outperformed individual commodity picks. neil: are you worried about inflation? >> yeah, but next year. >> well, right now, thousands of tea party protestors are gathering to march on our nation's capital. maybe that's why president obama is heading to minnesota today to pump his $900 billion health plan. steve forbes says they should all be home watching this show right now to hear his solution for healthcare. it's simple and even better. it won't cost a dime! welcome to "forbes on fox." here is neil weinberg, elizabeth mcdonald and mike miello and quentin hardy. steve, what picks do you have that the tea party would love? >> that is what the consumers make the choice on healthcare

insurance by shopping around the country so they make a price that's appealing to you. >> what's stopping them from doing it now? >> because right now the system is designed if you get a savings, let's say you take a drug that is cheaper than the prescription, you don't get the savings. the bureaucrat gets it, the company gets. the consumer if they shopped smartly they get the savings and productivity. >> sounds good. what do you think of steve's plan? >> it is great but it won't work and here's why, because there is price fixing going on state by state between doctors, hospitals, insurers an drug companies. why is that happening? because the states have a lock on which insurance companies can operate in their own states and local politicians get a lot of money from the insurance lobby, and then the president didn't mention this problem and that is how you deregulate the state's lock hold on the market, on the health market, so how do you do that? make it like the auto insurer's market? price fixing cases are brought from texas to california, and until you get serious about it,

you won't have competition. >> will the forbes' plan work? >> it will work. when you go to get a car or groceries, you care about the price. when you go to a doctor, you ask, well, gee, how much is it going to cost me? it is insane. it is the one sort of service that we don't worry about price. >> but we should. >> we should. it would discipline the market. >> mike, what do you think of the forbes man? >> when you go to buy a car, you're not in pain. if i injure myself doing one of my myriad tasks at the gym. i want the doctor to fix me. i don't want to haggle about price. this is ridiculous. it is shopping under duress and it won't work. >> what do you think of the forbes plan? >> i think steve was listening to the president wednesday and they make a lot of sense. the president talked about introducing government compensation in addition to all the insurance companies. what nobody is addressing here is the coupling with employment. why is it tied to employment in this country? that's why you don't get the transparency.

people don't see what they're paying. >> so the individuals should be in charge, both quentin and steve agree on that? >> not really. what obama is taxpayer subsidized government plan. that's not any form of competition that. will crowd out the private sector. what you want to do is get the government out of health insurance equal together. if you look at eye surgery, david, that is one area where care has improved and more people can afford t why? there is no government health insurance for t. >> what about mike's point that when i'm sitting on an praitsding table, i don't have time. i just want what i can get fast, quick, to cure the p problem. >> well, that's why when you shop for health insurance, the health insurers when they know they have to sell to you, not your employer, are going to say we're going to have a network of doctors that are going to give you a good price, and they will have doctors knowing that they have to appeal to the patient. they will have metrics out there, measurements out there to show that this hospital, this chinnic will give you better value, give you better outcomes. when you go to a hospital, do

you have any idea what the outcome is for various kinds of surgery? >> it is all about preparation, if you prepare beforehand, then you're sure you can get the best price once the emergency occurs. >> so they will throw data at you and you as a layman have to make a decision. you see how well that works when people pick mutual funds, losing 50% of your assets in one year, we put the exact same problems of people dealing with wall street now dealing with their healthcare providers. >> the republicans are talking about deregulating the insurance market where you can buy insurance across state lines. the democrats are ignoring that as an important issue. until you stop that stranglehold on the insurance market, you won't have true competition. >> quentin, go ahead. >> they're not ignoring it. obama mentioned alabama in his speech. the american enterprise institute ranked it as the most deregulated insurance market in america. >> if you live in alabama, you can buy a better insurance

package from new york. you can't do that now. >> the inshoo shiewrn market -- the insurance market is terrible in alabama. >> how much do you think your plan can save the american consumeer? >> it's not just saving hundreds of billions of dollars, it will also give you more for less. mike cited the lasik surgery for the eye. another example, cosmetic surgery. that demand has increased six foaldz in 15 years no, kind of medical inflation that we have elsewhere, when the consumer is in charge, good things happen. by the way, with the federal government, washington d.c. doesn't say what plans you have. 230 insurance companies bid for the plan and you have competition. >> can you imagine the sticker shock. you have tea protestors saying keep the government out of my medicare. what are individuals going to be like when they find out this is actually costing their employers and them themselves when they

actually see the price? >> every place obama-care has been tried, it is a catastrophe, whether it's in massachusetts, he has instituted some parts of romney's plan. the cost has exsploased, choice has gone down and there is rationing. we don't want that in our country r. >> >> i don't think it is a partisan issue of whether we can have more or less government involve, but there are two ways to do it. you talk about mike's problem, namely, gu into an emergency room and need care, well, your insurer can negotiate that for you. you have a competitive market for the insureds. >> when come sumers are in control, they do discipline the market. >> you don't have a nationalized health insurance market like automobile insurance. do you want that kind of market, that's the question. >> i think the actual aerial comparisons are complex. i'm not sure that most people have the desire or even ability to measure them. >> steve? >> my goodness, we're allowed to

choose the food we eat, the people we player i are, where we work and all these other choices, and & you are saying you are too stupid to pick out the plan that meets your needs? >> if the alternative is big brother, no thanks. imagine if you are on healthcare like the progressive ads where you can comparison shop for the type of healthcare you want. that would have a huge influence of bringing costs down. >> mike, when you see quentin and steve agreeing on something, you got to open your eyes, right? >> i see many lawsuits on the horizon. >> quentin, what about the lawsuits? >> you know, redress happens even in auto repairs and house paintings. someone overcharges you because you want to get it fixed now, you can get that in a court of dispute and get it fixed. >> put the consumer in charge. it sounds good to me. coming up next, we just found out how many billions all the

taxpayers are about to lose from auto bailouts so why is someone at forbes saying that is great news for taxpayers and our job market? we'll find out. plus, how that tea party brewing down in d.c. can brew us some major profits. (woman) dear cat. your hair mixes with pollen and dust. i get congested. but now with zyrtec-d®, i have the proven allergy relief of zyrtec®, plus a powerful decongestant. zyrtec-d® lets me breathe freer, so i can love the air™. (announcer) zyrtec-d®. behind the pharmacy counter. no prescription needed.

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obama for slapping tariffs on chinese tires, beijing calling it an act of protectionism and a violation of global trade protocol. president obama agreed to the tariffs after the international trade commission said cheap chinese tires hurting the u.s. tire industry, and saying that tires from china cost jobs, and a massive rally is underway in the nation's capital, thousands are gathering to protest big government and high taxes. from all over the country they arrived, including members of the tea party express, and join fox new's glenn beck for his september 12 project, another reason to keep it on fox today. he has a special two-hour live show, only on the fox news channel, 1:00 p.m. eastern. i'm jamie colby. keep it on fox. >> american taxpayers will likely lose tens of billions in the auto bailout but that's the

latest from the congressional oversight office. jack says that's great. you got to explain. >> look, the way i see it, the only way we're going to recoup money we lent and gave to detroit is if we cut down on the regulations that are choking these companies, and it was a failure for the obama administration to double down after that. this is something that is going to take a long time to fix or we can cut our losses now and get government's hand out of the till and learn a valuable lesson that this kind of government intervention does not work. >> is this going to be a great object lesson, steve? >> no, because government doesn't learn, otherwise we wouldn't have fannie, freddie and medicare and penn central in the '70's when the government took over conrail, and they had to lose a ton of money before they realized get it back in the private sector and deregulate the railroad industry. they are slow at learning. you think our students have a hard time. in washington, they never learn. it takes decade.

welfare reform, it took 60 years to get that. >> steve, do you agree with him on this one? >> i try. it is like the military. is that a good expenditure. they keep blowing up all their toys and leaving dead bodies around but you got to consider the alternative. when the bush administration spent all this money -- jack, you're a young man. maybe you don't remember last november, but the world was spinning out of control. the banks were failing. people were running for the exits. they shored these companies up because what would it have meant if we went away. would it cost more than the $23 billion they're going to lose sni think the damage would have been far greater. >> look at what is going on with the potential downgrading of the u.s. debt. it costs more to buy protection on u.s. debt than to buy protection on mcdonald's debt. the issue is how do you get these companies profitable? i don't know about jack's idea. the problem is no strings attached money from tarp to these companies. the u.a.w. has preferential treatment over bondholders.

will the bond holiers ever lend to these companies again so they can become profitable? probably not. those are the real questions that need to be addressed. >> so, rich, could losing all these billions ever be good for the auto industry? >> well, look, i agree with jack, but it's kind of a bank shot argument that i'm making and that is that failures like these will -- congress may not learn. the obama administration may not learn, as steve says, but the american people are starting to learn what can go wrong with this administration. this is an example. i think the rally is the political center. >> so, neil, the american people will learn and maybe change their voting habits on this? >> i don't think so. i think the american people knew it was throwing money down the rathole. it was the least bad choice at the time, because the economy was spinning out of control. i don't think there is anything good here. we have invested in these auto companies. we're not going to learn a lesson. government is not going to change its behavior and our money is gone.

>> the government gave wall street money and told them how much to pay executives and gave detroit money and told them they had to make fiats. if he we can get them to make profitable cars like hummers, that's a way they can gain help getting to the consumer what they want. >> how do you get the union out of the way to make them profitable? jack has a good point. how do you get them profitable so the taxpayers get their money back. they would have to have a $67 billion market cap on gaap. it was only $57 billion at the height of its earnings power. >> quentin has a point. say in december they have to do something because the old economy was spinning out of control and the new administration took office in january and they could say the crisis is in hand. let them go into chapter 11 hike major airlines have done, except for american, has gone into chapter 11, reorganized, and is competitive again. why couldn't they do that with chrysler and g.m., ands as liz

says, don't shun the bondholders so they will lend to them again. >> jack brought up this great point of cafe standards. you know, people love american trucks. they love american, you know, recreational vehicles and that sorts of big things, and why not let our automobile manufacturers con sen tate on what they do best, where they get their margins. the market cap will rise to the points where elizabeth talked about, an all will be better, but you know, fiats an electric cars are not the route out for detroit. >> don't you think that politicians have their mitts inside of these companies that it will be troubling to pry the mitts lose? >> they good their mitts into these companies and then gave it to the u.a.w., the union members. that's the real problem, prying it from their control so the companies are allowed to advance and recover. >> i woulding agree. let's face t the unions control

these companies and their interests are not the interests of making money. they are worried about pension funds and their power. those are not the interests are of the owners whether it is government or private shareholders. >> the bottom line is the government shouldn't have been going in and the problem is he they don't learn and they're going to be reluctant to give these companies up. it took a decade with conrail before we got deregulation of the railroads. >> if the government had not gotten involved at all bhark would have happened to these companies? >> well, you have to make the distinction between the auto companies and the banks. the banks are the heart of the economy. you had to get them through the storm. the auto companies if they went into chapter 11, put aside december, if they would have gone in in january it would have had no sizable impact on our economy. >> steve rattner, the car czar, he has said -- >> former car czar. >> thank you for that, that's right. he has said, look, our priority here is to get the government out of these businesses, not so much pay back the taxpayer but

to get the government out. is that the right priority? >> g.m. had 300,000 blue collar workers in the early '70's, and after this, it will be 37,000. all this money spent for what? >> up next, the other bill making its way through congress that could cost you more gene than healthcare? and who needs mandatory health insurance, just make it man tore mandatory for the uninsured to pay their own medical bills. tough medicine at the bottom of the hour.

>> so what bill in congress will burn a hole through your wallet faster and deeper than healthcare? the global warming bill. rich, how so? >> well, first my condolences to all of you who live on the east coast. i know you didn't have much of a summer. it was very cold. nevertheless, we're pursuing this global warming folly. what the climate bill does is raise the cost of doing business in the united states, because you can't have an economy without energy and the cost of energy is going up because of taxes on coal, natural gas, et cetera. >> so, steve, this global warming bill will end up costing more than healthcare, according to itch are. >> that's why it is will have a hard time passing. if it does pass, it will be repealed. healthcare they promise something for nothing. on this bill, you will notice that your gasoline is now $2 a gallon, will go up to $5, and your electricity bill will go up 5 to to 100%. you can repeal those things faster than when the government

takes over healthcare. >> so you can reverse the global warming thing. healthcare will be a tough one to reverse if when you go in. >> that's true, but if you are a high income earner, the healthcare bill will kill you because your taxes will go way up. cap and trade is a regressive tax. it will raise gasoline prices an energy prices. that will hurt low-income earns much more. >> so it is regressive, hurting the low end of the scale more than the top end? >> that's the point. healthcare will cost a trillion dollars over the first ten years. the energy reform bill will cost $2 trillion over eight years. they have big sticker prices. the healthcare bill has a the wrecking ball effect in the out years as we get 10, 12, 14 years out t will be impossible to repeal once it gets in. the energy tax will hurt people on the low side of the income specter and for people trying to do business in the united states, healthcare will hurt

people trying to live in the united states. >> look, the healthcare bill, at the very least, with all my problems, but it extends medicaid to more of the working poor and gives subsidies to more of the uninsured. >> we don't know what it is actually going to be, but it might. >> this is a tax on the very people, so they get in on the healthcare system and then they get a disproportionate increase in their gas. they can't trade in their car for a hybrid because they don't make enough money. it is a regressive tax. >> i can't get behind t. >> rich, go ahead. >> it is worse than that, because if you raise the cost of doing business in the united states, you're only going to accelerate the outsourcing of these kind of blue collar jobs to countries that don't embrace this folly, so, you know, you got taxes an you've got the loss of jobs. we've got a jobs crisis in the country right now. >> steve, what worries me about cap an trade is that there are going to be some powerful people like al gore who he and his buddies could make a fortune out of this, so it might be ingained in our capital system as well as

costing a lot of people. >> al gore is a master at that, and in more ways than one, but the bottom line is just because this bill is going to raise energy so much, it is already in political trouble. people understand they're not going to increase the output of energy, you will increase my energy, my fuel, cost more to transport goods. that's why it barely got through the house. >> what happens to our economy if both of these things are agreed upon? how can we afford it? >> we can't. we can't afford to do one let alone both. the best news about the energy bill is that it is shepherded through congress by henry waxman, possibly the most desperate congressman there. this thing has a lot of problems with it. i think healthcare is a bigger thet. >> jack's numbers are great but i believe president obama. all this tremendous spending isn't going to cost us anything! >> tea partiers prohe testing wasteful spending in d.c.

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>> well, those tea partiers marching in d.c. hate westful spending but love the companies that don't waste money while making investors big money. dollar stores, one of the fastest retail chains growing, renovated 50% of its stores has

great cash flow and is now accepting food stamps. >> 6,000 stores nationwide. >> the discounters had a good recession run. >> you have a fun that includes a lot of defense stocks. >> the dow jones usair row space defense index and it is for the tea partiers because it is the one bit of pork that never gets cut. >> i'm surprised you like defense. this is not the time to buy defense when we're winding down two wars. cohen an steers, the guys running the real estate business, two of the smartest, will benefit. cns. >> they have treated shareholders so bad over the last three years. they have pocketed $14 million to the top two guys. >> ball corp., has managed their expenses, profits are way up. margins are exploding. >> you like companies, jack that make real thing like packaging. >> mostly they make soda and