deserves to be told. i am oliver north. good night. (captioned by closed captioning services, inc.) they say it will help get us out of the $1.6 trillion hole we are now in. town hallers digging in against another costly government plan. who has got it right? i'm brenda butner and this is bulls and bears. get right to it.

$1.6 trillion in red ink, that is why we need government-run healthcare? >> almost laughable, isn't it, brenda? we are going down the hole of bigger and bigger deficits and the obama solution is let's throw another massive government program that will help us out of this hole that we are in. it is just absolutely silly. at heart of this is the obama administration wants a nationalized healthcare for 47 million people but there is not 47 million uninsured, rather. there is maybe half that when you take out the illegal immigrants and people that qualify and people that can afford it. besides, the american public already voted on this. they hate what obama is coming out with and yet they are coming up with silly arguments like the one we were just talking about. >> numbers add up a little bit differently to you? >> 47 million reasons why we need the healthcare.

our federal budget every year has $2.5 trillion worth of revenue. we can't we take that up and divide it up and apply it towards healthcare and get rid of the pork projects and get our people insured. it has been a century of having uninsured americans. there is always excuses not to take care of it. it is on the table and we are negotiating. let's get it done this year. >> we have a deficit and you add more red ink to it? >> the political class made so many promise is. that is why they can't shift the money from here to there. they have to turn around and either of tax everyone to death or eliminate the benefits of certain parts of sew sigh city and take from medicare to pay for what iowa call the baby boomer care. it is not going to work. you have medicaid for the poor that is fine too. don't try and convince us that making medicare, medicaid, what

you do for indians, the military and congress, which you botched, something you can do for the whole population. >> cost containment has not been one of the premier reasons for this but now the democrats are saying hey, we will help cut the deficit. does that make sense to you? >> i think that is actually sort of the fatal flaw in the healthcare reform. there is no one package and a whole bunch are floating around. they focus too much on additional cover and and not enough on the cost. none of the big central issues are fee for service as opposed to fee for results. getting closer link between the person considering the service. toes are the big nasty complex issues that must get addressed if we going to slow the rate of healthcare expense growth which is in the long run but really will kill the deficit.

>> is that the reason why we need government run reform or just the opposite? >> that is probably the funniest part of this because in the idea that we have this runaway cost, their strategy is if we invest -- my favorite word, invest in prevention and other things and covering the other people that that will pierce the growing economic cycle down the road but in fact it is like the diagnosis for the wrong disease. the problem is, number one, we don't pay taxes for healthcare benefits in the united states. we are the only country in the world that would do something that crazy. it is free. people overcome consume healthcare. number two, the cost number gives away the revenues that we can fund this thing with, $250 billion a year. number three, we are not even addressing the fraud. there is five to ten percent of low hanging fraud.

a little lopsided here but one of the reasons that they say we do need this is that if we have preventive care that will save money in the long run. >> when kids grow up without any type of health insurance, the only time they get medical care is when they end up in the hospital with pneumonia or broken bones or issues that could have been prevented early on if they are getting the appropriate care. >> broken bones is a bad example, i do agree with that. >> want to put everybody at fault. >> no, no, no, but pneumonia and other ailments could be prevented if they went to doctors early on and the same thing with immoverrished people who are cancer patients there could be a lot of prevention so we are not dealing with late

term cancer in the hospital. >> the statistics say but i hate to use the math but the math is the preventive care adds cost to the system and many times you are treating new diseases that are not quite life threaten but are chronic and adds to the bill. >> are you advocating that we don't have preventive care. >> we live within our means and have a system that doesn't have the huge distortions. get rid of the huge distortions and it will pay for the probably as gary says 22 million people that are not covered. >> we are also talking about the spiraling out of control cost of healthcare. he is talking about the government's role in the spiraling costs. the private sector has a much better handle on the control of the costs. it is called competition. called more competition and whatever roles you put in place is the government's role. his failure does not substantiate the meaning. >> i have a sister who has five

children and trying to get health insurance for her family. dropped twice over the past year and the recent quote she got was $4,500 a month for her family. that is a cost that is spiraling out of control. >> if you let other companies compete for her business and make mandatory that companies provide such coverage and if a family is too poor to afford it that is why we have medicare in the first place. >> she would have to sell her house to go on medicaid. >> talk to the people on medicaid about their rules. >> i absolutely agree. >> so she is not poor and should play for her own insurance. play on my sympathies. >> the only asset they have left is a house. they sell the house, they pay $4,500 a month, they are out of a house. or keep the house. >> 153 million incomers in the united states but you can't make policy based on the fringe. you have to make it on what

works for a sustainable program and it is not saying that medicare was priced to go up 10% a year and they go up about 5% a year in the private sector. why is that? >> maybe regina's friends are part of that $10 million or $12 million. fine. take a month for crying out loud. everyone who can't get health insurance and can't afford health insurance, go to the post office and sign up. i bet there is a lot less, maybe 30 million less than the 47 million we are hearing about and roll them into medicare or medicaid or whatever. >> if medicare was such a great program to begin with, why is that having so much red ink. we are talking about expanding a nationalized medicare and that is going to help the deficit? not like medicare is running in the black right now. i don't get the argument from any perspective. >> let me give pat a second to respond, too.

pat? >> i think the core issue as ease alluded to earlier are you need to reduce overconsumption and tax a benefit that people get. i have a cadillac healthcare plan and i don't pay a darn dime for it. that that is insanity. as toby mentioned that is one way to reduce a big distortion in the system. and if people what they consumed is tied to what they actually pay they will see the cost curve bend down. >> bottom line is, a government-run healthcare plan going add it to or reduce the deficit? >> dramatically increase the deficit over the next 100 years. >> and we have 37 trillion of unfunded liability. >> they brock the bank on medicare and medicaid already. >> we need to address the uninsured. if we don't do it now. it is a political hot potato. we need to get a solution this year. >> guys, thank you very much. that does is for the trading tips this tweak.

looks like $3 billion on the clunkers wasn't enough. now, the government is ready to hand out money for appliances. everything but the kitchen sink everything but the kitchen sink or maybe the kitchen sink is

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i'm julia huddy. now, back to "bulls and bears."

are the government handouts helping or hurting the economy? >> the matily hurting. it demonstrates the economy is still on its back and struggling to get on its right spot and thirdly, it is picking winners and losers within the economy and that is not what the government's role should be. i suspect many of the people that bought the cars are just going to regret taking on the huge debt. >> regina, joe makes a good point. why not just give people the money and let them buy what they want instead of saying you have to buy a refrigerator. >> we got tax breaks and people put them in the bank or paid down the debt. this is a government program that benefits the middle class. it wasn't targeted towards the rich or low income because they

are not eligible for loans. the middle class went out and bought 700,000 cars and moved the economic growth in the third quarter and contributed so much to sales tax revenues in municipalities and states where the dealerships are. >> do you agree with that or is cash for clunkers a success story? >> a few points. one, is regina trying to say everyone above the middle class didn't take advantage of this. >> i doubt they had clunkers in their driveway. >> a lot of very wealthy people do. >> i mean it is absolutely silly. second of all, yes, it increased sales. it is like macy's having a 50% off sale. so they see an increase but people already now have the cars. i tell you what, gm and ford sales and chrysler and the rest of them, they will go back in the hole. you moved demand up because of the sale that we had there for a couple of weeks and that is

all going to go away. you know, what, though? based on what regina is saying the government saying this is a great program. i wouldn't be surprised that we see a bureau of the cash for clunkers permanent government institution because it is so great for the economy. >> and you will be the czar. >> i will be the czar. >> does this do anything for the economy besides the short-term boost in spending? >> zilch, nada and a big fat zero. i might be able to make sense of cash for clunkers if i bent over so far backwards that i could see the floor. but this, all the large appliances are made in mexico and china so it doesn't do anything for the u.s. economy except for keep a couple of jobs at home depot. >> can i expect a toaster for

christmas? >> how about cash for vacations. you know, vegas. we going to start saying that when we give americans money that we are borrowing by the way, it is not like this is excess cash. when they did it in the other parts of the world they used actual cash that they saved. i can start to rationalize that. when you are running a $1.1 trillion deficit and the money is being borrowed, we bastardized the word stimulate. a temporary vitamin boost like vitamin e. >> regina? >> the guest program targeted towards the middle class. we have given out hundreds of billions of dollars to wall street. it is about time the government is focused on something to ben at this time -- >> wait -- to benefit -- >> who do i hear last?

>> i got to give and, first of all, thanks to a bethat for coming on the program and putting up with us. you stick the message better than any one i have heard. it is like we make the arguments and you come back and state the same argument. we just said it is possibly -- >> if i say it enough you may start believing it. >> you came back and said it is a middle class program. bogs my mind. >> we appreciate your being on and being such a good sport. at the bottom of the hour, giving stimulus taxes to convicts. find out how they got it and why the cavuto gang says it proves that government can't run healthcare. but up first, what president obama just did that ronald reagan did when ♪

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ernie els encourages you to learn the signs at autismspeaks.org. president obama pulling a ronald reagan saying he will reappoint ben bernanke. helped bring an economic boom to america it obama and america repeat history? >> i tell you what -- boltering rate, cut the taxes and cut the deficit. they strengthened the dollar and worked and cut inflation. bernanke at some point has to raise rates, that will increase

inflation. the deficit already skyrocketed and, of course, taxes are being raised or at least the bush tax cuts are going to go away. cap and trade is going to be another tax. the economy is going to go the opposite way it did under regan. >> under regan there was a 7% rate of growth for five straight quarters. can we expect something like that, toby? >> we are not going get that. bernanke is the right man for the job. those of us working in the financial sector at that time, both did things that no one ever thought they would do. particularly raise the rates. remember the 15% money market accounts. he has the knowledge to do this and bernanke i think is the right guy for this. we are not going to get 7% growth in the economy today. the good thing is we have two billion new consumers throughout the world than we had in the '80ss, because of china, brazil, et cetera. bernanke is the right guy.

let's not confuse the two decades because we are a different world today. >> he was able to cut interest rates just because ronald reagan was cutting taxes? is that the difference here? >> he had evidence that inflation's back had been broken that the recession drained the expectation. he could take 2 1* 1% interest rate -- take the 11% interest rates and bring them down to 7. there was a 10% savings rate with the consumer ready to explode. two, we were underleveraged as an economy. we now have a zero percent savings rate. we have $1.20 debt for every dollar and baby boomers were 30 years younger then. we were about to have babies, spend money. >> don't remind us. >> now, we are on the other side of that. biggish. >> pat, are we going to see any kind of recovery as we did then under regan? >> we goin are going to see a

recovery. it is important to know when you think about the path to recovery. the 8/0/82 was a classic inventory relation and caused in part by the rates be something high. that was caused by simply too much debt across the economy in all levels and reduceing that debt what is called deleveraging and paying it down, it is a painful process, a slow process and takes time so you don't get the big inventory led snap back that you do in a typical recession. >> that is why we pay you guys. >> wait a minute, we're getting paid? >> speaking of ben bernanke, is any one safe from identity theft? if the fed chief can get hit, you can, too. the one stop to protect yourself and profit. and no, nothing is wrong with your tv set. you are not seeing double.

>> predictions? jeremy, you are up. >> ben bernanke, a target of identity theft. as someone who has actually been a target of identity theft, i wouldn't wish that on any one. it is horrible. who is going to benefit is companies like equi fax. i love the chart, i think it is up 20% by the end of the year. >> toby, do you love it? >> i loved it about 30% ago. >> your prediction?

>> h and r block. couldn't get out of its own way. subprime mortgages, horrible stuff. focused on the core tax business which is insanely profitable. 3.5% yield. >> the internet and competition is goglet their luncheon. >> and what is your prediction. >> hasn't happened yet. >> am i going to give my prediction or what? go ahead. >> cisco systems. they have come through the bad times and sector is leading the way out. i think the stock could be up 30% in 12 months. >> gary b., do you agree? >> i don't. it is way overbought. i would buy it on a 20% pullback which i think is going to happen. >> and your prediction? >> you think you have the ultimate prop. i have the ultimate prop, brian. citibank doubles, right? >> he is better looking than you, glow there is two of them, no! >> if i had a nickel for every