ripping people off. so where do we make up the difference? we make it up by adding taxes on to various things and assume that we are going to have these costs under control. what will happen is like medicare. we thought it would be $8 billion and it turned out to be $2 trillion. we are probably a trillion dollars out of line without the other things that are so stupid. brenda: lots of amendments, mark. hard to seeastern mate how much but if you -- >> you could just make it up

like toby said. why not a jillian? brenda: how do we mate this? >> absolutely we can afford it. i'm not one on the left that says this is free or will make us a ton of money. i disagree. it will cost something. but it will be manageable. some of it will be from efficien efficiency. but we can get a slight tax hike, from reassessing things and reorganizing things and pay for this. brenda: gary b -- >> not everyone pays taxes but the wealthiest 5%. brenda: gary b, reassessing and reorganizing is where mark says we are getting it. >> all that $200 billion in fraud savings that we should have been saving before but we will wait for the new baucus plan to clean up that. here is what i don't understand.

you have an example right here in the u.s., three states are doing it -- tennessee, massachusetts and one other -- use massachusetts as an example and see what has happened there. they already have rationing, wait times have doubled in a lot of specialties like ob-gyn. there are 30% overbudget. they are raising taxes across the board on alcohol, tobacco and things like that. premiums are rising 30% faster than the national average. so, mark, if these are anning of the great things that will happen with nationalized healthcare i wasn't wait. -- i can't wait. >> you are missing a lot of things or you are avoiding certain things. rationing happens already. people say we will have rationing with the public option. how do the insurance companies ration now? there are problems with the local examples. when we move to a national scale

we can install mechanisms for competition -- >> it will get better on that? you have to be kidding me. >> you keep saying wait times get longerment if you add 30 million it will get longer. >> in massachusetts they say they like the plan less than what they had before. people in massachusetts don't like it. >> again massachusetts is not a microcosm of the united states. it is not a microcosm. brenda: it is better than just saying let's do this and try it on the national scale to look at some place. >> yes. and take lessons. brenda: pat, didn't mark put his finger on it when he said most of this is about insuring people who are uninsured and that cannot save costs. >> he put his finger in it, i can tell you that. ieshgs name not going to touch that.

this has been my issue with the debate on reform is putting coverage first and cost savings second and i think it has to be cost savings first and coverage second because the current system is not tenable. we are on a trajectory that will eventually bankrupt the country and until we are serious about saving cost which means tort reform and connecting those consumers with paying the resource. we have talked about that before. until we address some of the fundamental structural issues which are just getting glossed over, nothing is changing. brenda: and it is amendment c-6 offered by nor rockefeller next week it is basically government run healthcare. and the price tag on that, that is one of the amendments. >> you knew it was coming. you were not sure when. one of these guys would stand up and say this is what we have wanted, that government option and they have got it and it will come in that you senator schumer and rockefeller's amendment.

tobacco-in you say one trillion, i say like a triple from the $856 billion. and mark, of the government programs of the things that government runs like amtrak, massively losing money, the post office, $7 billion in debt or like the d.m.v. can you imagine waiting in line and somebody like the d.m.v. decides when, next -- no, i have to go to lunch, whenner bleeding of >> can you imagine what is like to not have access to the linement >> who doesn't have access? everyone has access. >> that is not true. >> who doesn't? >> they have access to emergency rooms but if you need cancer treatment you can't walk p. some people with coverage can't get treatment. brenda: does it not matter how much it costs? that is what we are talking about. >> not only does it matter what it costs but the idea of taking an inefficient system and

putting more money into it which is getting a bigger nevineffici system you are taking god capital and putting it in places that is inever and that brings all of our standard of living down. >> that is why a public option is essential. without that we don't change the fundamental system. >> but the public option to be worthwhile will take the medicare, all the cost controls and throw it on this group and what 42% of doctors said if you take this public plan and make me take it i won't accept those patients. >> because they will cut the payments to the doctors. forget it. you want fewer people on the medical plan than you have now. brenda: i want to let gary b in because we are talking about these amendments and it is a health care explosion. we don't know how much this will cost. one amendment that was passed originally thought to be budget neutral then the c.b.o. said it will cost $600 million. you add that on to the 500 that are considered and we have a

huge price tag. >> exactly, brenda. this is -- this will be not only what is starting out as, you know, $800 billion which we know will be 10 times more because of the examples that were given -- wait a second. will you let me finish, mark? just like medicare was expected to be and now 10 times costing more and the other thing is that just like the stimulus package was pork laden there will be loopholes and things in there. the other thing, you keep coming back to the people that are not insured. i will even give you that. what do we have when we take out the people that are in transition, college students that don't want health insura e insurance, maybe, maybe we have what, 10 million people uninsured? and we are going to put a $1 trillion healthcare package on top of that for 10 million people? >> we have agreed the system

doesn't work. this not just about ensuring that 30 million people don't have coverage. it is fixing a system that doesn't work. >> and having the government fix it because they are the best fixers in the worldment brenda: i said last word. listen to me. i think this is the senate or something. you think hiking taxes and cutting benefits is bad? wait until you hear what else was found in the healthcare bill. first, capital inch under attack. ugly protests.

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or visit a td ameritrade branch. next news break in about 30 minutes. brenda: capitalism under attack, protests against our money-making ways sparking violence in an economic summit at pittsburgh while at the u. this. america's enemies had god time ripping our way of live. gary b, you said we asked for this? >> absolutely. here is the problem. it starts right with our commander in chief. i maintain that obama is the

most anti-capitalistic, antibusiness president we have ever had. such is my gut. . i pulled out some little tidb s tidbits. three weeks after he took office he said only government has the resources to jolt our economy. he thinks the government can teach the private sector lessons in efficiency. remember when he said the doctors that ordered up extra tests for patients have a businessmen tallity as if that is a bad thing. remember, he said the people that wanted their money out of chrysler were the speculators and they refused to sacrifice. at the bottom line, you look through his cabinet, he doesn't have one person in his cabinet who has ever hired or fired workers, who is an entrepreneur, that is a business person. they are academic and politicians who understand nothing about business and they hate business to be quite frankly. brenda: mark, gary b is saying the president shouldn't be apologizing for america's way of

life but you think there -- >> i don't think he is poll synchronization. i think he is making an observation and people can see you don't need president obama to see global capitalism is having problems. you don't have to look at a press conference to know the poorest people are suffering. you look at universal healthcare, lack of living wages, sweatshop labor. this is an extension of wealth build. so people are not critiquing capitalism. they are critiquing unfetterred capitalism. brenda: we could look at the successfully run communist countries. >> but the most successful just pure math system right now is china and it is basically communism with a new form of capitalism thrown in there. i don't see anybody complaining about china one billion people still earning a dollar a month or them attacking china based communism. but when we have a recession and almost a depression we are open

for shots. it would be nice if the shots were not from the white house. brenda: i'm getting word that gary b, you are absolutely sh-- you don't know what to say. >> i'm speechless and honestly, mark, for an academic and a person i admire to pin the world problems on capitalism is just shocking to me. you are talking about a country here that has grown quicker, more prosperous, more educated, made more advances than any combination of countries in the world based on one thing, capitalism. my gosh, you look at every other country that has dug itself out from the bottom, it is based when they manufactured to capitalism. even china has become more xral h -- capital his particular. so what you are saying makes zero sense. >> you made a straw argument . e

you are saying communism doesn't work. >> that's not what we are saying. >> we are saying capitalism works because the other systems have failed. >> what i'm saying is capitalism needs regulation. these people are not krit teaci capitalism as such. they need to regulate markets. brenda: hold on. >> i'm saying -- brenda: go ahead. >> the g-20 protesters should be celebrating because capitalism is dying and dying from here. look what we have. we have your president, our president, the one you voted for, not that i voted for, here is what he is proposing. free healthcare. he wants to subsidize your home. he will give you eight grand and maybe 15 a grand and make the car you want to buy cheaper. that is not free market or capitalism. they should be throwing up

fireworks. brenda: pat, let me get you in here. >> capitalism is the absolute worst form in the world to organize an economic system except for everything else we ever tried. it flawed and problematic but we haven't figured out a better way to do anything and those who say capitalism is at fault for the recent debacle or real playilay the blame at the structure when the blame is varied. you can put it at bernanke and greenspan keeping the rates too long, the united states for overemphasizing home ownership, et cetera but it is not the system itself. brenda: so it is not perfect but cause for celebration, not apology. uncle sam lending a company al gore is behind a half billion bucks tuse, faster and easier

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brenda: talk about green gone wild our own government lending over a half billion bucks to build luxury hybrid cars in again land. the company getting the green is backed by al gore's investment firm. eric, no trouble with that? >> first of all it stinks that al gore is behind it. but think of the five hundred and something million $170 million is for a plant built in detroit which means it will probably be a u.a.w. this stinks all the way around of political pay yellola.

brenda: technology always takes seed money. >> you are talking about investment and risk and creativity. that is what had about. most of the money is coming to the united states. this is a god idea. i don't like the fact it is a $90,000 car but the rest you are wrong. brenda: gary b, appear gore signed up for one of these. i bet you are on the list. >> $89,000. how many years would it take you in gas savings to pay that off? longer than most people will live. and here is the thing. this is all part of an $80 billion green energy policy that the government is trying, just like back in the 1970's. one of these days the government will learn without our money hopefully that they cannot determine the direction of the market. people want an $89,000 clean

car, great let the companies start it up. >> i don't see a problem with the fact that it is an expensive car because the technologies are often tried out in niche markets. but i do not think it needs public funding. toyota was able to come up with the prius and people bought that and they didn't get a lot of public subsidy. so i don't think will needs to be a loan but the high-end and i don't think we should freak out about that. brenda: i think the who is uncle sam is handing the money out. >> if we sold 500,those when you plug them in the grid we don't have a power dprid in the united states that can deliver that power simultaneously. where we should be inresting the money is in our power grid to get the green energy from about it is created. >> why don't we do everything

back assward. >> imshocked that -- brenda: thank you, mark, very much. good to have you on the program. so, once a g.o.p. star now "dancing with the stars," and now tom delay showing you how his cha-cha cha can bring you some serious@

brenda: predictions. gary b, you are up. >> iran got a little smackdown in the u.n. like that is going to make a big difference. we are still going to need missiles. buy raytheon. it is up 50% in a year. brenda: pat, you like it? >> no, it is fairly valued at best. brenda: toby?

>> the environmentalists have determined that our toilet paper is too thick and if we went to european style life would be good. i say buy proctor and gamble. they make very soft and cushy toilet paperment brenda: gary b, you like that is >> i like this prediction in every way, shape and form. brenda: pat, your prediction? >> shape and form toilet paper not going there. philip morris. everybody is always hitting this stock but one of the best performers the last several decades. 8% yield. brenda: toby? >> if it is up 40% i will personally eat a carton of cigarettes. i think it is a great stock but 20% at most. brenda: prop man. >> brenda, tom delay on