[captioning made possible by fox news channel] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- neil: well, car dealers still looking for their cash from the cash for clunkers program. so should doctors try to find a way out of any government health care plan? hi, everybody, i'm neil cavuto. even before deciding to end the program months earlier than planned, car dealers have been bailing out in droves because they are not getting paid back fast enough by the government. that plan is just a few billion dollars. it was completely mismanaged, at least financially. health care will be in the trillions of dollars. so if i'm a doctor watching all this and thinking how are they ever going to pay me? our crew this morning is ben stein and charles payne, dagen mcdowell, rob stein as well. charles, what do you make of that? >> this is a scary element.

the only element i can think worse than this, you come home and another man's shoes sunder your bed. you know what's going on. listen, $145 million -- neil: i would be ok with the plumber. it's very difficult booking that dude. >> $145 million has been paid out on $2 billion. at the end of the day, i don't know how any of these politicians can say that -- and i have heard a couple of them talk about efficiency, but you can't use the word efficiency and government run in the same sentence. they just don't go together. this is scary as all get out. neil: the president is right. the cash for clunkers was much more successful than they thought so they couldn't keep up with the demand. you can argue they should have planned for that. the problem wasn't the lack of interest. it was too much interest. >> right. that sets an example for what could happen. if we got a public option with health care, will a lot more people wind up on it, ultimately because it's cheap. what does that do to private insurance?

also they underestimated the cost of this thing. it was originally $1 billion. because of the demand, oh, it was $3 billion. do you really want that $1 trillion plan that is going to be $3 trillion over 10 years, and then what after that? again, it raises serious concern. neil: it says something about government estimates and how much things cost. ben stein, when medicare first debuted, $65 million annual budget, $400 billion in the last year. these are moving targets to put it mildly. is there a way to relate the ineptitude around this program with what could happen for health care? >> i think it not only could happen but will happen, as charles so aptly said, it's very hard to use the word efficiency and government in the same sentence. government is extremely inefficient in everything it does from military procurement to paying for congressional jet planes. there is nothing government does that's particularly efficient. it's run by people. people tend to be inefficient. it's run by people with no accountability. they tend to be especially inefficient. the union of doctors, the

american medical association, is backing the obama plan, that's a disgrace to medicine. they don't understand the plan. they think they will get paid more for medicare. they think they will get a big bribe out of medicare with this. they will wind world cup their doctors not being paid just the way the dealers are not being paid in the cash for clunkers. what a crazy plan cash for clunkers was where you and i are happy with our cars, paid $4,500 to people who aren't happy with their cars regardless of those people's incomes. what's that about? that's an insane subsidy. neil: i never looked at that. that's a very good point. i want to steal that idea as my own. rob, what do you make of not the cash for clunkers argument but it is a frightening precursor potentially to health care? >> yeah, i think you have to connect a lot of dots in order to get to that conclusion. the cash for clunkers was a new plan. it was put together in a very short time frame. the jury is still out on whether it's going to work. i think it has been a good plan, quite frankly. eventually these people will be

paid. give it a little bit of time. it has only been what? 30 days or so. the government's medicare, medicaid plan, that is a plan that has been working for years and years. i don't believe you can connect the dots with something new with something that has patiently worked. they have gotten paid over the years. neil: i don't know about efficiency. $55 billion opening budget. $400 billion. they said it would never get that big. look at it. >> rob, you should hear the doctors talking about how efficient medicare is. they don't pay them enough. they take forever to pay them. doctors are going broke because of medicare delays and reburment. medicare is not -- reimbursement. medicare is not working efficiently. it would be nice if it were true. >> ben, the numbers speak for themselves. we're talking about the dealers dropping out of cash for clunkers. look at doctors anecdotally who will no longer take medicare. you have more than a quarter of medicare recipients who have trouble finding a primary care physician. only half the physicians take medicaid. we're just beginning to see

doctors not accepting government insurance, particularly if we get more of it. >> also, i mean, you're saying that the cash for clunkers is new, but wouldn't this new health care reform, wouldn't that be new as well? women have the same sort of assumptions. i don't see how -- there is not a loft dots to connect. there is one dot. they messed us up. they didn't know how much it was going to cost the first time. they thought a billion was good. they misjudged that. >> charles, there is a process already in place that pays the doctors. you're right, i used the wrong word with efficiency. it does work. the doctors do ultimately get paid. dagen makes a great point. if doctors don't want to participate in it and if dealers don't want to participate in the cash for clunkers, they don't have to. they can have the choice. it's the consumer who will benefit. >> if the doctors don't participate, how is it going to work? i mean, you have to have patients and doctors to get medical care. you need a sick person and the person treats the sick person.

>> what if we took the auto guys from the clunkers program and they put them in the medical program. >> sounds great. >> you know how the economy works. at some point, the price will attract the people who want to provide the service and the people who want to pay for the service. if you reduce the number of doctors that are participating in medicare and medicaid, those that are participating in it will get an efficient use of it. >> sir, this is not a free market decision. this is a government command economy decision. it's the kind of decision that leaves the chronic shortages just as you're going to see in the medicare when medicare becomes a national health plan. the few doctors who stay in, their offices will be mobbed. it will be a mob scene. it will be a mess. >> alternatively, the bright spot is they will tax the you know what out of any doctor who wants to, quote, opt out. then you drive talented people out of the health care system and out of medicine period.

that's an option, is it not? >> you're going to torture everyone in this. there are some like 80% who are happy with their medical care. there is something like 15% who aren't happy with it. you will torture the 80% for the 15%. i know there is 5% missing there, for the 15% who are not happy. why turn this country upside-down for a few people who are unhappy? why not give those people subsidies to buy private health insurance? >> i actually like that idea. i don't think that what you're saying is connecting the dots, but i agree. take the people who aren't -- take the people who aren't happy with it, create several solutions for them and let them pick one. i agree with that part of it. >> you know that's not going to happen. you know where this is going is ultimately single payer. at the end of the day, we know that's the ultimate goal. anything else is a trojan horse. co-ops, all the other stuff they are talking about. those are all trojan horses. we'll open a series of pandora boxes. >> charles, you think that 20% of the people are going to control what 80% of the people are enjoying?

>> they are 20% obama supporters. neil: it is not enough for big government advocates to make some happy. all must be miserable. that's pretty much the rule. we're going to take a quick break here. forget about cash for clunkers. cash for baskets next? i kid you not. the latest push is to use your tax dollars to pick up the tab for funerals, giving new meaning to the term cradle to grave entitlement. the forbes gang is dying to tell you about it. and tony soprano has nothing on a few democrats. 3... 2... 1. ever wonder how cheez-it bakes...

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>> from america's news headquarters, i'm jamie colby. hurricane bill is churning through the atlantic. it's bearing its brunt on the u.s. coast. forecasters issuing a tropical storm warning for parts of new england including nantucket and martha's vineyard. it's a category two hurricane with winds near 105 miles per hour. folks along the east coast are being told to brace for heavy

rain and flooding, including huge waves and dangerous rip currents. there is a voter monitoring group in afghanistan. they are saying the taliban has followed through with a pre-election threat. according to reports, taliban militants cut off the fingers of two afghan voters during thursday's election. voters there dipped their finishinger in purple ink during the election process. a taliban spokesperson is denying the attack. we're going to send you back to "cavuto on business" only here on the fox news channel. i'm jamie colby. more headlines in 30 minutes. >> totally. they start shooting in a week. >> i'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse. >> enjoy yourself. >> you know, some democrats calling town hall protesters angry mobs, but are the democrats actually acting like a mob? the top two democrats sending a letter to several health

insurance companies asking for financial information on everything from salaries to bonuses to company retreats. these are the same insurance companies not too keen on caniglia's health care bill. ben, quid pro quo there? >> this is pure repression of free speech. this is the government squashing anybody who dares to challenge. this is as dangerous a development as i have seen in this very frightening administration all together. i hardly know what to say except i think mr. obama needs to take constitutional law once again. these people's right to speech is unquestioned. there is no harassing them. f.b.n. is moving a story -- fox business, everyone has to watch, is moving a story saying jay rockefeller is demanding information from the health insurance. they know they are being leaned on. they know they are being bullied. will they stand up to them? let's hope so. neil: what do you do, charles? they are getting the threatening letters. they know it's illegal.

we have had our own judge napolitano say they shun and probably wouldn't want to answer it because of all the implications involved. but they are running at the back end of this bad p.r. because they are vilified for doing everything wrong. i'm not here as an apologist for health insurance. i'm just saying they are going to get that letter. what do you do? >> this is the thing. you know, ironically enough, obama did cut a deal with these guys. the other democrats he has no control over whatsoever which is the nutley thing about this. their golden moment to do something at least as unity. they were promised, ok, you play ball. they said we'll play ball. you won't be threatened or harassed. they are being dragged through the mud, threatened and harassed. i hope they fight back out of principle. >> they are jack walsh with the head of khartoum in their bed. i don't like health insurance companies. i'm not making apologies to them. the democrats need to create a villain out of all of this in

order to sell this. people have a tough relationship with their health insurer. that's who you go after. neil: in scholar, it was bill clinton and the drug companies. this time they signed onto this and said they will get $80 billion in savings, rob stein. they also said they will fork over $150 million for an ad campaign to rally support for this. no one is sending them any letters demanding financial information. it is a little weird, that's all. >> yeah, no, i'm probably going to be on the side of this that you wouldn't expect. i think it's terrible, i do. now, if there is information gathering that's needed in order to make this system work better, i'm in favor of that. it's how do you it and how you gather that information. but i too would love -- neil: this is all on the internet. can you get all this stuff readily available, actually on fbn. >> i'm looking for a thread. neil: talk to the s.e.c. that's exactly right, ben.

>> there is no excuse. they can get anything they want at the s.e.c. this is pure bullying tactics. it's so funny for me to hear jay rockefeller, a man who is made of money because of the province of his grandfather or great grandfather, bullying people about their province. look, this is exactly what government is not supposed to do. this is precisely what the constitution guarantees against, and they are doing it. >> touching on what charles said in the last segment, we're going to get government health insurance by hook or crook here. one way or another. president obama is talking about you can't deny people with existing -- pre-existing conditions from health insurance. we'll cap your out of pocket expenses. what does all that sound like? that sounds like a government takeover of the insurance. neil: charles, this would all go away if any one of these guys wrote a check, if they wrote a check or signed onto this. then the little inquiries into their money and how much they are paying --

>> i like your marlon brando. i like it. >> they are going to cut a check and think they are part of it. a lot of them said listen, we're willing to play ball. the c.e.o. of aetna has been on fbn many times. they say i'm willing to play ball. neil: i would send a letter back. i'm happy to comply if you tell me, you know, the pay for performance that you have. if you tell me what's happened to billions and trillions of taxpayer funded initiatives. >> or how about your freezer. neil: or when you go on a retreat, please tell me which one of seven or so private jets you took to get there. i'm saying what's good for the goose is good for the money-pilfering gander. but that's a whole another issue. i'm ok. when we come back, $787 billion on the economic stimulus plan. all we have so far, 100,000 new government jobs? someone here wants a refund.

neil: bang for your stimulus buck. only if you like a bigger government payroll. there is a new report that shows 110,000 new state and local government jobs were created during the recession thanks in large part to the $787 billion stimulus program. in the same time period, the private sector shed seven million jobs. ben, what do you make of that? >> well, it isn't the fault of obama that the private sector

shed all those jobs, but it is the fault of obama that he made us taxpayers pony up $787 billion, a lot of money, and only a tiny fraction of that has gotten out to actually help anyone. the people that it helps most directly are civil servants, of course members of various unions and interest groups that back obama. naturally that's the way it always is. the rest of the money will be spent in the out years when we're already going to be having a recovery and it will lead to inflationary pressures. this stimulus bill never read by the president, never read by anyone in its entirety as far as i know was just a disaster for good government. neil: when we did this story on fox business network, which if you don't get you really should demand, the white house immediately called me. not someone prominent. it was the white house chef. that's as far as i go. but this guy was saying hello, these are policemen, these are firemen, these were highway workers, these weren't some bureaucrats sitting behind a desk. that was their defense. >> yeah, but here was the promise to ben's point.

this is actually promised to generate millions of jobs. we're talking unemployment rate wasn't going to go -- neil: stay or create. >> this was to create. this one was going to create millions of jobs. unemployment would stop at maybe 8.5%. obviously we're well above all of that. but here's the thing. government is getting bigger and bigger. all of it controlled by the executive branch while main street gets smaller and smaller. i really want people out there -- no, the person out there who makes like $35,000 a year and donated $200 or $300 to the obama administration, i wish any of those people could tell me if anything has happened to them so far, if anything has gone specifically targeted to help them. >> a couple of points, charles. first, a stimulus package was actually passed in the bush administration in the fourth quarter of last year. number one. number two, it created jobs. >> you just made that up. >> no, i didn't. >> no, you did. >> the stimulus package --

>> no. >> it was the paulson plan originally. neil: the financial rescue -- we're talking about -- i'm sorry, ben. we're talking about the actual stimulus that had nothing to do with the bank. >> that was in the obama administration. neil: go ahead, rob, i'm sorry. >> you're right, but the beginning of the spending started before the obama administration. what's interesting to note is the last two months, the job reports have shown a decline in government payrolls. the government payroll has lost jobs in july and lost jobs also in june. so even though it was higher during this recession, it's leveled off. now as the unemployment rate starts to level off and job destruction is less than it was months ago, it's because the private sector is finally starting to -- neil: if you're so much better off, rob, who took your jacket? >> i'm in california. it's hot here. neil: i understand. dagen. >> what's going on is this

perfectly illustrates how government is not managed well. in a downturn with tax revenue collapsing, they will not cut costs. they will not cut people. i think about the 250-some ghost employees they found in the detroit school system. they are dead, and they were drawing paychecks. did you hear about that? neil: all right. we're going to take a break here. a lot of companies that stopped matching their contributions to 401-k retirement plans, they are revving them up again. our gang says don't count on your company to take charge of your future. show and tell

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if you have any of these signs, please call your doctor. early detection can save your life. give to save lives and reach for the cure. call now or log on to childrensdiabetesfoundation.org. neil: 401-k's looking ok these days or better than they did. our gang says you can do even better for your retirement with these stocks right now. charles, what have you got? >> i like allegheny tech. this is a good play if you think the economy is coming back. metals, alloys, this used to be a real hot stock, too. i think it's perfect for 401-k. neil: ben, what do you make of that? >> it's a bet that the 787's fuselage problem will disappear and they will be able to buy lots of titanium from these

industries. if it pays off, it will pay off big. if it doesn't pay off, it will not pay off big. it's a little too risky for me. if you're a plunger, go ahead and do it. neil: what are you doing? >> i like great old berkshire hathaway. still run by the greatest genius in the history of investing. still lots of cash. still buying in lots of positions. i will bet on warren buffet any day. i will take warren buffet at 100 over anybody else at 25. neil: rob? >> he uses leverage in a way i don't like. he also uses derivatives which scare me. he has underperformed the last five or so years. neil: who do you like? >> i like the health care sector, the i.y.h. this sector is undervalued even after it's rallied quite a bit. i actually think it doubles. >> rob, you have been one of the hottest guys on the street, but i think you're getting too cute. neil: all right. [captioning made possible by fox news channel] [captioning made possible by