from new york. from new york. good night, america. captioned by closed captioning services, inc >> from new york. this is a special report on the upcoming election in great britain. with less than two weeks until our biggest ally votes for a prime minister, the leaders of the country's three main political parties faced off in their second debate on thursday. this time current prime minister gordon brown, conservative party leader david cameron and the leader of the liberal democrats nick clegg debated foreign policy. let's listen in.

>> good evening from bristol. welcome to the sky news leaders' debate round 2 of the furs ever televised prime minister debate in the uk. the three men who want to run the country after may sickth are here and raring to go. please welcome david cameron, nick clegg and gordon brown. the first half of the debate sint national affairs. each leader will make a short opening statement before taking questions from the audience. in the second half tonight, we will move on to general issues. now, lots have been drawn to decide who goes first. we start with the current prime minister, gordon brown. >> this may have a feel of a tv popularity contest, but in truth, this is an election about britain's future.

a fight for a real future and for your jobs. if it is all about style and pr, count me out. if it is about the big decisions, if it is about judgment, it is about delivering a better future for this country. i'm your man. ahead are huge challenges, delivering the economic recovery and jobs, bringing our brave troops safely home from afghanistan, keeping our streets free of terrorism. building alliances in europe against nuclear weapons, against climate change, against poverty, and to deal with our banks. now, not everyone has the answers, but i say get the big decisions wrong and britain's security and jobs are at risk. get the big decisions right and we can have a prosperous, fairer, greener and better britain. like me or not, i can deliver that plan. and the way to do it is with a majority labor government. >> thank you, mr. brown. next the leader of the conservative party, david cameron. >> thank you. it is clear from last week's debate that the country wants

change. but the question is, what sort of change and who is best placed to lead that change? if you vote conservative, you will get a new team running the country from may 7th, and you won't be stuck with what you've got now. but real change comes from your values, and there there are big differences between us. i believe that we need to do more to help families. they are the absolute bedrock of a strong society. i want government to be accountable. i want less waste, less beurocracy, stopping the jobs tax, but making sure we have good public services and you get good value for money for. as we are going to discuss tonight, i want us to keep our defenses strong, keep our borders secure and our country safe. but real change comes from not just politicians, but when we recognize we have responsibilities and we are all in this together and that's how we will build the strong society of a country. >> thank you, mr. cameron. and lastly, nick clegg.

>> i am so proud of the valuesthat made our country so great, democracy, human rights, the rule of law. but the sad truth is in recent years our government of the old parties have let those values down. we shouldn't have sent soldiers into battle without the right equipment. we shouldn't be facing allegations of complicity in torture. we shouldn't have invaded iraq. so i want us to lead in the world. i want us to lead. not complain from the side lients. i want us to lead and create a world free of nuclear weapons, and i want us to lead on the biggest challenge of all, climate change. my family knows what british values really mean. my mother was freed by british troops from a prisoner of war camp, and i think if we do things differently we can be proud once again of the role we can play as a force for good in the world. >> thank you, mr. clegg. those are tonight's opening

statements. now it is time for the questions from the audience. the audience here is made up mainly of local voters from the southwest, some with ally inteligences and others yet to be persuaded and some questions will be from sky news viewers who e-mailed us. each leader has an uninterrupted minute to answer each question and a second minute to deal with what rivals have said. and then frida bait time with no gashy tood time at the microphone. our first comes from christopher who is near bristol. >> hello. i can't see any advantage of us being in europe. i think there is far too much interference politically and legally, and i just wonder what you intend to do to stop it. >> how are we going to tackle europe, david cameron? >> clearly, i think we should be in europe because we are a trading nation. we are part of europe. we want to cooperate and work with our allies in europe to get things done. but i do agree with you. we have let too many powers go

from westminster to brussels. we passed too much power over and we need to take some back. i want us to be in europe, but not run by europe. you will hear big differences between he -- between me and the other two two parties. i don't want us to join the ear row. i want us to keep the pound as our currency. i want to make sure we get value for money. i want to cut some of the beurocracy, the rules and rec lagses that i think -- regulations that draws it so mad. that's what you get from a conservative government in europe. and for those who say this is isolation, i say nonence is. president sarkozy of france, he stands up for france. i would do exactly the same for britain in europe. >> thank you. nick, clegg. >> i worked for the man who sent margaret thatcher to battle for britain in brussels. what i learned when i was there was this: the european union is not perfect. of course not. this is a club that took 15

years to define chocolate. anybody that takes 15 years to define chocolate is efficiency. but what i learned was there are a whole lot of things whether we like it or not or whatever your views on europe and the european union which we simply can't do on our own, we can't deal with international crime which touches and affects every single community in this country on our own. we can't deal with climate change on our own. the weather doesn't stop at the cliffs of done. we can't regulate the wretched banks that got us into trouble in the first place that strawls over countries. i don't think the european union is perfect. i want it rerm toed and that's why i want to lead. but we are stronger together and weaker apart. >> you know, there are 3 million reasons we need to be a part of the european union, and they are called jobs. 3 million jobs depend on our membership of the european union. half of our trade is with the european union.

750,000 businesses, i'm sorry it is not your business raising the question about the building trade, but 750,000 businesses trade with europe. the idea we should be isolated and not in the mainstream of europe would be a terrible, terrible mistake. i worked with the european leaders through the global financial cry si.s i had to persuade them that we had to restructure our banks and they had to restructure their banks. i had to persuade them to work with america in the g20. but when europe and america works together, we are so much stronger. stronger to deal with climate change which is one of my priorities. stronger to deal with the economy. stronger to deal with international crime and stronger to deal with terrorism. let us never again be an empty chair in europe. my fear is the policy would put us in that position. >> i understand why people like christopher are frustrated about the european union and some of the things that happened. i think one of the reasons people are so angry is there are politicians at westminster that have given away powers to

brussels without asking us, the people, first. and i think people felt cheated when the european constitution came forward and we were told we were going to get a referendum. and gordon brown and labor stopped that. and nick clegg and the democrats didn't vote with us to get the referendum. we didn't have one. people feel cheated. what i would do if i was your prime minister is pass a law through parliament that says if ever there is a future occasion when laws are being proposed to pass power from westminster to brussels, there would be a guarantee of a referendum held in our country. send us to parliament to make decisions, make laws, discuss the issues, yet you don't send us to give powers that belong to you. there should be a referendum guarantee if this ever happens again. >> it was the conservative party that gave it cast iron guarantee to have a referendum that it promptly dropped. we need a referendum the next time we have a transfer of

powers. but it needs to be on the fundamental issue. do we stay in or do we go out? you have a right to make that choice in a referendum. i argue we stay in. not because it is perfect, but it is in our interest to do so. let me give you a concrete example. there was some time ago an operation by police authorities which broke open a peta file ring. they arrested a hundred sex offenders and released over 20 young women from unimaginable abuse and servitude. google it and look it up. conservative mep's independence party voted against the measuresthat made that possible. that is putting dogma above the safety of our children. we are coffer together and weaker apart. >> imagine a european council meeting with david cameron was in charge two months from now. he would have to go along and said he wanted to repatriate the social chapter. that's what gives us paid holidays. and we would have to break up

the european union meeting saying 26 is against this and i am the only one standing for this. what would happen? we are trying to get an economic recovery. that depends on germany, france and other countries growing and taking our exports. we need an agreement on climate change. goodn, we would be having a big argument as we did in the past with the conservative government about repatriating. it includes security and terrorism. these are the issues. let's look to the future. let's not go back to the days when we were fighting with the rest of europe in the past. >> what you are hearing from the other two is frankly don't trust the people. don't ask them when you pass powers from westminster to brussels. just give into everything that comes out of bros sells and don't stand up to your country. that's the same old politics to me. let me ask this important point, this idea that somehow an in-out referendum is what the public wants is not right.

what people want when a knew treaty comes along or constitution comes along is to have a choice. >> let's be clear. what would be calm, having a referendum on one treaty? even if we have the referendum it would have allowed the union to carry on exactly as before. let's have the fund mental debate. i worked in my previous life before politics on behalf of all of us. i was negotiating trade deals with the chinese government and the russian government and others. what i noticed was the chinese and russians only listened to what we were saying because i was representing the largest single market in the world, a -- of course 475 million consumers. it seems we punch above our weight when we stand together in a world where there are a lot of super powers bumping up against each other and to coin a phrase, size does matter.

>> nick wants a referendum on the european union. we need to solve the employment problem and the economic problem and get on with the job. i need to work with these other countries. david has walked away from the european people party which is aligned in europe and gone in with a group of right wing extremists. i want to work with the sensible people to get jobs for the british economy. if we don't trade we lose jobs and businesses and growth. let's make sure our priority is trading with europe, sorting out the problems of the european union, but let's make sure we have an economy stronger than ever. >> there is a real difference between us. the reason for this party is it is the huh poke craw see they are fed up with. they are in bristol saying i will stand up and then over they go to brussels and do the opposite. i want to make sure we say the

same thong in -- same thing in bristol. i want to do trade with europe, but not go over to bros sells and say something different. >> how on earth does it help to join together with a bunch of anti-semits and people who deny climate change exists. that doesn't help britain. we need to change the european union. you change clubs of which you are a member by getting stuck in and not standing on the side lines and complaining. >> these two guys remind me of my two young boys squabbling at bath time. they are squabbling about whether to have referendums on the european union. what we need is jobs and growth and economic recovery. we work with our partners to get that. the sooner nick realized also we had to work with america and europe to get economic growth in the future the

better. i am afraid david is anti-european and nick is anti-american and both are out of touch with reality. >> it is a question of wanting to get things for your country and standing up for your country. one of the things the liberal democrats want to do is actually take away britain's seat on the united nations security council and replace it with a european one. that's one of the things that gives us the ability to punch up our weight in the world. >> nick clegg. >> there is no chance to get a seat in the security council. we are stronger. we were just chairman of the g20 as a result of the efforts we made in the economy. we are leading the negotiations on climate change and -- >> final word. >> they are stories to frighten you to think we can't changing europe. we can change europe. i have been in there and have had changes. >> we will have to move on now.

>> question b comes from bristol. stewart. >> given our involvement from afghanistan, if there is another multi national operation to remove al-qaeda or another terrorist group from a failed state, would the uk participate? >> so, will the uk take part in future multi national operations against terrorists abroad. nick clegg? >> well clearly, the principal reason we went to afghanistan and why i supported the action is because we believe if you let afghan to be a haven of extremism and terrorism there will be more terrorist attacks here in britain. from that principal if we need to do that again we should. the problem, of course, is that we have done it in a manner where we didn't pursue the right strategy and ifn --

haven't given the right things to our troops and haven't worked with other countries in the region to do so. i think if you put soldierses into harm's way you either do the job properly or don't do it at all. let's make sure we have the right equipment and right strategy so they come back doing the job we asked them to do with heads held high. >> let's be honest. we already have al-qaeda in somalia. we already have problems with al-qaeda in yemen. we are having to take action with our multilateral problems to deal with the problems and we will continue to have to do so. why are we in afghanistan? and why do we have to be vigilant all the time? the reason is there is a chain of terror that links these al-qaeda groups in different parts of the world and action that could happen in the united kingdom. every week i get a report,

sometimes every day, of terrorist plots and most arrive in the afghanistan-pakistan area, and we have to deal with it. to keep the streets safe in britain, we have to take on al-qaeda wherever it is. i also have to say about afghanistan that this is a mission that can work. the reason is we are training up the afghan soldiers. so when ever we are in a mission abroad, we have to make sure we have a means by which in that country we can build up their own security staff so that we can bring our troops home. that is my mugs. -- that is my mission. >> if i was your prime minister i would can to think, what is in the national interest? what will make us safer in the united kingdom? we need to end the division between foreign policy and security policy and home office policy. bring it together and think about the national security. i would also say this: if you look at future operations like that, we have to learn from the mistakes of the past.

we have to make sure we plan properly. we have to make sure we never end is our troops into battle without the proper equipment, without the proper helicopters. we have to think through not what we are doing militarily, but is the aide there. are we helping these people? do we have a political strategy for how we will get out of that country once we try to make it safe with our allies? in the case of afghanistan, far too many questions were not answered. even now while i support what we are doing, i worry we are not doing enough to get the political situation right in afghanistan. >> mr. clegg. >> everyone agrees if we were to do this again, which is stewart's question, we need to make sure we have the right equipment and resources. that's why i think it is essential that after the next election, who ever wins, there is a full defense review and we can look at where we are spending money and whether we are providing the troops on the front line with the resources they need. i don't think we are spending

money on the right things. consuming billions of pounds and i don't think it is right to do what dave -- david cameron and gordon brown wants. now we have to make a decision to spend up to $100 billion pounds renewing in the same old way the cold wear nuclear missal system. maybe you can equip our troops so they don't get so terribly over stretched as they were in fighting two wars on two fronts in iraq and in afghanistan. >> gordon brown, my first thoughts will always be for our troops and for our dedicated forces and professional forces we have got to do everything we can to support them. there will be a defense review and we can do our best by forces. what happened on christmas eve? it was a bomber in detroit and bombing that plane. it came from somalia and that

was where he was given his orderses from. we have got to deal with al-qaeda in somalia and yemen and we have to be clear that we cannot allow terrorists to have territory in the world, but then they use as a base for attacking the united kingdom. i will do everything i can to protect people, but there are great forces i want to pay tribute to this evening. >> i completely agree with gordon brown. i have been to afghanistan four times. ef actual you are just blown away by the professionalism of these people. i wept for a run this morning from somebody who just went to afghanistan, but he served for six months and he did an incredible job there. just going back to the point how we get these things right. one of the things that strikes you when you go to afghanistan is you are not getting the political situation right. the south of the country iser where the taliban grew and

where it came from. we see the national army and they are dominated by other parts of the country. and there is a big political issue there. we have to make sure the whole country feels its part of the afghan government. and that's key for making sure we can bring our soldiers back home. not just training the afghan army and police, vital as that is, we need a political settlement as well to make sure we can come home. >> even if you decide and if we as a country decide to under take a mission like that again, there is no point deciding that you want to do it unless you also know how and unless we can provide the necessary resources. i remember when i was visiting the troops, i talked to some mechanics who look after the vehicles and they were telling me that a convoy -- they had been on a convoy previously that normally takes one day to get from one place to the other. it took them a week. anytime the vehicles broke down in the sands there, they didn't have the necessary

path. they had to take paths from other vehicles. if we do this again we cannot, cannot, cannot allow 8 years to lapse. that's what happened until proper equipment is being prowed to our very, very courageous servicemen and women. >> we have had to change our tactics all the time because of what the taliban has been doing. originally they wanted to win a face-to-face war fighting person to person. now they use explosive devices. these explosive devices are designed to scare and maim our own troops. we have had to change our tactics and bring in the explosive experts and metal detectors and bring in the drones to survey the land. we go to pakistan and deal with the making of bombs as well. all of these things have had to happen. we have had to change our tactics again. we want to train up the afghan police and army so we are partnering with the afghan police. i would like to say with our troops, come back to the barracks, but i can't say that. our strategy in afghanistan

depends on contact with the local people, persuading them they are safe with us and safe in an afghanistan free of the taliban. we have had to change, yes, but it is in response to the tactics of the opponents. >> i would like to take up the . it would be wrong to trade off equiping our forces properly today that must be done with securing our future for the future. and i think it is the biggest decision they can make. we have got to get this right. and it is an unsafe and uncertain world. of proper placement. we don't know what the world will look like in 40 years time. it is a real risk as the liberal democrats say first to be opposed to an independent nuclear deterrent. but they can't tell us what it is. you can't take risk with this. it is really -- >> if you don't believe me, believe the several generals who wrote just this week in

the newspaper saying what i have been saying all along. why take a decision now to commit that amount of money on replacing an old cold war nuclear missile system when that system still has self-years to run, when those military people themselves say there are cheaper and better alternatives, and of course most importantly, when the world is changing. president obama said last week i think quite likely that now the greatest threat is not the cold war threats of old. it is terrorists getting uh hold of dirty bombs. try dent will not help with that. let's move with the times. take decisions when we need to take them and at least have this review which i talked about after they lx where we consider everything that is possible. >> have i to deal with these decisions every day and i have to say get real. you say iran might be able to have a nuclear weapon and you won't take action. but you say we have to give up our try dent. now, get real about the danger we face if we have north korea, iran and other countries with nuclear weapons. >> you say get real.

what is dangerous is to commit to spend a whole lot of money that we might not have on a system which almost certainly won't help and when the world is changing and we are facing new threats. you want to hold a review and exclude the one big issue which should be right at the heart of the review. >> i agree with gordon. you cannot put off this decision. we can't go and put it off. you have to make it early and you have to keep your country safe and secure. you can't wries ep it up -- wrestle it up at the last second. we have to move to the next question which comes from nicholas tanner. >> given climate change is one of the biggest threats we face, what have you personally done in the last six months to use more environmentally friendly and sustainable forms of transport such as bikes and trains rather than cars and planes?

>> what are you doing personally? >> i have been on trains all the time. i don't think i have been on anymore than one plane during this election campaign. i have been going around by train. i think actually a high speed rail will allow people to get off the roads and also to get off domestic air flights and that's incredibly important. i would say the other thing i have done and i am pleased we managed to do this is we thought living on a hill with a huge amount of wind, not good weather in scotland as you know, but a wind turbine would be the answer. we found farber even in this area where there is not much sun is a solar panel. and i recommend to people to use this form of energy because it allows us to heat our water that is far more environmentally friend lee. we have the first climate change act and there is a lot more to be done individually and as a community, but we have also got to get an agreement. we have torque with europe to

do so and work with the rest of the world and that's the way to get environmental emissions. >> when i said to my party we need to get real. it was a blue-green party and not just a blue party. i did get a letter from somebody who doesn't agree with this. he said if you are so concerned, why don't you just stop breathing. that was the moment i had to realize i had persuasion to do. the biggest thing we have done is to have proper installation in our house and it really can cut your energy bill and make life cheaper as well as greener. in the last six months, the biggest change, or the biggest change i have been able to make is coming out strongly against the third runway at heathrow. it is wrong to do that. we should be going for high speed rail insteed. -- instead. we need a high speed rail at heathrow. and making sure all of the flights people take where you could take a train, it is possible to do that. it would be a big step

forward. >> i suspect luke many people i of course try to change my behavior when i travel up to my constituency. i always travel with the train. but i didn't do enough. i am acutely aware i didn't do enough. i wish i could. i would do more. part of the problem because you referred to airplanes and you are quite right. flight, when they are able to fly and there is not too much volumeic ash creates a growing proportion of the co2 emission. what is irrational is the moment you have a tax system that taxes passengers in airplanes. that means planes are not taxed for the pollution they caused. planes are half empty or barely has passengers at all. if you change that to a per plane tax you will make a

difference in cutting down on aviation plosion. >> we need to remove the fixation about using oil. our addiction and dependence to oil. and we talk about how we can move for nuclear and oil and gas. we want 15% renewables with the world's leading offshore wind power and we want to do more in every area. the questions have i to ask these two other parties is this: why are you against nuclear power. we cannibal it out without the oil. you have a renewable targets as we do. why are you so against the onshore wound power that people are trying to develop. you seem to support it in principal, but then you seem to be against. it let's get real also about getting the energy balance right. >> of course we need an energy balance and we need nuclear

and renewables and we need a whole range. it is a great opportunity for our country to do these things. but i think one of the biggest opportunities we have got is with our own homes. we want to say to everyone in this country that you could spend up to 6 and a half,000 pounds to better insulate it and better protect it. we will have companies and box dispensers to come and carry out their work and share in a reduction of the bills. that will show people going green can save you money and it can get britain working again. it can cut carbony -- carbon emissions. for those reasons i want it to be a part of the speech if i was elected as your prime minister. >> but you are doing it already. we are off onering people the incentives. >> gordon brown asked about nuclear power. i don't have a -- an opposition, but it is very,

very expensive. there are some calculations that it would lead to average energy bills increasing in the country. it takes a long, long, longtime to build the plants. all experts agree it will take well into the next decade to create it. for a fraction of the money that i think david grown and gordon brown want to spend on sub saw dieding the nuclear industry. it is a program of our homes and schools and hospitals. remember, 27% of all carbon dye jokz sides in this country goes out your window and through the roof of your house. if we only energy more efficiently and invested some of the money that would be wasted on big projects on wind, energy and other renewable engines, that is the way toward a sustainable future. >> you can't have a mod concern -- a modern policy without nuclear power.

i met young guys yesterday, and girls, who were working on an energy project in whales. they were taken on and were in the business of helping insulation and giving people advice about the out of energy. we are trying to do this at the moment and will do more in future years. yes we have to insulate the houses and yes we need them where possible, and yes we need the electric car. we are invising in that. and we have to develop offshore wind par. any party that sex cluing nuclear power that is a substantial part of our country is not thinking about the needs of a tiewt where we cannot be dependent on these high oil prices are forever. >> the situation is worse than gordon brown describes. according to the government's figures, we are heading for power cut in 2017. they should have a great emergency. we need to look at the number of gas storage and france and

germany have 100 days. we have a little over two weeks. we need to make sure we get the renewables faster. we will see the lights go out. that's because they have. so many strategies. >> the one thing that hasn't been mentioned at all which is crucial as far as dealing with a global problem is acting globally. i remember the pictures of gordon brown sitting on the sidelines in the summer of copenhagen while america and china cut everybody out. if you want to lead on this, you have to lead at home and there is no point coming together as david cameron says. we need strength in numbers so we can lead in the word. this is a global problem that requires a british response. >> david has to face up to that and the proposition that

we have achieved, the countries signed plans and we are trying to persuade china and america. anti-americanism will not help us. we need to work with the climate change. >> one more thing, dl is a bit of a calm going on. a bit of a treaty is on climate change. you don't need another treaty for poll -- politicians to kick in. that's what is required. what we get from the other parties is more institutions and more regulation and more agreement. it requires political will. you don't need a treaty, but you need to work with people who believe it exists. on the point gordon brown keeps saying, anti-americans, i have a simple attitude toward our relationship with america. it is an immensely, immensely important relationship. but it shouldn't be a one way

street. we shouldn't always do what our american friends tell us. we have to make sure we act on the world's stage in our interest and not simply at the [beckon|beacon] call of anybody else. >> i persuaded the americans to be part of the g-20 that dealt with the banking crisis and still talking them on taking actions with the area. it is a big society at home and little britain uh brord. -- abroad. >> they are just trying to frighten you, the other two parties. they don't want a britain that stands itself up. >> what about these alliances? one of the main allies is the party of the tragic accident. the politician next to me treysed the gray patriot and spokesman of that. the fact is you can cooperate and work with your european workers without signing a new treaty. >> that has to be it for now.

i suspect it will come up. let's move on now. the question from michael who is from central bristol. >> good evening. the pope accepted an invitation for september. it is at a cost of millions of pounds to taxpayers. if you win the election, will you disassociate your party from the pope's catholic priests convicted and per cuted for child abuse. treatment for child less couples, gay couples and when tiv is at an all-time high. >> thank you, michael. do you put back the pope's visit? >> i think it is welcomed. the pope is coming to britain and i would if i was your prime minister. i would want to support the visit and make sure i can do effing in my power to make it a success. there are millions in our country who will welcome that.

i think we should make a success of it. do i agree with everything the pope says? no. i don't agree with contraception or homosexuality. i think the catholic church has work to do to unearth and come to terms with some of the appalling things that have happened. they need to do that. i think we should respect people of faith. faith is important in our country. faith-based organizations whether christian or jewish or muslim or hindu do amazing things. whether it is working in prisons or helping some of the vulnerable people. so a faith where -- yes, a good visit from the pope. does it mean we have to agree with effing he said? no. >> i am not a man of faith, but my wife is catholic and my children are being brought up in her faith. so i have a little insight into the immense feelings of anguish in the catholic community here and elsewhere.

i think many catholics themselves feel extremely torn apart by what has happened. they do want to see the catholic church express great openness and repentance. you can't keep a lid on sin and you need to move with the times. i welcome the pope's visit, but i hope he will get a greater recognition. there has been terrible, terrible suffering and abusive relationships that left scars on other people's lives. but we need a process of openness and healing. you can't undo the tragedies, but you can be open about them so people will move on. >> i have met some of the people who rightly complained about the abuses thisy were subject to when young. it never leaves them. it is something with them always. and no matter what you can try to do to help. there is always a problem they have to face up to that they

were truly abused by people with whom they placed their phase and trust. they need to make sure what has happened and we help those people who has been put in due to the abuse. i want the pope to come to britain. one is the catholic church is a great part of our society and we should recognize it as such. everyone wants to see this visit take place. secondly we must break down the bauer yes, sirs that exist in our world. the fate must come together and they have common values and interest. we all believe we should be good neighbors to others. i am from the presbyterian, but i want religious faith to work more closely than of. >> i remiewnd you that he is also concerned about the attitude of the catholic

church. david cameron? >> i would say to michael that, again, i would be agreeing with you and against the pope in terms of for instance the need to make advances in science. obviously you need proper protections and proper rules and we debated them at great length. i want to see that go ahead. also on on the issue of abortion. i don't think you should stop someone visiting your country or condemn them. we must try and build a open and toll represent country where we respect people for their different faiths. we bring faith close to each other, and we are prepared to open a discussion. that's the only way to go. we actually all agree about that. >> mr. clegg. >> on this matter we do. i don't agree. i have made it publicly clear in the past i don't agree with

the formal doctrine against the gays in the catholic church. i believe there should be some uprising against the pope's visit and quite neither is us. i think the catholic community in britain want to welcome him. but it does president mean one has to subscribe to every leter and crossed t and dotted i. >> you know on all these big issues, we are proving to be a tolerant and understanding nation. we introduced civil partnerships and therefore we changed the laws on homosexuality and said to people, if you are gay or straight you have a place in british society. so i am pleased it happened in britain the last few years. i disagreed with the catholic church. if you treat a disease by using embryos enabling us to make sure people can be free

of some of the conditions that uh flekt their lives, we should do so under the right rules. i'm sorry there was a disagreement on that. i think we know that in africa -- we know around the world tts important to give them access so case they can make their own decisions. i regret the fact the catholic church does not do that. the pope should come and we will should have the debate and the hopewell comes all religions. bringing religions together is the key to make sure we have a peaceful world. >> we are going to move on now. we will take some more questions. that brings to an end the international affairs part although we may come back in subsequent questions. in a moment we will move on to the open section. before we do that, just a reminder that you can see the scotland debate this sun day. it will feature senior politicians from three parties represented here and the first minister of scotland.

please join me live this sunday at 10:30. let's move on to the next question. this question comes from mary frommont pelier. >> it is hard to find a person in the neighborhood who believes in the power of their boat. how do plan to restore phot in this political system. >> nick clegg? how do you plan to restore faith in policy. >> mary, you need to be given the power to sack any politician that is corrupt. it is something i advocated in the past and put forward in westminster. they didn't saw support that and now they say they do. you are the boss. the other thing we need to do is clean up the business of party funding. we have all had problems with party funding. there was a deal on the table. we supported it to clean up

party funding. the old party said no. david cameron wanted to protect his. we all agree on the rhetoric of cleaning up politics. but we have to afnlght one final thing, one of the reasons your friends and neighbors are perhaps right in saying they are ignored is we have this system that allows the prime minister to be in power with 22% of people voting for its party last time. many people are being ignored and we need to change that as well. >> gordon brown? >> i think can a volt make a difference, i believe it can. yes we will get the right degree call and if parrel -- parliment u.s. did president take action, you can move them. they have to be debated thank you put them in sufficient number to do so. we want a receive wren dumb on the future of the house of commons and the house of lords. you the people should have a

vote on a new system for the commons and ending the heredity system and making it for the first time elected and accountable. you know your vote matters as well. this is a big choice election. we have to secure the recovery, and it is prudent risk by policies. we need to make sure we have public services, and that is put to rest. we will build the jobs of the future and that has been put to rest by both these parties this eke. -- this evening. it is the most important and decisive election for years. our future depends on how you vote in the next few weeks. >> david cameron? >> the first thing people want to know is are they voting for a cleaned up parliament? everywhere i go it is simmering is bubbling below the surface. they are angered about the fiasco. they say, i pay my taxes to have decent politics. and they want to be absolutely

sure this will never happen again you the voters need to see ef penny. i would go on and say we also need to cut the cost of poll i can its. everyone in this country has had to make their businesses work better, so i would do that. and then simple changes that would put people back in control. i want people to choose the candidates. i agree we need to have a situation where you can sack your mp. but don't give up the way you can sack your government and throw them out. no permanent hung parrel ment's. >> you are on the front page in a telegraph today. >> i am for a complete nonsense story. complete rubbish. >> mary, one of the most heartening things, back to your question, one of the most heartening things over the last week, and it is one of the great affects of these

televised debates, more people are rushing to register to vote before it is too late. it is immensely exciting. there are lot and lots of young people. i hope i am not saying it out of turn. you look kind of young. but it is my thoughts that to be turned off by the old party politics, and they are not quite excited. they are beginning to hope and to think we can do something different. i think we can do something different but get stuck in. it is your country. it is your future assert your right to shape your own future. and i think we can make it one of the most exciting elections we have had in a very longtime. >> i was ashamed by the behavior of some of the mp's in the house of commons. what they did was completely unacceptable. no punishment is too great for them if they have to go before the courts and answer for their crimes.

i think we have to be very clear we want nobody standing at this election who is not trans parent and open about what they are doing. anybody who breeches the guide guidelines we have laid down, the independent authority should be thrown out of the house of commons and out of house of lords if they are a member of that as well. when i was talking to young people yesterday, if you asked a question, politics they would say yes. my job may depend on decisions made by governments, and then people say, i might be united. when people say my health service may depend on how much resources government is pre powered to invest in the health service and then they say politics makes a difference. when you talk about crime it makes a difference. and when you talk about schools and how you are investing in the future, that makes a difference. >> thank you, thank you. >> politics can make a difference, but the politicians have been treating the people at mugs for far too

long. they say, we can do everything. vet for us and we will solve all your problems. let's pass a few more laws and regulations and then spend more money. and it is not true. it is a big lie. the truth is, if you really want to change things and if you want safer schools, yes, the government has its role, but we have our responsibility too. we have to bring up our children properly and work with the school. we have to make sure we help the police. the real solutions come when we all say i have responsibilities as well that go beyond paying my taxes. it is my society. i want to join with them to change the country and make it a better place. that's a more honest answer for how we get the change we need it our country. >> i take response but for my decisions and i ask people to take responsibility.

you can't run the health service on a do it yourself principal. you have to finance it properly. >> can i go back -- >> why -- >> can i just go back to mary's question which is about people feeling switched off from politics, something neither of the parties want to address is this: we have a culture of jobs for life in politics. hundreds and hundreds of mp's from conservative parties and the labor parties who basically know all i need to do ef 4 or 5 years is get the votes of 20 to 30% of people in the community and ignore everybody else of course you start getting in trouble with expenses. if you give people jobs for life no questions asked and then they start cuting corners. that's what we need to change. house of the lords and all of the areas. >> all parties have had to take action. we will clean up the politics for every party. anybody who commits an offense is out. they shouldn't be in poll

tucks at all. public service is about serving the public and not serving yourself. >> i would like to respond to something gordon brown said. he said he asked people to take responsibility. one of the problems is if you do the right thing. if you take responsibility you are punished rather than rewarded. if you work hard and save, actually you don't get the government. you get punished. always you are meeting couples who say we are trying to get everything together before we get married, before we have children. they feel people who don't do the right thing get pushed up the ladder ahead of them. i think there is a sense of unfairness in our country today which goes to the heart of some of the you are yous we have in our policy. >> the biggest unfairness is that the biggest beneficiary from your manifesto is the three richest people in the country who get 200,000 each. now if you want to be fair you don't give people an inheritance tax and then cut tax credits for middle class

families. you don't cut the trust fund. >> poor mary asked about politics and now we are talking tax credits. >> you wanted to talk about tax credits as well. >> we need to make sure people are responsible where he have made big mistakes. it is a fact there are a number of mp's who flip their home from one to the next and paying from your taxpayer-funded expenses to buy properties and do them up and sell them examine buy them and sell them and pocket the difference in personal profit and still haven't been held to account. you can't move on unless people have done something seriously wrong. expenses can make people angry. politicians say i just obey the rules. some say, well, my party was much better than all the others. frankly, nick, we all had problems with this. whether it was moats or

kitchens and the rest of it. don't anyone put themselves on a ped daw still. let's sort it out and clean it up and realize we were all in this mess. >> nobody should standing at this election if they are not transparent and tell you everything about their finances. they shouldn't be having second jobs either and that's all too common in the house of commons. they should have food time. they shouldn't be in a position where they are not telling you every month what they are doing. if they are not doing the right thing in a opt corrupt you have a right to recall them. that's the most important thing we can do to clean up a terrible scandal and something i am ashamed of. >> of course no one is blemish free. if you are going to try to persuade people into politicians, it is just not good enough to talk the talk and not walk the walk. you can't say you want to clean up --

>> time is most definitely up. now we are moving on to a question from grace lane who is from primm. >> having been -- having brought up 5 children and reached the age of 84. do all of you think that a state pension, a 59 pound per wait is a just reward? >> the answer is no, grace. i'm sorry that has happened. i hope you get the pension cle which is an att

>> that is wrong. it is wrong that energy companies charge you more for the first bits of energy you use in your home than the later bits. that means somebody is heating a 5-story mansion is paying less for their energy than somebody heating a 1 bedroom flat. that needs to change so we can give you the dignity you deserve. >> gordon brown. >> well, i think grace's issue is every woman should have a full state pension. it is right we say that is what we are going to do as part of the pension reforms. but that's also the case that everyone who works for an employer will now also have an occupational pension. and that is another change we are making that is coming in in the parliament to come. when we look at the needs it is true to say we need help with social care in the home, and that's what we are introducing over the next few months so people don't have to go into old people's homes if they want to stay at home they

can get the home helps that is necessary for them so they can have comfort in their own homes. i have one or two manifestos for the other party. done honest, nick has a problem in his manifesto. he seems to be cutting the budget. and i would like them to explain what in fact they propose to do. >> i think it is disgraceful to try and frighten people in an election campaign as gordon brown has just done and as the labor party is doing up and down the country. i would like to say clearly to anyone in the audience or listening at home that we will keep the free television license, keep the pension credit and keep the winter fuel allowance and keep the free bus paths. the letters you have been getting from labor are pure and simple lies. a politician should