have broken through some daylight, but won't be able to grab them until tuesday. a slow process. >> and a doctor and rescuer down there first, and we will have more on that on tomorrow's show. >> and we'll talk more with the new york city firefighters. firefighters. >> this you know, the jobless rate is stuck at 9.6%. but did you know this, it might be your fault. white house economic advisor diana ferrell saying in the job market, folks, we have a mismatch and it's a skill issue and education issue. so is it because we don't have the skills or because the white house policies aren't smart enough? hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears, let's get to it. the bulls and bears, gary b smith, jonas max ferris, john bradford lakefield along with the star of wall street 2, tom, the ceo of john thomas financial and caroline

hellman, associate professor of politics at occidental college, welcome to everybody. gary b. gosh, i knew it was your fault. >> yeah, exactly. i mean, this is just, you know, this administration, i give them credit, they are masters of the spin. putting the blame back on the public, the fact of the mart is, let's just say, everyone was super educated. the only area of the economy that is even anywhere near full employment is those top mana manageal executive positions. every other position below that is wreaking of unemployment. one of the main emphasis on stimulus spending was shovel-ready projects and yet the construction industry, unemployment there is at 17%. unemployment amongst african-americans is 16%

total, teenagers, 20%. it's clearly, this is not our problem. the problem is if the government would get out of the way, stop the spin, stop spending our money, stop putting us into further deficit. maybe the economy would have chance of healing. until the government stays away, we have no chance. >> brenda: caroline, i guess, just to be fair, really the concept was perhaps we're not skilled enough to do things like put in solar panels or all the rest. >> well, the fastest growing sectors right now are information technology, education and health care, all of which require training and because of the housing, we have construction or industries like construction where job opportunities have been lost and what she's dealing with, ms. ferrell is we have unemployed americans and 3 million job openings, that's an unprecedented amount for different the high unemployment rate. so, she's dealing with that and saying look, we need to retrain and get people into

denver sectors because the sectors that people used to be employed in, that's no longer a possibility. so i think it's a positive thing. and you know, i've been very much disagree that the government should step out of it because they have preserved 2.8 million jobs as a result of the economic stimulus. >> i know in my economics textbook, i don't know about-- i do know the unemployment rate and it's not budging. is that because we're-- >> i think that's what the administration would like you to think the answer is more government. it's not. look, with the manufacturing sector stop being so important, those jobs went immediately into the housing sector. which was furnished by a bubble. once that bubble stopped because of the glut in inventory those jobs are not coming back for years, if they come back then. that's what we're dealing with with these unemployed people and you can retrain them all they want. they are not going to be programmers at google. it is simply not going to

happen. we have no energy plan in place. you want to create millions of jobs? stop this anti-business administrati administration, stopping solar farms, wind farms and nuclear from being built. allow drilling and you will create millions of jobs for these people and stop sending humps of billions overseas. until we do that, unemployment is going to ten to creep up. >> caroline, let me get you, get a quick word in for you, before somebody else. >> i would respond that i don't know why a construction worker couldn't be retrained to be a programmer at google if she wanted to, with proper education. that's the point. >> google doesn't need 6 million programmers, i'm sorry to say that, they don't. >> i don't know what that-- of course they don't. nobody claiming that, what we need is move people into sectors where there are job opportunities and i don't believe that insulting construction workers and say they can't move into the sectors is something you want to do. >> brenda: is there really unfilled jobs out there? >> 3 million, 3 million

unfilled jobs, now, granted part of them are part-time. >> brenda: yes. and-- >> and part-time and also an issue with housing mobility and people can't take advantage of them because of the housing crisis so if you're renting you're better able to move to find job opportunities. it's complicated, but there are 3 million job openings right now. >> brenda: tom, do you buy that? >> not at all. brenda, look at this. this administration is so lost in the wilderness now without a compass. there are thousands of college graduates that can't find jobs, why? because of the mismanagement of the stimulus. we have a situation that's unprecedented and could get worse if they want to issue the stimulus to go to government workers, that's now how you rebuild the american economy. nonetheless, get more people hired, by new employers, it's not going to happen. >> brenda: actually, jonas, a great point of tom, there's college graduates, ph.d.'s taking, you know, filling some part-time jobs. and can't find what they were

trained in. >> that point was fairly good. the other guest i have to say points seem to be for the-- i kept hearing points i would think the white house would be making, which is there are all these unemployed people in fields like construction and good employment in certain middle management jobs and there are people who have skills not needed in the new economy. you're not going to need that many construction peoplement and someone has to train the people to get other work or they will be working at wal-mart where there are jobs and a lot of jobs in this economy, maybe not the ones that people don't want in certain degrees and certain school programs. i don't know what role the government is going to play in that whether the private sector will do. there are jobs, but people that don't have to train for those jobs and thinking jobs from other countries and outsourcing high end jobs for those skill sets like in tech. >> gary b, is that the and now to the millions who are unemployed and can't find work? >> know he, i mean, look, retraining people, first of all, the great majority of

those millions of people either don't want to be retrained or are unable to be relocated housing crisis or not, they're just not going to move from flint, michigan or wherever they are. i totally disagree with what the caroline's points and jonas' point to say those construction will never come back. it was president obama himself who said many teams that the nation's infrastructure is falling apart. we've already talked about the fact that our national energy grid is falling apart. there are millions of construction jobs out there. and as i hate to repeat a point, but it was he himself who said about all of these shovel ready projects, there's plenty of projects out there, drive down the highway, and you tell me where there can't be, my gosh, this road is perfect, should never be fixed and bridges, tunnels, et cetera, et cetera, but the government is mucking things up with a huge amount of red tape. huge restrictions and there's construction jobs out there. you've just got to let the free market-- >> and build those roads and--

>> and hold on, hold on, i'm sorry. >> and the whole idea-- >> wait please! sorry. we are going to get into stimulus in the next block. let's stick right now how smart we are and the education that it might take to take one person in one job to across the country to another one in another job. tom? >> listen, i think it's more than that. and let me start with this administration. for them to tell our people that they're incompetent and that's why the jobless numbers are higher than they should be is disheartening. this administration will not take blame for the incompetencesies of what they've done. that's the bottom line in my opinion and has nothing to do with the other part, but that's what i believe. if they dent start shaping up, they're going to have big change in november. >> brenda: that's the bottom line and at the bottom of the hour, set us free. the white house considering letting more companies out of the health care laws, the number is stunning. but first, forget new reports

of folks and prisoners getting stimulus checks. some here say we need a lot more stimulus waste and fraud to create jobs? what? tion, they could have shipped it too. saved ourselves the hassle. i'm not too sure about this. look at this. [ security agent ] right. you never kick off with sales figures. kicking off with sales figures! i'm yawning. i'm yawning some more. aaaaaaaand... [ snores ] i see your pnt. yeah. snores ] [ malannouncer ] we understand.® you need a partner who delivers convenience. next time use fedex office. [ man ] if it was simply about money, every bank loan would be a guarantee of success. at ge capital, loaning money is the start of the relationship, not the end. work with polaris every day. at ge capital, we succeed only when they do. whoo!

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if you don't love the results, you'll get your money back, guaranteed. go online now for a $3 coupon. and love the skin you're in. >> live from america's news headquarters, a huge break through, literally for the trapped miners after more than two months underground we've reached the men. it's an exciting moment and could be still three to eight days before they can actually get the guys out of the mines and the rescue team must decide if that shaft is stable enough to get the miners out and hungary's warning the reservoir pulling back a pool of toxic sludge could collapse at any moment and new situations underway after officials learned a crack in the concrete wall has widened. so far, several people have died and hundreds wounded when the sludge flooded several

hung garrion towns this week. log on to foxnews.com, and your he a watching the most powerful name in news, fox news channel. don't go away. we'll be right back. >> brenda: one week after the white house praises the lack of waste in stimulus, news breaks, 89,000 checks, went out to dead people, and prison inmates. and unless the recipient returns the money there's no way to get it back. believe it or not, though someone here says we have more jobs right now if we have more waste like this, caroline? >> i guess that would be me. >> my point, my point is not to defend fraud, but my point is that if you have an average of 2% fraud and abuse in any situation, public or private. cutting that down to 1% and pri priorizing that and we saw

with hurricane katrina and devastating. they were concerned with fraud and abuse over getting the money out and so years later we have poor neighborhoods that have not been rebuilt. that's the point. >> and you probably think all of this is waste and fraud? >> you better believe it is. call stimulus one placebo one and stimulus two placebo two, is a pie in the sky dreams. this is not stimulus, period. you created no jobs. transfer moneys that went to state so the states didn't have to balance the budget. 17% unemployment and 3 million job openings right now comes out of the sports page i guess, but what the government has done is create safety nets. they have not done anything to stimulate the economy and until you remove uncertainty, which means removing government, you're going to have more cash on balance sheets than anytime in history and it's going to stay there because they will not invest in assets like factory and production facilities until

they know the regulatory and the tax base landscape. that's not going to change. >> brenda: all right. i've got to move this around. jonas, more waste, more fraud, equals more jobs. >> first of all, as far as does the government have jobs. look at this week's jobs report and they were hiring people and the jobs were lost by business workers and state workers who were coming back and obviously, the government has jobs and can cut them. for example, the government did a census next year, lower unemployment next year, a waste of moan, but a lower unemployment and now let's look at the-- they get a bad wrap. when you look at the economy and the job picture. whether the president sends checks to retirees, or taken the fraudulent cashing of checks to dead people, from the gdp point of view that's completely irrelevant. mo recally you'd rather go to the social security people that deserves the money, but it doesn't, the money isn't burned in the street. if it goes out in fraud as it often does in government programs, it still gets spent. >> brenda: yeah, the dead

people are out at wal-mart, gary b. >> it wasn't cash, somebody cash it. >> the daily double would be if they are were dead convicts. then you're really in a bad shape (laughter) >> look, you know, look, even if you double the number zero, it's still zero, you know? jbl made a good point the net effect. the bottom line you can argue as caroline has, that the stimulus has saved or preserved x number of jobs. what the administration came in with and say, look, this level of unemployment will not go above, whatever it was. 8%, i think they said. and now, we're, you know, we're still keep hovering around 10%. >> the question is, if we had more waste, more fraud. if we just gave it to fraudulent mayors and they handed it out-- >> that's my point, brenda, even if you double the amount of money and look, we're going to absorb the waste and fraud as jonas said, you're still not creating any net jobs. unless there was like a census

company that came up like a google. and even china. >> hold on, guys. >> and i've got to agree with j about. l and they have great points, but we can establish here, you cannot trust the administration with the stimulus. look what they did with the first stimulus. another stimulus is only going to increase inflation and make it necessary to increase interest rates. businesses have a hard time borrowing money. it's the last thing we need for improving economy. >> an and yes, china's economy is swinging because they spent like five or ten times more than we did on their stimulus. and we're not in a financial position to do that because our country went into this thing broke, but the bottom line, you can make jobs if you're smart as a government. they did it in china. >> i'm so glad you're taking toby's role, always getting the last word. >> brenda: hold on. did you see this firefighters

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>> this home owner's nightmare igniting new calls to rein in a department of the bureaucracy run amok. the owners of this house didn't pay a $75 fire protection fee so the fire department reportedly watched their house and everything in it go up in smoke. even the pets. john, you blame government bureaucracy? >> yeah, absolutely.

look, this government cannot run a one car parade. they can't do anything efficiently and i want to make sure-- i don't blame any of the heroic firefighters around this country and with the men with these groups, whether it's true these guys watched this home burn up and the pets inside you need a fire hose and wash them down the sewer, opposite of what the americans should do for one another, a horrible story. >> brenda: gary b, if they didn't pay the fee and what stops the neighbor not paying the fee and fire departments going under. >> in fact, this county did try to do everything. they tried to raise property taxes to pay for the fire department. that was voted down. they tried to pay-go system where we come to your fire, we put it out, you pay us $500 later. they couldn't collect the money. you know, i understand john's poent, b point for the fire department give out the services fee?

who is going to pay for the fire department. if the guy didn't pay the money and put out the fire and i'm next door, i'm not going to pay my money next time either. >> brenda: i know, but pets killed. how can they stand there and watch it. >> disheartening, we're big pet lovers and i've got to tell you the department, very irresponsible and especially the neighbors who pay for the fee. a fireman is obligated to put the fire out just like a doctor is obligated to treat an uninsured patient whether it's a disease not because it's the right thing to do, but it's going to prevent the problem spreading. >> brenda: jonas. >> it's very similar to why you can go to an emergency room. encourages people not to have health insurance, there are some negative effects, moral hazards of doing this, what kind of society, what if there was an infirm person in that house. we taught that person a lesson and the neighbors have a burned out house next door going to be there forever. i will say that this is

actually, what private fire departments were like throughout centuries of history through the roman times, show up and not put out the fire unless you paid them off at that point. that's why we have public fire departments and the way you solve this problem is with credit report, taxes, you can go to jail. that's how a normal society solves a problem. you don't people burn to the ground. if you don't have income taxes, you don't have someone breaking into the house. >> brenda: i'm sorry, i've got to get caroline in, quickly, 15 seconds. >> well, i would say that this shows the limits of libertarian government. i don't know why there was a fee for service for such an important public good. you know, clean air, clean water, fire protection and police protection, we never should have had a private market model at work here because it affects everyone including the neighbor, but this was egregious, especially involving the pets. >> brenda: sad story. thank you so much, caroline. nice to have you. political uncertainty helping

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>> predictions? gary b in the hot seat. >> i hate to rain on everyone's parade, but i think the rally in the market is numbered. i would wait until it hits the old high, 11,200 and then buy dog, an etf that runs counter to the direction of the dow. i think you pick up a quick 70 to 10% by the i end of the year. >> brenda: bull or bear. >> bad, i respect this guy big time, yow i think that the dow is coming much higher by the end of the year. >> brenda: your prediction. >> trw, last quarter beat by. a 1.76 by 1.07. low p.e. >> brenda: cheap. >> yeah. >> brenda: jonas bull or bear. >> he think the government saved by company from dying, i think they're solid. >> brenda: jbl.

>> i've been watching gary b since i was a little kid and-- >> you were little then, guy. >> old stocks applied materials, great composure to emerging markets and tons of cash, stock could be up 30 to 50%. >> brenda: gary b, bull or bear. >> i like the direction, i think the number is a little aggressive. >> brenda: jonas prediction. >> gold is going to tank to 500 by 2012. inverse gold fund which i own, short my weight in gold, my portfolio. it's risky, but i think it's whole gold thing is-- >> bull or bear, tom? >> yeah, bad we don't think it collapses that much, but we're on the sidelines in gold. >> brenda: and stocks taking off to this. whew, what's this flight attendant is dancing about, brand new look for the cost of freedom website, you'll be dancing, too, when you check it out. yeah. just g