pork barrel one, get on fox and friends.com. on the after show show, we'll give you a tour of this rock star bus at 7 a.m. thanks for having us. >> we have a lot on the after show show about spanking. join us now. to push that new $healthcare plan and they say it will drive down everyone's medical costs. critics say it will drive up your taxes. who has got it right? hi, everyone, this is "bulls & bears." let's get right to it. welcome to everybody. so, gary b, you found some middle class tax hikes in this plan? >> no, i did not.

there are trax gouges. if a person has to go out and buy the government-mandated insurance: let's say you just graduated from college and make $26,000 a year, so you have to pay 14% of your income. let's say you graduate with a master's, 15%. family of four, you make $54,000, 18% of your income! that's in addition to all the other taxes, cap and trade and all that stuff. you might as well hand your paycheck over to the government. >> do you agree? >> not at all. there is nothing to suggest that the middle class will pay any taxes on it, one, and two, if they did, it would be political suicide because anyone who supported it in congress would not get re-elected. look at baucus bill and the congressional budget office says it will cover 94% of costs and

lessen the deficit over time. >> those things conveniently go into effect after the next presidential election. toby, she says there is no middle class tax cuts. >> if you get a health healthcare plan from your employer and you pay a $5 co-pay, you have never seen your bill. this is finally saying there is no free lunch, if we have everybody participate, everybody has to pay. you know the reason why? because they were going to try to tax all the rich guys and they looked at the tax receipts this year and there is a lot less rich guys. they can't go after the top 1% anymore, so they have to get you to actually pay for it. our healthcare system is like going to a restaurant and having no price onto menu. people are seeing what it really costs, it will scare the holy heck out of them. >> millions of americans will not be able to pay if gary's numbers are correct. >> not only that, look at the $856 billion. that will come from $507 billion

in spending cuts. of that, $406 billion is going to come from cuts in medicaid. now, that means the seniors on medicaid right now, the benefits are going to go down or they're going to get taxed more. >> on the taxes. >> this is never going to fly. by the way, down the road, these are automatic medicaid cuts that have to be approved by congress. there is no congress in the world that's going to use medicare and medicaid. >> rob, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that they're going to be taxing insurance companies with so-called high-dollar health plans. even democrats, however, are saying that the income limits on that are just way too low. >> well, that's the part where i see the tax. i don't know necessarily if i agree it on the middle class. if anything, it is in black and white that it is the higher wage earners but you're right. >> a lot of the workers, unionized workers, frankly, have

these kind of plans and they are the ones who would be hit. yes, but i think it's more targeted and i guess they call it the cadillac tax for the people who are getting these really wonderful benefits from their medical insurance. what are you going to do? i hear you. it does look like it is a tax. i do see that it is climbing uphill and keeps climbing, but is it going to cost more money? they won't be able to bring it down by cutting benefits. what is the solution? i hear it is a tax, i hear you, but what else are they going to do? >> how about cutting costs up front, taking fraud out and including tort reform. >> they're offering to do that. you don't like that. >> senator smith, that's not on the table right now. we're talking about the baucus bill right now. the problem is mandatory coverage, because in order to have everybody sign up, either

you need a lot of subsidies or a big stick and that comes with the penalties. >> right. and we're living with that here in massachusetts where 94% are covered. who who is going to pay is pharma and health insurance companies. >> you don't think that that will be tacked on for consumers? >> all of congress and a third of the senate is up for re-election in 2010. those people will pay the price. medicare part d is going to be cut. that's where you're going to see some of these savings. >> gary, back to tax hikes. you heard marianne say that the middle class is not getting squeezed and rob says these will not be passed along to consumers. >> i don't see how it can. objectively, either you don't have insurance and you have to buy this government-mandated insurance. i told you the fees there. or you say screw it, i'm not going to buy insurance, you got

to pay a $3,800 penalty or you work for someone who gives you employer-mandated insurance, and by the way, those show up on your w-2 at a minimum and you get taxed so i don't see how this is no middle class tax. maybe that is from the obama talking point thing, but looking at the numbers, there are taxes all over the place. >> looking at the massachusetts issue, people have made a scientific analysis in their checkbook and they finally figured out if they paid the fine, they with better off paying the fine in massachusetts and then when they knew healthcare was coming up, they would sign up. those people who signed up had 28% -- excuse me, 280% more cost and expenses. >> marianne, go ahead. >> does the fact that we are all paying for people who don't have healthcare insurance. we're paying when they go to the

emergency room and for illegal aliens. when you get people on these programs, as they have here in massachusetts, you end up paying less in the long run f we don't address this, this is going to go through the roof. >> this is the argument that if we don't do something now because healthcare costs are going up, then what? >> here is the bottom line, $22 -- 22 million, 36 million, 44 million more people into the system, people will be forced to buy this stuff and then what is going to happen? government will subsidize it. where is the government going to get the money to subsidize all these people who can't afford healthcare now? they have to raise new class taxes. >> eric, these people are getting healthcare some way, somehow anyway. they're in the system. it is not like they will be suddenly added to the system. all we're talking about now is how we allocate the expenses of it. >> and do you think the government is the best allocator of the expenses, rob? >> no, i'm not saying the

government is the best allocator of the expenses. i'm trying to tell what you is really going on, and then we can come up with a solution. >> ok. all right. hey, it turns out that all the town hallers ante partiers aren't the only ones worried. the big government plans could bankrupt america. wait until you see a shocking new poll and what life would look like if the unthinkable happened.

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are more than words here. it's personal. i have diabetes. rodney's kid too.

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ordering state agencies to put a hold on contracts with the community-based group, the move coming after this video came out in which acorn employees in brooklyn were showing a couple to apply for loans and lie about their profession. the group has received $1.8 million at least since 2003. for all the latest headlines, go to foxnews.com. >> get, this a stunning new poll revealing that most of us agree with a big warning from those tea party and town hall protestors. nearly two out of three americans think our country could, indeed, go bankrupt. now, toby, if they're right, it won't be pretty when the most prosperous and free nation ever goes broke. >> well, it wouldn't. let's forget about the details. if you can't pay your bills, you're bankrupt. our income is down 25%. it and we're adding all this

debt on. inflation goes like whacko because the dollar drops like crazy. now you have $150 oil. eric is richer than he ever is before and gold goes up to $3,000 and gasoline goes to $5 which makes the economy worse and you get in an ever-spiraling downward loop. that's what happens if you can't pay your bills and we're getting close. >> that's what happened in argentina, which did go broke, as the poverty rate went up to 60. inflation was at 40%. you couldn't get money out of the bank. is that what would happen to us? >> absolutely. look, the dollar would be almost worthless. here is the other problem. a lot of countries can eventually get out of that cycle if they manufacture something, if they at least have something to sell. we have evolved, i think for the good into an exmental society. what are we going to say, we have a lot of lawyers that can

sue people in your country? i see it as a real problem. >> well, we have to learn to speak chinese if this happens. >> i don't agree totally with what he is saying f it ever happened, the one you have to watch out for is china, because they will outmanufacture us and outsell us and call in our debt f they did that, it would make the last year look like a walk in the park and that would be a disaster for this country. >> eric, do you agree? >> unfortunately, the definition of bankrupt and financial insolvency is $11.8 trillion and exploding debt sound like to you? she is 100% right. china holds $1.5 trillion of our currency and $8 1/2 billion of our securities. if they pull the plug, it is lights out. they are buying oil. they are making deals with chavez and ahmadinejad. they hold all the cards right now. >> rob, what do you think of this? >> guys, you're scaring

everybody here. you know who we owe our debt to? ourselves. we are the largest owners of our own debt. our social security system, pension funds, retirement funds, china and japan are way down there at four, five, six. >> remember, we own $4.2 trillion of our debt but we've already spent that money. it went into social security and medicare. the cow has already left the barn! >> toby, i agree, but we would be defaulting to ourselves. you're right, it would be a problem. it would be a major problem for the economy, but sometimes bankruptcy for many companies, i mean, you can name a handful of the airline companies that have come back from bankruptcies is not necessarily a bad thing. i'm not saying it would be a good thing, but keep in mind, owe it to ourselfves more than the rest of the world. >> how about the $37 trillion that we have already promised in medicare and social security that we have already promised. we just haven't funded it yet? if we couldn't fund it, one of

the ways to solve these problems is cut medicare benefits 80%. that would get us out of hole. >> how long would it take, eric? >> probably what would happen is we would default on our assets, and china could come in or whoever is holding our debts and come in and take the new jersey turnpike. that looks good. >> they can have it if they want it! i drive it every day! >> i have no idea. it is a scary thought. it is obviously extreme but they do hold all the cards. >> even if we don't go bankrupt, we could be -- if you keep printing money basically the price of borrowing goes up. we could have hyperinflation. >> i honestly -- i hear what rob is saying. we're scaring everyone. i don't see how you can't scare everyone. you add in the social security, the medicare and just our regular debt that we owe, you know, and i tell you what, we can't borrow from ourselves anymore, because people can't

even pay their mortgages now. we can't keep going to foreign countries. the only place is for the fed looking at hyperinflation. i don't see a way around it unless we cut spending, and boy, this administration is certainly going the opposite way on that. and the three presidents before obama did it, too. how do you erase or reduce those deficits? bill clinton did a good job doing that and generating a surplus. >> that was better than the internet bubble, which was fantastic! >> thank you, marianne. it is nice to have you. >> the president promising healthcare reform won't bankrupt it because we will pay with it with something washington has never been able to before. find out on cavuto. take a 60-day joy ride and get

your money back. sounds good, but it is g.m.'s new offer to buyers a clunker of a deal for taxpayers?

>>. >> bailed out g.m. is rolling out a 60-damon nyback guarantee this week. bring the car back, no questions asked. sounds good but eric says it is a clunker of a deal for us taxpayers. >> if we didn't give them $50 billion, it would be laughable.

ed whitaker says we're putting our money where our mouth is. ed, it's our money where your mouth is! these guys are idiots. we will never see a penny of that money back. >> but if it's good business, then it's good for us taxpayers, huh? >> i don't think eric would have this problem if it was another car company. there is only two sides to this equation. they lose money if people return the cars after 60 days. that's probably going to be just a very small percentage. people aren't going to go through that, and b, g.m. wins if more people come into the dealership and take cars that they otherwise wouldn't have. i think it's a good deal. i applaud them for at least trying something. >> toby, actually similar programs in other countries, about a 2 to 3% return rate, an bob lutz of g.m. says it's going to be about that, too. >> here's where we're at, to use your urban lingo, man. we're in a situation now where we're never going to get our

money back. the only thing we can do is get enough taxes from their employees, enough sales tax to put a dash in the $80 billion they owe us. this won't work. >> i don't see ford doing this, because they don't have the government behind them. they can't afford to. >> right. i think anything g.m. is doing is a bad idea. they have proven they can't run an auto company. i would like them to take the money and give it back to us and away. >> when you take a car off the showroom, don't you lose 20% of the value? >> that's about right. you know that people are not going to -- first of all, they have to pay for tax, title and insurance and all that. that's hidden in the details.

people aren't going to take a corvette off the lot to go through that hassle of buying a new car to bring it back. >> ok, guys. so, nancy pelosi tearing up when saying that the tea party and town hall protestors scare her. only the b. and b. gang can find a stock that goes up on that one. and you've seen the acorn video, of course. now meet our own pimp who shows you how to get off from interest. i promise.

>> predictions! gary. >> can i be bearish just a little bit longer? i'm getting smashed! i think the dow will go to 10,000. i think we're way too overbought. i think it will pull back at

that time. by dsd, -- buy dxd. >> what do you like? >> what do you think about it? >> gary will be right on his bearishness in about a year and a half. >> rob, your prediction? >> i like fedex. fedex kin cos. i think with all the printing going on right now because the healthcare bill is so huge, kinkos is going to be very busy. i think we will have a surprise to the upside on the holiday christmas season. >> toby? >> he is calling for almost 10% up, brenda! that's exciting. now i'm thrilled. >> i wrote down one word "easily ." >> pelosi with the eyebrow and the mascara, all i know is that avon products, according to my

people make the best stuff. she better man up and learn about mascara because life is not going to get easier. it will be up by the time she cries on t.v. again. >> gary, what do you think of that? >> i like it. it is a company that fits the times we're in. >> and you love that mascara, too, right? >> i do. >> our mystery guest. >> xhb, i think home buying is on the upswing. >> listen, huggie bear! it's already been up 50%. i think you're late to the party . >> we have hit a new low once again with the polling indicator.