i feel bad about what happened to the little girl. i feel like maybe if i didn't go there she might still be living. i'm a father myself, so i understand. >> a former co-defendant now turned state witness talks about this crime scene where a 9-year-old girl died in a hail of bullets. she took a bullet from an ak and damon darling is in court for it. so the co-d turned state's witness tells all, right now

coming up on "open court." good morning, everyone, and welcome to "open court." i'm ashleigh banfield. you'll have to pardon the voice today. i have that little touch of the flu or a cold or something. i beg your pardon for it. let's get right to this today. we've been digging into this trial, this live trial that began just this week, and i'll tell you something. not so sure i've heard of the shenanigans that have been going on inside and outside of this courtroom in any other case like this one. i'll tell you, we've had issues leading up to this case with reluctant witnesses. one witness who spent a month in jail because she didn't want to testify. we got people being thrown out of this courtroom for disrupting it. we got prosecutors being approached outside the courtroom in a menacing way. we have other witnesses who are too scared to testify. my god, this environment that has started for us, at least, in

this story at the complex is bleeding into the courtroom process as well. nonetheless, the star witness you might call him in the case, the man who was a co-d until, oh, not so long ago until he decided to take a deal and talk and talk and talk took the stand to tell about his role in all of this. that's why he's only going to jail for seven years. but damon darling is facing second degree murder along with a couple of other very serious charges, too. our beth karas has all of the details of this story. >> it's not easy when you lose a loved one, especially in a senseless way like this. >> reporter: david jenkins' daughter was playing outside her home in a miami housing project when a gun battle erupted nearby. 9-year-old sherdavia jenkins was struck by a bullet from an ak-47. her death causing outrage in a neighborhood already riddled with violence. >> i'm asking everyone if you

know something, please come forward. take back your community. take it back before it's too far gone and too late. >> reporter: two men were charged with second degree murder in the girl's death. prosecutors say leroy larose and damon darling were involved in the deadly shootout, and it was darling, they claim, that fired the fatal shot. defense attorney jonathan meltz, though, claims his client shot in self-defense. >> what are you supposed to do? faced by a battle of a gun, you can run, get shot in the back. you can beg for your life. or you can meet force with force. >> reporter: larose has pleaded guilty to second degree murder and agreed to testify against darling in exchange for only seven years behind bars. darling could face a life sentence if convicted. but for the parents of little sherdavia, that is little consolation. >> why you took my baby?

she didn't do nothing wrong. she did not do nothing. >> that cute little face staring at us every single day as we cover this trial. it makes it very uncomfortable realizing that because of the foolish, brazen, reckless actions of some idiots who think it's okay to pack heat in a community neighborhood filled with kids this little girl who won trophies and accolades from her school for being such an overachiever is now no longer with us. and her family has to live with that. our correspondent on the story is beth karas who's joining me live from miami in front of the courthouse. so, beth, there's so much to talk about with regard to what transpired so far in day two of this case. so much. it's been really quite remarkable, but perhaps one of the more remarkable stories is what went on inside the courtroom with a very important witness. >> reporter: that's right. it was the last witness of the

day, and this woman, a neighbor, an eyewitness to the shooting or at least part of the argument between larose and darling on that day, was called to the stand. now, she had already testified and given a sworn statement in a deposition as part of the discovery in this case in the past three years, and she also testified in open court a week and a half ago at a hearing before the jury was seated. but yesterday when she was called to the stand, she was terrified to do it again. nonetheless, she was ordered to the stand in front of the jury. let's listen to some of that testimony. >> i know you're upset here today, and i know that you're upset because there's cameras in the courtroom, and we -- not many of us like cameras in the courtro courtroom. >> excuse me, your honor, don't i have a right for my kids' safety -- >> please, if you would just answer the questions. thank you. >> after you looked out the

window and saw the two people arguing with the guns in their hands, did you hear -- >> when i heard them arguing, i closed back -- i closed the sheet down and i laid back down. after that is when i heard the shooting. >> okay. did you go back out to the window to see who was firing the gun? >> no, no, why would i do that while they're shooting? i laid down on the floor. i don't recall. i don't remember. >> who fired first? >> i don't know who fired first. >> you can't tell the jury who took a gun out first? >> no, i don't, i can't. >> but you're sure you saw yellow man with a gun in his hand? >> yes. >> on direct examination, assistant state attorney kathleen hoeg asked this witness over and over again who fired first and didn't she say in the past she thought damon "red rock" darling fired first. she yesterday maintained that she could not recall. it's been a long time, even though the most recent testimony was she said that was only a week and a half ago. the prosecution was able to get

it out, though, that she had said it as recently as a week and a half ago that darling was the first to shoot. she's a critical witness for that point alone. >> i have to be -- beth, i've got to be honest with you here. i know we've got her face dij i advertised so there's no identification, we're not using her name, we're doing our best to protect her safety. but the fact that it's only been a few weeks since she was completely up-front and forthright with that information and came in to this courtroom now, shaking, obviously terrified, and i don't know about you, beth, but to my untrained eye it certainly looked like she was delivering answers by roet. i don't know. i don't recall. i don't know. i don't recall. i don't want to talk about it. that speaks volumes to jurors, doesn't it? >> reporter: right. i was in the courtroom for this. i sit on the side with our camera, the same side the jury's on, which is the defense side. the darling family supporters were behind me and the courtroom was packed on that side of the courtroom.

damon darling's mother right behind me in the second row. it was a darling supporter who was ejected forever from this trial because of making a -- a nasty comment to the prosecutor in the hallway. so it's that side of the courtroom that's kind of fired up. and it appears that this witness yesterday -- who knows the darling family. she lives in that neighborhood. she knows who the defendant is -- is really scared of them. and while she expressed a fear of the camera, it appears that her fear was really to people who were staring her down in the courtroom from the public gallery. we do not have information that there were specific threats, but something happened in the last week and a half until trial time. and she would not come out and say what she has said before. she is the witness who was locked up in the past earlier this year for 30 days because of fear for her own safety and her family's safety. she has seven children. and she was with her husband and her children in this apartment, a two-story apartment in pork

'n' beans, close to where the shooting happened. in fact, right across the street. >> beth, this is something out of a prime time drama on television. is it not a little suspicious to say the people involved in prosecuting this case that the very day that a prosecutor -- a prosecutor -- was approached in the hallway, in a menacing way that this woman shows up and is absolutely terrified to be there. i mean, do we have any indication that the police are investigating this, that there's something going on to get to the bottom of what the hell is going on out there? >> reporter: listen, i don't think that this scenario is all that unusual. they have a problem -- law enforcement does -- with people cooperating in communities such as pork 'n' beans because of a fear of retaliation, of being called a snitch. regardless of the facts of the case and what is the right thing to do. so long as you're cooperating with the police, it's considered

a bad thing. in fact, the police, i have been told, in this case and in others will pick up witnesses they need to talk to who are critical to a case and pick them up as though they're arresting them just so that anyone else who's witnessing it in the neighborhood won't think the person is voluntarily going to talk to the police. so it's a ruse. it's a fake arrest with the person, you know, knowing that it -- that's what's going to happen, just so you can come and talk to us, we're going to -- it's going to look like we're arresting you. this is the culture, ashleigh. it's not specific to this case. it's a problem for law enforcement. >> okay. i fully understand the culture situation. we spend a lot of time actually talking with the head of the crime stoppers organization down there who is so concerned about it they're doing everything they can to get around this concept that people just won't snitch. what i am specifically concerned with is that perhaps there's something going on inside the courthouse to threaten not only this witness, because i fully

believe that the complete 180 this witness has done and the fear that was evident in just her body language alone indicates that she has -- she has faced a specific threat recently. but i -- i'm also very concerned about the prosecutors being approached in a menacing way. what more do we know about this incident? what happened in the hallway? >> reporter: it was a woman. i do not know if it was a relative or another supporter friend, acquaintance of damon darling but it was someone on darling's side of the courtroom who saw monica gordo, the lead prosecutor, in the hallway and flipped her the bird and called her a bitch. she didn't make a threat to her but it was a nasty thing she did. >> that changes things completely. i was under the impression that there was something that made the prosecutor actually fear this person and it was awfully fishy that it happened on the same day that a witness would all of a sudden change completely and almost retract everything that she had been

saying up until now. let me bring in jeff mandel, who's a new jersey-based criminal defense attorney and teaches at rutgers law school. i don't know what you teach your students about this kind of thing because it's hard enough to teach just criminal procedure, civil procedure. but, my god. do you -- have you ever had a circumstance like this in your practice where you've had to sort of calm down your client's family and friends and say, listen. don't do what i think you're doing because this is bad. >> as a rule of thumb you generally want your clients to know that you should let the system work anyway and don't take actions into your own hands. that's something you always want to convey to people, especially if you have a case where maybe you're representing a victim who's a witness in a case and you just don't want them to retaliate. so, in any scenario, that's what you don't want to happen. >> do you read the "new york post"? >> i don't, no. >> i love it. i read it every single morning.

it's my joy of the day. i have been following the gotti story. who doesn't follow the gotti story in some respect. john gotti jr. is on trial for the fourth time for racketeering and murder. some of the testimony in that case is starting to sound like the way things are playing out in this case, meaning whenever there's somebody who's a turn coat, whenever there's somebody who's going to testify against a family member, that person sometimes disappears. that person's family members sometimes get beaten up. so, i know it happens. i know this is not unusual, but in this story, we got a woman with seven kids. she's not part of the family. she's not part of all this. she's just an innocent bystander trying to get by in life. >> unfortunately, i thought seeing me was the joy of the day. >> it was my second joy of the day after the "new york post." >> what's interesting about all of these cases is a recent trend you see in state courts is legislatures revising their evidence rules under a for at

this tour by wrongdoing doctrine whereby things that would not be admissible because of the confrontation state of the constitution is admitted if you can show the defendant did something which prevented that evidence from coming in. if they can show the defendant had made a threat against this person, information that would otherwise have been inadmissible hearsay -- >> could become admissible like that. >> it could, under the 804 rules. they're enacting and changing their evidence codes so forfeiture by wrongdoing allows this type of information to come in. >> we don't have to get that complex with this thing. this woman is here. her allegations have to do with damon darling who is there. she's not even trying to invoke language of people who are dead or otherwise unavailable because of the actions of the defendant. this is simple eyewitness stuff and it sounds like it's just simple witness tampering. >> that's what it sounds like. but again proving it is a different story. you can speculate all you want, but whether you like it or not,

the rules are very strict. he has an absolute right to a fair trial, and unless you can show he's said or done something, there's really no way to say he has intimidated her without having proof of doing it. >> no. >> certainly it should not be said in front of the jury. >> he's not out on bond, by the way, so i don't necessarily think that it's him. this may be disciples or, as beth mentions -- beth, let me get to you quickly before i go to break. do we have any idea whether the authorities are investigating the possibility of witness tampering in this case, whether this is somebody who has been commissioned by damon darling or a friend or family member of damon darling's to do this, to put the heat on this witness? >> reporter: i don't know if they're investigating it. this has sort have been an on again, off again issue with this witness. while she did testify two times, once at the hearing, once in a deposition about incriminating regarding darling, seeing him fire first, she's always expressed a concern for her safety. she did not want to come forward in february from the beginning.

she's expressed a fear for her safety. while she's doing the right thing, she knew -- sherdavia had knocked on her door easterly yessiier that day and asked if one of her daughters could come out to play. she knew sherdavia. she was doing the right thing, but she's also concerned about protecting her own children and herself. so i don't know if they're investigating it, but again, i don't know that they can investigate this in every case because it is -- it's just the culture there. >> beth, and she has seven kids. look, i'm -- this is a tough one because she has a duty to try to help clean up this mess that surrounds her, but at the same time she has a duty to seven children and making sure that they're safe. i feel terribly for her. i feel terribly for her. stand down for a moment if you will, beth. 2005, state of florida expanded the self-defense law commonly referred to as "stand your ground." here's how the statute reads. a person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is

attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat. no. no way. you do not need to retreat. you have the right to stand your ground and meet force with force. damon darling's attorney says that's exactly what happened in his case. they claim darling's life was in danger and that's why he pulled the trigger on at that ak-47. >> in the middle of that walkway, in the middle of broad daylight, yellow man knew what he wanted to do. he was going to settle this thing that he had with damon darling. and in his hands he had his little friend, his .44 magnum. >> say hello to my little friend is what they're alleging. today's question of the day is this. what's your opinion of florida's so-called "stand your ground" law? you can send us your answers by logging onto cnn.com/crime, click on "open court." make sure you click on "open court." you won't get our forum that's blank, ready for your words. write up your thoughts on the "stand your ground" as opposed

to the duty of retreat which many other states still have. we'll read the best one. and now, by the way, facebook back up. i was stopped from getting onto the facebook.com/tvashleigh page. so the conversation is now going. it ain't going, going, gone. you can have your comments read there, too. join the conversation. it's all live. back after this. a woman over 50

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you saw the person right in front of you pointing the assault rifle at you motioning to that other person? >> he didn't look. when he focused back on me, that's when he opened fire on me. >> that's leroy larose, the star witness in this case against damon darling. but it wasn't long ago he was a co-defendant with damon darling. the two of them apparently getting into a gun if it at a crowded community complex where children play in their front yard on a sunny summer saturday afternoon. and it turns out there were a bunch of children playing actually in the cross fire of those two, if the allegations are correct. and one of those children at 9 years old, little shay jenkins, took an ak bullet in her neck

and died. look at that picture of that little darling. she was absolutely adorable. she is no longer with us because of some gang land style fighting. this ain't boys will be boys, folks. this is absolute crap that behavior like this would go on, and it does, and it continues to. so, in any case, leroy is no longer a defendant because he took a sweet deal. seven years for his testimony, truthful testimony? well, you have to be the judge of that, as will those six jurors as well. under direct examination by the prosecutor, monica gordo, he sits down, takes that witness stand, tells a story of exactly who shot first in this whole ugly gun fight. have a listen. >> now, what does the person standing directly in front of you do at that point? >> after he focused back on me? >> yes. >> he opened fire on me. >> and what, if anything, do you do?

>> i was shot. i stood still until i was hit in the face and then hit in the arm. >> at some point do you pull out your gun? >> yes. >> when do you pull out your gun? >> after i was hit. >> and what do you do? >> i shoot back. >> how many times did you shoot back? >> four. >> did you get to empty your gun? >> no. >> why not? >> because he turned to run. >> and what did you do? >> i turned to run. >> why did you keep firing the other two? >> because i wasn't in danger from him anymore. >> were you there to kill him? >> no. i don't even know who it was. >> now, you say you see that person, right? >> yes. >> you turn and run? >> yes. >> at that point, as you turn and run, what do you do with your firearm? >> i put it in my pocket. >> and where do you go? >> i run back around the block. >> when you say you run back around the block, which way did you leave? >> i left going east, then i went north on the next avenue, i

went back north -- west again to my car. >> again showing you exhibit 19. can you point for us where you ran back? >> ran this way, back around. i looked around this way to see if the guy was still there because i was going to make my decision if i was going to run back to my car or not. >> when you looked this way, did you see the person on the porch? >> no. >> what did you do? >> i ran back around, got back in the car and pulled off. >> what happened as you went to pull off? >> stepped back off the porch, and i saw him raise the gun up at me. so i pulled it out. >> okay. now, as you pull out, which way do you leave? >> back this way. >> now, you just said that the guy with the gun is over here with his a.k. and he had been shooting at you. why do you pull out that way? >> because this guy was on top

of me. if i tried to make a u-turn, i would hit the rocks. i had to go straight across. >> when you're leaving the area, are your windows up or down? >> they're up. >> and as you're driving off, are you trying to fire out of your window? >> no. >> are you doing anything? >> no, i'm just ducked down, trying to get out of the area. >> why? >> because someone was shooting at me. >> as you're running away, once the first shots are fired, do the shots continue, or do they stop? >> they stop. >> once you get back in your car, do the shots continue? >> yes. >> and as you're driving away, are shots being fired at you? >> yes. >> and that second person you saw with an assault rifle is still on that porch that you described to the jury over by 67th? >> yes.

>> the second guy that was standing in the porch over by 67th, what kind of gun did he have? >> assault rifle. >> can you describe it? >> it looked like it was black and brown. >> was it a shotgun? >> it looked like an assault rifle, like it had a slip hanging out the bottom. >> i'm showing you what's been admitted into evidence as state's exhibit 68, 67, 66 and 65. do you recognize these photos? >> yes. >> what are they? >> that's my car. >> is that the car you were driving that day?

>> yes. >> is that the car you were driving away in when you were being fired at? >> yes. >> are these pictures of the damages that happened that day? >> yes. >> so, leroy larose testifying -- i don't know what you think about his demeanor. i personally have sort of felt as though this is a believable guy, which is weird for me because i'm not a big fan of guys who go looking for weed, packing a loaded .44 mag in a crowded complex where children live and play. i don't know. maybe that's just me. but i got to say, i look at him on the stand and his demeanor, to me, looks like he's telling the truth. he also looks like he is remorseful in a way. by the way, you may feel completely different. i just got back onto facebook. i got kicked off twice. maybe it's something i said. i don't know. head over there. tv sshl is the place to go. getting some of your comments. juanita says i believe someone has said something to this

witness. she seems terrified. yeah. i'm with you on that one. that was the witness who we played -- we're not identifying her, and we've even scrambled her face at this point because she does fear for her seven children's lives. she is not the star witness but she's a very important eyewitness in this case. beth karas, i want to come back to you for a moment. there was something i noticed in the testimony of leroy larose that i don't know i've ever seen before. you, as a veteran of the court process and a prosecutor as well, may know differently. he had handcuffs on while he was testifying, and then was asked to stand up in his cuffs and jumpsuit and go over and point something out. you can see the cuffs in the shot. we slow motioned it so you can see how difficult this is for him to do. do you have any idea why that is, that this witness wasn't able to at least appear without cuffs? >> reporter: well, that is apparently the policy here. he's not -- not only did he have his hands front cuffed, but he also was shackled at his ankles

and he was wearing the jail jumpsuit. he is a convicted murderer. it is not a secret here. he is not the one on trial. he is a witness. and so he doesn't get the breaks sometimes that -- obviously -- a person on trial will get and be able to come in unshackled, although i have seen here in florida in another city a person on trial for capital murder shackled while he sat. but they put a skirt around the table. so even a defendant preconviction was shackled in a particular case that was tried in naples. in any event, he was getting down from the stand, you know, shuffling over to the aerial photo and raising both hands and pointing to the position where he was, where he saw the two different shooters. he said there were two men with assault weapons about a block apart or so, although the police never found spent shell casings for anything but one assault weapon. and, you know, he was very soft

spoken. the judge had to tell him to speak up a couple of times, especially when he was off the stand looking at the photos. he just didn't project. and when asked why he pled guilty, as he continues to maintain he fired in self-denies -- don't forget, he's the one who turned himself in later five days later. the police didn't find him on the street. he turned himself in. he passed two polygraphs in the past year. >> we will hear about that in court. he passed those two polygraphs, truthful. but that will not make -- that just -- that's not the kind of thing we ever hear in court, is it? >> reporter: no, that's not admissible. it's a good investigative tool. also, the key witness the prosecution had to prove murder against him recanted, mercedes dixon, just before trial. >> a friend of darling's, right? >> reporter: she's damon darling's relative. she's the one who says she saw larose with his gun out, telling people to move out of there because he's going to shoot the place up. i'm paraphrasing. used an expletive.

she took back that statement. so without her as a credible witness, they had proof problems with larose, plus they were going to try him separately. the cases were severed. it wasn't a bullet from larose's gun that killed sherdavia jenkins. it was a bullet from an assault weapon, and larose had a .44 magnum revolver. >> all right. so hold for a second if you will, beth. i have a million other questions about larose, including the fact that he is a father himself. of four. so what is a father of four, in fact, father of three with one just about on the way actually, girlfriend very, very pregnant. what's a father of four or almost four doing out buying weed? with a gun. coming up you just saw damon darling's former co-defendant leroy larose on the stand testifying for the prosecution. coming up next, we will look at other cases where suspects went ahead and pointed the finger at the defendant in front of the jury. back after this.

this case is focused on one thing and that was damon darl g darling's right to defend

himself against leroy larose who was staring at him down the barrel of a .44 magnum. >> well, that sounds convincing. defense attorney standing up for his client in this so-called stand your ground defense. our question of the day is exactly about that. what's your opinion of florida's so-called "stand your ground" law? basically it means you do not have a duty to run away. you can stand your ground if faced with that kind of a threat and you can meet that threat with deadly force. go to cnn.com/crime, click on "open court." write us up an answer. tell us what you think about this. if you do the best job at it of everybody viewing today we'll read your comment on the air in your name and your state and all that. i'm also reading your comments on facebook, but i've had a tough time getting onto it. i've been kicked off three times. i'm really sorry, folks, because i see the comments are coming

in. in fact, i think jennifer's saying it breaks my heart that justice may not be able to be fully served to this bad guy because people feel threatened by him. we don't know, jennifer, if the witness earlier feels threatened by him or someone else. we just know there's something fishy going on when that witness completely flipped within days and was literally physically shaking and begging and crying on the stand. and now saying i don't remember anything. i don't want to talk about it. i just was lying down. i didn't see anything when that was not her story just days ago during motions hearing. all right. i want to get you back into the case because leroy larose, the star witness, former co-defendant, now telling his story from the stand. talks about not only what happened when he was fired at, he says, first by the defendant, damon darling, pointing the finger basically at the other guy, but why he went back to the scene that day. very unusual. have a listen.

>> when you drove away, did you go back to the scene that day? >> no. >> what did you do with the car? >> i parked it at my friend's grandmother's house. >> why? >> to hide it from the people that was shooting at me because the second time i was shot in that car. >> what did you do with the firearm? >> i threw it in a dumpster. >> why? >> to get rid of it because i didn't want to get caught with it. >> when you heard a little girl got shot, what did you do? >> i called the detectives to find out why they were looking for me. >> so you called the detectives? >> right. >> to find out why they were looking for you? >> yes. >> well, didn't you know why they were looking for you? >> yes. i just found out a little girl got killed that day. >> that day you spoke to them, did you tell them the truth? >> no. >> did you tell them parts of the truth? >> yes. >> why didn't you tell them the whole truth? >> because i was scared. >> why were you scared? >> because a little girl got

killed. >> were you later arrested? >> yes. >> were you charged? >> yes. >> did you plead guilty in this case, sir? >> yes. >> i'm showing you what's been admitted into evidence as state's exhibit 69. do you recognize this? >> yes. >> do you know what it is? >> yes. it's my plea agreement. >> have you read it before? >> yes. >> what did you plead guilty to, sir? >> second degree murder with a firearm. >> how much time are you serving in prison? >> seven years in prison. ten years probation. >> so, you have seven years in prison and ten years probation? >> yes. >> what else are you expected to do? >> to give truthful testimony. >> what happens, sir, if you violate that plea agreement and don't give truthful testimony? >> i'll do the rest of my life in jail.

>> mr. larose, did you ever go to a car wash on 17th avenue? >> yes, i went to several on 17th avenue. >> did you ever go there with an ak-47? >> no. >> did you ever go there to confront the person that's sitting over there in the navy blue suit? >> no, i don't know him. >> have you ever threatened this man? >> no. >> sir, why did you plead guilty to second degree murder? tell the members of the jury. >> because i feel bad about what happened to the little girl. i feel like maybe if i didn't go there to buy weed that day with the gun, she might still be living. i'm a father myself, so i understand. >> did you provoke this person on that day? >> no. >> did you go there to threaten the defendant, damon darling, in this case? >> no.

>> did you go there to threaten anybody that day? >> no. >> were you stalking anybody that day? >> no, i wasn't. >> i got to say, that's -- that's a pretty impressive demeanor. i typically am not a huge fan of the demeanor of co-defendants who turn state's witness on the stand. i sometimes always smell a rat. kind of feel like i can see through the act. but on this guy, i'm not so sure i can. then i hear he's got four kids. four kids! and one of them was like on the verge of delivery when he was out looking for weed that night. i don't even have time to smoke weed. i only have two kids. how does anybody have time to go looking for weed? p.s., if you have four kids, what are you doing walking around with a loaded .44 mag tucked under your loose shirt? i sure hope that wasn't anywhere near where those kids live. i sure hope. little sherdavia jenkins died tragically when she was caught in the cross fire of a shootout between damon darling and that

guy, leroy larose. on the eve of trial, larose took a plea, second degree murder. as you just saw, he testified as a star witness against darling. we thought it might be a good idea to look at similar cases where suspects took a deal, testified against the former co-d. back in 1991, pam smart, a new hampshire schoolteacher, was tried and convicted for conspiring with her teenage lover to murder her own husband. smart was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. as for her lover and his two friends who helped to kill gregory smart, they all took plea deals and are currently serving lengthy sentences. j.p. orlawitz was only 17 when he was accused of murdering and dismembering daniel sorensen. at his trial last year, he claimed self-defense but his co-defendant, alex, told a very different story.

>> did you ask him why on monday the 5th the defendant was going to kill dan? >> yes. >> what did he say? >> he said because he owed him money and he also had his piece -- meaning gun. he also said he wanted to hide the identity of the body. >> did he tell you how he planned to do that? >> he said he was going to get rid of the fingertips. >> how? >> by burning them. >> did he tell you how by burning them? >> no. >> okay. what else did he say? >> he said that he was also going to cut off his head. >> yeah, that's exactly what happened, too. in exchange for the testimony by him, he took a plea to second degree murder. orlawitz was convicted of first degree murder and got a mandatory life sentence in that story. last year, o.j. simpson. he was sentenced to a term of up to 30 years for kidnapping and armed robbery of some sports memorabilia dealers in a las vegas hotel room. former nfl legend claimed that

he never knew there were guns in the room. he said he was just there to retrieve some personal mementos which had been stolen from him. >> i wasn't there to hurt anybody. i just wanted my personal things, and i realize now it was stupid of me. i am sorry. i didn't mean to steal anything from anybody, and i didn't know i was doing anything illegal. i thought i was confronting friends and retrieving my property. so i'm sorry. i'm sorry for all of it. >> sorry for all, all of it. charles stewart was the only co-defendant who did not take a plea deal. he, too, was convicted and will serve 7 1/2 to 27 years in prison. four other co-ds, though, flipped on o.j. they flipped and they testified against him. walter alexander, charles cashmore, charles ehrlich and michael mcclinton all cut deals with the prosecutors in exchange

for their reduced sentences. all right. so, we've seen it before, and we're going to see it again. kind of the way it works, folks. first to the door usually gets the best deal in the case. beth karas, in the case, though, of he ray larose, it's not so much first to the door. this guy got a sweet deal, but they really didn't have to look long and hard for him. he came forward, didn't he? >> reporter: yes, and he didn't take a plea until the 11th hour, and it appears there are a number of factors. i don't know that the prosecution necessarily needed him for their proof against darling. it's nice that he took the plea and was able to testify from a prosecutor's point of view. however, they had problems with their proof against him. it wasn't his bullet that hit sherdavia, but that doesn't mean it would have been unprovable. then the key witness who sees larose provoke the situation recants her testimony. and larose, they know, passed

two polygraphs. i think the polygraph examiner is someone law enforcement uses or has used so it isn't somebody who has sort of a defense bias in the way questions are phrased in a polygraph. there were a lot of factors that may have affected the proof in their case, so the prosecution can walk away with a second degree murder conviction, albeit with a light sentence, but they may not have been able to prove this case at trial. so, seven years followed by ten years probation is a pretty good sentence considering there was a good chance of an acquittal at trial. >> you know, when we watched him on the stand, beth, i got to be honest, the demeanor -- i've been mentioning this all morning. his demeanor is not what i expected from somebody who i expected would be a total street thug. i still feel that way about him because he's walking around with a .44 in a crowded housing

complex. there's a comment that says, i believe larose is more believable because he turned himself in after learning of the death. beth, clarify for me. how many days did it take for him to turn himself in? >> reporter: five days. turned himself in on july 6th. he was carrying a gun, he said, because he had been shot at two months before. not far from where this shooting took place. so whenever he went into liberty city, he was armed because he knew it was a dangerous place. but take a look at him. a little bit of a stereotype, but he kind of looks like a pot smoker, kind of a mellow pot smoker. with his long dreads. so, there -- he may be telling the truth. >> beth karas, that is totally a stereotype. i'm going to say it right here and now on live television. i have plenty of friends who wear business suits and they smoke weed, and they don't have dreads. then again, i do have other friends who do have very long dreads and smoke weed as well. i want to show some video, by the way, of the dreads we're talking about. there's a reason i'm showing you

this picture. it's not just because those are some sweet dreads. i have to be honest with you. those are unbelievable dreads. i rarely see dreads this long. clearly mr. larose has spent probably a couple of decades cultivating those dreads, that look. there's a specific reason for me bringing this up. number one, the dreads are part of the i.d. process of witnesses who have been involved in this case, and number two, he's wearing jailhouse orange, yet he's still wearing the long dreads. there was even some talk in this courtroom of the threat of losing those dreads by going away for life. so i'm going to -- two quick questions. first, we have to be very quick on this because i have a break coming at me. beth, to you the question about the witness i.d.s. people said a yellowy guy with dreads. that's how they've been characterizing him, right? >> reporter: that's right. he's still in the custody of the county here, even though he has now been sentenced. he will be turned over to state corrections as soon as the trial

is over. it is probably the case -- although i don't have confirmation that he looks the same as he did the last three years, even though they have plenty of photographs of him or they have photos they could have introduced of him with the dreads. why not keep him in the same appearance until he is shipped off to state prison. >> okay. and jeff mandel, we're going to do that break but i'm going to let you contemplate this question during the break. here it is. is there any reason why somebody should be able to go to prison and keep this look and not lose hair, beard, you know where i'm going with this, other kinds of facial hair or, or particular looks that otherwise you would think would be gonzo upon processing? fingerprinting, give me your valuables. think about that. when we come back after the break, jeff will give us his answer. you can weigh in, too. i finally got back on facebook. facebook.com/tv ashleigh.

do you think the testimony of leroy helped the prosecution in this case? come on. he's a star witness, man. he's got a pretty believable demeanor, too, but, oh, yeah, there's that sweet deal that he got. seven years for second degree. are you kidding me? look at that face, though. look at that furrowed brow. do you believe him? logon to cnn.com/crime, click on the 13th juror question and tell me your thoughts about that. do you think this man was a help to the prosecutor's case? all that coming up in just a moment. you can get on the board with your thoughts and your answers there. and you can also tell me what you think about leroy larose and those dreads. facebook.com/tv ashleigh. lots of places to go when you're clicking away on your computer but you're watching tv.

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so i say he's got a great demeanor and he's believable on the stand but he hasn't undergone cross yet, has he?

welcome back. i wanted to mention that i had a good facebook comment that i thought was appropriate and i just lost it. boy, i hate it when that happens. it was somebody who said they live near this area and that they were extraordinarily concerned about the kind of fear that people live in. i'll find it. in the meantime, i want jeff mandel to weigh in on the whole dread thing because i think that's a significant part of this story, not only because th

in court -- and these are not your average dreads. look at that. they're so long they go out of the picture. our frame wasn't big enough to capture the whole story there. but people reported the dreads as part of their eyewitness identification. that is a very unique kind of eyewitness identification. but then again, he's also incarcerated, and he has those dreads. as beth mentioned, he may be in a state jail waiting to go to prison, but when he gets to prison, is it an absolute guarantee that those dreads are coming off? because that looks like it's been at least 20 years of growth. >> what's really interesting is technically it's evidence in this case. it's an eye-form of evidence but i would be curious if anybody had filed any motions with the court to prevent him from cutting it if they can do that. as for if he can keep his dreads and still be incarcerated, i would certainly expect there's a religious purpose for growing it.

while give you give up a lot of rights when you are sent to jail and prison, there are certain ones you do maintain. they do provide facilities in the jails and prisons for people to pray and have religious observance. i would suspect that in this particular case, that there would be a religious reason why he could keep those if, in fact, he will continue to keep those. what's really interesting, though, i just wanted to mention, we mentioned forfeiture by wrongdoing doctrine before. that applies when a witness is no longer available. in this case where you had seen she was wishy-washy about her answers they certainly can try to impeach her with any prior inconsistent statements. >> you're talking about a whole other person there. we have some viewers who have no idea what you're talking about, my friend. this is the witness who was so reluctant, she wanted to change her story. i don't want to be here, don't i have rights? i'm terrified. >> we discussed the forfeiture by wrongdoing doctrine to see what evidence could still come in against the defendant. i wanted to mention they could try to impeach her with prior inconsistent statements if she's

being inconsistent or use her prior statement to try to refresh her recollection of what she said before. >> this person has spent a month in jail already, this innocent bystander because she didn't want to come into court. put her in jail. >> they could do it with softball questions. you don't have to attack when you impeach somebody. you can throw soft balls at somebody with very simple questions about didn't you previous testify to x, y and z? that's a way for the state to remedy it. i do submit, however, continuing to allow her to show her fear in the courtroom -- >> you don't have to fear saying it. >> it arguably prejudices the defendant. it implies the defendant has something to do with this when there may not be proof of that. it could be compromising his right to a fair trial with a witness who is allowed to show such fear in front of the jury. no doubt she's terrified, but at what point does it compromise the defendant's right to a fair trial? >> i'm with you on that. i'm ae tell you, nothing gets by those jurors, right? nothing. a fear like that, whether

they're going to ascribe that fear to the man over there or whether they're going to think, he's incarcerated, he couldn't possibly have -- maybe a mena menacing look. i don't know. who knows what it was? jeff mandel, you don't miss a thing. is your grandmother watching? >> she better be. my only fan. >> you look adorable today, by the way. i tell you that every day, but particularly adorable today. don't go changing. jeff mandel joining us for the day. we have the question of the day for you as well. what's your opinion of that so-called stand your ground law in florida? not the only place, by the way. i think texas also has it. you do not have a duty to retreat. if you are in the face of danger like that, you can meet force with force, including deadly force, including in a crowded public space. so what do you think about that? we're going to have more on that story and more testimony. %%%%

when you think of the gun on you, can you show us what you mean by that? >> i threw my hands up when he pointed the gun at me. >> why did you throw your hands up? >> because he was pointing the gun at me. >> were you afraid? >> i wasn't really terrified that he was going to kill me. i thought he was going to rob me or something. >> well, leroy larose may have thrown his hands up then but now he's cussed. he's testifying against damon darling, his former co-defendant in the death of little sherdavia jenkins, caught in the crossfire. two idiots messing around with guns. ak-47, .44 mag. please, there are kids playing in these neighborhoods. not only sherdavia, but her sister and a little friend, playing on a sunny saturday afternoon in july. which is when kids play in their front yards. if you're going to be a gun enthusiast, fine. i am, too. i'm a member of the nra. but i don't pack my heat in the

front of my waistband, go looking for weed where kids play and discharge my weapon. i don't know, am i crazy? don't answer that. welcome back, everybody. i'm ashleigh banfield. this is "open court." i'm not feeling so well today. i got a bit of a cold, bit of a head flu here, but i'm also feeling sick about what i'm seeing going on in this miami housing complex. they call it pork 'n' beans, it's a nickname for it but man, may sound funny to you but it sounds dangerous to people who know it. a lot of people know it. beth karas is our correspondent, who's been following this case. she joins me live once again down in miami, florida, with the very latest. you have to excuse my anger, beth, but every time i sort of go back and set the scene of this story, i still can't believe we're covering a story like this. i still can't believe we have two guys gun fighting like this is dodge city with little kids playing with dolls and that is exactly what this story's about. >> reporter: that's right, three of them who were outside being

watched every 15 minutes by sherdavia and katherine jenkins' mother, sharone, the second witness to testify, by the way, she was home with three of her five kids and she would keep an eye on them. they had just asked her permission to go see the candy lady a block away. they had bought a snack that wasn't candy, actually, and had returned, and they were playing right at the front of the house. they were not -- or apartment building. they were not allowed to go far without permission and she was constantly watching them. even though it was between like 2:30 and 3:00 on a sunny saturday afternoon on july 1st. sherdavia was playing a game with her dolls that she had made up, queen of the holes, where she dug three holes and then the other two -- she buried her doll and the other two had to try to guess which hole the doll was buried in. she was in the process of digging a hole for her doll when she was killed. >> her little sister at the time, katherine, who's now 11

years old, was able to take the stand and articulate that she had seen at least leroy larose passing by her. she was not able to identify shooters. she said she ran for her life. but one of the people who was able to or at least at one time was able to identify not only the shooters, but who shot first, was a woman living in an apartment complex on the second floor who had a clear view from her window. beth, i want to show some of the video of this woman as she tried to testify. she already testified, told her story, pointed the finger basically at damon darling, saying that's the one who shot first, and that was only like days ago, but something has happened, it seems, because now when she's brought into court, she's so terrified to be there, she asks to leave. she's so terrified to be there, she's crying. she's asking if she has rights. she has seven children. she doesn't want to answer and in fact, changes her story completely. take a look at how this all went

down in court. >> i know you're upset here today, i know you're upset because there's cameras in the courtroom and not many of us like cameras. >> don't i have a right for my kids' safety? >> if you would just answer the questions, thank you. >> after you looked out the window and saw the two people arguing with the guns in their hands, did you hear -- >> when i heard them arguing, i closed the sheet down and i laid back down. after that, that's when i heard the shooting. >> okay. did you go back out to the window and see who was firing the gun? >> no. no. why would i do that while they're shooting? i laid down on the floor. i don't recall. i don't remember. >> who fired first? >> i don't know who fired first. >> and you can't even tell the jury who even took a gun out first? >> no, i don't -- i can't. >> you're sure you saw yellow man with a gun in his hands? >> yes. >> yeah. those answers are quite something, aren't they?

i don't recall, i don't remember, i don't want to be here, don't i have rights for my children's' safety. these answers only days after she was able to completely testify without any fear, shaking, crying, begging not to be there, saying i saw damon darling shoot first and i saw the other guy, yellow man, didn't. now that's all changed. wonder what happened in those few days? joining me now, dr. robi ludwig, psychotherapist and author of the book "til death do us part." you're absolutely perfect for today. by the way, we spoke to you yesterday, i had no idea this was coming. i had no idea i was going to get an expert to be able to analyze that body language. i'm sorry you can't see her face but the truth is, we're so scared for her as well that we're digitizing her, not putting her identity out there. >> well, you look at this woman's body language and clearly, she is a woman who feels powerless and if she can disappear, she would. so you can clearly see her anxiety, her powerlessness, and

just by the tone of her voice, you can see how guarded she is. so this is a woman who is legitimately frightened. now, why she's frightened, i don't know, but you have to remember, you know, not every home is like the happy suburbs. in certain places, it's like a war zone, and there are certain loyalties and people are threatened and not everybody's life is secure. so this woman clearly feels afraid. >> well, there's something else to it, too. maybe i'm reading more into this than i should be but when i hear those answers she's giving, i don't know, i don't recall, they sound like they are answers by rote. she sounds like a machine who knows damn well just don't say anything, just say you don't know anything. it doesn't sound like she's thinking about it and saying i don't know, i don't recall, i'm sorry. >> that's what i mean by guarded. that's what i mean by protecting herself. you're right, it sounds like a script that she is going over in her head, but it is based on a

reason. listen, i'm not saying she's right or wrong, i'm not in her head and i don't live where she lives but it sounds like she was threatened like somewhere along the way, she got the idea if she were to tell the truth, her life would be in danger or her kids' life would be in danger. i don't know if it's a gang situation, that's the first thing that pops into my head. it's not clear. but clearly, this woman does not feel safe and she may not be. >> yeah. something has definitely changed. in fact, beth karas, since i was not there for the pretrial motion to dismiss all the charges against damon darling, and i believe that's the place where she originally testified, got up on the stand, it was a whole different picture. can you characterize not to suggest you can quote her verbatim but can you characterize for me a, what she said and b, the way she said it just days ago? >> reporter: well, of course she's not facing a jury at that point. it was september 17th and it was two days after larose had pled guilty. in fact, larose also testified at that hearing.

the courtroom had spectators in it. i can't recall, it wasn't as full as it is now but i'm sure some members of the darling family were there. she did say damon darling fired first. she did not say she saw the whole shooting. she was consistent yesterday with what she said in the past because once shots start being fired, she's down, but she heard the argument, peeked out her window. of course, her windows were open, her air conditioning was broken, and then she pulled the shades down when the shots were fired, but she did see both of them with guns in their hands and she said darling fired first. yesterday, she continued to say she saw both of them with guns in their hands, but she said once the shooting started, she doesn't know who fired first and she also didn't watch the shooting. but that is still critical. i think the defense will use her testimony from yesterday, seeing larose with the gun in his hand. larose says he didn't pull the gun out until he was fired at and once he was fired at, he fired in return and ran in the opposite direction from darling.

>> you know, we've got a comment here from beth -- or rather, we've got a comment from sinea on facebook saying i think she is scared. she is shaking and she's referring, of course, to this witness who we're not naming. i mean, i feel initially she wanted to do the right thing but if you haven't lived where she lives, then you really can't blame her. the cops are not going to protect her 24/7. i feel bad for her. i wish there was a way she could have testified in confidence that this is a public process, folks, you always have a right as a defendant to face your accuser. that is in the u.s. constitution. that is everybody's right. therefore, it's very, very rare where you have somebody behind a screen, very rare. sometimes children, but it's a very unusual occurrence. but boy, i do, too, i feel bad for this woman as well. as we go to break, i want to update you on today's 13th juror question for the day. did the testimony of leroy larose help the prosecution. look at you. holy smokes.

75% of you saying yeah. kind of believe this guy, think he's telling the truth, he looks like he's contrite and you know what, there's some remorse there. i don't know if i can read all that into your numbers but that's how i felt about him. i didn't expect the guy that's on the stand. a quarter of you saying yeah, whatever, he was a co-d turned co. i don't know if i should read all that into your numbers but that's how the numbers are shaking down. you don't feel so? get to cnn dom/crime and change the numbers up any way you wish. also have your say, facebook.com/tv ashleigh is where we're having live conversation right now. ññññ

welcome back to "open court." i've been keeping an eye on the live camera in our courtroom in miami, florida, where beth karas has been reporting and here it is. we got the shot up. you can see some of the players gathering. one of the court officers chatting with damon darling's defense attorney as damon sits quietly beside him. i know a couple of the facebookers have commented on darling but i got to be honest

here. he looks great. i mean, as defendants go, he looks like one of the lawyers. he's beautifully dressed in what looks like a very expensive suit. hard to tell the difference between a defense attorney and him in terms of just looking really respectable. let's listen in and see if we can hear any of the murmurs as they get ready for the day. >> they just left him on? okay. >> yeah. yeah. it's got his name on it. i was looking -- >> you know, little unorthodox but just like to dip in live just so that you get the feeling that you're there. that's the way a courtroom really is, folks, as people gather and convene and the players get ready and the judge is not on the bench and the jury's not in the box. there's a lot of chitchat, idle

chat and bits of business as well that they're trying to figure out. i always like that. i like to just get you in there so you can get a sense of it because this is real. it's live, it's real tv, it's trutv. that's what it is. i want to get you in to some of the testimony from yesterday when leroy larose is on the stand. co-d turned star witness. if you're a defense attorney, that usually makes you do something like this. >> oh, yeah. because come time for cross-examination, it's open season, my friends. so have a look at some of the cross-examination as done expertly by jonathan meltz, defense attorney. >> mr. 'larose, are you an honest man? >> yes. >> have you told us the truth today? >> yes. >> can we rely upon you because you're an honest man? >> yes. >> you haven't lied to us today for any reason? >> no. >> is there a reason you would like to us today? >> no. >> is there any pressure on you

to testify in a certain way? >> no. >> is there any pressure on you at all today? >> yes. i'm nervous right now. >> is it pressure on you to testify truthfully, correct? >> yes. >> if you don't testify truthfully, you go to prison for life? >> yes. >> you don't like prison? >> no. >> going to have to cut your hair in prison. >> yes. >> won't be able to see your family. >> right. >> your babies. >> right. >> and truthful testimony, the government determines if your testimony is truthful, right? >> i don't know who, but i'm telling the truth about what happened. >> it's not me, right? >> right. >> i don't determine if it's truthful, right? it's not the people out there, right? >> right. >> who has the power to put you in prison? >> the judge. >> who else? who did you enter the plea agreement with? >> the state. >> the state, the government, right? >> yes. >> they told you if you don't give truthful testimony, you go to prison? >> yes. >> so you actually have been a liar before in your life, correct? >> yes. >> you lie when it helps you? >> i've told lies before, yes.

>> well, you wouldn't tell a lie to hurt you, right? >> right. >> you tell a lie to help yourself. >> yes. >> so let me get this straight. you were charged with second degree murder, right. >> yes. >> facing life in prison. >> yes. >> something happened, right? >> yes. >> you're no longer charged with second degree murder? >> i am still charged with second degree murder. >> you're convicted. >> right. >> you're a convicted felon? >> right. >> but one day you weren't convicted, you were facing life in prison, right? >> yes. >> something happened and then you're sentenced to only seven years. >> yes. >> have you already been in prison over three years. >> yes. >> you know what gained time is, right? >> yes. >> you know the calculation. basically you're going to get out in less than three years. >> i don't know the exact date but something around three

years. >> in three years you're a free man? >> yes. >> you go back to your family. >> yes. >> all you have to do is come up here and testify truthfully for the state. >> i've testified truthfully, yes. >> for the state. >> yes. >> you're not testifying for me. >> or the defense, whoever calls me up to the stand. >> who just called you? >> the state. >> so you testified and told the jury that you were going on july 1st, 2006, to buy weed. >> yes. >> at the time, you were working at walmart? >> yes. >> matter of fact, you had been at walmart for a matter of six months? >> no, not six months. i just recently got that job. >> you got that job and you had to submit to drug testing. >> yes. >> and drug testing plus marijuana equals no job, right? >> i had to take a drug test at

the beginning. >> and you could also be subject to any drug tests while you worked there, right? >> yes. >> but you didn't care about that. you just were going to go smoke weed? >> it wasn't that. i wasn't feeling right. i was nervous. >> you were nervous because your girlfriend was going to have a c-section, right? >> yes. >> very, very stressful for you. worth giving up a job at walmart, right? >> no, not really. it was stupid. >> it was stupid. so you hadn't smoked weed in a long time because you knew the drug test was coming. >> right. >> but all of a sudden, on this day, july 1st, 2006, you decide to go to or you're telling us you go to that location to buy weed? >> yes. >> and you weren't going there for any other reason, right? >> no. >> but it just so happens a couple months before, you get into some awkward situations, right? >> right. >> it seems that there's a pattern of that, you get shot at a lot, right? >> well, yes, on this occasion, yes. >> no fault of your own.

>> no. >> just bad luck. right? >> yes. >> i mean, you just happen to be one of those people that get shot at for no reason? >> i don't know what the reason is, but. >> let's talk about that. >> oh, yes. let's talk about that. why is it that you just seem to get shot at a lot? just walking around? i mean, okay, granted, this is a lousy place but you live there. no mr. larose, you don't live at the pork 'n' beans, you don't, but you do get shot at a lot. this defense attorney is smart. he knows how to send this questioning into an area which will make you think and probably those six jurors who are sitting in judgment, too, will be able to think about that, too. yes, i said six. i meant six. only six jurors sitting on this second degree murder case. ain't capital, folks. if it were capital, there would be 12. live look inside the courtroom. they are still convening. what you are seeing is not anything having to do with this case, some scheduling issues as

we wait for witness number one in the case against damon darling. accused of second degree murder of a little 9-year-old girl. (announcer) listening to you.

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our 13th juror question for today, did the testimony of leroy larose help the prosecution and i asked you if you didn't like the numbers you saw before, just go on ahead change them up, and you did. we're at 77% of you now, so the numbers are climbing ever so slightly but they are climbing. more of you think that he's doing a great job on the stand than not, but there is about a quarter of you, you're saying not so fast. he was a co-d, he did turn state's witness and did get a sweet deal. seven years for second degree murder of a child. don't forget, it wasn't his bullet that went into the neck of sherdavia jenkins. it was not the bullet from his .44 mag, it was a bullet from an ak. ak in a crowded community housing project. i know, ashleigh, get over it, it happens, it's reality, especially at the pork 'n' beans, where the shootings happen day and night. but when leroy larose took the deal, there was a deal with that deal and the deal was tau the

stand, you talk to us, you give us a statement, you make yourself available for the defense attorney as well, and then we'll see how this all goes. so in that deal, he did show up in an orange jump suit because he is serving time, and he did talk about the incident and he did talk about who shot first, and then he had to undergo cross-examination, right? a bit of a drag. and in that effect, jonathan meltz, the defense attorney for damon darling, said so let me ask you this. you're at this housing complex with a loaded mag, you know, tucked in the front of your baggy teeshirt in your waistband, and you didn't even know who the guy was shooting at you? really? is that the story, really? have a look. >> matter of fact, you're telling the jury here today that you don't even know who that man was on the porch? >> right.

>> firing the gun at you, right? >> right. >> you're not telling the jury it was damon darling, are you? >> no. i didn't know who it was. >> you have no idea who it was? >> no. >> the first time you said you have seen damon darling was when you were in jail together, right? >> yes. that i know of, yes. >> so you can't tell the jury it was damon darling who shot at you? >> no. >> you don't know who it is? >> no. >> because you're an honest man? >> yes. >> and this guy said to you, this unknown man says to you you're supposed to be looking for me? >> at first he said am i the one that drive that gray honda. >> this is what that stranger says to you? >> yes. >> then he says you looking for me? >> yes. >> and then he shows you he had a gun? >> no. before he even said any of that, he pointed the gun at me. >> he asked you, did you have something, right? >> yes.

>> he wanted you to lift your shirt? >> yes. >> you wouldn't do that, would you? >> i had my hands up in the air before i could even move, he looked to the side. >> but you wouldn't lift your shirt? >> i wasn't going to move. i didn't want to be shot. >> now, with regard to being a liar, you told the police when you were questioned at your arrest that you never had a gun. >> yes. >> you told the police that you never fired a gun at this stranger. >> yes. >> you also told them that you went there without a gun. >> yes. >> lie, lie, lie. >> yes. >> and you actually told the police how could i even fire at him, if somebody's in front of you with an assault rifle, two of them, how can i even shoot at somebody. that's what you said to the police. >> yes. >> you told the police right when you were arrested that there were two men shooting at you with assault rifles.

>> yes. >> matter of fact, the second shooter, you couldn't even identify. >> no. >> right? >> no. >> so two unknown men, two strangers, are firing at you. >> yes. only thing i can remember is what they had on and basically their skin complexion because they had hats pulled down low and i was walking toward the sun. >> you had a hat on too, right? >> yes. >> actually, the second shooter, so this is the man not on the porch, okay, the second shooter was about 18? >> i don't know. >> well, you gave a description to the police three years ago, right? >> right. that's what i was told, not from what i saw. >> but you remember -- so you told the police that the guy was a young guy, maybe 18? that's what you told the police. >> yes. >> slender, brown skin? >> yes. >> low hair cut? >> yes. >> wearing a hat? >> yes. >> not sure of the color? >> right. it was either red or brown. because one guy had on a red hat, the other one had on a brown hat. >> red hat.

could have been a red hat. >> yes. >> but you did tell the police he goes by the name of old man, right? >> yes. >> and that he played for the liberty city football league. >> right. that's what i heard. >> so you left the scene and drove to your friend's house to hide your car. >> yes. >> what was your friend's name? >> onassis george. >> you gave the name to the police, right? >> no. >> because you were either lying to the police or hiding information from the police or you didn't remember. which was it? >> no. i just told them where the car was and they went and picked it up. >> but they asked you the name of your friend, right? >> i don't think so. >> you never gave them the name of a friend. >> no. i just told them the address where the car was. >> you actually asked the police why this other guy isn't being looked for, meaning the second

shooter, right? >> yes. >> and you were told by detective garcia, the lead detective -- >> yes. >> -- that they were looking for everybody and anybody that was involved in the death of sherdavia jenkins, right? >> yes. >> now, you're not surprised that the government offered you a plea deal here, right? >> no. not really. >> because you say you believe you're an innocent man, you're a victim, right? >> yes. >> you're an innocent man, you're a victim, and you say you acted in self-defense, right? >> yes. >> but you pled guilty. >> yes. >> so if you told the government that you're innocent and you were acting in self-defense, pleading guilty doesn't seem like it fits. >> i felt bad about what happened to the little girl. >> so because you're innocent, you're willing to go to prison for seven years and not see your little girl?

>> yes. eventually i'll be there to see them. they won't ever see their child again. >> absolutely correct. but because you don't go to trial, you don't face life in prison. >> right. >> but you're an innocent man. >> yes. >> well, i don't know about innocent, my friend. you did plead and you were firing your gun and you did have that heat as a convicted felon packed into your waistband loaded, going to a complex where kids like shay jenkins and her sister and her friend were playing with their dolls in their front yard. can i remind everybody for a moment here what happened? these kids heard the gunfire and even though it was july 1st, meaning three days away would be july 4th, their first instinct wasn't that it was firecrackers, which mine would be. it's that it was gunfire. they knew right away what it was.

they're familiar with it in this community. and they ran for it because that's the rule. kids, you hear the gunfire, run for the door. they did as they were told. they did as they always had. they did run for the door. and shay jenkins died at her threshold, paralyzed by the bullet that went into her neck, went right into her spinal column. are you hearing me, everybody? sherdavia jenkins took an ak bullet to her neck. look at her. she's a baby. she's a baby. she took an ak bullet to her neck and died on her threshold in her mother's arms. paralyzed, bleeding to death. that's usually what you hear on "anderson cooper" about what's going on in iraq, isn't it? it's not what you normally hear about a sunny saturday afternoon in july. beth karas, things have been a little hot and strange in that courtroom, especially yesterday, with the issues going on and then this morning, we were

dipping back and forth into the live courtroom shot. we were seeing all the players gathering, we even listened in for awhile as they were all getting their coffee and getting ready for everything to start. our live picture now shows something entirely different. it's empty and the court officers are walking away, and the judge isn't on the bench, the players aren't there, defense counsel, i can't even see anymore. what's going on in there? >> reporter: assistant state attorney monica gordo addressed the court in open court a few minutes ago and told the judge that the next witness, sam brown, they're looking for him. he's not around. they think that he has health problems. he testified at the hearing on september 17th, he was a witness to the shooting, he sees three shooters, as a matter of fact, he identifies them, at least physical description and a little bit of the guns, and she said she didn't want to go forward without him, because he really kind of sets the testimony for the remaining witnesses to follow him. so she really needs him first.

she can't call a police officer while they're looking for mr. brown and that's what's happening. the judge is waiting for a police officer to arrive. she said we'll take the testimony of that police officer, adjourn for lunch, give the state until 2:00, see if they have mr. brown, and then take it from there. i don't know what's going to happen but monica gordo does not want to go forward without mr. brown. we have no reason to believe that he, too, has been threatened and is fearful. she says he does have health problems and that it's probably related to his health problems but he's been available every day and all of a sudden today, he's not. >> well, we've heard that story before, too, people who have been available testifying on september 17th to one version of the story and then yesterday, shaking so much that a witness actually breaks down on the witness stand saying don't i have rights to protect my children, meaning can't i get the "h" out of here because i am scared. i got to be honest, my first instinct when i hear a witness isn't available at 10:40 in the morning eastern time, is that oh, great, there goes another

one. perhaps falling prey to a threat. but i'm not going to suggest that's what happened here. it's just my first instinct with what i've seen go on in this trial so far. as you mentioned, sam brown, the notes on him, he saw three suspects with guns, one of the black males had an ak-47, he saw only one ak and one hand gun but also said he saw one dark-skinned and two red-skinned people. so real quickly, beth, because i want to get to robi ludwig on this as well, that's the kind of testimony that could help the defendant. that's not the kind of testimony you would think if he's going to say there were three people, that the defendant would not want to be up there on the stand. for instance, not threatened in any way, testimony of that person. isn't that helpful to the defense in some way? >> reporter: there's no way having a third shooter there plays into damon darling and his statement he gave the police was that his friend handed him a chopper, an ak, and also had one himself.

he is also expected to testify although maybe not today. we may hear the videotaped statement that darling gave the police when he was arrested later today. but yes, as with witnesses, it's often the case that the defense can get something helpful to them from a witness, especially in this case. so sam brown clearly is helpful to the prosecution but the defense will also argue that he supports there being yet another shooter. >> can you also tell me in ten seconds or less why javaris andrews isn't a defendant in this case as well? >> reporter: i believe if they had any evidence against him, it was only damon darling pointing the finger at him. >> do we know the ak casings, shell casings from the ak, i think close to two dozen of them at least, only came from one ak? because there are reports that there were two. >> reporter: correct. correct. only came from one, which is why the police don't believe there was another shooter there, which is also why the defense is throwing out the possibility that there was a shell catcher,

brass catcher, attached to the other gun that caught the casings being spit out of the weapon as it was being fired. that has to be the explanation for why they didn't recover casings in another nearby location from a different gun. all 20 casings were from the same gun. >> isn't that clever. with all my experience of shooting aks and actually, i do have some experience shooting aks, there was no shell catcher on it because it's in a war zone. who the heck cares if your casings end up on the ground in a war zone. the real ones over in afghanistan and iraq. that's where i have seen aks before. i want to jump in with this whole thing and let viewers know i'm not for an instant suggesting that damon darling or any of his disciples out there pressured that witness that we have been watching squirm in her seat out of terror. i'm not suggesting that that happened. i am saying it's awfully suspicious that she changed her story like that. then we get a witness this morning who's just mia, missing. beth did say this person, samuel

brown, has health issues. i'm putting it out there but i'm not suggesting that he's been pressured. but i want to know from you -- >> conspiracy theory, right? very dramatic. >> there is a question i want to ask you with your expertise as a psychotherapist. do you need to threaten someone directly in order for that someone to feel a threat? >> no. i mean, somebody could just, you know, one moment, just a knee jerk reaction, be quite honest, then after thinking about it, have time to get more fearful over time and think about the realities of their situation. again, we have to remember that some of these people are living in a very different world where the police can't protect them. they may not have money. people who we might view as evil, they might perceive as something very different. >> like protective in some way? >> exactly. exactly. >> these are damon darling's parents. excuse me. i beg your pardon. sherdavia jenkins' parents. i so take that back.

a positive i apologize profusely. this is shay jenkins mom, she took the stand on day one of the case and her father on the left, who has been very outspoken about the community violence. you're speaking to that as well, the nature in which -- i guess the world in which these people live, who live at the pork 'n' beans complex is just something unless you stepped into those shoes, you will never understand. >> i also think as a society we tend to be a hopeful society so we tend to look at people who come from difficult scenarios and become billionaires which in a way is denying the reality of some of these people's lives, that it is very dangerous. >> how many people just off the top of their heads would come up with the idea, without a direct threat from anybody, as in you testify, you die. they don't hear those words. but how many people who might be part of this might just feel that way and not want to be part of this process? >> well, i think it's, listen, people have a survival instinct,

right? unless you're suicidal, you want to protect yourself and protect your family. what that means in different environments can look very different. you have to remember the court system, even though we see it as, you know, the decider of truth, hopefully, in an ideal situation, does not mean that to everybody. in some cases, the court system is the enemy and they can't really do anything to help you and in fact, you know what, it can even harm you. >> yeah. well, we have also seen this whole snitch factor playing into so much of this. people don't want to be considered as snitches. it's almost as criminal as the criminals you're going to snitch on. our question of the day has been a good one. what's your opinion of florida's so-called "stand your ground" law because it is at the heart of damon darling's defense. he says are you kidding me, i was just defending myself. these parents, though, say different. my baby died and you were firing off an ak, witnesses say you were the first to fire, stand your ground, are you kidding me? but others say please, i have a right to protect myself and my property.

so what do you say? you have only three minutes left to get your e-mail answer of the day in. cnn.com/crime.

living in port poverty. if you can't get a job and identity, where do you seek your power?

so we asked you today in our question of the day, what's your opinion of florida's so-called "stand your ground" law? our best answer today comes from

henry, henry in davie, florida. i live in florida and i consider the "stand your ground" law a protection of my right to protect my home and family from the likes of this defendant. however, i don't think the carrying of an ak on the streets is covered under this law. henry, thank you for your answer. the strangest thing is if you were a law-abiding citizen, you can own an ak if it's registered and the rule is, if you find yourself confronted, you can meet with the same kind of force, including deadly force, even in a crowded environment. trouble with damon darling is, he's an ex-con. ex-cons aren't allowed to be packing heat, let alone aks. so you're absolutely right. he is so not protected in this particular case which makes his defense so fascinating. in that respect, under cross-examination, leroy larose, who turned state's evidence against him, is under cross about where he was walking and why and how. have a listen.

>> defense counsel asked you i think 30 different questions or 30 different times about you kept walking towards the man and you kept walking towards the man. were you walking towards the man on the porch? >> no. >> where were you walking? >> towards my car. >> and why was it that when you first came up, that you went that way? why was it that you didn't, once you went to the row of cars, why didn't you go back the same way you came? >> because it was shorter to go that way. >> showing you state's exhibit 19. can you come back down? when you parked your car, you said you parked it over here on this street, right? >> on this street. on 13th avenue but more north. >> almost toward 67th avenue, is that right?

>> 67th street. >> you were almost toward 67th street? >> yes. >> were you parked near some landmark or object -- >> there was a light post. >> where was that? >> [ inaudible ]. >> we can't hear. >> you need to speak up. >> this might be it down here. >> okay. you were parked somewhere in this area, yes? >> yes. >> and you said you first walked east? is that right? >> yes. >> then you walked towards south, towards this row of cars that are parked diagonally, right? >> right. >> and you went all the way down this way, right? >> yes. >> what's the closest way back to your car from here? >> come back this way. >> now, that second person that you saw with an assault rifle, where was he? >> so i mentioned before that when you are poor and you have no job, and your identity sometimes can be tied to that,

how do you seek your power, your presence, what do you do? robi ludwig, this is your area. is this what we're seeing here? >> also, i want to make it very clear that i am not making excuses for anyone, but there is a human need to feel powerful, important and if you're a man, macho. if you can't get that educationally and if you can't get a job that gives you a good amount of money to live well, then you seek it in these abberant forms, through a huge gun you shouldn't have, saying hey, i'm a real man, or through gangs that give you a sense of family and being important. i think this is an important case not only do we hold the defendant responsible for his actions, but that we also have to look as a society, we have to start making some changes so that people have some real options. >> hey, sue in our facebook page here is saying i'm not sure i would want to testify, especially in front of his friends and family. they have already shown they're not afraid to shoot. if i lived in that area, i would be terrified.

i get it. i wish i could go on but i'm flat out of time. certainly we will continue with this. robi ludwig, great work today. i appreciate you coming in. you're so smart. >> so are you. >> and pretty. >> so are you. >> and fabulous. you don't sound like brenda vaccaro like i do. beth karas, thank you for your insightful reporting. we'll scoot over to jack ford and see what's up next on "courtside." >> after that drama yesterday, we'll be back. they should start any moment with new witnesses on the stand. the parade still going on here. question becomes now just what sort of impact did all of that yesterday have potentially on this jury? we'll take a look at the new witnesses, their testimony, talk about what happened yesterday, and perhaps some more drama today. >> you know, i've got to ask you about something, jack. since you're a former prosecutor, casey on my facebook page has been saying i think there's witness tampering going on. others have asked can't they protect witnesses? what can you do for these people? >> you can certainly protect witnesses but oftentimes, what

it requires is a huge investment by those witnesses. oftentimes they have to move. if it's a major deal, you're talking about witness relocation programs. so if you have a woman that we saw here, probably doesn't want to move out of her community, doesn't want to have her entire life changed up -- >> seven kids. >> yeah. sometimes this is what you see. but you know what, i don't think it was such a bad problem, actually, for the prosecution. i think the jurors might get a sense of the fear this woman, they might look at the defendant because of that. >> i will be watching your show because i really want to see how this gets under way. jack, thanks so much. we'll be watching for you. thanks, everyone, for watching. see you tomorrow. we're shopping for car insurance, and our friends said we should start here. good friends -- we compare our progressive direct rates, apples to apples, against other top companies, to help you get the best price.

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