thank you for watching "fox and friends." we have special healthcare coverage next live from washington, d.c. with neil cavuto. tomorrow morning, join us extra hour early for coverage of the healthcare vote. >> 6:00 a.m. eastern. >> 6:00 a.m. eastern. see you then. captioned by closed captioning services, inc healthcare showdown. what's really up, doc? now, live from the nation's capitol, neil cavuto. >> welcome, everybody. well, do they have it? do they have the 216 votes they're going to need to make the largest piece of domestic legislation law? are they going to have that? and are we going to have what some people have been calling new deal ii, a reality in the next 24 to 36 hours? it's too early to tell. but democrats are already insisting they're getting there and they're making a great deal of progreprogress. battle here is not only

whether they have the 216 votes, but whether the means by which they're getting those votes, congressional budget office score is reliable. we're getting indications from the c.b.o. they'll look to potentially restore a lot with new data taking into account medicare disbursement to doctors. some of them have been complaining they're really hurt by this and the best thing to do would be to more generously compensate for them or at least curtail the cuts in medicare. if that were to happen, obviously, it changes the c.b.o. math. all of that has to be decided likely in the hours ahead. later on today, president obama will be going to the building behind me to meet with the democratic caucus, all 253 members. many of whom are already guaranteed no votes on this thing. 36 by last count. who are going to more or less be there to hear the president and his pitch, but beyond that, just sort of

hear the big guy out. that is set for 3:00 p.m. harry reid has already skipped a political fundraising event in nevada to make sure he is here for that big event, again at 3:00 p.m. eastern time. then we have the tea partiers. they are here right now and they are going to be coming probably in droves. you might be able to see some of them behind me. they're beginning to assemble at the west lawn at the capitol. some of them, believe it or not, have been stuck in traffic getting in this city, but they promise to come we're told by the thousands. all right. also this hour, we are going to be hearing from the likes of people who are very much involved in the vote. you heard a lot about the democratic congressman altmire, who is very much sort of wooed and cajoled to join everybody and make sure he was going to be on board. even a personal meeting with the white house did not change that. we're going to hear from don imus as well. the radio icon on what he

makes of this fight. mark levin, another radio icon but in his legal foundation role here challenging the constitutionality of the so-called slaughter amendment, the new rule that would effectively mean the house doesn't necessarily formally vote yea or nay on legislation. tom delay will be here as well. the former majority leader. who better than the hammer to count the votes here? right now, to congressman altmire who joins us on where he stands right now, indicating late last night it would definitely be a no. congressman, you were certainly wooed appreciably by no less than the president of the united states. still a no. why still a no? >> i think a lot of people were wooed. in the end, i had to vote for my district, and i have serious policy concerns about the bill. there is 135,000 medicare beneficiaries in my district and i don't think this bill would have been fair to them. a lot of them are on medicare

advantage. in the end, cost has to be an issue. as we talked many times, i was waiting to see a way this brought down the cost of healthcare. unfortunately, it doesn't. it just moves money around and changes who is paying the bill, shifts the burden from one group of people to another but it doesn't change the healthcare delivery system in a way to bring down the cost of healthcare. >> neil: all right. when you met with the president earlier in week, congressman, how did that go? what did he say? what did you say? what? >> it's been an ongoing conversation. i'm on a committee of jurisdiction that began taking up the bill in the summer, and of course, had the vote in the fall. it's a continuing conversation about what my concerns has been. the president was very precise about what the details of the bill were and how they felt they had addressed a lot of issues i had raised. in the end -- >> neil: sorry, sir. did you tell him where you were leaning and you would be hard-pressed to go the other

way? >> i've had a conversation about my vote, yes. >> neil: was he disappointed? was he angry? what did he say? >> no. it's a vote for my district. i have things unique about my democrat with regards to medicare advantage and i have concerns that i don't feel were addressed enough in the bill with regard to bringing down the cost. i think i have to vote for my district first. i'm a representative. >> neil: okay. so there is this meeting, the entire democratic caucus, all 253 members, includes you. we'll be meeting with the president when he comes to the capitol later today. harry reid is going to be there. are you going to be there? >> i plan to be there, yes. >> neil: are the no guys, you know, there are 34 to 36 of you. hard to tell. are you in a separate cordoned off area? how is that going to go? >> i don't think so. it's open seating. i want to hear what the

president has to say. it's a historic vote regardless of the side you're on. everybody would agree with that. it appears it will be a razor thin margin. every vote is going to count. we'll all be there to hear what he has to say. >> neil: what do you think, congressman, to some of your colleagues defying the majority will of their constituents? maybe for a variety of good reasons, whatever. but the vast majorities of whom argue this is not good and don't want their congressman to vote for this. what do you think of that? >> i'm not going to question the motives of any member. i can only judge what i'm doing with regard to my vote. i have to be accountable to my constituents. it's clear the overwhelming majority oppose the bill. again, i have very serious consideration with the policy of the bill as well. when you put the two together, no vote is the right vote for my district. >> neil: quickly, sir. assuming it does pass, a big leap i grant you, are you

worried how the leadership will treat you, how the president will treat you going forward? >> i can't be worried about that. my main concern is i have to live the rest of my life in western pennsylvania and look my family, friends, and neighbors in the eye about the biggest vote of my career and i have to do what i feel is right. i'm confident i made the right decision. >> neil: congressman, always good having you. thank you very, jury m very muc. >> thank you. >> neil: at this hour, there is a meeting of the so-called rules committee in the house. it might seem arcane, but nothing arcane about what could be going on today. this is the committee, remember, that came up with the so-called "deem" rule that would effectively mean not formally vote up or down on healthcare but sort of deeming a vote. without getting into mechanics, suffice it to say the four republican minority members of the committee, have a slew of amendments, over 100, that could slow

down the process or delay the vote. our producer chad joins me on the phone. what can we expect out of the rules meeting? how long could it drag on? >> neil, it's chad. i'm hearing somebody else here on the line. >> neil: all right. we'll try to correct that. but go ahead. okay. we're having problems with chad hearing me. >> i'm here, new york. hello. new york? >> neil: if you could fix that while i talk here. what we're looking at with this rules committee, and the reason it gets such attention, this could be at the least a vehicle by which republicans who are no fans of this measure, all 178 republicans are dead set against this, manage to find a way to pass this. we have the former house majority leader tom delay joining me, as good a count as anything staging something forand against on -- forand against on the hill. you see what is going on. are the votes there>> not

right now. hard count is 31 to 33 democrat noes, which means that the noes are at 209-211. which means they're only four away from killing this bill. and -- >> neil: okay, you need 38 democrat democrats if republicans hope to stop it. >> actually 37. >> neil: all 178 republicans are against. >> 215 is a dead bill. >> neil: interesting. >> 215. if you tied 215-215, the bill does not pass. i'm focussed on the noes. >> neil: interesting. >> if they get 215, it won't pass. they're four away from getting 215. there's about ten pro-life democrats that are holding firm. and speaker pelosi is in a box she cannot get out of, because she cannot give them what they want. if she does, she loses 50

pro-abortion democrats. >> neil: in other words you might bring in bart stupak and the other midwestern largely catholic democratic representatives, but you lose tens of more pro-life. >> yeah. exactly. she had offered them last night a vote in this deeming rule on con current resolution, which means, resolution that has to be passed by the house and senate. >> neil: wouldn't the pro-life group hate that? >> the pro-abortion group would hate that. they would vote against the rule and the rule couldn't pass. >> neil: in other words, you have to be very careful if you're speaker pelosi the deals you make one with group backfire and have you lose another group. >> right. >> neil: does she get through it and find the mechanics or the means to get it through? >> i just think she does. i don't know. it's really up to the american people. if the american people will support the ten pro-life democrats and show them the support to give them the strength to hold firm, then she will lose. >> neil: all right.

we're going to chad shortly. but this rules committee thing, and all the amendments and the republicans trying to slow it down. if you're right, they could be slowing down inevitable, delaying the inevitable. >> no. delay is good. [ laughter ] >> neil: very good. all right, tom delay, thank you. good seeing you. now back to chad. i hope we got the audio jinx fixed. can you hear me? >> i do, neil. >> neil: so, to the rules committee and what they're doing and what could come out of it. what are you hearing? >> the rules committee is the speaker's committee where they put together the final package of the reconciliation measure which will be on the floor yesterday. almost every piece of legislation that goes to the house floor must first get a rule to tell you what amendments are in order, how long people will be allowed to talk so on and so forth. that's what they do right now. the interesting rub in this, they will attach a self-executing provision to the rule, which will basically when they approve the rule to get the

reconciliation bill up on the floor tomorrow, this will pass the senate bill. it's something that is used from time to time. it's not talked about much. the very arcane, in the weeds, parliamentary procedure here and it has a lot of people really upset. some republicans are saying well, there are not going to be a final vote on the senate bill. there will be a vote on the rule, and that will be the vote that passes the senate bill and sends it to the president to be the healthcare reform law of the land at least for now. >> neil: so, as things stand now and all the amendments that largely the republican minority, the four of them want to push, can they run out the clock? can the majority say we're putting a time limit on this, so you can't yap forever? what? >> the rules committee expects it to go for a long time. in the house, you have limited debate. the reason you have limited debate in the house is because of the rules committee. they'll set up tomorrow how long they will debate the

reconciliation package. you can have almost unlimited numbers of amendments be offered. they are close to 100. only a couple offered by democrats. grayson and moore of wisconsin, and the others have all come from the republican side. this is the last-ditch shot to change the bill here. i almost said compared it to sysafis, the guy that rolls the rock up the hill and it comes back down on him each time. that's what happens especially when you have the speaker on board. that's what will probably happen to republicans today. >> neil: thank you. we have a reluctant bluedog everyone is trying to woo join us. hernry cuellar and the latest counts we are getting from people in the know in the building and whether they add up to what tom delay is adding up. who are we to doubt tom? we're not going to even try. pot bottom line, beautiful day in washington. traffic with the tea partiers

trying to get here. it may affect how many get here. they want to protest this affair. in the middle of the you can't make this stuff up department, we have the national marathon going on. thousands of runners starting at the stadium and they're running away from the capitol. away. more after this.  (announcer) we're in the energy business.

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capitol. neil cavuto here monitoring the sausage making up close and personal. on a grand scale, this is about as big as it gets. the single biggest domestic piece of legislation since the new deal. many argue certainly since medicare in 1966. that was then. this is about a $940 billion. some say excess of $1 trillion measure. now much depends, of course, later on when we get the final score of this from the congressional budget office, but that is later on. with us right now a guy who is being wooed aggressively both side, texas democrat qua henry cuellar. where do you stand? >> i looked at the c.b.o. numbers and the bluedogs with promising reduction of $38 billion on the deficit in the next ten years. $1.2 trillion after that. but i'm also now looking at what sort of impact will it have on the state budget this texas?

i used to be on the budget for ten years in texas. been talking to some of my former colleagues to make sure we, you know, we analyze the impact that it has on texas when you expand medicaid expansiexpansion. in texas we have about 5.9 million individuals without insurance. texas without a doubt would become the biggest winner of funding that would flow in the state, $120 billion. the other thing, i'm a big tort reform democrat. i had language in the house bill, not in the senate bill. i think they should have tort reform, liability, limitations and i'm still working on it to see what we need to do to make sure what the texas medical association needed to protect the state tort laws is somehow we need to get this done. >> neil: all right. well, it sounds like you have a lot of ongoing concerns, but nancy pelosi has indicated that the bill is

largely as-is. that, you know, there is no changing down the road. she could look at adding things and that sort of stuff, but if i understand her correctly, congressman, the bar is closed. no more add-ons. if that were the case -- if it were, and i know it's a big leap because i know things change rapidly in this city, are you going to vote no or yes? >> well, again, i'm still looking at the medicare expansion and how it will affect the state of texas. there are certain numbers that have come out. i've been talking with henry waxman and i'm waiting for analysis on the impact in texas. sort reform, i intend -- >> neil: i understand your concerns. if the c.b.o., the congressional budget office comes out later and says the efforts to compensate doctors for the medicare-related cuts they're looking at significantly add to the deficit and potentially cost even in your state, are you

off this? >> well, at this time, i'm still doing the thoughtful analysis that i think i need to do. this is my district. this is the people that i represent. i'm still looking at that. i will return before the vote and make a decision. >> neil: but is the other stuff true that you're not taking the president's calls? >> put it this way. the white house has called, with all due respect to the white house, this is a decision i need to make for my district. it's not the white house decision. it's my decision. at the end of the day, i have to go back to my constituents and say this is the best decision i make either way. >> neil: i understand that. so the president calls and they say it's president obama on line one, you just don't pick up? >> the white house calls, i decided not to return the phone calls. >> neil: man! >> i'm going to see the president later on this afternoon. >> neil: all right, congressman, thank you very much. of course, he will be seen along with the many democratic colleagues when he

descends on capitol hill later today. congressman joe sestak will join us, crucial vote in his own right. what he does see that the other congressman did not. then mark levin suing over slaughter. the great one after this. [ male announcer ] before he changed the world... tear down this wall. [ male announcer ] ...or led a nation... i nald reagan do solemnly swear. [ male announcer ] ...or governed a state... you and ve a rendezvous with destiny. [ male announcer ] ...he inspired our company... with his optimism, his belief in innovation, and his entrepreneurial spirit. [ man ] for general electric, here is ronald reagan. ♪

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>> neil: all right. do not assume if this healthcare thing passes tomorrow in a vote that it's a done deal that republicans have certainly other measures. you've heard of states that will be protesting the constitutionality of all of this. perhaps, they will be closely watching mark levin, the radio show host, landmark legal foundation scholar, who sees an opening here to challenge the constitutionality, itself, of what is going on. mark joins me on the phone right now. mark, what are you up to? >> here is the problem, neil. the problem is that the house

is very schizophrenic about what it's doing and very devious. let me explain because some is not well-understood. they are putting out a rule, slaughter rule. that basically says we'll vote on reconciliation, amendments to the senate bill and deem the senate bill passed. they're not going to vote on the senate bill. they're going to amend a bill they haven't passed. that's not all of it. then what they're going to do, this is a big problem, is break out the senate bill part they never voted on from the reconciliation part they did vote on, send it to the president. he is going to sign that and claim it's the law. so they're going to combine them for the purposes of passing, they say, the senate bill. they're going to break out the senate bill and send it to the president because then it matches up to the senate. he is going to sign it. you can't have it both ways. say it's one and the same bill. now it's not one and the same bill. that's number one. number two, if they go the

reconciliation route, the slaughter bill, the senate has never voted on the reconciliation bill. in other words, you have to send a unitary, a single bill to the president that has the exact language of both bodies. that's what the constitution compels. what they're sending to the president is a piece of paper, it's not a bill. it can't be a llaw. this clever attempt at what they're hoping is that the court will not look behind what they're doing. that the court will give deference to congress and the court will say we're not going to get into this, this is a political issue. that is the hump we're going to fight, the hump we believe we can get over because we don't believe any house in congress has ever done this. >> neil: now, when democrats charge republicans did this plenty of times on this deem thing, are they right? >> who cares? political precedent is not relevant in a courtroom.

what a court wants to know is what is your constitutional argument, can you match up the constitutional argument with a particular statute or act by a body or an individual. the argument that hey, they did it, too, and they did it 50 times has absolutely no relevance. i would argue, first of all, they didn't do it 50 times. that people are lumping in all kind of technical corrections and revenue issues with something utterly fundamental. >> neil: if i could stop you for a minute. you're a genius with this stuff. if you were to succeed with this, then it would effectively negate is entire legislation, right? >> what we're saying to the judge, and if he doesn't rule with us to this circuit court, they don't rule with us to the supreme court -- at those levels, the government will go up the chain, too -- the president -- >> neil: you would go up to the supreme court? >> we would try and so would the government, if they lose. the point we're going to make

is the president, the attorney general, the h.s.s. secretary and treasury secretary have no constitutional authority to enforce a non-existent law. so yes, it would stop this. if congress wants to pass this law, they have to follow the constitution. it's really that simple. and they can't get the votes to do it. that's their problem. >> neil: what if in the end they decide they're getting increasingly comfortable with the count and it looks more and more likely they'll be over the 216 for hard to say -- and then they meet in a room and say we can skip this and vote yea or nay and you're done, right? >> obviously, we wouldn't challenge under this rule. there are other constitutional possibilities, some of the states already made the points we made over the week, which is to impose on an individual a mandate that their government tells them they must buy health insurance, buy a certain type of health insurance, even if they don't want it. >> neil: so you would move on

to another legal challenge? >> my friend, this is about liberty. i never surrender and we're going never going to surrender. the left never gives up and we never give up either. >> neil: mark levin best selling author and legal foundation scholar host. good to see you. >> you're looking good in the heat. keep it up. >> neil: it's very hot, very, very hot. thanks, buddy. appreciate it. reaction right now from congressman joe sestak. all right. you know, prominent democrat, one that -- boy, if you believe the gossip you were even offered a job. we'll get into that. this legal challenge issue, what do you think? >> i think he's absolutely right. he has the right to do that. if he wants to, so fine. i think you were right, too. the two years before i got down here, the republicans used it 36 times. every time they added to the debt, they didn't want a direct vote on it so they did this maneuver. >> neil: but what he's saying, congressman is right or wrong doesn't justify --

>> i don't disagree with you. i'm not defending him. i wish both sides would stop doing this. they even do it for congressional pay cuts. let's be open and vote directly. at the end of the day, neil, i also have to sit back and say now, what are we voting on today? in my mind, i made it clear when i went for congress, ran for congress a few years ago. when i was running for the bill, no longer would people be able not to get coverage, health coverage because they had a preexisting condition, no longer would women have to pay twice as much as -- >> neil: you were on board in the beginning. >> absolutely. >> neil: you would prefer a simple up-or-down vote, right? >> absolutely. >> neil: you're annoyed with your party -- >> i'm annoyed at both sides. they want transparency. let's get to what we're talking about, not the real process. it's that 700 million pennsylvanians will lose their healthcare and tomorrow another 700. we've done nothing since the clinton administration lost

its effort to provide healthcare, that the congressional budget office said would reduce the deficit and reduce premiums. >> neil: you said what works in this is better than nothing? >> without question. >> neil: let me ask you the other thing, in order to get you out of the senate race, the white house offered you a job; is that true? >> i got asked that question a few weeks ago. it's something that happened last summer. i asked a direct question and i answered honestly. yes. to go beyond that is going to get us -- >> neil: that's kind of weird. >> to be honest, yeah. for politics, it's -- >> neil: i -- >> 31 years in the united states navy. i believe in accountability, transparentsy and honesty. >> neil: you didn't find it bizarre? >> well, look, right on the capitol, they made a deal with arlen spector after they bush to come on for the 60th vote. where did it get us? nowhere. >> neil: understood. >> that process is what people are tired of. >> neil: thank you very much.

>> thank you for having me. >> neil: capitol hill, the congressman and i are talking. a lot of tea partiers, coming here by the thousands to make a statement, protesting a bill they say is a disaster. and here we go. "what do you mean homeowners insurance doesn't cover floods?" "a few inches of water caused all this?" "but i don't even live near the water." what you don't know about flood insurance may shock you. including the fact that a preferred risk policy starts as low as $119 a year. for an agent, call the number on your screen.

>> neil: man, oh, man, things just get weirder and w eer and in this town. we're hearing that bart stupak's 11:00 a.m. eastern time press conference has been put off indefinitely.

you might remember, stupak is the man who was raising serious concerns about the abortion language in this bill. he was saying that it was not strict enough, and, you know, they're trying to make sure that the house leadership at least can get stupak and maybe about six or eight others who are of a similar mind, pro-life mind on this, to get their support. the problem with that is that whatever concessions you make to that group, then you tick off the pro-choice group and back and forth we go. interestingly enough, we're learning right now that stupak's 11:00 a.m. press conference scheduled, like i say, 20, 25 minutes from now, is now off for the time being. our rich edson is following this. rich, what is going on? >> reporter: we're hearing the latest that the stupak language, that congressman stupak wanted to include in this, he wanted tighter abortion funding restrictions and it appears congress is

not going to put them in and the house democrats and leadership decided they're not going to put the stupak language in, as it's known and it appears as congressman stupak is not on board. democrats feel, nancy pelosi and the leadership feel they have enough votes without this coalition of staunch pro-lifers or that the coalition has fallen apart and it's just congressman stupak and a few others. they're getting close. we've heard that they are thinking they have possibly enough votes of the undecideds to do this and felt they didn't have to make tighter abortion funding restrictions, neil. >> neil: so he was going to raise all of these concerns at his presser. who is to say it's not the opposite of what you're saying? not that i'd ever doubt you, rich. but they're trying to wiggle out just that, a deal so he can come to reporters maybe an hour later, two hours later and say well, i've got a deal. >> i refuse to rule out anything on capitol hill. especially in negotiations when we are thinking of holding a vote in 20, 36

hours or so. that very well could be a possibility. the last that we had heard from the house rules committee -- they're meeting right now to make the final tweaks to this, to prepare whether or not they'll use the slaughter rule. that is something you talked about in the last segment. the final changes they are making to the healthcare overhaul we heard last from the rules committee they were not going to include any changes to the abortion funding restrictions. >> neil: all right. rich, fascinating developments. if you're right and they think they can go along with this, without the stupak-led anti-abortion crowd, that in itself is a very significant development. all right, rich, we'll be going back to you later. thank you in the meantime, my friend. now to what is happening on capitol hill, you have seen and heard a lot from tea partiers, they're descending on the capitol like locusts. thousands of them we're told. we were getting reports that a lot of them were stuck in traffic, all the major arteries in the district were clogged with construction and everything else. but bottom line, a lot of the guys couldn't get in, and haven't gotten in, but enough

have already they're making their views known and they are going to hold rallies throughout the weekend to voice their displeasure at something they say is a huge mistake. and tea party rally speaker, anna, good to have you. what is going on? how many do you expect? many are caught in traffic. what can you tell us in? >> the crowd is growing. when i got here, there weren't a lot of people but the buses are coming in. it heard from my people in pennsylvania they were stuck in traffic outside of d.c. just from my area, i have eight buses coming here today. we in pennsylvania, we have a lot of buses coming down. people are excited and they feel like this is our last chance to let the people here at the house know we don't want them to pass the bill. we're totally against this. this is unconstitutional. >> neil: ana, assuming they're getting close to having the votes, if not more than the votes they need to pass, this you might have just heard our prior reporter saying that this congressman

stupak, the press conference has been put off. maybe because they're not going to make a deal with him. nancy pelosi is not going to make concessions, amendment or other amendments to console hhim. he's off. his pro-life friends are off. the calculus seems to be on the part of the house leadership, we don't need you. if that is true, this thing is going through. >> right. they're going to ram this through. they're going to true to push this down our throats. you know what? we are going to fight like hell to repeal this bill if it goes through. not going to fight this bill -- because this is just the beginning, neil. this is government control. after this bill, there is going to be amnesty. we're prepared to fight that, too. we'll be on the offensive with that. i feel like healthcare is on the defensive side. not anymore. we prepared now and we're here for good. tea party movement is real and we're here for the long

haul. this is the beginning for us. these people will be voted on in 2010. they know they will be voted out. with amnesty, they are preparing to come back in 2012 but we'll stop it, too. we're ready. >> neil: ana, are tea partiers largely aligned then with the 178 republicans, to a man and woman, all against an unusual, abroad, across-the-board reprrepudiatio with republicans? are you more in kline to support them and republican candidates in the fall? >> we're definitely going to support republican candidates. the answer is not to start a third party. i wish we had time to work something like that, but we don't. so we are more aligned with the republican as and the key here, neil, is find republican candidates that

support our views. no more rhinos. we're tired of. that we want conservetives back in the house. that's what we're looking for. we may not be able to put all of them in 2010. it's a long-term process. but we are slowly going to get there. the tea party movement is in the process of interviewing the candidates. we're having a say. look what happened with scott brown. we supported him. it's because of us he got elected in massachusetts. we're going to do the same in the fall. >> neil: ana, thank you very much. best of luck today with the crowds and everything else. >> thank you. >> neil: it could be an interesting day to put it mildly. we are getting more details exactly on what was behind congressman stupak decision to shelve the press conference or push it back at least. top democrat is saying party leaders are unlikely to cut any special deals for abortion opponents to pass the president's healthcare overhaul. that might be congressman stupak's way of saying well, there is no reason for me to talk. vote against it.

obviously, the democratic leadership seems to be saying bye-bye. congressman baucus joining us after this. every day, 7,000 boomers reach retirement age. and they are rewriting what it means to retire. at merrill lynch, we have over 15,000 financial advisors to help you create a strategy to consolidate, manage, and invest your assets, which could make your second act better than your first.

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>> neil: welcome back to washington, everybody. i'm neil cavuto. 216, 216, 216. how many times have i said that number? it might be drilled into your head. it's drilled into mine. that's how many votes they'll need in the house of representatives to get this healthcare thing passed.

you need 216 votes. depending on whose count you buy and where we go with all of this, no more is any pressient than the other. they're close, and some have it over. but the bottom line is for every new yes vote you get, you also get reports of people who were yes, who were no. this guy was a no from the beginning. he's alabama republican congre congressman baucus. you were telling me, you were opposed to this on the big grounds, government going too far. explain. >> absolutely. medicare has been funded with a payroll tax, but now they move to taxing dividends, annuities, pensions. any uneaunearned income. if you have rental income, if you rent out a room, that will go in medicare now. tremendous increase in taxes and in healthcare premiums. they admit that healthcare premiums will go up. >> neil: they also say right

away the goodies ticket, if you will, the preexisting coverage kicks in. coverage for children as old as 26 kicks in. people at home might immediately see the good stuff before the bad stuff, right? >> the class act a federal program for long-term care will collect premiums long before they start to give out benefits and the program kicks in. that moves the number several hundred million dollars. no, all the payments, you pay into it and the benefits are both illusion s illusioillusion long-term. >> neil: educate me on what the c.b.o. is saying. the first cover sheet read from the c.b.o. is that this did, indeed, get to be deficit neutral. $118 billion saved over ten years. but now there is a potential

follow-up c.b.o. report, which i guess has to account for exemptions and allow it to be made for doctors ticked at the medicare cuts were extreme. do you know what that will be in the second c.b.o. read and if so, how it could effect it? >> it's a medicare fix. they're not counting that. >> neil: so when the c.b.o. comes out with a score, something big like that won't be in the score. >> another thing, you heard about the cadillac plans, taxing the unions. they caught deal not to tax benefit the first ten years. the second ten years all the savings is because they're going to tax all of your better healthcare premiums. >> neil: bottom line, you are telling me when the c.b.o. comes up with the final score, whenever, if ever, it won't have the medicare thing so it will probably echo what the original score was? >> absolutely. it's illusiary.

that is the best thing i can say. another tremendous mistake he targeted insurance companies and told them that's where the money is going. their total profit amount to just a little over a day of healthcare spending. if you wipe out every bit of their profit and put them out of business, you would save one day. >> neil: that's how big the numbers are. congressman, thank you. good to see you. thank you for taking the time. you are hearing a lot as the congressman pointed out the cost of all of this. one number that stuck out in my mind i followed on, 44.3%. 44.3%. what if i told you, what they're looking at in healthcare, that is going to be the new top rate? 44.3%. which is among the reason why the tea partiers are so angry. they're gathering. and most of them aren't even

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about healthcare, they do not care about your health. they do not care about you. they care about changing this country. they care about changing the ideology of how we live our lives. >> neil: what do you expect when you have the single biggest piece of domestic legislation since the new deal being hotly debated on

the capitol hill that you wouldn't hear from those vociferously to opposed, including tea parties you're looking at now and those very much for expected to rally two hours from now. both sides taking on the heat and providing more than enough in a day the temperatures is expected to go over 80 degrees in this unusually warm nation's capitol, where you have a marathon going on as well. and the marathoners are running away from all of this. literally. but now, back to what is being debated. some things that aren't that well known about the measure being debated. the issue of taxes going up. you know the top rate is going to be moving back up to 39.6%. for the 250,000 overcrowd, there is a medicare tax on investment income, which would include dividends and that sort of thing.

a full 1% increase in the so-called medicare payroll tax, that would bring ostensibly for the group the top rate not to 39.6, but more like 44.3%. what they make of this, stuart varney, da dagen mcdowell. startling numbers. >> startling for a number of reason. one, this tax, they can call it a medicare tax. guess what, it's not going to make medicare solvent. it's going to pay for these new entitlements. number one. but number two, this wasn't even in the original senate bill. not in the original house bill. this is a new add-on from the white house. we have to worry about not just the top income tax rate, but what about capital gains that create money to invest in private businesses in this country. that is going to go up by 60%, the top cap gains tax

rate will be 24%. >> neil: stuart varney, the markets knew the broader aspect of this deal, maybe not the little detail on medicare coming to light. they saw this coming, and friday notwithstanding they've been on a tear. the market thousands of points up from the lows. you know, the dow is at 17, 18-month high. what is going on? >> wall street has done well, main street is in the doldrums. profitability for corporations in america is very strong. to take up data points you look down the road and you add up this down the pike at people, and money is being taken away from people. they would have used the money for investing and creating jobs. if you take some of the big states, you look at every extra dollar earned by

relatively wealthy and successful people, almost 60 cents of that extra dollar is going to be taken away from them and forcibly handed over to the government. this is money which could, may have gone in the stock market and other investments, but which will not now. neil, you're almost back up to the tax rates of the carter era, and that did not end well. >> neil: adam, what do you think of that? we're revisiting the carter era? >> i love stuart, but it's a fair amount of nonsense. >> neil: what? >> we're talking about changing the ideology of the country, that's just not true. >> neil: did you just say mr. stuart varney spewed nonsense? >> wait a second. adam, let me point something out to you. you live in california. you have a very high rate of state income tax. federal income taxes are going up. capital gains taxes are going up. >> neil: so adam, answer that. >> you are going to have a 60% marginal tax rate in california.

>> neil: got to answer it. got to answer it. go ahead. >> we're not going to have a marginal tax rate of 60%. what you said is there will be a 60% increase on incremental dollars coming in. that may be true. my point is what is going on here is that taxes are going up. i'm not disputing that. the rates are going to be very high in california. you're right. >> neil: okay. >> but the legislators have to go fishing where the fish are, stuart, if they are going to raise the money to pay for this. it's far more critical -- >> this is a historic breach with this new tax when you're not taxing work, you're taxing investment. >> neil: we will be hearing you. we're also going to hear from mike huckabee, don imus. man, it gets better.

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as washington gets hotter, you don't know what happens. it gets ugly. you wanted to see the sausage-making, you have the sausage-making. all right. also at this hour, this moment, in fact, we were supposed to hear bart stupak the michigan democrat announce to the press how close he was coming to making a deal maybe with nancy pelosi on this issue of abortion. a big abortion opponent. he has six or eight fellow anti-abortionists who have been saying look, the language in this is such that we're not so sure federal money isn't going to find a way to fund abortion. so we better be clear. he has canceled or at least postponed as that planned briefing, which led a lot of folks to believe nancy pelosi wouldn't give in, and wouldn't make adjustments, wouldn't make allowances for him or consider an amendment, perhaps fearing whatever concessions she made to the congressman would royal the pro-choice crowd.

if that is true, our own rich edson pointed out earliearlier, roll of the dice and the democratic leadership saying we can afford to be without the stupak and go without the pro-life crowd, you could read into that whatever you will. i read into it they might be comfortable they have the numbers needed to pass this. the 216 needed to make this effectively the new law of the united states. there is a process to go from there. believe me, you have to pass that hurdle. this deal is done my friends. all right, so to governor mike huckabee now in new york. you know, i don't know what you started, governor, when you started saying call the capitol, let your views be known. we are getting reports of 100,000 folks an hour doing just that. by the way, throughout the night, a lot of them are encountering busy signals. we don't know if the phones were left off the hook, but bottom line record number of calls to congress we've never seen before. what do you think going on? >> i would like to think it's

having some impact, but the guys are all sequestered and they're likely to go native, to go with the leaders and the captors. it's the stockholm syndrome of washington. it happens. it happens in state's capitol and the face's capitol. a little over a week ago i created a website called callcongressnow.com. i was part of a group and i called 60 conservative leader around the country in a conference call and said let's try to talk to the constituents of the movement, if you will, across america, and just at least ask them to make their views known. callcongressnow.com is a listing of every member of house and senate with the telephone in d.c. the district office, and the website. you can call their district, call the washington office. e-mail them by way of their website. obviously, a lot of people have done just that. that is a good thing. it's democracy in action. when people say it won't do any good. yes, it will. when people know their voices are being ignored, i think

then they make the next step. that's they get involved in the campaigns of those to unseat these folks who have turned a deaf ear to their bosses. i know what happens here at fox news if i were to never listen to the people who run this place. if i were to do everything against what they told me to do, i wouldn't be on the air tomorrow. and i'd lose my job. you would, too. you wouldn't, neil, but i would. >> neil: i just found out the other anchors at fox are getting paid. that's a separate issue. >> people get paid for this? my gosh. i'll have a talk with these folks. >> neil: here is the caveat of what you're saying, with the highest of respect. what if there is a strategy to what appears to be the madness. denying the will and the people of your district. maybe not across the board but enough. if you look at when the healthcare rolls out, the goodies start out immediately. i don't mean to say coverage for preexisting conditions is a goodie, but one of the favorable things that people

on both sides of the aisle say is wrong with our to system is addressed immediately. in other words, if this is signed into law, you're instantly covered for preexisting conditions. you're instantly covered for preventive care where you don't have to look at a deductible. you're instantly covered for your kids up to 26 years old so they can be on your policy. which my daughter is salivating over. in other words, what happens, governor, the bennies are up front. i think a lot of republicans are seizing on this and saying well, they will pay at the polls for this. you could be right but i'm beginning to wonder if a lot of these folks looking at this are starting to say wait a minute, not knowing some of the heavy duty stuff you're talking about is coming down the road, like premium hike and the like, but up front it's the good stuff. >> that would be true except for a couple of things. people who will pay new taxes are the small business owner and people running companies who are already giving insurance to their people. it will not have a big effect on their constituencies,

except many a negative way. so the question is, are there enough voters that are going to be happy to offset the voters who are going to be extremely unhappy. not so much for the specific provisions in the bill, but for the fact that congress completely thumbed their nose contemptously at their constituents. that is what really erupting. that's why you see the tea party movement gaining steam. you have the tea parties versus the coffee clatchers and there will be a mad dash. it venture to say there are more tea partiers than the coffee clatchers saying this is lovely, pass me another crumpet. >> neil: good to see you. thank you. look forward to your show tonight. who do you have on? >> two governors, mike rounds from south dakota and edwin dell from pennsylvania. talking about it from a state's perspective. no one is discussing how it affects the state. we have a coffee clatch, starbucks focus group, town hall as part of the show.

>> neil: all right, thank you, governor. good to see you. >> thank you. >> neil: we're hearing from congressman stupak's office all the intrigue, why was it postponed is a scheduling issue, we're told. scheduling issue. all right. it was well telegraphed as 11:00 a.m., on everyone's schedule. but now scheduling issue. we'll keep track of it. meantime, keeping track of the tea party rally. they started early and got the crowds there now. molly henneberg is in the thick of it all. what can you tell us? >> reporter: hi, neil. the rally was supposed to start at noon. people are still arriving now. they got here early, and they have speakers warming up the crowd now, but mainly it will get underway at noon. this is a coalition around 60 or more tea party groups and their affiliates gathering here outside the capitol. you heard them chanting "kill this bill. "that's their message and they are launching the final push to defeat the healthcare reform bill and they want to put pressure on undecided to get them to vote against it.

speakers today include minnesota republican congressman michelle balkmann and joe wilson. you may remember wilson is the one who faye mousely yelled "you lied -- famously yelled "you lied" when the president was talking about healthcare reform. expected to address the crowd, actor jon voigt, the father of angelina jolie and dr. wills, against the healthcare reform bill. this is supposed to go until 1:30 in the afternoon or so. then this crowd, they are asking the crowd to go to office of members of congress. they passed out a code red list of members' offices, all democrats except for one -- it's several pages long -- with their office number and how they voted in the past and if they stated which way they'll vote this time. they will go to offices all afternoon, reconvene around 5:00 eastern time. maybe walk around the capital. they're not sure. maybe a candlelight vigil

tonight. these aren't deficit plans yet. neil? >> neil: great job, molly. thank you as always. speaking of the tea partiers, normally would not connect the well acclaimed actor jon voight with tea partiers but he is a big supporter of their effort. a leader in a lot of their evidents and he is heading to -- leader of their efforts and is heading to the event now. he joins me on the phone. good to have you. >> good to hear your voice. >> neil: go ahead. >> i'm watching out my window about to make the trek to the capitol steps and i'm looking at the washington monument and jefferson memorial behind it. i'm feeling that these fellows are looking at us today from above and hoping we can pull this through so that the united states continues intact. this bill will be disastrous

if it goes through. >> neil: the president pointed to the same gust of historical figures looking down that we should be doing the, the country doing big things. what do you say? s>> look, one thing we see from the last year of the president and administration and leadership in the house and senate is they don't have much concern for the will of the people. they are pushing it past the will of the people and without the will of the people. how they claim it's the legacy of our founders is beyond me. >> neil: do you get any grief, jon -- i know i asked you this before. >> you know something -- >> neil: for supporting a group that hollywood doesn't flip over? >> neil, you know, neil, it's an interesting thing because

i'm trying to prepare my thoughts to take on this responsibility of speaking to the great people that are showing up, the patriotic people who are participating in the government in the proper way of our citizenship. so many things are on my mind. we live in an extraordinary country where everybody has the right and point of view. thank god we can speak it out. i am not concerned with other people's opinion of me but i am concerned about contributing my own opinion based on everything i can gather in terms of everything i can gather with the information going on. i'm just thinking about my citizenship today and how i will present myself to the wonderful people. >> neil: you always stay in my mind because a script you

were giving i couldn't face the defense secretary. you didn't like how the defense secretary was portrayed as an evil guy. you changed it and you made the guy much more human and much more concerned and compassionate than hollywood traditionally would assign a guy like that. hats off to you for that. >> we all have to do what we can and be informed citizenry to make the democracy work, the republic work. we all do our part. i'm not the only fellow out there. as you can see in front of the steps and the people gathering. there are a whole lot of folks out there. if you put the microphone in front of any one of them, you'd be reminded of who america is. >> neil those are the people i'm serving today for sure. >> neil: all right. well, they're looking forward to hearing from you. pro or con tea partiers, i understand you're going to be attracting quite a crowd.

jon voight, good to talk to you. >> god bless. bye-bye. >> neil: you, too. well, he is going to address a pretty large crowd here because buses are coming in fast and furious to the event. we're told many of them stuck in traffic early on. a prominent person is missing from the gathering. we don't know if it was by design or purely chance. don imus isn't here. much of the western world is asking the question i am. why not?  [ female announcer ] sometimes you need tomorrow

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>> neil: welcome back, everybody. i'm neil cavuto. joining you from the nation's capitol. out of sight range for fine cameraman here today, but there are a lot of buses gathering off the pennsylvania avenue coming here. down to the capitol for this tea party protest. they're not all tea partiers and they're not all protesters against this. many of this have come to protest the protesters. by and large, most of the buss are the tea party crowd that got you might have heard stuck in traffic. thousands of tea partiers gathering on the step of the capitol of the west lawn to voice their displeasure. it might be too little, too late. we're getting indication that the votes one-by-one is eking in there, not to say it's a slam dunk, but closer to a slam dunk. you need 216 votes to get this healthcare thing approved and depending on whose quick math you get -- i don't want to give it more credence than quick math in

pencil on a napkin, it looks like the democrats are getting there. i say the democrats because not a single republican of the 178 in the house are expected to vote for it. this next fellow is. pennsylvania governor who was before t for this before anyone, i think. good to see you. >> welcome to washington again. >> it's beautiful. the under and over is this goes through? >> this is going to pass tomorrow. it's kind of a celebration of our democracy. people watch debate back and forth and then there is a vote. we had a debate and then a vote. >> neil: if you have a real vote? >> if you you go to the fox news site, i'm a fan, that shows this is not an abnormal procedure. >> neil: not at all. >> used many times. >> neil: whether it's used in the past or not, something like this, at a time like

this, should we be doing this? >> the reality is majority in the house will get a chance to set the rule. that's going to be done today. >> neil: there is a possibility they could scrap this thing. >> no, i think we will go with this. >> neil: i think if you get, if you guys are comfortable and more than 216 you scrab it. >> no. here is the deal. you want the vote to be a true vote on the real issue. real issue is we're passing the senate bill with these corrections. not that we're passing the senate bill. or that we're passing these corrections. the vote is on both things, so that members could be held accountable for both things. not a false account of the bill. >> neil: this is a bad -- we could argue this for hours. let me go back to the congressman stupak thing where he had a planned presser at 11:00 a.m. and as you know it's been put off. some are reading into that, that allowances made to the anti-abortion crowd led by stupak have gone unheeded by nancy pelosi and she is

saying effectively i can't do anything for you. >> there are a lot of pro-life democrats in the house and the senate. the vast overwhelming majority will vote in favor of the bill. >> neil: do you think he does? >> the point i'm trying to make is i think that there is going to be attempts to work through it. the pro-life democrats, majority of them are voting for the bill. >> neil: do you think the fact she might not, i stress might not wanted to make special allowances or exemptions or offered amendments to this effect on his behalf is her way of saying i would just be ticking off the pro-choice crowd whatever i gain with your vote and some of your friends votes i lose many more on the other side? >> i think we have an extraordinary speaker. who has done a job to put the package together. we want 32 million americans to have healthcare and kids have access -- >> neil: i know.

do you think she weighed it carefully and say we don't need you? >> no. what is going on the overwhelming majority of pro-life democrats are already on board, that they are convinced the nelson language, who has been a pro-life democrat for a long time, actually accomplishes what needs to be done. the catholic nuns say it protects against taxpayers' money going for abortion, the catholic hospitals have endorsed the bill. >> neil: why do we have all these people protesting outside? what are they protesting? >> we have 300 million people in the country. i think the tea party movement has done a great service in the sense it's brought attention to the debate. there were always people on opposite side of the issues. ill takes political courage and political activism to bring out all the issues. i welcome the tea partiers to washington. there were people who were to supposed to the vote on the textbooks in texas.

the majority is going to have its way, but it doesn't mean minority shouldn't have its way. >> neil: good to have you. with me now is fellow who felt it more important on st. patrick's day to do a show from a bar than be here for american history being made. don imus, quite far away from washington right now. don, do you feel guilty? >> good morning, mr. makaveckas. h -- good morning, mr. neil cavuto. how are you? >> neil: how are you? >> i'm at the cattle ranch for kids for cancer where we had 1,000 kids who have cancer and getting ready for. that i realize i should be in washington standing around with a bunch of people who look like they've just gotten out of mental institutions, holding up glenn beck placards and jumping up and

down and screaming about the vote. >> neil: it took 20 seconds for you to do this. >> here is what happened helmet head. you started right in on me and introduced me and put me in an adversarial position frame of mind. >> neil: i apology. let's start over. >> your apology is not accepted. >> neil: in all serious, talk about the kids with cancer and you devoted time and effort to help them. the argument you hear from folks who are pushing for at least overall is those kids will be helped. they will be more helped under a system like they're envisioning than the system we have now. what do you think of that? >> do you know what is in this bill? >> neil: so you have concerns. >> i don't know. do you know what is in the bill? >> neil: yes, i do. >> the president says he doesn't and the speaker of the house says she doesn't. they have to pass it to find out what is in it. >> neil: that is a good

point. good point. >> how do you know what's in it and they don't? >> neil: the broader parameters, part things in here that would take effect soon on passage, would be coverage for kids with preexisting conditions like cancer. that is a big draw, especially to parents. that is the side of the bill that isn't getting a lot of play in the press. that is the side the democrats will press in the months ahead. what they're saying is republicans who are seizing on this to score political points in the fall, think americans will be dead set against it, when they wake up and see the near-term thing that an it provides them, quite the opposite. what do you think of that? >> that is a point. but i -- one of the aspects you mentioned just a minute ago in terms of people it will help, most of the kids

who come to the ranch are from one, minority families; and two, from poor income, low-income families. many who don't have any health insurance. you know, on that basis, i guess that it will help, but who knows what is in it? then i begin to think as i watch all of the coverage that this -- i mean, i'm not one of those people who has been drinking the gatorade and doesn't like the president. he's fine. i'm confident that they're well-intentioned. but i do think it's a lot about his presidency, now, too. so i mean we did find out that he is slightly disingenuous if you just look at the things he said in the campaign. then the way he's governed. it doesn't mean he's the worst guy on the planet, it just means he's a politician. >> neil: say le he gets this, he's staying here in the city this weekend and going up to capitol hill in a few hours,

don, to meet with democrats, all of them, even the no-vote democrats. one last chance to persuade them. he gets this. maybe as the good congressman is pointing out by close margin. but he gets it. how do you think it abilitiy af him and how do you think it influences his history? >> i think it saves his presidency. that's what i think. by the way, there is a foot of snow out here. it's 18 degrees and the wind is blowing 40 miles per hour. i'm just watching people on fox news walking around in t-shirts there. [ laughter [ laughter ] i think it saves his presidency. >> neil: this is as much about your attention span as it is your healthcare. something that might be addressed in this bill. what i'd ask you -- >> i don't think i need you to attack me, do you? >> neil: well, you attacked me. >> no, i didn't. no, no, no i didn't. you started it. >> neil: no, you started it. to infinity. >> where are you, by the way? >> neil: in washington! >> where are you standing? it looks like you're outside.

>> neil: yes, i'm outside. >> oh, you are? >> neil: yes. >> are you on a roof or something? >> neil: yes, i am. >> jump off of it. [ laughter ] don imus, always a pleasure. i hope to grab you again as we're still here, but very good stuff my friend. don imus, and again, we will be using his very pressient views on all of this. he saw a lot of this coming by the way, if you saw his interview and discussions on how it falls out. it might go to complete passage. we shall see. we have so much more to go. the american medical association president on this. we told you what appeared to be a rift in the organization, doctors who didn't like it, the higher-ups did. then the battle of the white coats. all the doctors that said they were for it and against it. all the white coat stuff. man, oh, man. might be fine this time of year. but a lot of white coats. stick around. in the nation's capitol where history could be being made and votes could be gathered.

216 is what they need. growing indications despite all the protests that they are there. and this is done. @c

>> neil: all morning we've been telling you about the soap opera, intrigue developing around bart stupak, planning an 11:00 a.m. eastern time press conference, supposedly to announce whether he was making progress or a deal with house leadership on

inserting more proright language or abortion restrictions in the legislation they're considering. then that was hastily canceled or at least put off. now we're getting word from a stupak spokeswoman that that is not necessarily the case, that discussions are done. she is on the record saying i could say discussions are continuing. what that means i leave it out there for you to consider. so, again, we might not have heard the last from the michigan congressman who has made the abortion issue, the signature issue for so many. better than 40 congressmen right now on one side or the other that have made this an event. don't go too far. don't go far enough. it could effect our vote. we're keeping an eye on it. meantime, the american medical association says the president, not only on that issue but more to the point on the other issue you've been hearing about, that is funding that doctors get through medicare. a lot of doctors were

complaining about that, saying look, the restrictions were such that they were looking at a cut in pay, substantial cut in pay. there is an effort led by the house leadership to compensate them or offset the cuts. i want to get mr. rojak's impression of that and where it stands. very good to have you, sir. what can you tell us? >> as we know, neil, the medicare program is broken because of the way that is a formula that congress set up in '97, basically penalizing doctors for caring for patients. the more good care doctor provide, the deeper the cuts will happen. so congress has put temporary patches on the problem, grown it to more than $200 billion to fix it. frankly, it's time to permanently repeal the program and for that reason the american medical association has been consistent in our working with both sides of the aisle, as well as the white house to say we need to stop this nonsense of temporary

patches. and have a permanent repeal so we can have stability and security in the medicare program. >> neil: what if you don't get that, doctor? >> well, the reality is that on march 1, the cuts went through for one day of 21%. you saw physicians having to respond the only way they could to shield their practices. they started to not accept any new medicare patients. elective cases started to be canceled, and frankly, it wound up having physicians decide ding do they lay off their personnel? we look at this as a jobs bill, the practicing physician in america is trying to keep their office open and you can't do it if you look at 20% cut in reimbursement. >> neil: i understand your plight, the organization concerns, doctor. what i'm asking you now if they don't do that, if they don't address this, if the package has to simply get a yea or nay vote based on what it is now, without the

medicare issues addressed now. would you be for it or against it? >> we believe that the status quo is unacceptable. frankly, neil, what is in this bill, the reconciliation package, it's not a perfect product. it doesn't have a lot of the things that we would like, but it has on balance the ability to make health insurance market changes. it's not going to happen in the private market. we need to have everybody in the pools, so that we -- >> neil: bottom line -- i don't mean to jump on you, there but it seems you're saying you wouldn't be a happy camper but something is better than nothing, with the hope being you would support this again with the understanding that they would address the medicare issue in short order. >> absolutely. they pulled the medicare issue out of their package, so when we took a look at what is left, it isn't perfect, but on the other hand, we know that the status quo really isn't acceptable for millions of americans.

and physicians who are caring for them. so we think that what is in the bill on whole will make a better system for america, but it's not the final step, it's just one of many more steps that have to be done to get value back into what we're paying for. >> neil: doctor, this is an area of which i'm quite familiar. i know it might surprise you. quite a few doctors in all camps, in all strains from general practitioners up to oncologists and neurologists, and the ones i talk to, at least, sir, don't flip over this and they wonder whether there is a disconnect with the organization to which they belong. the a.m.a. and they're ticked. some of them even quitting the a.m.a. over this. is there a serious riff? >> no. what this represents is that the professionalism that all physicians have, we want to care for our patients in the best way possible. >> neil: they say this doesn't do it, sir. that's what they're saying. >> well, for 32 million

americans that don't have health insurance, that those physicians are caring for right now, this bill will help those physicians care for them. in addition, this bill gets rid of the $68,000 that a physician spends each year on administrative processes. this bill eliminates that. what the bill does actually tries to strengthen the private insurance market. now that has upset some of our members that believe they want to have a single governmental payer system. that's the solution to healthcare. our american medical association believes we need a pluralistic sector. we think this helps the primary care physicians especially dealing with medicaid, which doesn't may adequately for care already by increasing them up to medicare rates. >> neil: very good having you. thank you. >> thank you, neil. >> neil: all right. if there is such a thing as

bo boogyman or the scapegoat in this battle it's the health insurance companies to the point. they have had a target on their backs from the very beginning almost. constantly mentioned in the president's speeches as the one big block to fare. how many times have you heard people denied coverage, in one of the president's stories in a hospital bed and surgeon's room. needless to say not a good time to be in the health insurance industry or dealing with this or to hear some tell it with with the legislation being considered and potentially becoming law to be a health insurance company at all. because the costs are going to be severe. with me now is jake go geller, the healthnet ceo. good to have you. >> good to be here. >> neil: this looks like, jay, it will happen. i could be wrong. i've been wrong many times,

but i never admit. so it happens. then what for you? >> we need to make sure if it passes we do the things necessary to make it work. this is in many ways in our view a prelim. we have been in a debate between do nothing and do something very imperfect. whatever happens here, we have to, the day after it passes, go back to dealing with affordability in healthcare, making sure that the 2100 pan pages work and are not just a bunch of language. and fixing the issues that the doctor talked about that everyone has talked about on the show. at the end -- >> neil: but you won't be able to. what is done is done. you're right, you're right, jay. i'm just saying, i want to make clear. >> let me tell you why i think it will? . >> neil: they might do this stuff down the road, unlikely, but not going to happen now. >> but the people who have spent the last many months

just talking about us, now have to deal with the other 96% of the healthcare system. because the results they've promised, won't actually be accomplished unless we lower cost and make sure that whatever is passed works. continued debate between nothing and something very imperfect isn't going to be adequate for the american people. >> neil: that is a very good point. we have a bit of an audio delay, so i apologize for jumping on you here. when you hear the president rip you, not you personally but your industry. then yesterday, joe biden jumped ugly on you. listen to this. >> my response is hey, man, the proof in the pudding is in the eating. i am telling you, you know preexistings are going to be covered, you know we are going to control the insurance companies. >> neil: "we're going to control the insurance companies." i think you just met your new bo boss. >> the more important thing that the vice president said

is the proof in the mudding is -- proof in the pudding is in the eating. to deal with the healthcare you have to deal with the entire that we spend. dealing with 4% won't get results he promised. so now i think we will move to main event, where we're going to have to lower costs, and we're actually going to have to make the individual market work. >> neil: you're saying you have serious doubts that this is going to do that. you have serious doubts this is going to do that? >> i think this as it's constructed now is very imperfect. i think this is just the start. the doctor before me said this is imperfect. we'll be working on this, and it will be changing it, at the end of the day we have a marker, all of us. it's about making health insurance affordable and available. this bill on its own won't get us there. there is a tremendous amount of work to be done and there will be massive changes before we have success.

>> neil: jay gellert, thank you very much. >> bye-bye. >> neil: the scene right now in the nation capitol where protesters are gathering and buses, tons of them coming in fast and furious, most carrying tea partiers descending on the city to make their views known. michelle bachman one of the prominent speakers. jon voight later on. we hear from that young lady in a few minutes. you're watching cost of freedom coverage of the most costly piece of legislation we've seen in a generation. does it pass? it's close, very close.

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>> neil: welcome back to washington. congressman just finished talking and she will no doubt make her way here very quickly to speak with us. tea partiers by the thousands gathering on washington to protest what they say is the biggest case of government boondoggling in american history. the rally will end approximately around 1:30. so another two hours or so. then they're going to go to the capitol complex, to lobby lawmakers directly. i don't know what capitol complex. is that they're going inside? they're outside now. then they resume the rally on the west front of the capitol at 1700. that is 5:00 p.m.

i'm very big on this stuff. we're also keeping track of the votes and who is going to be a yes and no and all of this. even though this guy was a yes last time in november, many thought that his vote was in some doubt that he would vote no this go-around. indiana democratic representative barron hill who we are just being told now will vote in favor of the healthcare reform legislation. so he is a yes. our chad, our capitol hill producer, good writer in his own write joins us. how do you handicap it now? >> it's interesting. pick-up of barron hill is quite significant. i have just confirmed that in the time reading the intro, neil. he was somebody who voted yes for the bill last fall and represents the most swing of swing districts. he'll be facing mike soddar, republican later this year, they've faced off four times in the past four cycles here. hill was unseeded and hill

has come back a couple of times. soddrill only beat him by 2,000 votes. this seat with evan bayh retiring, the democratic senator from indiana, a lot of people thought hill might waiver. in the statement he just put out in the past bit, he says he likes the cost of this, he likes the fact that it covers more people and he will be a yes. that is consistent with the vote that he cast last fall. and that's somebody that nancy pelosi really needed to have. >> neil: well, it got you here, chad. can you update me on the stupak drama and what it means? they say it was a scheduling issue. the planned press conference is still going to happen, it's just delayed. others are reading into it that maybe the pro-life crowd has been shut out of this thing. what is going on? >> it's a little muddy. what happened last night was that we were hearing that stupak was going to work out what we call up here on capitol hill "a sidecar bill." it would be a bill that literally would have had an

up-or-down vote on the stupak amendment, not part of the senate passed bill, which the house will wrestle with tomorrow. this infuriated a block of 40 pro-choice female democratic members. there was a long meeting in the speaker's office. diana degette, democrat from colorado, chief whip for the speaker came out and said this would not stand. they felt they allowed the ox to be gored with the stupak amendment last fall and they were upset last time. they thought it was a bridge too far. so we're unclear how they are going to resolve the abortion issue here. neil, one thing we might note is they might have the votes and might not have to worry about the pro-life democrats, the stupaks of the world, especially if they are getting people like barron hill and brad elsworth and folks like that to say they are going to vote for the bill. >> neil: part of the concern about overdealing, if you will, chad, with the pro-life crowd is you lose a lot of the pro-choice crowd.

so, you seem to be i intimating they could with the newest congressman in the column they could afford to roll the dice maybe. >> it might be. if you think you're within two or three votes, you bring it to the floor. smart majority has a couple of people in their hip pocket. it was interesting last night a number of members saying they were undecided. that's in case of emergency break glass scenario. they don't weigh in and tell the leadership and the leadership tells them we know you want to vote no on this, but if we get to the floor and we need your vote can you be with us or be with the president? they say yes. then they hold off. a lot of people nancy pelosi might have in her hip pocket for that scenario. >> neil: the president is still planning the meeting with capitol hill? >> he will meet with the democratic caucus in the congressional visitors center. you asked what is the capitol complex, the capital visitors

center and the house office building and so on and so forth. i expect it to be a pep rally. he met with the house democrats last fall on saturday. the very day they voted on the original healthcare bill. this is a day ahead of time, but never underestimate the power of a president. and i think -- >> neil: indeed. >> that might be something that folks are watching for here and wanting to hear from among the house democratic caucus. >> neil: chad, you are an encyclopedia, young man. thank you for bringing us up to date. throughout the day, you will hear from chad and throughout the weekend as he keeps us abreast of the changing developments. by the way, the fast-changing developments that worry the thousands of tea partiers who have gathered on the mall in washington, coming in with bus after bus after bus to the west lawn of the capitol. we're told they are going to be doing other stuff in the capitol complex. up to debate whether it means they will storm the building, but they're upset. they're vocal and loud. they're not leaving. they're not leaving. stick around.

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>> neil: all right. back to the tea partiers, and the debate on capitol hill. molly henneberg in the middle of that party on capitol hill. hey, molly. >> reporter: hi, neil. just a quick update for you now. the official start time is still in about ten minutes, noon eastern time, for this tea party rally outside the capitol. they're getting a couple of speakers to go a little early. some member of congress, including minnesota congresswoman michelle bachmann has spoken. she had to cast a vote so they got her up there early. a moment here, a speaker said everybody take out your cell phones. a lot of the crowd of sth thousands did. he said here is the number for the capitol switchboard. call them and tell them not to cast his bill.

thousands of tea partiers outside the capitol jamming the switchboard a couple minutes ago. >> neil: thank you very much, molly. the jamming switchboard notwithstanding, growing indications that this thing will be approved and if caterpillar ceo is right, it will also be a jobs killer. is he right? reaction from tracy byrnes. joining us is max ferris, toby smith in washington. what do you think of that? >> it is. i can prove it. look at massachusetts. they traded obama-care three years ago. the latest study out of massachusetts is if that state has destroyed more jobs than any other state in the united states. if that's not proof, neil, i don't know what is. >> neil: scott brown voted for that, you know. >> i understand he did. i bet you he regrets it, too. >> neil: tracy, what do you make of that, now ceos in this case the ceo of caterpillar saying this will be a costly albatross? >> caterpillar is talking

about not getting medicare reimbursements and that is a total effect on his overall budget. trickle it down to small businesses. they're concern and confused. that just leaves them to do nothing. they will not hire. they may not fire but they will not move on and grow their businesses. there are so many uncertainties out there, neil. that i are worried about taxes going -- they are worried about taxes going up, inefficiently and it hurts their bottom line. that means they are not going to hire. >> neil: jonas? >> the whole system where employers are responsible for your healthcare is bad for jobs, period. there was only one piece in the legislation moving away from that, the tax on the cad lax healthcare plan. they scrapped it and reduced it, pushed it off because of union pressure, whatever. they are moving more in the direction of employers paying for healthcare. that is never good for jobs. in general, this plan is deficit negative. it will save money, which is bad for jobs. good for the long-term deficit of the country but there are net taxes paid by

somebody, less spent by the government. i will say the caterpillar thing is a bad example. they're complaining largely about their last hand-out from government in the drug plan a few years ago. >> neil: by the way, they're not the only ones who are expressing conceconcern. i liken it, though, many of people who defend the bill what they said about the clinton economic stimulus in '93 that was approved by one vote, al gore the tie-breaker. we had good times after that. so much for nothing? >> that forgets that we had the biggest wealth creator, biggest bubble in the world in the internet. you can also say we paid down the deficit. >> neil: we'll give you that one. >> i love that argument, because we had so many taxes that were collected by capital gains, stock options, i.p.o.s. that was $8 trillion that happened. if we are going to have it again, if we are, this is a job creator. otherwise, jobs killer. >> neil: you have your doubts. >> yes. >> neil: tracy, assuming this does pass, elite but

assuming, what then? >> people will start to cover. people hoard their money, and small businesses in particular. we are hearing from them. some of them are arguing -- they may have to close shop. they can't afford to do this and pay for all the costs. they're going up. it will hurt job creation. >> neil: jonas, i know you are in new york, but you are missing the locusts here. [ laughter ] went completely past you. >> it will be good for jobs where you are. >> you're right. >> neil: guys, thank you very much. we have continue our coverage and reason why we're staying here for days. stick around. mary! hey! wow, you look great! thanks! it's this new wish yourself thin program. i just wish it and it happens. it's probably those fiber one bars you're eating. i know they help me stick to my diet. the bars are 90 calories and the fiber helps you feel full. 90 calories and high fiber. so that's why this diet thing is working. but it's weird because my wish for lorenzo came true.

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>> here we are at the top of the hour and you think, neil, your job must be done and i haven't got started. it's only now heating up. not only throughout the day is fox news going to be on top of this and fox business network, by the way, if you don't get you should demand. i digress. we are going to be back here tomorrow at 4 p.m. around the time we're expecting the big vote on this, we will have jim demint joining us, rhode island governor. boccieri and douglas wilder and many say set the stage for barack obama to be president and monday we're back here again, the fallout after the big vote with jeb bush shall the former governor of florida, the brother of the president, and many, many argue a future president in his own right. we don't know, but we're on top of it. we're on top