if you want a good laugh, you can go to our web site and see me modeling the pathhats. [captioning made possible by fox news channel] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- sean: tonight -- >> the president will the evaluate this idea or any idea. sean: democrats unleash a rebellion by dumping the public option. the democratic machine sets its site on you. one democratic congressman vows to throw his district under the bus. you will not believe who is behind this poster. all of that including dana perino.

the summer of town halls continues across america. for weeks, we have seen concerned citizens go face-to- face with their elected representatives and they have been speaking out against the prospect of government run health care. congressman barney frank held a town hall in dartmouth, mass. that just finished a few moments ago. we were there to witness all of it and we have an update. >> leave it to barney frank to take a different tack with town hall meetings. he was as contentious and cantankerous with the audience as anyone i've seen. this just ended a couple of moments ago, ending just two and a half hours in an early part of the meeting. the party chair here had to try to escort someone out. take a look at what happened.

>> get out. >> get out. >> ray, i have just ask the chairman to ignore the disruptions. >> and that chairman offering for both sides to be heard. people were giving a referendum on washington. they are upset on the deficit spending. they are upset about the things that are being done. >> do you really think that that is thoughtful conversation or that advance is your argument? i thought you were thoughtful people here to have a conversation. is it because you don't like what i'm saying? what is the matter with you all?

what do you think you are accomplishing by yelling? >> he talked down to the audience. discussion evolved into a discussion about whether or not he was putting people down. one audience member said "why are you putting us down?" we don't have that video. you open it up by talking about the public auction. i was able to talk with barney frank about the public auction. i asked him if he would sign a bill that does not include a public auction and he said that that is in discussion. he is negotiating that. he said that he would not negotiate with me because i don't have a vote. that was a dodge. one more town hall meeting that he alluded to and likely will be there. sean: joining us to discuss this

is michele bachmann. i call her the second most hated republican woman in the country. that is a good position. welcome back to the show. >> always a thrill to be with you. thank you. sean: barney frank has a very safe district. the arrogance, the condescension, the battling with voters. something has changed and i cannot pinpointed. i have never seen voters attach to this way. >> members of congress are at home this august and they are having an opportunity to be able to actually hear from normal americans about how they feel about this health care proposal rather than the lobbyists that have been swirling through the halls of congress. this is a wonderful thing, we're actually seeing democracy in action. it will be difficult for members of congress to be going back to washington and voted against

their constituents' interests. no one can say that they did not realize where the heartbeat of the country is. sean: we have a congressman literally on tape saying that he will vote against the best interests of his district because of his ideology. that does not seem -- i always thought it was the job of the representatives to represent their districts, their constituents. has something changed? >> that is exactly what it is and that is what the constitution requires. many of members of congress may have forgotten what the constitution says but it is not within our power as members of congress, not within the new rated powers of the constitution for us to design and create a national takeover of health care. we also cannot delegate this to the executive. we need to listen to our

constituents. they are telling us from alaska, to hawaii to texas, do not have the federal government take over health care. members of congress will vote against their constituents. >> what do you make of this internal battle within the democratic party? some say that they were thrown under the bus and if you don't have the government option, we'd not have the -- we will not have the bill. what do you make of the strife? >> there's an effort made to call the public auction something else other than a public auction in order to fool the public and to buy support for blue dogs and the liberals. that will not work. what we know now, harry reid and nancy pelosi have said it does not matter what you call it, it is a public auction. the american people have been extremely effective with

congress, now is not the time to give up. now is not the time to take the pressure off. they will move forward with some level of a public auction. it might not be the full level that they want but it will be incrementally in that direction. if they have to wait a couple of years to get the public auction, they will do it. the american people need to rise up and say no. sean: i think that they are playing word games. this is a strategy. they will call it something else. if the government ultimately decides who is covered, if the government decides what people can charge, if the government decides what care you get, it is still destroys the public free market system, the private insurance system. >> yes, because it is government control and mandates. the government mandates that you do something or they will do it to themselves. clearly they're not going in the

direction people want to go. we are known for innovation in health care in minnesota. we have a great medical schools. we have a gentle man who in his garage in scented the pacemaker. we are the leader of innovation. -- we have a man who in his garage invented the pacemaker. sean: the president is saying that the town halls are not real and this is manufactured and the only thing the american people don't quite get it yet. i saw a headline that is going to be a "new york times" article that the democrats are willing to go it alone. if they do that, what does that mean politically for that? >> if they do that, they will really be alone in november, 2010, because the american people are very intelligent. members of congress might not

read these bills but the american people to read these bills and they will not let their representatives alone. we are listening to our constituents, we are holding town hall meetings. we are hearing exactly what the democrats are hearing and it will be a very tough time for them in november, 2010. >> in all 50 states, more people identify themselves as conservatives. nationwide, they identify themselves as conservatives. if the government option is now dropped, if they dropped the death panels, the provision to wrap on your neighbor, isn't this evidence that the grandmother said showing up, the veterans the angry monsters, they have had a real profound effect. -- the provision to rat on

your neighbor, the angry mobsters. >> winston churchill said this is not the beginning, this is not the beginning of the end. we need to keep this up because president obama told the house republicans in a private meeting, even if he is a one- term president, he intends to go forward with his agenda. we need to hold them accountable. sean: i don't understand why liberals don't like you. >> come visit us. we would love to hear you. sean: i will take you on that. president obama likes talking about his friends at the double a r p but he might be responsible for a massive drop in that order stations membership. membership. -- his friends at the aa boss: so you've been doing a nice job out there

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canceled their memberships to that group since

sean: president obama once called a public auction and essential element of reform but his aides appeared to be

changing their tune. >> that is not the essential element. >> he prefers the public option as a way of doing that. we are open to other ideas and willing to listen. >> the publisean: it is no longr essential and this has outraged members of his party. many say they will vote against legislation that does not include a public auction. where does the president go from here? i am joined by dana perino and tracy burns. congressman anthony wiener said that he >> there are many cabinetwhat this signaled is that the public option is dead and not coming back. sean: is it real when they talk about this as a co-op and this is repackaged?

the government will control the price. >> "the new york times" said that the co-ops are more ill- defined than the public auction. republicans will not vote for this. because you start with government funds and you put it into a pot and then it grows from there. save them money. once the government's money is anywhere, it is everywhere. >> it would not be a good thing to create a government version of a at fannie mae and fannie mac. sean: if they cover the means of servicing pricing and supply, they decide which services that you want, they are controlling it in another way so it is still destroying the public auction. >> they're still not answering the questions, can i keep my doctor. >> continuing to go forward

with this, this will get chopped up. they're trying to destroy the insurance companies. >> they spent three days arguing amongst themselves whether or not the president supports it public option. last week i said to have a fact problem, this we have a communications problem. sean: this was a campaign that had incredible discipline but they don't have the same discipline in the white house. >> they are very sophisticated communicators and i think what happened is that they floated this trial balloon and it popped and then they said they did not. let me tell you, if you are at the white house and you're trying to tell everyone that there is nothing new here,

something is new. sean: what are we to make about the aarp? there was a report, 60,000 members have left. that is very indicative that they are losing seniors. there is a conservative alternative. what does this mean? >> this administration just comes out and shoots first and answers later. this whole notion of trying to scare us into signing on to something is disappearing. i think the seniors are the perfect group. >> we have to look at how seniors will feel about this. they are walking down a road where they want people to move anyone and anything unless they pull this back. sean: a blue dog said that scrapping obama care is a good

idea. another person said the obama said that he is willing to sacrifice re-election for obama care. >> the reason that they want that deadline is because they knew this was gonna happen. their mind is not necessarily on september, they are concerned about next november. sean: they have not learned about this, they have been tearing up to the american people. now they're calling them brown shirts. now people at these town halls, they are being called like they are fascists. >> this creates uncertainty. people to not like uncertainty. the market does not like uncertainty. the obama administration is trying to correct the economy. they are making it worse. they're calling people names.

we see this, this is all affected in the volatility of the market. >> if you cannot explain your position to the american people, then they attack the american people. sean: how crazy is that? >> where do you go from there? >> listen to barney frank said. he was practically bored with it already had this condescending look on his face. how dare he? sean: they have got away from paul the idea of being public servants. if they act that way, that arrogance will result in a massive defection. good to see you. coming up, conservatives were widely attacked for creating this poster of president obama.

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sean: one of the biggest political mysteries of the year has been stalled. the "l.a. times" has solved the mystery behind this poster. this depicts the president as the infamous "batman" villain. the person who made this is from the president's home town. he is no fan of the president. he said --

sean: in fact, i guess he supported -- guess who he supported? dennis kucinich. this congressman is not seem interested in what his constituents think. he told reporters that he will support a single payer health care bill even if that means voting against the interests of his district. take a look. >> >> [inaudible] >> i will vote adamantly against the interests of my district if i think it will help. i will vote against their opinion. sean: isn't it funny how democrats seem to know what is better for you than you do? we put the spotlight on the

water shortage that is facing the san joaquin valley. ithe special report has caught the attention of the obama administration. just one day after our show aired, the secretary of the interior held a public meeting. sean: it has been announced that additional meetings will be held next month in whawashington to discuss this. we will be keeping our eye on this in the days and weeks ahead. >> now it is time for great moments in liberal foreign policy. sean: this is brought to you by barack obama. this is at the time when russia needs -- when we need russian

cooperation, the president might have damaged our alliance. the relations with georgia is no secret. the president accepted the offer by georgia to send troops to afghanistan. this is likely to make russia angry and jeopardize their willingness to cooperate with us on major issues. according to the former official in the state and defense departments -- sean: my thought that president obama had that sophisticated test that we needed to restore our relations with the rest of the world. we will the regenerist results are in.

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sean: when president obama and the democrats began their push for health reform, they did not expect the american public to fight against them. public support is continuing to slip and it has become clear how important words are in this debate. someone who knows a good deal about this is frank luntz. welcome back. >> can ask you a question? there is something that came up. you are calling this a public option which is what the white house calls it. are you sure it is not a government auction. it is sponsored and paid for by

the government. this is important. if you call it a public auction, the american people are split, if you call it that the government option, they are against this. sean: this is a great point. we spend time with our own little town hall last week. you spend time with people and you did some dials with us. you have 15 that supported barack obama and 14 that supported john mccain. you played the part that was about the health care in obama's speech. >> win obama speaks naturally, -- when obama speaks, naturally the democratic line goes up and

republicans could down. when he finishes his line, the republicans don't like it. >> if you don't have health insurance, you will finally have options once we pass reform. if you do have health insurance, we will make sure that no interest company or government bureaucrat is between you and the care that you need and you will do this without adding to the deficit largely by cutting out the waste and insurance giveaways are not making any of our seniors healthy. sean: this attack line seems to work only against democrats. >> he is actually attacking medicare. that is something that is really important for your audience whether you're 65 or older, you have parents that are 65 or older.

it is almost like he is declaring war on medicare because this is the only way for him to pay for health care. this is an interesting gambit and i don't think it will work. >sean: has the attack on insurance companies been effective? >> honestly, yes it has. the american people don't like insurance companies and they don't like being turned down for care. while the public doesn't like the insurance industry, they like their own health-care plan. they don't like the system, they think that it is working for them individually. the polling that i have been watching over the past six weeks, more and more americans think that the health care is good enough and they don't want to jeopardize it for the government planned. sean: let's take another look at the reaction of what he was telling people. >> that is what america's about. we have a vigorous debate. that is why we have a democracy.

i hope that we will talk with each other and not over each other. [applause] one of the objectives of democracy and debate is that we start refining our own opinions because maybe other people have their own perspectives of things we did not think of. let's disagree over things that are real, not these wild misrepresentations that bear no resemblance to anything that is actually being proposed. sean: what is amazing is that it is his party attacking the people let town halls and say that they are caring swastikas and an american. -- they are carrying swastikas and unamerican.

>> we didn't like it when people talk about the iraqi war. bill clinton did not like it when people were shouting at him. i think that this debate can and should be conducted in a civil and meaningful manner. let's talk about the language "not of the misrepresentations." they are talking about lowering it reimbursements for medicare. that is a fact. every senior has the right to know exactly what will and will not be paid for every doctor has the right to know whether they will be reimbursed. sean: i have read the entire bill. they will tax small businesses. this is if they don't go for the government option. they will be punished. i am all for being civil but i don't think the grandmothers and

the veterans that are expressing passion have been disrespectful. as a matter of fact, i think that is quintessentially american that we have witnessed this. i cannot think of an instance where anyone crossed the line. it seems that the fact that the american people have spoken out as offended them. >> they were surprised. they did not expect there to be a public outcry. one catastrophic care was pushed, seniors took a look at legislation. -- when the catastrophic care was pushed. sean: i only have time for one more. >> working families continued to bail out wall street banks, we pay mortgages for those that borrowed too much, we own general motors, the federal deficit tripled in one year.

where does it end? now the government wants to take over health care. this means exploding taxpayer costs. there is a better way to health reform with patients and doctors in charge, not government and insurance companies. tell harry reid that we cannot afford health care. sean: they had the democrats for most of that advertisement, why? >> because it was an advertisement that presented an alternative rather than just offending. the advertisement gave an answer, let's find a debate. always, we will follow this debate. when we come back, we will have the great american panel. the great american panel. here's one more... ziploc evolve.

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sean: we are joined by caroline feldman, the chairmen of the club for growth, chrus chocola, and joe. barney frank was talking to people and he was arrogant. people are asking great questions. >> we were promised change that we can believe in. so far, if we are going and we have these changes, we don't even have a clue as to what they are, how can we believe in it?

how can we trust the government that is shoving things through without letting us have a reasonable discussion? >> twho ever told you to trust the government? use your own individual initiative. sean: the government bank erupted medicare, medicaid, social security, and upon it was not supposed to go over 8%. why should we trust them on health care? >> i think that the response was really wonderful. he says not to trust the government, and get educated. sean: he wanted to ram this bill down our throat without reading it. >> health care is a really complicated issue and so far we are in the land of fiction. we are in a land of fiction with deaf panels.

-- death panels. sean: at the end, they're talking about end of life counseling. i don't want someone talking about this. >> this is the first time i've ever agreed with barney frank. there's a reason why people don't trust the government, they cannot think of anything that the government has done well. they think -- >> the post office does not run well? the post office is an efficient organization. >> he is talking about running a system with the efficiency of the post office and the compassion of the irs. people are angry and scared. sean: they made a lot of promises about the stimulus, none of which are coming true. 60% of americans think that it

has failed. >> the thing about barney frank, i like him. i live in massachusetts. mitt romney was our governor and he pushed universal health coverage through. sean: it is a different idea. >> he said it would not cost you any more for the right now in massachusetts, the program is going broke. people not aware of this. my sister and long have to wait four months for an appointment with a cardiologists. it is costing us more for less coverage. if that is a model of what barney frank is pushing for, i am worried about it. sean: the democrats are in fighting. you have the liberal wing who say they will leave if they don't have the government auction. that is what they have said.

the other side, politically it is not a viable because every poll shows that they don't want what is being pushed. if they change the language a little bit and they talk about whether that this will be a co- op, if the government supplies the services, the pricing and the supply, isn't that government health care? >> you are talking about the cooperatives and people try to have more bargaining power. that is not a government program. sean: if the government controls the pricing. >> there's not a ration of health care. it will bring down costs. sean: medicare is rationed. right now people are denied coverage. >> harry reid said that there will be public auction. it will be government run. rahm emanuel is very insightful and he said that the goal is not negotiable but the passes. . the-- the path is.

this is government run health care. sean: what if the democrats go alone? what will happen? >> that will not work. i think it will go to the senate. sean: you think this is dead on arrival? this is the holy grail. >> that's right, we think of it as a human right. where the constitution does this say that we have a right to privacy? it has been interpreted. are you saying that we shouldn't be watching out and providing care? i have confidence in the government and private-sector.

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sean: all right, we continue now with our great american panel. we were having a conversation during the break. we were going over the numbers. it is said that 47 million people are uninsured. if you factor out the people who are temporarily uninsured or do not have their insurance for four or five months, if you take that people 18 to 25 who choose not to have insurance to save money, we are dealing with about 15 million people. why would we changed, the best system in the world, that has prolonged slide and given us the best quality of life, 45% of the

population? >> one, take twice as much as other industrialized nations. sean: that is not true -- we pay twice as much. sean: that is not true. >> the second thing, our premiums have gone up 80% since 2002, and profits for insurance companies have gone up 400%. that seems like a monopoly to me. we need competition, and the government is exactly the body to provide that. sean: they said millions of people will be forced out. here are my solutions. tort reform, medical savings accounts, tax credits for people who cannot afford it so they can get catastrophic insurance, which is what most people are afraid about. >> get rid of mandates, let people shop over state lines. but this is not about coverage, sean. this is about control.

this is not about covering people. this is about government- controlled health care, and that is the dirty, little secret. >> i do not think so. i do not think it is about -- i do not think the objective is for the government to take over. i think it is a means that is a problem. we do not want this. government should stay out as much as possible in health care because look at medicare. you hear that 3% overhead, right, medicare? you know what? all they do is write checks. sean: in all seriousness -- >> i think we agree on this. sean: have no, we do not agree on this. this will change the relationship between the citizen and the government, where every american has to plead with the government to, "please give me this." and i do not understand why anybody would put their faith in the government. >> i spent time in the soviet

union, ok? and i have been through their health-care system, and it is terrible. sean: how about britain? what about france? people cannot get medicine. >> i really think the issue, and this is where chris and i totally agree, you have to have health insurance companies compete to lower the prices. sean: but they are not competing. >> there is too much government control of state mandates in the state. ó n: you wanted to add? >> we need to deal with the rising health-care costs, and if we do not have a really competitive market for health care, which we do not have because consumers do not know how much we are paying for health care, they do not know how much of the sutures cost, just the buying of things. tort reform, 1% of cost, that is

not a big solution. help savings accounts,s, yes. promoting that along with catastrophic is a good idea. -- helsing savings accounts, yes. -- health these accounts, yes. -- savings accounts, yes. >> you're creating a record for a trial lawyer. >> toward reform in texas works. what people do not think about -- tort reform works. private insurance companies, they are incentivized. they do not negotiate. sean: and monopoly mandating it. >> i agree. the end result if it is a government takeover is a terrible thing.