neil: you don't see anything changing that? >> not for a long time, not with 9.8% unemployment. neil: i want to thank our panelists, the place for business news, the place for don imus 6:00 a.m. on fox business network. no rest for the tax and spenders. senate majority leader harry hay reid tan kelling the october recess to your through the massive healthcare bill but some say it has nothing to do with health but everything to do with key elections in two states. welcome to "forbes on fox." let's go in focus with steve forbes, elizabeth mcdonnell and quenton harding and now, new jersey and virginia, a month away from gubernatorial elections which many believe will be referendums on healthcare an government spending. both democrats are behind in the

polls right now. steve, why is reid trying to rush a vote on healthcare through before these elections? >> because they fear they might lose votes. in 1993 when clinton lost both new jersey and virginia and new york city with rudy jewelian ny, he never could get anything through that congress even though he had majorities in the house and senate. that's what they fear here. they fear that the more time people have to see the grisly details of this bill, the more support it loses. they want to rush it through so people don't know what's in there. >> that isn't working for me. in new jersey, corzine is catching up because the crazy far right candidate is draining off from the other far right candidate. in virginia, the guy has lost half his lead. he is probably going to win but he has lost half his lead in the past couple of months. nonetheless, they are in a rush r that is a true thing. there is 1,147 different parts to this puzzle and you want to go slow, but healthcare, you

have to work it out in the first year or people get caught up in fear mongering and it never closes. >> in addition to working it out, don't you at least have to read the bill? the fact is we should eade the bill and understand it before we pass it. >> key members of congress have not read the bill and even the c.b.o. is struggling to keep up with cost estimating the bill because it is rapidly changing. 600 amendments thrown in. it took three days to just get over discussion on one key provision, whether you wait 72 hours before voting on an amendment, but this will turn the blue dog democratss' backbones into oatmeal if the democrats lose virginia and new jersey, and it didn't help much that we lost the olympic bid for chicago. the president also wasted a lot of political capital on that, so as his approval ratings are coming down, remember, the president asked for a vote before the august recession. that didn't happen. the key here is the blue dog democrats are starting to

waiver. >> so this is all about politics and not the economics of whether this is a good bill? >> the yell hoe dog democrats have been waivering for years but we are using the word your. this issue came up when when i informs high school. we have been debating this for more than a decade. clinton got one shot. when he didn't get it, we never went back to discuss it again. this is not a rush. >> but we're rushing this particular bill so fast that people haven't even read a part of it let alone the whole thing. >> be that's absolutely right. the race i'm looking at is for the u.s. senate in arkansas where the incumbent blanches a democrat and she is totally embracing it. she is getting pummeled by the guy running after her, hendren, who is against obama-care. that is a ace that that is telling us that people the more they find out about it, the more they are against t. >> shouldn't economics and whether we end up with better healthcare trump politics? >> it certainly should, but when

you're talking about new jersey, the great corrupt state in which i live, what people are really worried about here is property traxes. ultimately we need a bill here. what the democrats are really afraid of is that the republicans will throw out a spin in the gears again. they will come up with death pan els and so on. it is easy to be obstructionists here. the fact is that we will probably get crummy legislation out of d.c. but if it helps to cover the 47 million people without insurance, it will be a marginal imp.o.. >> but if it covers it at everybody else's expense, it could wreck the economy, steve. >> it would put the economy in a sick bay and it also would raise taxes an hurt the economy, and it keeps the basic flaws of the system in place, which is employer based systems instead of giving power to the people. democrats are supposed to be in power and in favor of the people, but they aren't. >> you admit that it has to be

part of the solution to get doctors and patients closer together. >> i agree with that. that is a big reason why this legislation will be bad is that it will cover some of the uninsured but all the benefits will be means tested away for average american workers and they will feel like they're paying for something and not getting anything. that's a disaster. that's what they should be working on right now. >> the key for americans is the mandate. you're going to pay a fee or tax if you don't buy health insurance. that's onerous for a lot of americans in this country and i think steve is right with nationalized systems, you don't see biotech discoveries in places like new zealand so whether or not we get true healthcare reform, what you can get bet on see something more embarrassing disclosures about high pay at health insurance companies. they will be brought under criticism in an effort to ram this thing through. they will do it on the backs of embarrassing c.e.o.'s and they are overpaid, let's face it. >> bottom line, if this does

pass in a form that most congressmen and senators haven't aide, is that going to be good or bad for the economy? >> well, you know, right now, you say americans don't have healthcare. they do. they have relatively expensive emergency room care, which is one of the reasons why we pay more than any other country and show up really badly in the health stats. you think we pass this and it gets worse and more expensive? i don't see how. but the fact is the fix is in. max baucus killed the public option this week. he has received millions from healthcare lobbyists. it is not going to happen. >> the american people killed the public option. i don't think it was one politician. it was the propest of the american people saying we don't believe you can create a government bure cassie for no money. >> letting people shop across state lines would give you all the competition you want n terms of public outcome, we do better than any other country on cancer forms an an heart disease and longevity. >> we don't live as long! >> on longevity, quentin, sorry,

when you take into the fact that we have more guns and drive more than other people, our longevity, quentin is better than any other country in the world. where healthcare counts we do better than anyone. >> the mortality stats were criticized and the reason we rated poorly is because we report infant mortal tizz. a lot of countries just put babies up on the shelf to pass away. >> neil, go ahead. >> it seems to me, it was interesting. the head of the mayo chinnic, dennis ortiz has been praised by the white house and he said the tenure of this debate is heartbreaking and disgusting. i think the bottom line is you can say we have a better infant mortality rate or if you take away guns we live fairly long, but the fact of the matter is we're spending twice as much as our competitors and we're not

getting much for it. >> go to other hospitals around the world and you will know how much we are gretting for t. >> if our healthcare system is so bad, why is it when people get sick they come here? >> the proof is in the pudding. >> healthcare counts a lot after 60. after you are 6 5, you get a public option and that helps us out. >> the public option is medicare. >> they want to destroy the best part, medicare advantage. they are vub si died $90 billion by private insurers. what makes them think they can do it with this you this bill. >> med cairdz and medicare are losing $100 billion a year in waste and fraud and we want to build on that model? >> healthcare costs in this country, half of it is covered through the government in medicaid and medicare. >> if you think you have seen class warfare, wait until you see a scary plan deep inside the

healthcare reform, the more more money you make, the more likely you will end up in jail. hear about it at the bottom of the hour, but first, michael moore wants you to believe that capitalism is dead with his big flick hitting the screen this weekend. why, sadly, it is taking t@@pp .

keep it here on fox. i'm jamie colby.

>> there has to be a rebel onbetween the people who have nothing and the people who have it all. >> michael moore rolling out his anti-capitalist movie nationwide this week. he is the toast of the town with liberals in l.a. and d.c. and you would think he would be the toast of socialist europe as well, but they are falling back in love with capitalism over there, voting in tax cutting politicians, so who has got it right, steve? >> capitalism has got it right. when it is practiced, it works. even with michael moore. there are people r. limousine liberals who don't like cal tallism. >> he has said capitalism has never helped him. >> is he giving it away his mon, his millions? no. he is buying into halliburton. capitalism provides employment. george bush didn't practice it with cheapening the dollar. get the ulessite, capitalism

works. >> they had their experiment with socialism in europe and the folks didn't like it and they're voting it out. >> that's true, but the fact of the matter is we're going more towards socialism, but what really surprises me is how the dyed in the wools in this country thinks the system is onreproach as if wall street did nothing wrong and if the liars didn't tell some untruths. we have to be truthful about our own capitalist system or we will have and increasing shift towards socialism. >> there is enough criticism against capitalism. we don't applaud people who broke the law or acted stupidly, but that doesn't mean capitalism is wrong. >> look, you can reform capitalism. that is not calling for and at tack on capitalism t needs to be reformed in this country. there are only two people behind bars from the credit bubble bursting and the bear stearns managers an 16 bankers from the s and s&l crisis put behind

bars. michael moore puts as an example of countries he likes, france, japan, germany, they are all capitalist countries. it is ironic that he is holding up the same structures that he is criticizing. >> it is a sad day when the europeans have to teach us how good capitalism is. >> socialism or capitalism, it's kind of ironic that he is trying to reason it out this week when ken lewis, the head of bank of america, a bank that still owes me $4 45 billion that he owned it last year gets to retire with a mere $53 million. don't worry, america, we haven't changed. we still look out for the fat cats. >> the fact is that the europeans -- >> what's up with that? ought europeans had their socialist experiment. they said it doesn't work. we want to go back to capitalism. can they teach us a lesson about capitalism now? >> i hope so. there is those that say history swings like a pendulum back and forth and that we're going back

and forth and with europe moving to the right and germany moving to the right, i think it's different. i think you should always move towards capitalism which is the most effecient market mechanism for e warding success and punishing failure. we shouldn't be chopping off the heads of wall street c.e.o.'s to make an example of them as we just did again with ken lewis. >> if there is this pendulum will we have to go whole hog into socialism before we do what the europeans doing? >> i don't think so but we have to start owning up to capital i'm many failings and i'm talking about crony capitalists. these are the people who are politically connected and that get rich at the expense of the rest of us because they are politically connected. examples, government employees. fat cat bankers who pull down $20 million bonuses paid for by taxpayers and i'm not talking about ken lewis. i'm talking about fannie mae. >> they rely on government connections. we're all against the government handouts. >> you make a distinction

between political entrepreneurs like fannie an freddie and truly entrepreneur like apple and microsoft and starbucks and others who do it the real way. there is a difference between the two. go back to the history of the railroad. you had the same distinction between political entrepreneurs who built the railroads that cost three times as much that were shoddy and those that did it right like james j. hill of the great northern railroad, not a penny of government subsidy built a great railroad r. >> remember, apple, dell, microsoft, all started out as small businesses, and so this government needs to appreciate the entrepreneurial spirit in this country, and, you know, the issue is can we do it? can we bring that spirit back with the tax and spend policies the way they're going? >> lot of our policies now will hurt the small and midsized entrepreneurs trying to get a leg up. >> that's right. we're trying to modify capitalism to make the highs lower and the lows higher to even it out for everyone. what you do is you risk blunting the positive impact of that.

capitalism isn't a system of non-failures. >> quentin, your point is a good one. the fact is that it is the taxpayers' deep pockets that is paying off the big guys, not the limb and medium sized entrepreneurs. >> wall street has locked up against the small guy right now and the irony is we can wait for wall street to unlock or the government can step with small business loans. maybe the socialist answer will be better for small business in the short term. >> steve is right, some of these people that think of themselves as capitalists like fannie mae operators, they were pseudocapitallists. >> the federal reserve hasn't gotten small business loans flowing again yet they're patting themselves on the back that they saved capitalism f they destroyed the small businesses. coming up next, i think we're dangerously close to double digit unemployment now. just wait. what happened on chill that that may make these job numbers look

good and it has nothing toddd

>> well, the same week we found out 9.8% of americans are out of work, democrats in the senate released their clean energy jobs an american power act. they say their global warming bill will heat up job creation in the u.s. but jack says the flip side is it will melt down our job market. how, jay. >> that's right, david. look, people are backing this bill, loads of people from the west coast, henry waxman, barbara boxer, people advocating for this climate change bill are throws who don't live near coal

producing states like ohio, west virginia, michigan, where heavy industry uses traditional energy to employ its workers to make goods. they're going to get hid hard. those jobs will be lost as a result of this. >> mike, will it help jobs or hurt them? >> this will definitely help jobs. modernizing our electric infrastructure and power infrastructure and industrial infrastructure will do nothing but create jobs but good jobs, jobs that people will want and can make careers out of. you would not see the kind of just make work jobs here, because the entire electric infrastructure needs to be rebuilt. >> a few handful of companies like pse and g will benefit from this, one of the big utilities but by and large the average working family will suffer. the c.b.o. estimates budgets will go up by $175 and three trillion dollars will be sucked out of the economy in the first two years. >> these are the exiendz kind of

expenses big companies can absorb but medium and little companies will have a tough time with it. >> not worrying about that, i he something else about this, and that is the bad things about this. if all you do is move from friewl x to fuel y is to have more people creating the fuel, you have made a bad move. creating jobs is bad. what you have to do is -- >> no! >> yes! >> come on! >> creating jobs is good. >> no, no,. you're thinking like a politician, david. >> i'm talking like a normal person with common sense. >> no, common sense says i only want to move from fuel x to fuel y and i want cleaner air, is maybe what we'll get. >> is it good for jobs or bad for jobs? >> horrible. each job they create there, you lose two to three jobs in the traditional sectors. this is expensive energy in replace of cheapener jy. in terms of it being worse than $175, and it will be worse,

like $3,000 per family. it is nothing about creating new energy like nuclear energy, coal sequestration and new asphalt to to get better streets, basic stuff that works. >> there are extrude i dids to show for recovery green job you loose two in the regular sector. >> i agree with steve. we should consider nuclear to be green energy and create jobs there as well. that would alleviate the problem, if we compromised on that and just realized that nuclear energy is green energy, we could create jobs there and it will be great. >> i like the way he says nuclear, by the way. go ahead, bill. >> i want to make a footnote since i'm in a dispute with my boss steve here. in addition to creating jobs it will move jobs. one of the effects of this bill will be to take manufacturing jobs in the u.s. and move them to more polluting countries like china. that's real bad. >> that's absolutely right. the good news is that the bill may not make it because ten democrats proposed a tariff on

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>> wynn resort. a huge demand for their ipo in china. i think there is big growth there. >> bill? >> high rollers are becoming low rollers. >> high rollers becoming low rollers? >> only in the u.s.. >> chesapeake energy. tell us about it. >> natural gas is depressed right now t will come roaring back when everybody taxes carbon, which is going to happen. >> bill forgets that nancy pelosi thinks natural gas is a fossil fuel so that will fall under the umbrella the carbon tax and plan. >> larry likes this plan. >> number three on our list, $27 billion is his personal fortune. shareholders can get a piece of that by riding oracle back. >> it can only go down. you don't think there is a pot coming? >> no, he has already