big trouble, your dad would not be happy with you. >> join us tomorrow, we have a 12-year-old girl who saved a life base onned what she learned from sponge bob, join us for after the show-show. >> here i come, thank you, see >> here i come, thank you, see you. captioned by closed captioning services, inc. >> protecting consumers or destroying jobs, concerns growing over white house plans to create a new massive governor bureaucracy. in the name of keeping american consumers safe. one business group already warning it won't protect anyone and it will end up hurting job creators. who's got it right? hi, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears, let's get right down to it. bulls and beers this week, jerry b smith, tobin smith, pat dorsey along with fox business network's brian sullivan and mark levin. welcome everybody. toby, is this a job killer? >> of course it's a job killer, unintended consequences are starting now.

for instance, if you're a dentist or a furniture store and want to extend credit, if it's more than four payments, it comes under the tent of bureaucracy. if you don't lend as much and you don't have as many employees. it's not rocket science, when you overregulate you underemploy. >> actually, mark, you like this, huh. like it a lot. all this does is allows consumers know the truth. they want them to think they're paying a hundred bucks, but then after four years and 23%, lo and behold they're paying $400. the only people who lose jobs are people trying to scam consumers, i don't care if they lose their job, they've already lost their souls. >> brenda: there's going to be some job creation in washington d.c. >> bureaucracy, if you want to get into real estate do it in the washington metropolitan area and jobs are going to come. i agree with toby. you may not like jp morgan chase, using them as an example, spinning off the trading desk

and hedge fund units are making money. what's left. a hulk after bank, with commercial real estate loans that may or may not go bad. they're in the going to lend company to who, companies who want to expand and do what, hire people. >> you heard that, that's good, actually. >> brenda: that was good. gary b. >> what's wrong with preventing fraud? telling consumers what they're buying. >> we already have the laws they've got to enforce them for crying out loud. we have laws this thick on this issue. >> the agency won't do this. >> that's right. >> brenda: hold on, gary b, why do we need a new agency? >> boy, that is, that is the million dollar question, why? because it's the obama administration's way of taking over our entire economy, brenda. look, this is going to be yet another government agency that gets in between and in the way and creates friction between businesses and consumers. look, you've already seen the effect on the credit card industry, you know, rates are

now up. it's harder to get credit cards, and the effect of all of this limiting credit, which is really the intent of this bill this bill is put in place to eliminate the kind of credit that the obama administration doesn't like, the problem is, it's already been studied by george mason's come out with a study acut 60,000 jobs a year. the reason, toby smith had a good example. wealthier people that come up with money to fund companies like google and things like that, they'll be restricted, they'll be under the auspices of these and it will take months to get approval and not just a couple of days now and so all of that credit throughout the board is going to be cut. the people that need it most, small businesses are going to be hurt and there's your loss of jobs. >> that's the only time you've ever been associated with an angel. >> well. >> hold on, let me get to pat though. pat, what do you think of this bill? >> well, i mean, as toby points out there are anti-fraud,

anti-predator yal lending on the books, that's poorly enforced. and this is the consumer protection of a large bill the stuff is out there and there's no point in doing it and creating a second set of regulations that won't get enforced either and doesn't make any sense whatsoever. what i don't want to see is, you know, the kind of silliness of this part of the bill kill the whole thing, 'cause there are some positive aspects to it that clean up the regulatory structures surrounding large banks, but this part testify the laws are already on the books, it's a nonissue. >> brenda: let's get to that, mark. what is different? what does this agency provide that we don't already have? >> it is a one stop shopping for consumers. i don't know about you, but i've been defrauded by lots of businesses and there are banks right now that will charge you a $25 fee for not something enough money in the bank. i don't know how else-- >> that's a contract. >> don't have enough money. >> defrauded-- >> it's simple, watch your

statements before you spend it. >> i mean, you can't let the-- >> this is' all kinds of business, they sell things, this is wrong. a way for consumers to have protection, if a business defrauds you, if a business says it's going to cost you one thing and throw you on with additional charges in the back. then you-- >> don't do business with them. >> right, change companies. >> well, you can't. listen i've got to tell you i've gone to better business bureau, we don't trust this company. a nice way for consumer, what is wrong with telling consumers. >> what companies are you doing business with that you're being defrauded by? >> that's what i want to know. >> i've gone on the internet and don't give me what they said they're going to give me. what this bill mostly does. this-- >> how is. >> brenda: hold on, hold on, let mark finish, mark? >> if you go, if you go to joe bob's bookstore.com and they don't send you the book you ordered that's not a federal issue. it's not the federal level. if i go in the furniture store and buy a piece of furniture and they charge me this installment plan and hidden in the fine print is hundreds of dollars of

extra charges i didn't see and know about i'm out of luck. >> mark. >> and it's going to give us a number and say you're going to pay $532 and i know that's what i'm going to pay. what is wrong telling the consumer what they're going to pay. >> brenda: hey, hole on. >> what's wrong with that? >> actually there's some fraud sometimes in governmentsi bureaucracies that brian might tell us the sec. >> you've got to watch the credit card payments on the online porn sites they might stick you with extra charges. in 1934, the sec passed sweeping changes and sarbanes oxley was to stop fraud. and stopped banks from failing, note my sarcasm. >> i worked for a company that opposed sarbanes oxley and only because of barney frank who i worked for a-- >> let's not get into this issue. we were talking about this agency and the sec.

look, here is the sec that does such a great job, it turns out they can actually find porno, but can't find bernie madoff. these are the type of people. >> with clothes off. >> listen, i work alone (laughter) >> the bigger issue, when we look at common sense, let's take common sense, which is not to add another level of bureaucracy that is from a failed business model that can't find their way out of-- >> do you rell think consumers know where to go if they've been defrauded that they know where to go? this way they can have 1-800 number and call up and say, hello, government, this guy told me he was going to charge me $100 and he charged me $500. >> mark, credit is not a social right. >> i don't have a right to defraud you. >> they slapped other fees on and paid it off and shut my account down, it's not a social right. >> actually if you buy the furniture on the installment plan and know what you're paying, you're point the government nanny state needs to tell me. how about the buyer figure out

what the hell they're paying. >> brenda: guys, hold on. >> and contracts-- >> let me ask you one question, is this going to kill jobs, toby. >> no. >> yes, it absolutely does in many companies vendor finance. sales get cut, jobs get cut. >> brenda: brian. >> no, not inside the beltway. >> brenda: there we go. mark, is it going to kill jobs? >> the only jobs it will kill are those who are trying to defraud consumers and they deserve to lose their jobs. >> brenda: gary b. >> anytime you put an agency in that's going to cut credit you have to kill jobs by definiting. >> brenda: pat? >> demand for credit is shrinking right now so, i think the effect is probably pretty bill although i don't like the idea of it. >> come on, pat, get excited. >> brenda: we've learned that the toby-brian team, pretty good. coming up. >> i guess voters didn't buy it.

neil's gang on the no vote that should have democrats in d.c. running scared and oh, yeah, jack welch is here, that's reason enough to stick around, isn't it? but first, they told us that the health care law will push down our medical bills. wait till you hear what the government's health agency just told us. een checked for cortical spreading depression. [ doctor ] yeah. actuly, he was. november 11, 2009. came back negative. march 23, 2007, a c.t. scan for nasal polyps -- also negative. july 1, 2006 -- advised to quit smoking. january 4... [ male announcer ] imagine a day when your medical history could be in one, secure place, easily accessed by your doctors who could collaborate more effectively and treat you better. thanks, guys. i got it from here. makes sense. can i have my pants back, actually? [ male announcer ] electronic medical records from ge. better health for more people. ♪

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>> from america's news headquarters, hi, i'm jamie colby.

the toughest immigration rules in the country are now laws in arizona. the governor there signing a controversial new bill targeting illegal immigration, but it's already challenged on a couple of fronts. two advocacy groups say they'll go to court over it and president obama is telling the justice department he wants to know if it's constitutional. the law makes it a state crime to be in the country illegally and permits police officers to ask about a person's immigration status if there's reason to think they're here illegally. and the coast guard looking for 11 missing after the oil rig explosion off the louisiana coast and they believe the men never made it off the platform. crews are cleaning up debris. officials haven't determined what caused the massive blast, back to bulls and bears, i'm jamie colby, keep it on fox. >> brenda: 32 days and the price tag grows by 311 billion bucks. a new health and human services

report finding the health care law will drive medical costs up, not down. republicans saying, we told you so. hhs secretary kathleen sebelius and the white house saying the report is low-balling the savings, but gary b, what say you? >> you know, brenda, for months on this show and across, you know, fox news, fox business, we've been saying there is not going to be a pony under that christmas tree and i'll tell you what, this report proves it and tell you what, i'm skeptical this report for one reason, i think it low-balls that 300 billion dollar deficit over ten years, i think it's going to be ten times that as we've talked about because that's the history of government involvement in this. and the rational is easy, it's clear, the reason there's such a deficit was that the demand will greatly exceed the supply already. some employers are talking about for getting rid of their company health insurance, so, because it's going to be cheaper, if you

will, for them just to shove their insurance on the government. consists will be up across the board, i tell you what, this is going to be a bigger mess than even this report says. >> brenda: well, mark, this is the president's people. they're the ones who are saying this. >> all you have to do to read to report to say there's nothing wrong, if you're currently insured you're going to have to pay more money and you health health care. if you're currently insured, save money and pay less for health insurance, that's good for people who currently get health insurance, yet all the numbers together. extra money paid by the currently unsured, 30 million people and savings from people who currently are insured and finds it's going to go up total 1% over ten years, and a neglible amount, but everyone is better off. >> brenda: first of all, brian, it's supposed to go down. second of all, 1% usually turns into-- >> yeah, look at the cost curve

growth in medicare since it was started. a massive increase and what's going to happen here is probably what's going to happen in canada, the wealthy people pay their taxes and leave it get health care elsewhere or there's a black market in canada. if you've got enough money, you see private doctors and pay cash. if health insurance companies start losing the healthy and the wealthy and do their own thing shall the pool becomes only people who are maybe ill or not taking care of themselves, right, obesity is a major problem, guess what happens then? costs skyrocket for everybody. >> does this scare you? >> well, yes, it scares me for a couple of reasons. one as an employer, already, we're-- we'll take our people and put them off our plan because it doesn't make any sense for us to pay the rate. now, what happens is when they go on to self-funded go buy their own insurance from blue cross/blue shield, unfortunately the government mandated in this plan that they get this cadillac plan that all the stuff they really don't want, but they will have to pay for cheaper for them to pay the $700 or $1,000 fine

to pay for this stuff however, when they're sick they'll jump into the insurance and we'll have to take them and 2300% higher expenditure for those people who jump out. they're going to game the system. >> brenda: pat, af been saying all along cost containment is not the reason for the bill and has not been considered. does this surprise you, this report? >> not really. because again, the focus was increasing coverage. and argue all day whether that's a good or bad thing. that's the focus, not attacking the root issue, such as the piece work away, that health care is paid for in the united states. tort reform, the various issues that really drive up the cost curve over the long run, nothing fundamental about cost savings was ever on the table, simply because the system is so broken, to really address the root causes, you have to blow it up and start over, no one was willing to do that. >> brenda: mark, name one agency that's cost less than it was originally budgeted for. >> well, you know, we have inflation, we have population

growth, that grows over time. let me tell you why people are saving money. >> brenda: i guess that's a no, you have no known. at least admit it, come on (laughter) >> i've said this in the past, this is not going to be a democrat, republican issue, in the long run, old versus young. the demographic trends are striking, 80 year olds who want hip replacements paid for my medicare no matter what they've put into the system and eventually somebody, maybe in some ways, the president and his staff is correct. some point cuts out the cost curve with the aging population and it's going to be nearly impossible to pay for this, yes. >> brenda: we forgot to tell brian he could only use two syllable words. >> did he say cost curve. >> brenda: last word, gary b? >> i tell you why, you summed it up perfectly, brenda. once the government gets involved, costs go up. brian said it, medicare, medicaid, social security,

forget it, this is another way of bankrupting one system of the economy, it's coming to your town soon. >> brenda: thanks, guys. uncle sam is creating a dangerous new housing bubble right now and using your tax dollars to do it? one of the most respected housing experts says he has the numbers to prove it. ooo

>> 50 seconds, taxpayers are funding an in housing bubble that's about to explode on our economy. the d.c. home bailout that could lead to more bailouts.

>> new home sales surging 27% last month. the biggest jump in 47 years, before you celebrate, hear this,

one of america's top housing guys calling it a new mini bubble. one the government is creating with bailouts and tax credits to spur the buying. even worse, there's a 50% chance it will blow up in our face again. toby, what do you say about that? >> well, it's a fact. as a matter of fact, you know, if the federal government's giving 90% the home mortgages out the last 18 months which is true and number two the cash for clunkers, except it's cash for clunker for a house, that he have' created the market and when that goes away real key manned will find itself and it ain't this level and would i say this i want our 13 billion dollars back. they threw it in there and didn't ask us. i want the 13 billion back. >> brenda: 1.8 million households, 13 billion bucks, mark, was it worth it? >> absolutely, it will not cause a housing bubble, tell you why, it's a short-term program much like cash for clunkers sell us house april 30th. >> brenda: supposed to end six

months ago and kept getting extended. >> the entire-- >> it does not create a bubble because it's short-term. cash for clunkers wasn't extended. what it does, it kept the auto market going in a difficult time and this keeps the housing market doing gg in a difficult time and the auto market is doing well, thank you, cash for clunkers. >> mark, don't worry those are euros toby's got, aren't going to be worth much in the long run. if you want a private sector loan you want a credit score of 700. an fha lone, 580 only 14% of the country has a worse score than that and if you use the tax credit you can get a home with, wait for it, nothing down because the tax credit-- >> that sounds familiar, brian. >> nothing down, bad credit don't worry we'll get you a home. that makes me a little nervous. >> brenda: gary b is this sustainable, this recovery, or just created by washington? >> well, obviously it's created by washington, brenda and mark

did have one part right. he says it's a short-term fix. yes, that's almost the definition of a bubble. yeah, it's short-term because the government flooding the market with these, the buyer tax credit, the new home buyer tax credit, and not to mention, all of these low interest rates that the government's been offering via the federal reserve, keeping interest rates low which found its way into the mortgage market. that's spurred-- >> gary you know what a bubble is. >> hold on. >> a bubble when you're-- >> let me finish, let me finish. that spurred this demand for homes. once that goes away, once the fed starts jacking up interest rates, now that the income credit, the buyer credit's gone away, what's going to happen to those artificially inflated prices? it's got to go down, again, by definiting, there's your bubble. housing prices have to go down. >> brenda: hold on mark, one minute. i want pat in here. what's your view on this? >> well, certainly, i mean, the fha is replicating some of the worse excesses of the prime

bubble back in '05, '06 bingo. >> i would hesitate be so bombastic to call it a bubble. >> brenda: a baby bubble. >> hang on, there's not a systemic crisis that's going to blow aup whole lot of banks like a few years ago to make sure we're clear about that, but it's unsustainable demand and when that goes away house prices will come down. >> it will only blow up the fha. >> only blow up our government. >> brenda: wait, i've got to give ten seconds to mark before he goes. >> eight seconds, mark. >> okay, a bubble is when you have more demand than is dictated by the market n a recession you have less demand that should be dictated by the market, what president roosevelt learns in the 1930's, how the government gets you out of depression. >> brenda: we're going to leave you with that, all right? and thank you very much for joining us, you're good sport. it's back! with a vengeance. cash for clunker appliances selling out everywhere, are taxpayers the ones getting sold

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>> toby is up first. >> another clunger except for is for appliances. 300 million dollar waste of moan. whirlpool whr benefits. great earnings coming out of this quarter and great earnings the next couple quarters. >> brenda: the cash for appliances. >> i get the clunkers mixed up. >> brenda: you like to bring up dirty laundry. gary b what do you think of it. >> face as all time high 15% to

the upside and that's where i'd sell, i think about 15%. >> first right through like dirty laundry. >> brenda: gary b, your prediction. >> tell you goldman right now, who knows what's going to happen with that company, that stock. avoid that for now, citigroup though i really like a lot and i think that's a double over the next 12 months. >> brenda: bull or bear, toby. >> a slight bull. about $8 stock i'll take $8 though. >> brenda: pat your prediction quickly. >> exxon-mobile, people have been selling this stock down and oil prices up, more defensive. a wonderful business and allocation on the cheap. >> brenda: toby like it. >> don't like it, so much of the oil is off shore and much higher costs than that stuff. >> brenda: brian. >> pat is right i'm going to be wrong, but apple the largest company in america in market cap. hits $360 a share and exxon doesn't move from here and surpass exxon, if pat is right i have to be wrong. >> brenda: pat, bull or bear. i like apple here a lot. i don't think they're going to