwoman greene, ranking member, members of the subcommittee. thank you for the opportunity to testify today. on the campaign trail president trump promised to take on the bloated bureaucracy in d.c., rebuild trust in the d.o.j. and f.b.i., crack down on waste, fraud and abuse, and restore common sense. on day one he started delivering on those promises with a wave of executive orders and the official launch of doge which he, of course, tasked elon musk to lead. already doge efforts have brought to the public's attention countless examples of wasteful spending including

$59 million paid to luxury hotels in new york to house illegal immigrants. 1.5 million to advance d.e.i. in serbia's workplaces. $32,000 for a transgender comic book in peru. the list goes on. but rather than applauding the work of doge the left is trying to demonize mr. musk with the hope of shifting focus away from the disastrous waste, fraud and abuse that occurred on biden's watch. guess what? it is not working. because no matter what political party people hail from, the vast majority of americans agree that $10 million worth of food funneled to al qaeda was probably not the best use of taxpayer money. but there is another source, a key source of wasteful spending that doge and the subcommittee need to set their sights on. medicaid waste and fraud. medicaid has bloated into a massive welfare program for

millions of able-bodied adults lured to government dependency. mismanagement has grown. today more than one in $5 spent on medicaid is improper. medicaid alone fraud and mismanagement is on track to cost u.s. taxpayers, get this, more than $1 trillion over the next ten years. when it comes to the problem with improper payments the medicaid program is the biggest culprit. encompassing 1/3 of federal improper payments and the majority is due to eligibility errors. targeting eligibility errors in medicaid should be one of your top priorities. to address this challenge congress can three actions. they can strengthen the medicaid program. include repealing biden's disastrous medicaid streamlining rule which ties the hands of states trying to remove ineligible enrollees. you can and should do this

through reconciliation and it will produce $164 billion in savings if you do. you can also strengthen verification requirements to insure only eligible individuals receive benefits and insure a nationwide program is implemented without delay. second thing help doge effort by insuring entrenched partisan bureaucracies don't start in the way of reform. they've already found hundreds of millions of dollars in insane project but only scratched the surface. if this much fraud has been exposed in a few weeks, imagine what else is buried under layers of red tape and government excuses. guess what? all of these insane projects have one thing in common. they were all approved and funded by unelected bureaucrats. these and other entrench edinburgh owe congratulations are pledging to fight against president trump's effort to improving accountability. personnel is policy.

without competent staff to faithfully execute the president's agenda, the doge project will fail. this is where congress can help. they can support the president in carrying out his doge effort by making executive branch employees at will codifying the authority to fire unproductive or insubordinate agency employees as needed. at the same time. congress can grant the president authority to permanently eliminate vacant positions and consolidate non-essential positions across agencies and departments to help promote efficiency and put the right people in the right seat. third thing congress can make president trump's doge cost cutting reforms permanent. by passing the reins act. there is only one big problem with the doge effort. most of its work can be undone by a future president with the stroke of a pen. to make president trump's doge reforms permanent congress must act and the best way to do this is to pass the reins act.

this would return article one budgetary power of the purse to congress while promoting deregulation. it would also help lock in the doge reforms and cement president trump's legacy as the most deregulatory and cost cutting president in u.s. history. the american people are watching. it is time for congress to act. thank you and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you, i now recognize the next witness for his opening statement. >> thank you, chairwoman greene, ranking member and members of the subcommittee. i'm the director of government affairs at the project on government oversight. appreciate the opportunity to be with you here today to talk about the critical issue of bringing more accountability and transparency to federal spending including rooting out waste, fraud and abuse. since our founding in 1981 we've been focused on promoting more accountability and rooting out

wasteful spending and promoting efficiency especially at the department of defense. we have a long and well established track record on these issues and we take a -- when it comes to promoting a better and more effective government which necessarily includes a federal government that is a good and responsible steward of taxpayer dollars. let's take a moment to pause to talk about terms that we'll hear a lot today and the difference between them. waste is different from fraud. fraud is different from abuse. abuse is different from both. when we talk about improper payments they are is subset of the other three categories. it doesn't tell us the whole picture, either. sometimes improper payments are a function of bad record keeping. a function of outdated information technology systems, sometimes they come about through human error and sometimes they come about through negligence. there are a variety of reasons why improper payments happen. it just simply is not the case that improper payments are only a function of bad people doing

bad things with bad intent. that doesn't mean we shouldn't focus on trying to mitigate improper payments and certainly doesn't mean the american people should not be concerned with how their tax dollars are used. the good news is that there are some time tested solutions and tools to help mitigate these problems. for example, when we think about the independence of inspectors general we are talking about a resource that is extraordinarily valuable to the american people. in fiscal year 2023 alone inspector generals identify over 93 billion of potential savings to taxpayers. whistleblowers are an incredible resource to the american taxpayer. through the i.r.s. whistleblower program alone, billions of dollars have been recouped from tax cheats since the inception of that program in 2007. whistleblowers have played an instrumental role in helping the department of justice pursue false claims act cases resulting in billions of dollars in

reclaimed settlement costs. it seems to me if an administration were serious wanting to root out waste, fraud and abuse they would support and resource whistleblowers and inspectors generals they wouldn't fire them en masse in an unlawful midnight purge. there are other reforms we can think about, too. reforms that are more technical. but just as important. key statutes such as the federal funding accountability and data act and critical platforms like usa spending.cover were innovations when they came about but they need overhaul and reform. currently the status quo we have a hard time tracking federal dollars from end-to-end. this is due in large part to a broken chain of data collection, reporting information, and the ability to monitor and track in realtime what is happening with

federal dollars. this informational black hole is where a lot of waste, fraud and abuse live and where improper payments often happen. more importantly, we also don't have a good clear and consistent way of understanding what is happening with tax dollars at the endpoint. what is the impact that we're having? what's the return on investment that we're having? we now have an annual budget of close to $7 trillion a year. we can't say with any degree of clarity and consistency what we're getting for all that money. we have some more good news, though, bipartisan efforts and have been for years to try to clean up this situation. we have had the privilege and pleasure on working on some of those initiatives. we were part of the federal taxpayers right to know act being passed into law a couple of years ago that created for the first time a program inventory of all the programs in the federal government and that would be available to the

public. we have worked with a member of this very committee, house oversight and accountability comploty to introduce a piece of legislation to bring more transparency. supportened and endorsed multiple pieces of legislation for improper payment issue. additional ideas that don't have congressional champions. clean up and modernize and standardize to make them more useful and relevant. another proposal to harmonize the amount of data and information we collect between contract spending and non-contract spending. we stand ready, willing and able to work with anybody who wants to work with us on these common sense solutions. lastly i want to put in a quick word for congress. specifically i want -- >> the gentleman's time is expired. >> apologies. i can't see the flashing light. >> we appreciate our testimony.

i recognize myself for five minutes of questions. i would like to thank our witnesses today for your testimonies and the suggestions you have brought. like to thank chairman comer for this opportunity to chair the historic oversight subcommittee on doge. americans are shocked to learn that $2.7 trillion of their hard earned tax dollars have been stolen or wasted in improper payments since 2003. you see, in the private sector, companies can't continue, they can't continue to run if they keep employees that allow waste and abuse with their resources. that has continued for decades here in the federal government. do private sector companies have a lower rate of improper payments than the federal government? >> yes. the fraud rate that the

criminals are taking advantage of in the public sector is around 20%. in the private sector it is around 3% and really because the tools that are used in the private sector aren't used in the public sector. front end identity verification. self-certification and then finally making sure that individuals are who they say they are. if we start using these tools, you will see the fraud rate go down dramatically because for the most part this fraud isn't taking place by real individuals. it is individuals whose identities have been stolen on the dark web, use that information pretending to be somebody else and because of the antiquated systems, processes and technologies in place in government programs they are able to steal at scale. >> we would say private companies that pretty much have to exist on a 20% profit rate, they are not allowed, they can't continue to be successful if

they were to allow their customer's data to be stolen and used by criminal. the federal government who can continue in operation and printing checks never fixes its problems because it can't be forced to go out of business. would you agree with that, yes or no? >> yes, one of the things i noticed during covid was criminal learned that government was the mark because it never runs out of money. they focus on it at scale and then the likelihood of getting caught is virtually zero. >> it is outrageous for americans to know their identity can be stolen and used for child trafficking, drug trafficking and terrorism like you cited in your opening statement. ms. royal your testimony states many programs operate under an honor system in which applicants need not verify their identity, income, residency or other key eligibility factors. you call this a trust everyone

instead of a trust by verify approach. does this mean the federal government in some states are giving out billions of dollars to individuals without verifying who they are or whether they meet program eligibility requirements? >> yes, ma'am, that's correct. >> that's outrageous. do states have enough incentive to prevent fraud and to recover improper payments? >> no. in fact, states are hesitant to spend their state dollars to protect federal dollars. >> would greater investment in program integrity efforts yield a positive return for taxpayers. >> it could easily be self-funding. >> your testimony states both the biden and obama administrations issued rules and guidance that made it harder for states to verify eligibility for medicaid. you say that repealing biden's medicaid streaming lining rule would save $164 billion over ten years because the rule restricts

eligibility verification that states can perform. can you explain why this rule is so costly? >> so the rule does a number of things. it prohibits states from verifying eligibility more than once a year. for non-disabled folks to look and say are you still eligible for the program it says you are forbidden from doing that. any more than once a year. people's lives change and they may become ineligible and designed to keep them on the program. another thing it prohibits in-person or phone interviews to verify their identity. people apply and the person on the other end says i want to make sure it's a real person not someone in another country. the rule prohibits that. there are a number of other provisions and opens a lengthy reconsideration period where illegal immigrants are able to obtain benefits. once you get these benefits, you can't interfere with it for a 90 day period or longer.

there are a number of horrible things. >> we can't verify if someone is illegal or legal. >> a state has to waste 90 days and what we're seeing it has led some states to wait as long as 13 years. on the front end. >> my time is expired. thank you very much. i recognize mr. lynch from massachusetts. >> thank you, very much, madam chair. first of all, let me congratulate you and also ms. stansbury on your new positions. we've already heard good ideas how to work together and i for one would be most open to working with pogo and trying to work on some of the legislative ideas that you have to actually get at some of this waste, fraud and abuse. since this is my first opportunity to speak in this new

subcommittee as the representative for the eighth congressional district in massachusetts i want to make clear that my primary purpose in seeking appointment to this subcommittee is for the singular and sacred purpose to defend our democracy. wife i believe is under attack in this country. and to uphold my oath to support and defend the constitution against those who might secretly or openly seek its destruction. make no mistake, this is a moment for representative democracy. a test of our resolve. in the coming days and weeks, we will all get to decide whether we stand with a couple of billionaires who, despite their own financial successes, still harbor such grievances in their hearts that after all that democracy has provided to them, they remain animated by the desire to dismantle this democratic government and to punch down at some of the weakest and most vulnerable in

our society. two men who clearly understand the easiest way to incite large numbers of people is to use social media to exploit the dynamic forces of hatred and fear. madam chair, if we go after waste, fraud and abuse let's start with abuse. abuse of power. as of yesterday, there are 55 lawsuits under consideration by the federal courts across our nation as a result of elon musk's and president trump's unlawful acts. many of those lawsuits have already been sustained by the federal district courts and orders rendered to undue the unlawful acts. this is just the beginning and congress has an important role to play. i for one look forward to that opportunity. this is a moment of great consequence for our country and for our democracy and i remain grateful to the good people of the eighth congressional

district of massachusetts who sent me here. happy to join you on some of your efforts. pogo has worked very closely with our i.g. community, is that right, the inspector generals? >> that's correct. >> i know your work is very much similar to what we ask our inspector generals to undertake. i want to ask you what do you think -- in the most recent report from the inspector generals and this is the council of the inspector generals, a nonpartisan group on integrity and efficiency in government, they identified more than $93 billion in potential savings. so the first thing that president trump did coming into office was to fire -- fire 17 agency inspectors general. what can you tell us from pogo's

standpoint, what does it do to our ability to identify and root out waste, fraud and abuse? >> thank you, i would say it completely undermines our ability to root out waste, fraud and abuse. inspector generals exist for one purpose and created in the aftermath of watergate. i think you all probably don't need me to give you a history lesson what happened in that era. a reason they were created. a lot of waste, fraud and abuse happening and not cops on the beat internal, independent. situated in agencies to be able to find these things and expose them and do something about them. that's what they exist to do. it is opposite to any stated mission to find cost savings and root out waste, fraud and abuse to fire inspectors general and undermine them. it makes no sense. those two things don't add up. >> thank you very much.

the firings that occurred on the -- when president trump came into office included the special inspector general for afghan recons reconstruction. i did over 20 trips to afghanistan working with him. he actually uncovered $4 billion in savings in rooting out american taxpayer waste being conducted in afghanistan. the i.g. at the department of defense, >> the gentleman's time is expired. >> thank you, i yield back. >> thank you. i now recognize the gentleman from texas, mr. cloud. >> thank you. for far too long d.c. politicians are measuring personal value and worth by how much of other people's money they give away. for far too long they self-righteously have opined the spending was given out of care and compassion. for too long more concerned with looking like they cared than

having enough care and concern to actually due the due diligence to insure tax dollars are being used wisely and effectively. for far too long those of us who worked to uncover waste, fraud and abuse have had to deal with what amounts to an unconstitutional fourth branch of permanent bureaucracy that has too often worked to ignore, delay and frustrate our efforts to bring transparency and oversight. over the last few weeks the doge effort has begun to uncover not only how massive the waste, fraud and abuse is but also the extent at which d.c. politicians and too many ob stae taint bureaucracies could create the largest money laundering scheme in history. while americans are working to make ends meet they are using taxpayer dollars to fund unnecessary, even evil things here at home and around the world. thankfully in doge we have a president bringing the leadership needed and focused

effort along with the talent, technology, tools, and transparency to this waste, fraud and abuse. to those who would stand opposed to this effort i would point out while it is understandable to finds waste, fraud and abuse that has grown over decades, certainly accelerated over the last few years, to continue to protect it is corruption. i want to thank the chair for beginning this war on waste on this side of pennsylvania avenue in bringing together this committee, this effort is so important as we work to relieve the american people of this burden of waste, fraud and abuse. you mentioned in your written statement and talked about it in your statement at the beginning that this waste, fraud and abuse is a national security threat. certainly one of the challenges facing it is our fiscal situation and we have got to

find ways to find savings to the american people in order to strengthen and bring confidence to the bond markets, to put our country on fiscal footing and reverse the curse we're placing on our children and grandchildren. you mentioned a couple of threats. you mentioned internal threats. you said these cases involve government employees, individuals entrusted with administering benefits who instead of using their positions to approve fraudulent claims override security controls or even sell sensitive claimant information for profit. this is not every federal employee for sure. but within the context of people who are trying to give their best effort we have an internal threat but you mentioned trans national fraud rings and nation states, north korea, china, russia, not our friends, necessarily that are being funded by taxpayer dollars. could you give us some examples of how this is happening?

>> yeah. when you think about what happened during the pandemic, $1 trillion was stolen. 70% of that money went overseas. and i can give you some examples. in a western state they had more people applying for unemployment insurance benefits than they had individuals over 18. the people that were stealing the money from romania were using it to facilitate other fraud schemes that include fentanyl, that include doing things to impact our democracy. on the insider threat, the first thing you have to say and my dad was a public servant is 99% of people that work in the public sector are honest, hard working individuals. but there are some and what you need is data and technology to root that out. there were examples during the pandemic, some examples even last week where people got into the medicaid system in a western

state and stole $50 million in less than four months. so you have to have these controls in place. these aren't individuals stealing. these are organized criminal groups both domestic and trans national. >> as you mentioned taxpayers are forced to fund the demise of our own country. i want to ask you, there is a lot of talk about reconciliation right now. you mentioned medicaid and what could be done to bring pretty substantial amount of savings. this is without affecting those who truly need medicaid and for what the purpose of the program was extended for. >> the gentleman's time is expired. does the witness want to answer the question? >> only to say that yes, there is a tremendous amount of savings that can be found from the streamlining world and work requirements in the program is another big area that can be done in reconciliation and could save a significant amount of

well. $241 billion in federal spending in over ten years. >> i now recognize the gentleman from california, mr. garcia. >> thank you. thank you for all our witnesses being here. i want to make something clear. i think we're all here to fight against the lies, corruption and attacks on social safety net. we should in no way be cooperating with house republicans who want to shut down the department of education and destroy medicare and medicaid. we should not stand by as the richest man on the planet gives himself and his companies huge tax cuts while the american people get absolutely nothing. now i find it ironic that our chairwoman, congresswoman greene is in charge of running this committee. in the last congress chairwoman greene literally showed a dick pick in her oversight congressional hearing so i thought i would bring one as well