this is for people that have money. >> jamie: do you like it? >> i don't use them and i don't want to argue against warren buffett. i think medical costs is going up but it's ad pick. forbes on fox is next. 9 trillion dollars in red. white house admitting that our national deficit is likely hit over the next decade. doesn't that mean a middle-class tax hike is next. welcome to forbes on fox. let's go in fouj with our panel. jack to you first, middle-class tax hike inevitable? >> yesing it is, we're out of money we can't expect to spend money and keep up. economy continues to shrink and tax rates will go up to fund that. we look at the campaign promises

and he says he won't raise taxes on those making less than $250,000 a year. he confiscated all the income of the top 1% you would have 1.3 trillion dollars at the height of the bull market. that is not making up the short fall. >> they are looking at you and saying is hike tax coming up? >> treasury can keep borrowing and fed can keep printing money. there is no limit to the size of the fed's balance sheet. >> you are talking tongue-in-cheek, aren't you? >> no, they can ballot it as big as they want to. >> what does john rutlidge say to that? >> they can destroy the entire world's economy at the same time, too. attention middle-class, they are going to tax everything you do, what things you do, the things you own, they are going to do excise taxes, income taxes, the bottom ones and the middle-class

$10 trillion is more like than 9 or 7, they are in a tremendous fiscal mess. >> all right, clinton, what do you say you? >> i don't think we have to play class warfare, stewart. bush tax cuts didn't benefit anyone in the end are set to expire in 2010. their taxes are going up. silly war we got in iraq that affected the poor, that got us into a hole as the casino we set up on call street. it's going to hit the 'poor, middle and rich because we dug ourselves into a hole. >> when a guy talking to you has a british accent we invented class warfare. what do on you say? >> bush tax cuts weren't just for the rich. there were middle tax cuts and congressional budget office in the deficit projections are saying, look, the bush tax cuts

are going away. that is what they are saying. it's already happening now. democrats are talking about a health care payroll tax that will hit workers and taxes on cigarettes. tax hikes for people that make under $250,000 if you use a health care savings account. so what is happening right now. it's interesting when charlie wrangs will is under paying taxes, he is talking about raising his own personal taxes and tim geithner, he is the one that didn't pay with the taxes. it's extraordinary what is going on with the democrats. >> you found outrage. do you think the middle tax class hike is inevitable? >> no, it's time to stop scaring people about the deficit. okay, one thing, a ten-year deficit protection is about useful as to anyone as next month's weather forecast.

nine trillion dollars over ten years, our economy is in a depressed state has $14 trillion out put in one year. >> in ten years we're going to be over $20 trillion. we're going to grow our way out of this. >> they are taxing everything in sight. it's happening now. $9 trillion is the equivalent to nine gdp's, country's out put. >> if we did get middle-class tax heilgs hikes would it be enough? >> no, it wouldn't be enough. but i would like to address what they were saying, is federal expanding their balance sheet and de-base the dollar. that is the biggest tax hike because it reduces the value of their savings. it directly cuts their savings by whatever the dollar depreciates. cigarette, alcohol, soda, taxes are going up across the board.

it's going to continue to happen as they try to scramble to erase some of the deficit the taxpayers are realizing affects their wallet. >> you are talking a consumption tax. quintin hardy brings it into a consumption tax, if you tax what we all buy, everybody pays the tax. >> that sounds fair, doesn't it. if everybody pays, everybody in it for the same extent. >> the rich would pay a smaller amount. surely you don't like this. >> i just like everybody somewhat committed. i think the rich are blessed and should acknowledge that. they should pay more. i think mike makes the most interesting point which is how fast can our economy grow. how much productivity can we generate. we tried tax cuts for the rich. hey, it didn't work. infrastructure spending, better technology, that is what boosts

productivity. we should go with that. >> what do you say? >> quentin, they were not tax cuts for the rich, there are hundred million investors. a third of all americans have 40 ks it was a tax cut for all across the board. it wasn't just for the rich. it's shown with fund manager that has tax cuts is what stimulate growth, not oppressive tax increases. >> we ended up with deficits, game over. what do you say john? >> tax cuts on capital gains and dividends improved the values of assets owned by workers in pension fund. that is where this money goes. when you raise tax rates, growth pays a price for it. growth is the only thing that matters long term. when you raise tax rates above 50% the income that you tax evaporate orizes into thin air.

>> last word to the outraged busy let's mcdonald? >> i think john is right. i like the democrats, when they say difficulties don't remember, remember dick cheney used to say that. read my lips moment, george h.w. bush raised taxes because he was trying to be a fiscal hawk. what is going around here they are raising taxes to pay for their spending programs. >> i lied. last word. >> biggest problem is obama has raised spending to 45% of the economy. when we had bull markets and a strong economy, with clinton and bush and reagan it was between 30 and 33%. it doesn't have to happen because right now the fed and the treasury are basically one arm and obama has the printing presses going. >> imagine a simple health care

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to foxnews.com. i promised the one word fix for health care, competition. right now insurance companies cannot compete across state lines. john rutledge says change that and problem solved. how so, john? >> of course it will help, stewart. this one is a no-brainer. more competition means lower

prices, always, always and low prices is what we need the to help solve this problem. look you can't even see state lines from an airplane. why should we keep people from doing business across them. we should be able to sell everywhere we want and get prices. >> no statesman date and compete across state lines, a national insurance market, are you in favor of that? >> that is mine with me but there is a difference in the glamour here. we'll fix it all and john said it will help. it will help on the margin but it doesn't fix anything about the fundamental problem with health care. is it competition? sure, does it fix higher health costs? i doubt it. doctors will still have higher and higher expensive tests that don't do much good. and 40% of the costs will be on the last month or two of life.

that won't change. >> you shocked me there, i thought you were going to in terms of tort reform. what do you say. >> doctors' costs are going up because there is not tort reform. when you don't have tort reform and you put that right in the back here. >> competition. >> absolutely it will help. anything will help and john is absolutely right. you know what i like, too, is this idea of some democrat, russ feingold along with lindsay graham about having a pilot test in five states. they are saying just not do anything yet. there are other ways to do it and you're right, john has a good idea with competition insurance rules crossing state lines. >> is in going to help solve it? >> competition is good but we're still going to have constipation

in our system. we're not going to have much competition. the problem we have in this country we've got to separate ourselves from having our employers pay for it. this means that the consumer is not that interested in the price. we've had the price of is honoring of a family of four go up four times as quality as the rate of inflation. it costs the company about $13,000 to insure a family of four. real competition is break these companies up and buy health insurance the same way they buy car insurance. >> best way for health care is to have a truly free market. if you look at eye care, lays i can surgery, it's gone down 38% in the last ten years. more people are having it done because more people can afford it. there is no insurance for it. there is month medicare for it, free market works. >> you think it would work.

>> it would be the best thing we can do. >> and how to help these giant national insurance companies. >> so the real problems are incidental of coverage to people with preexisting conditions. >> it will bring prices down. >> coverage, can they still deny coverage with preexisting conditions? if the answer is yes -- >> what competition, the majority of americans the health insurance is through our employer. they say here it is. take it or leave it. we don't have a choice here. we're not going to have a choice. >> standard policy in kentucky for one fifth the cost you can buy in it new york state or new jersey because it's not gold plate with all the unnecessary stuff. in kentucky you get catastrophic care and basic care for one fifth of the cost. if you bring it across the state

lines it would bring down the price dramatically. >> with no statesman date. >> you need to get rid of the government regulations. >> all we have to do is that? >> what convinces that the insurers want competition. they are fat and happy right now running their defective system with their faceless bureaucrats. you talk about having a government system, screening socialism like they can't handle the competition. don't let them compete with the government, they're too efficient. >> and rationing as well, choose your poison, you want a bureaucrat deciding for you to basically cut all your coverage. we have to address this, the real issue is medicare. costs are skyrocketing. it was not built to handle the costs of mris, c.a.t. scans and all the what we're seeing.

that is the real issue. those technologies are driving it up. >> is competition literally a one word fix? >> competition is a one word fix if you include the competition that neil was talking about and allow individuals to seal the costs of procedures so they can shop for lower prices. nobody likes competitors come into their markets. they want to attack other guys' markets and that will push prices down. >> you are talking about a huge revolution. huge change in the structure. >> rip this away from employer, job attached health care. nobody wants that. unions don't want that. insurance company lobbyists won't do it so congress won't do it. >> on that note, here is another question. if you hear the health care bill

would give them billions, but first, here on forbes.... ♪ dixie chicks knows what it's about. and speaking out about the health care plan, too. should they butt out of politics? to be a good father is the most important job in a man's life, but it doesn't have to be hard. play catch, go to a park, or visit a zoo. help your child with their homework. sit down together for dinner. ask them how their day was. things get busy, and sometimes we all fall short, but the smallest moments can have the biggest impact

on a child's life. take time to be a dad today.

do you remember that. a dixie chick said she was ashamed of president bush. soon after the popular female group from hot to hated. many boycotted them and some sponsors cropped them. its lesson from hall foods did not learn. he is dealing with a critical oped. some are saying good. >> dixie chicks, when i invest in a company like whole foods, i want that executive to be focused on one thing, maximizing shareholder value. if he wants to go into politics, let him run for mayor or let him do something else. but he needs to keep his mouth

shut. >> can he contribute to the ongoing health care debate? >> i love these outspoken ceos. whole foods has beaten the market over the past year. by the way, easy on the dixie chicks, they made $18 million last year. come on. >> as a citizen he has the right to freedom of speech, but as ceo number one responsibility is to the shareholder. he said we have no position on health care and people are still associating the product with the ceo, not to have the boycott and bottom line it's bad for business. >> by the way, coming up on cash go in, why you should not or should buy whole food stock. but people disagree with the obama's health care plan. >> i think this is evolving nicely. he got in trouble for slamming on anonymous loggers anonymously. now he is saying what he thinks. if people want to boycott on

that, its free marketplace of ideas. i wouldn't deny anyone their democratic right to speak their mind. >> jack, what do you think? >> my view of some, there is a reason he didn't mix with politicians because he was too busy printing money. if you are ceo of a company you have to be concerned with competing and outgoing your competition, not without trying to out smart them. stick to your business, take care of shareholders. that is a ceo's job. >> i'm surprised to hear you say that. >> look when you are running a business, your first responsibility is to shareholders. your personal rights i can avail himself on your own time but you need run the business. >> jack. >> he never met my wife bridgette who exclusively shops at whole foods but the food is darn good.

>> a lot of consumers are saying we don't agree with what he is saying. we are going to say no to whole foods but quenton doesn't hold the stock as a shareholder he would be worried about a loud mouth ceo. >> quenton, it looks like they are eating their own. if you walk into a whole food supermarket, that is obama-rama, voters wall to wall and they are boycotting their own store. you can't approve of that? >> i think obama was elected by a majority in this country, that is quite a range of people. now, jack, two things. bad writer, don't take cues from her and you are placing money before a democratic right to speak your mind and that is wrong. >> i wish we weren't out of time but we are. uncle sam planning to put a freeze on hike in social

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worried that social security won't be enough to retire on? uncle sam is not expected to hike social security payments for the first time in four years. tie it to their stocks. >> the cash for clunkers it was

a big winner and that is indicative of the fact they make cars that people want. >> what do you say to toyota? >> a great car company but i don't like keeping my money in rolling stocks. i would rather own sat oil in norway. 3% dividend and they have selling for 22, a great company. >> jack, your criticism. >> $22 doesn't sound like enough. it's the word of the state in norway so i think i you would be better off looking at the u.s. companies. >> i like the drug company, in filtration equipment. they acquired a small biotech company. >> millipore? >> the stock is 30% year to