>> it is cheap. relatively cheap. i think the talented blonde has found a good one fl. fltone. [captioning made possible by fox news channel] >> we are going to go bankrupt as a nation. people say what are you talking about, joe. you are telling me we have too far to go spend money to keep from going bankrupt. yes. david: vice president biden at it again, folks. second most powerful man in the country saying america needs to spend money it doesn't are to avoid bankruptcy just days after president obama admitted we are broke. can creating more debt keep bankruptcy away? welcome to "forbes on fox." we go in focus with the man himself, steve forbes, elizabeth mcdonald neil weinberg and john rutledge. and the rest of the crew.

isn't this the strategy that led g.m. in bankruptcy? >> that is a good solution if you are an alcoholic take another drink. i think he is trying out for comedy central and he will get it. in terms of the fiscal plan if you don't have the money you can't spend it. you either borrow it, create it or tax it all of which will hurt the economy. >> joe biden and a group of senior citizens is a recipe for a garbled message. it is investment. that is the point. the only way out of the situation is to grow out. g.d.p. growth is the only way. there is no tax to pay for this and no spending cut to take care of it. to grow you have to invest. i think j.p. morgan and goldman sachs's earnings are proof. we spend tons of money rehabilitating them. david: john, invest in a what? $700 million welfare program for horses. that is part of the stimulus

bill. is that investment going to save us? >> horses feel pain, too. joe biden is an idiot he ought to on the fox business payroll for the quotes he gives us. they will borrow $10 trillion and the healthcare bill which is another trillion or two on top of that. they will quadruple debt as a share of g.d.p. they are driving us into bankruptcy. people are running from the doll dollar. david: these numbers don't add up, do they? >> they create more deficit. but my gosh a net deficit? obama and biden show up at the end of the party and get blamed for the hangover. this is preposterous. look at the spending you had for years. homeland security, our sad war in iraq. farm subsidy. medicare drug bill. all of them make up the deficit. obama spending is 7%.

as mike said, it is is an investment. and the company is companies do it all the time. a company going into receivership will borrow more to restructure. this is borrowing to restructure. not wasteful spending. david: the rocco comment is because of the way mike is dressed. i think he looks terrific. get a picture of him. >> he ought to be in ie guys and dolls." david: but this has come after the stimulus. this is new stuff. >> that 7% number sounds like a number cooked up on wall street. biden has effectively said to the american people pile into the bike of my space ship while i point it at the center of the sun. no one would have won the presidential election if they told the truth. if they said what john rutledge said and stopped whipping fastballs by the american people the size of jupiter. the death will be three-quarters

the size of the g.d.p. this is delusional. david: elizabeth for president. >> this is the worst form of politics. this is pure pandering on the part of biden but george bush did it. he said we need to spend our way out of the problem. that started the housing boom and bust. pat buchanan said it. there is no small government party left in washington, no one protecting our pocketbook. all the ways to get out of bad except the one we are doing is not just borrowing, we should call it stealing from our children. david: steve buchanan also said we are on the road to socialism. are we? >> if they had their way we would be. the irony on the terms of president obama is if congress rejects his program he will survive politically. if he gets his way he will be destroyed because he will destroy the economy. in terms of mike calling the spending investment that is straight from george orwell

calling horse welfare. maybe it is good for horsing. they have 535 of them with the wrong end it congress. david: let's here what nathan has to say. >> there's a lot of investment spending, wall street, tarp, stimulus. there's a ton of infrastructure in there. you are going to find screwed up little programs for horses -- david: make your point quickly. >> eliminate the stimulus entirely it will do nothing to reduce the long-term deficit. david: what about the figures? >> the numbers are wrong but the infrastructure spending is less than one-eighth of the stimulus plan. $100 billion, the rest is transfer payments, welfare. we want to take care of poor people but no government has the right to blow out the deficit just because the prior government didn't.

>> early 1980's had a recession worse than this, higher unemployment. ronald reagan reined in government spevending, cut taxes and we had a great boom. 1920-1921 we had a depression nobody reads about. government spending cut in half and we made a rapid recovery. the less the government does, the better. david: so history is our guide, no? >> history is our guide and ronald reagan had the benefit of a decent infrastructure that create a basis on which you could grow the economy. george bush did nothing for the natural infrastructure. obama documents bring it back up to speed. that helps the economy. that is what biden is talking about. >> that infrastructure was 22% commercial paper, 15% long bond and 15% inflation, 70% top marginal federal tax rate and minus 1% growth when the gipper came in. that doesn't sound like a great basis to me. david: i'm old enough to

remember when the gipper came in. the economy was miserable. it was terrible. we had 14% inflation, 20% interest rates. forget about it. he turned around a mess. >> and what they did, it wasn't identi ideology it was the fact they were willing to bite the bullet, we need to take a short-term pain for long-term gain. we couldn't borrow and waste money to get out of it. >> unfortunately he did blame carter for blowing out the deficit and reagan blew out the deficit with military spending. but infrastructure spend something low in the plans that the government is putting forward now. that is what will bring the country back. they have whipped a fastball the size of june terror. >> you would support a stimulus with more infrastructure? >> yes. >> that is great. >> no, no. there is nothing stimulative about this. this is a $1.5 trillion deficit

this year and that is before we factor in the rising tax rates which are going to cut output, which are going to push interest rates up. >> spending on medicare, medicaid, my generation hits, that you have trillions more. david: medicaid and medicare which lose about $60 billion a year to waste and fraud. will we multiply that? >> multiply that and sheer outlay. trillions more. david: don't like your landlord, don't have a landlord? uncle sam wants to be your landlord. first, why raises are bad for your career? welcome to the now network. population 49 million.

right now, 1.5 million people are on a conference call. 750,000 wish they weren't. - ( phones chirping ) - construction workers are making 244,000 nextel direct connect calls. 1 million people are responding to an email. - 151 accidentally hit "reply all." - ( foghorn blows ) that's happening now. america's most dependable 3g network bringing you the first wireless 4g network. - sprint. the now network. - ( whoosh sound ) deaf, hard of hearing and people with speech disabilities access www.sprintrelay.com.

>> from america's news headquarters i'm jamie colby. there is sad news to report. walter cronkite died last night after a long illness. he anchored the "cbs evening news" covering stories from the assassination of john kennedy to the vietnam war and the first moon landing. he was 92 years old. shuttle endeavour astronauts are getting ready for the first space walk today at noon. two astronauts will attach the

final piece of japan's space lab. it performed a back flip. a large amount of foam broke off during liftoff and nasa says it won't be a problem. now back to "forbes on fox." keep it on fox, the most powerful name in news. david: making more money is bad? the minimum wage will jump 11% to $7.25 and jack says the heighike is terrible. >> it will go from $6.65 an hour to $7.25. a company employing 10 employees can only afford to employ nine at $7.25 an hour without increasing the payroll. and they just passed or looking

to pass a 50% hike on payroll taxes for small businesses without healthcare insurance so this is bad for job creation. you are looking at 10% unemployment for minimum wage earners and some say this could go up to 300,000 lost minimum wage jobs. david: a hike is a jobs killer, quentin? >> jack is right as long as the company has only wages as a cost and has no pricing power whatsoever. this, however, is not true. in real terms the minimum wage has been higher than this every year except one between 1955 and 1983. that is, multiple economic conditions. it made no overall difference. so, not true. and the average wage at minimum wage or below in only two industries, casino gambling and fast food. one is a drag on america in terms of the stupid tax of gambling, the other is contributing to our health

problem. these industries are blunt add bit. i see a net benefit. david: bottom line is i don't know about the numbers but a lot of teenagers survive on a minimum wage. they live at home, not like they are providing for families. >> most minimum wage earners are not the primary earner. only a very small percentage. and most businesses that pay the minimum wage, yes, some casinos but most are narrowly margined. so you are going to hurt -- you will raise wages but put them out of business so what in the world do we think we are doing? if we could legislate prosperity why to the not do that. >> but it doesn't kill johnson. >> if it is marginal why have such an impact. i hear what quentin is saying and i would have to say to some degree i would have to say. the personal of hourly paid workers at or below minimum wage is at the lowest since the day

it was first selecollected in 1. ireland and england hiked their minimum and they didn't crater. we are talking about helping college kids to get their feet on the ground. it doesn't affect businesses. what affects them more is regulations and all sorts of things the government puts on the backs of entrepreneurs. david: it doesn't happen every week that they agree. >> i disagree because for many small companies a minimum wage, high minimum wage is a job killer. i'm for people making more money. i love more money myself but i would rather have more jobs in the economy given the choice between a $6 wage and no job i would rather have the $6. >> i don't think it kills jobs. if you have the minimum wage you may as well have one that is meaningful. if you don't agree you should have a certain amount of of

purchasing power abolish it. and you can see what happens to might rant farm workers david: jack, what do you say? >> the premise of this argument is that it kills jobs. it is a burden on small businesses with slim profit margins. we have already raised minimum wage or will have next week 40% since 2007. this is going to hurt jobs. teenage unemployment is already 25%. this is going to hurt it more. >> among the minority teenagers it is 40% when wages are being purchased by the severe recession. so, wages are being deflated. they will increase the minimum wage and have an adverse impact. david: quentin, you are very sensitive to these. they are really getting crush bid this recession. won't it hurt them more? >> that is a snapshot of the present and teenagers typically minorities are doing terribly. you say you can't legislate

prosperity but we had a higher minimum wage between 1955 and 1983 when there was a broader middle class in this country. we did legislate prosperity. it has been below that since 1983 and the top 1% of the country now has 20% of the income. you think that is fair? i don't. >> to pay 40% to 50% of the tax revenues. >> they are still richer. they can afford to. >> these are the jobs producers. i would have to disagree on that level but be clear. cut the corporate rate. our corporate rate is 11 percentage points higher than the social countries. >> on quentin's early points that the companies can do early things that is not true. but even any raised prices you negate the point of increasing the minimum wage because the cost of living will go up.

>> they survive fine. >> california and new york perfect examples. david: last word from the boss. bargain hunters, you may think you are shopping smart but it could cost you big time. wait until you hear what credit card companies are reportedly doing to people who are digging for discounts, why someone here thinks they are nothing but a word we can not say on television. it's what doct most for headaches. for arthritis pain... in your hands... knees... and back. for little bodies with fevers.. and big bodies on high blood pressure medicine. tylenol works with your body... in a way other pain relievers don't... so you feel better... knowing doctors recommend tylenol... more than any other brand of pain reliever.

[ birds chirping ] [ pickle crunches ] [ meows ] oops. [ laughs ] now, that's what a pickle should sound like.

[ stork ] vlasic. that's the tastiest crunch i've ever heard. david: a report%%%%%%%%%

david: lacy rose thinks something is wrong with this. >> this is a bad message and is foolish policy. the best indicator of risk profile is credit history. when you are paying bills on time it shouldn't matter what you are buying and where you are buying it. david: the big brother aspect is creepy. >> that is the government telling private enterprise how to run business and i'm sorry, i think that maybe the large credit card issuers know better than you do about how to figure out who is a good credit. let the companies do their business. david: you think it is good business? >> good business. >> it is a bad message. it is not illegal but they are jerks for doing it and i don't think it is so smart. credit rating is not an exact

science. for people to save cash is important and smart people save cash not dumb people. and by the way the reason there is no bank loans is because the stimulus plan has shut off bank lending. that is what driving people to thrift stores. david: even people like john are at the thrift stores. >> we are doing the segment on thrift store clothing and welcome to the planet. super markets track what you are doing with their club cards. amazon.com tracks you. i daresay foreclosures does through direct marketing lists. that is modern big business. you are tracked all the time. it is a surveillance economy and it is true all over the world. these guys are acting like everybody else. my problem is that they are probably not doing it particularly well. i shop at shift stores for things lake c.d.'s, neck ties that are cast off.

books. it depends on what you are buying and whether it is a change in your habit. david: big brother, we have to get used to it, steve. >> big brother has always been around but i think credit card companies have the freedom to be nutty and crazy about what they are going to do is overreacting on the down side they are going to open themselves up to new competitors who will figure out how to coudo it better. david: do you think the government should stop them? >> i'm not sure what the answer is but the reality is that there is a lesson we have learned in recent months is the danger is extending beyond your means now you will penalize those that are prudent? you are doing the opposite route and attacking those that are blowing money that they don't have. >> they won't overreact too much. they won't stop giving credit because they want your business. david: a guy who won't be shopping tomorrow because tomorrow is his birthday is right here, steve forbes.

we want to say happen birthday to you, steve. >> and don't shop in thrift shops in my presence. david: chase and bank of america doing fine these days. how about you? our informers have the stocks ready to make you money and keep you from needing a bailout.

david: we are back with the stocks ready to make you a quick

buck. this is the favorite food of steve forbes you are talking about. >> wendy's, arbies it is great and they are expanding the breakfast menu. david: jack, you and steve alone could keep them afloat. >> that is true. they are bacon cheddar notwithstanding i think they have problems with the debt. they issued a half billion in new debt. it is tricky to manage. david: you are talking cheap groceries. >> and supervalu compared to kroger or whole foods. very cheap on the valuation and new c.e.o. looking to turn it around. sfl they are near the 12-month low. >> it may be cheap but i don't know if there is a lot of value. i'm not sure i believe the management and they have not proven themselves truly competitive. david: you guys are going in opposite directions. >> i say amerigroup and

regardless of what happens -- david: just when the feds are about to take it over? >> we will have more of the services so while there are cost pressures there is opportunity. david: john, managed healthcare? >> minus 2.4% is in the exciting. i don't think they run the business very well. david: you are excited by bond? >> i do because this is inflation protected bonds outside the u.s. when the world dumps dollars and the inflation rate go up you get a premium and make a gain. >> when i see the black helicopters overhead i will say ok. but if you want to protect yourself fidelity and vanguard have cheaper mutual funds. >> these you tips and u.s. bonds, i want non-u.s. bonds. david: that is it for foreclosu"forbes on fox". keep it right .