with these thoughts. pass clear cleaver cronki >> the dow up for five straight days. over 7% on the week, the best weekly point gain all year. what washington is doing that could derail that. [captioning made possible by fox news channel] brenda: forcing americans to sign on to government run healthcare. big business is opting out. we will see an 8% tax hike. anyone else refusing a 2.5% penalty on income. this pulse us one big step closer to a healthier america but are we closer to the united socialist states of america. i'm brenda buttner and this is "bulls and bears." here they are, the "bulls and bears" that you know.

welcome to everybody. gary b we are using this term loosely but are we turning into the uffa? >> absolutely. i can understand and even there it is a stretch, but i can understand the government wanting to offer health insurance as an alternative even though herself not managed any health business so far. but i will give them that. but this cram-down force march into everyone must have health insurance and sign on to public or private is absolutely ridiculous. next it will be you must eat three servings of vegetables a day, 30 minutes of exercise a day, then they will probably close the borders and won't let anyone leave because they need the tax revenues. this is perfect for the obama administration. one more check mark on we know better than you and we will tell you what to toment

brenda: that might work with california closing down the borders. mike, you say that you don't agree with this, that mandating healthcare is not a problem? >> it is almost like gary has never heard of the american department of veterans affairs. it has been a socialized system for decades. >> look how great they have run the hospitals. >> they have 150 medical centers and thursdaying homes, employed 55,000 nurses, 14,000 doctors and gary b doesn't have any faith in government. taxpayers pay for that. and you know what? this might be a big shock to you but the truth is germany, france, italy, spain the u.k., canada, all have the same system that we use for the american department of veterans affairs. that is working. brenda: hold on a minute. i'm not so sure that it would surprise us. most of the countries he named

are socialist countries much >> that's right and they have had had compact with the people and sacrifice they have made is for legitimate growth, legitimate entrepreneurship and now you are turning what could be a privilege into an obligation. you are forcing employers to behave in a way to bend to the government and forcing individuals to sign on for healthcare whether they want it or not and that is influencing beha behavior beyond anything and makes government influence greater it society. brenda: pat, you don't really have a problem with this mandated healthcare, do you? >> well, one of the big issues we have in this country is we pay too much and get too little. we pay more for healthcare as a percentage of g.d.p. and our out co comes stink. if you look at the data the larger the proportion of healthcare spending that is public relative to private the less the country spends on healthcare as a percentage of

g.d.p. those are the facts. government involvement in healthcare, you may not like it, but is the only way to get costs down because you have a single buyer who crushes costs, get admin costs down tremendously and again we may not like it but if we are going to get off the unsustainable path of healthcare spending it may be the only way. brenda: toby, take that one on. >> mike's point is fabulous for the veterans administration because that is a closed situation. those are doctors that are on salary, nurses, et cetera. but what he is really telling us is that is what the obama agenda is, because this is just the first step. if the veterans administration is your best example of how government healthcare should be, what you are saying is you want a single payer system that all physicians are paid a salary and that plan is not only socialist, it is probably inconceivable how bad that would be. >> let's do away with the v.a.

here is the problem. you know as well as i. what you don't want to talk about is price gouging by the drug companies where they take a $2 pill and charge $50. what we have to do under this plan is get control over greed from the pharmaceutical industry -- >> ah! >> that you believe is best for the economy or the h.m.o.'s. brenda: hold on. the government is pretty good at greed, too, isn't it? >> here is the problem. nobody wants to talk about the fact that we are letting an industry make $90 billion a year, the pharmaceutical industry, by taking a $2 pill and charging $50. the v.a. tells them you can't charge $50 for the bill. you have to control prices and that is what we need to accomplish out of healthcare

reform. unfortunately the democrats are not going to do that. >> other forms of government that is price competition. the government is pushing the private sector to distort prices in the private sector by machine dating price on the top end and on the bottom rationing care to citizens. so of course you will get a socialist style system where they fix prices and ration the care. you get the government out of the equation you get more competition. the price is fair to everybody and by the way, congress would have a way to pay the same price that i do. brenda: hold on. i have to let gary b in. >> i like mike's example, the $2 pill. as if it cost merck or pfizer $2 to develop the bill. it probably cost them billions to develop it. that is why medicine is exported out of the country and that is why canada can sell the prescriptions. they are going on the backs of

the r&d we did. you don't do that. >> you can go across the border and buy the pill. brenda: give gary a chance. >> i'm afraid he struck out. brenda: this makes americans upset to be told what to do with their insurance. >> he can go to canada and buy hypertension pills for $2. >> where do you think they got the r&d? on the backs of our pharmaceutical companies. >> you knew the sad truth, brenda. for decades wealthy inheritance babies tried to scare americans by using the s word for socialism. every time there's an attempt to have government involved and it is impossible to believe that government could have done a more pathetic job than wall street in the corrupt banking industry than they have done to themselves. brenda: everybody, wants in,

hold on. quiet. i know you are mad about this and we have the hypertension pills ready. toby. >> mike, take a deep breath and go back to the original point. >> i'm fined. >> you devolved into pharmaceutical business and god knows what. the idea we are going to take the american system and force people into an already broken system makes no sense from a variety of issues when the actual core problem is the business model is wrong in healthcare which they get paid to perform stuff, number one. number two, people get the healthcare for free because it is paid without paying taxes and they never see a bill. if you solve that problem then all of your ideas maybe would work. brenda: this is going to be a good show because we have good topics. coming up, unemployment rates hitting double digits in more than a dozen states. the white house working to defend its stimulus bill.

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>> good morning, everyone from america's news headquarters, there is some very sad news to report this morning. legendary anchorman walter

cronkite died last night after a long illness. he anchored the cbs news during the 1960's and 1970's covering stories ranging from the assassination of john kennedy to the first moon landing and vietnam war. he was 92. there are new developments in the terror attacks on two american hotels in jakarta. indonesian official suspect one of the most wanted men for the attacks. police are investigating the bombings saying the fugitive wanting for the bali bombings in 2002 and 2005 may be behind the new attacks. at least eight died. americans among them. we will have more news ahead. back to "bulls and bears" now. brenda: 15 states dealing with double-digit unemployment as the white house defends the stimulus package saying job losses do not mean it is failing. is it failing, toby? >> obviously it is failing.

when the entire assumption in the plan have been proven to be wrong, the plan doesn't work. the great shock would be if they actually admitted it which politicians wouldn't. but they say wait a minute, if we are going to do stimulus, stuff that creates economic activity more than the dollar put in, let's forward that up front or forget it all. brenda: we will talk about jobs here, specifically clearly jobs have not been created, mike, have they? >> every economist who had a comment about the stimulus plan, whether for or against, all said that the economy that obama inherited was going to see job loss a long time. at this point only 15% of the stimulus is on the street. some states are saying they are seeing great returns. in florida charlie crist republican governor says he is seeing direct improvement from the stimulus, improvement employment and consumer spending. that is from a republican governor, not one republican voted for stimulus in the house

if you remember. five weeks ago in ohio they started hiring back police officers they had fired. alabama just kept 4,000 teachers employed directly because of the stimulus. even mark sanford, who had his latin romance in full swing, that was -- that was going on what was happening is that state was actually rebuilding their sewage system with stimulus plan money. so to say it is not work something ridiculous. brenda: is it ridiculous? >> i think it is absoluteliry dick thruhusband because -- it absolutely ridiculous. the first was when unemployment is 8.4%. now we are at 10% this. is a spending plan. to get real jobs that last the private sector has to be incentivized to employ capital and form business and hire workers. that is not happening. and to give the states the money

to keep their workers on the payroll is great for the public sector but bad for the private sector. it goes back to the first block because we are becoming more socialist. the government will be a bigger percentage of the economy. brenda: government is hiring and we know that. gary b, the white house economic advisor says that basically we can measure the success of the stimulus plan not by the end of this year but by the end of next year. which case most say it will be over without any help. >> this is -- mike illuminates the consequent essential the dog ate my homework. no matter what they say here is the fact. obama came in and said unemployment won't go higher than 8% and by the way we got tens of thousands of shovel-ready projects ready to go and states and cities i will hold you accountable. yet for all of these police officers and firearmen that mik

says are hired. it is stimulating the unemployment rate. >> let me tell you what it is stimulating. you didn't see the newspaper today. >> it has to take time and we need more money. >> no, no, that is not my comeback. j.p. morgan announced second quarter profit of $2.7 billion. goldman sachs had -- brenda: mike, wait. >> that has nothing to do with the stimulus plan. >> they paid back $10 billion back to tarp. sour telling me it is not working? brenda: hold on, hold on. mike, you are going to get a little help. pat you hi the stimulus is working but what, it is hard to measure? >> it is very hard to measure and i think it is hard to make the case it increased unemployment but i think it is hard to make the case that it

dramatically decreased unemployment. not much has been disbursed and to get the j.p. morgan point, the reason they made money is they had a lot of equity and debt offering the second quarter because basically everybody trusts them now they don't trust citi or bank of america which has squat to do with the stimulus bill. brenda: mike, i thought you hated wall street. >> i'm not taking up for them. the guys on wall street ought to send and i love you message to obama because they are still in business because of obama. and gary b may not admit that, but that is the truth. >> it is because of ben bernanke that says it has nothing to do the stimulus or tarp. brenda: toby, you get the last word here. >> well, i love mike because he's my favorite liberal. we ask a question and about the third time he tells us something we're talking about j.p. morgan. thank you for being so clear.

brenda: we do love you, mike. so much so we will bring you back. 15 minutes from now guess what we have? a new car czar around guess who is all over it. cavuto and his gang. why somebody says the new boss could give unions more power. with one green push did wal-mart just tell washington to butt out and spare you a big tax hike?

[ birds chirping ] [ crunch! ] [ gasps ] [ stork ] [ laughs ] sorry, miss. [ crunch ] the girl can't help it. it's a vlasic. [ crunch ]

vlasic. that's the tastiest crunch i've ever heard.

brenda: who needs uncle sam we

you have wal-mart planning to put green labels annual products to tell people how good or bad the stuff is for the environment. paper towels, flat screen tv's. toby, you say wal-mart saved us from a big tax hike? >> heavens to betsy, you know, gosh, the biggest retailer and capitalist in the united states almost uses the free market and customers to give them feedback in this thing called a democracy and we don't have to have anybody pass a law to get us to behave the way we like. that is why cap in trade is such a crock, forget the fact that kline and india will do more and it is just a way to pay for healthcare or something else. this is capitalism. let it work. brenda: you are pulling us over to another subject, mike let's get back to this subject. do you like what wal-mart is doing? >> i do love wal-mart.

it doesn't have anything to do with the economy but they have brilliant advertising agencies working for them trying to fix an image problem. their c.e.o. is brilliant. scott is a hand-on way to fix the image, unfair to labor and small community businesses. brenda: i know how much you love wal-mart because lee scott is not the c.e.o. any more. >> well, whatever. brenda: that is all right. >> that is my level of memory. brenda: gary b, jump on it. do you like the wal-mart thing? >> mike is going to be shocked. he might have the one with the heart problem after this but i kind of agree with him. i don't think wal-mart cares quite frankly about the image problem. i think they care to the extent that it cuts into their profit. so, as much as this might be a good kumbaya thing, i think wal-mart sees it as a chance to make more money. they are giving the customer what they think the customer

wants and it will increase market share. brenda: joey b, it may cost more to stock the goods. >> i didn't coin this phrase but green washing. the ultimate form of corporate propaganda. look what they are doing to the environment. this could backfire. first the government will go after them on the pollution side but companies will reprice merchandise, perhaps not do business with wal-mart because they are being put in the wrong light and who said these standards are the right standards? now we will have legal fights over what the definition of solution is and what is green and not green. they are opening up a upon radar ra's box. -- a pandora's box. brenda: is it enough for the government to butt out if they have more companies doing it? >> they are responding. if you want more green stuff and you will pay that what wal-mart will give them. >> consumers would love to have free stuff as long as it is

green but if you tell them it costs you the dynamic changes. so don't make that an assumption that the consumer wants to be green. >> they have been having surveys that show they will pay -- >> why are they not lining up to buy the prius? really? >> proctor and gamble. colgate are rolling out green products and people are paying more. brenda: guys, what did i say. we will say goodbye to you, mike but everybody else is sticking around. the friendly skies or the fat-free skies, the uniform, the airline and name that could take 50% for making workers stay fit.

>> did you see the delta thing why they don't have size 18 any more. they are slimming down and the business will pick up in the third quarter. i think it is up 50% by the end of the year. >> it is not flight attendants that are bloated. it is the company. they don't have control of energy and now you have to still lose money despite what they are trying to do. brenda: you like the tech sector. >> i do. i think oracle is a stock that can move 30% from here over a year because business spending

will pick up. the general business position is fine and all of tech is on fire. brenda: pat, what do you think? >> i don't think so. you heard most tech companies saying spending is not picking up. brenda: where would you be? >> intuitive surgical makes minimally invasive surgical devices. you cut a small hole. get the person out of the hospital faster, lower cost. brenda: 50% in two years? wow. toby, what do you think? >> i love it. i love it stock and love the fact that you are talking about puttinging holes in people. brenda: gary b, 10 seconds. >> starbucks is opening new stores, they will bomb and serve alcohol and stuff. if you want good coffee they should stick to mcdonald's. it is the stock up 20%. brenda: what do you think, toby?