services, inc. >> sean: new details about the daring raid that kill osama bin laden. don rumsfeld is here with the latest. >> questions swirl over the al-qaeda leader's burial at sea. some lawmakers say the u.s. >> will the release of the death photos provoke a retaliatory attack? karl rove is here with analysis. >> what did the pakistani government know and when did it know it? >> he could be in pakistan, i always said that. but he could be anywhere he >> sean: were they hiding osama bin laden bin laden? hannity starts right here, right now. tonight, the white house is still debating whether to release a photograph of bin laden's bodying following the raid. cia director panetta hinted

that a picture of the body will be released. officials are debating because the most identifiable image of bin laden is the most gruesome. despite panetta's claim say the white house will make the decision about the release of the picture. we are piecing to the key details of the raid that lead to bin laden's death at this pakistani come upon. even the white house seemed confused about how the white house unfolded. particular whethers an was anned. whether he used one of his wives an a human shield. and whether she emerged dead or alive. we know a team of 24 seals repelled into the compound operate president's orders, bin laden some of his family members and two other families were living in this mansion. reports say bin laden weather and his family occupied the second and third floors. the seals entered on the ground floor they shot and killed to of bin laden's couriers before moving to the second floor. there they founds ha and one

of his wives. his wife reportedly tried to attack a seal and was shot in the leg. next the seals shot and killed bin laden who according to the latest report was not armed. it last 38 minutes. the team exited by helicopter with bin laden's body. now questions are surfacing about the intelligence that lead to osama's capture. and how much of it was gathered through enhanced interguyses conned during the bush administration? joining -- joining me with analysis, donald rumsfeld is back. welcome back, good to see you. >> thank you sean. >> sean: a couple of things. let's start with the photographs. panetta saying, they got photographs, images, they got photographs prior to dumping his body in the sea. my attitude is, why not release all of these pictures and let the public decide, your thoughts? >> well, i'm without conviction on the subject. i suspect that i'd have to see

the photographs to know what my opinion was. but i tilt towards releasing them, as you do. >> sean: i can't come up with a justifiable reason why we wouldn't. you day and qusay was release -- udam and qusay was released, saddam's hanging. former president kennedy with half his skull missing. >> those were not released. those were taken, as i recall the kennedy photos. in real-time. if i'm not mistaken. >> sean: right. >> in this case the concern on the part of the department of defense, i would think, would be, would the photographs contribute to enraging people in the world and causing recruiting to go up for al-qaeda or causing fundraising to go up for al-qaeda? to see that particular person, the face of al-qaeda terror in

a mutilated form. i think that is undoubtedly what is on their minds. i can't imagine there would be anything in the photograph that would reveal anything relating to military techniques or sources and methods. i think the only possible consideration would be the latter. i think that's a tough judgment call. >> sean: why would it be a tough judgment call. when the report is that we shot him in the head? there was a 40 minute service we are told aboard our aircraft carrier, 40 minutes. the burial at sea was supposedly to follow islamiccus tim. -- islamic, custom. his body was cleaned he was covered with a shroud and there's a 40 minute service. the more i think about it, the more inappropriate i think this . the people that died on 9/11, they didn't have a funeral. in many cases we didn't recover their remains. >> that is true.

i think however, at least for myself, i think they made exactly the right decision to dispose of the remains at sea. and not bring them back to land and create a site where he could be considered a martyr of some sort. >> sean: do you think fear is irrational and a little misguided that we might incite or enrage, if we release the photo, we might incite, enrage if he wasn't given a proper funeral, et cetera, following islamic custom? it seems that we are overly concerned about an enemy is never going to like us any way. >> well, you're quite right in terms of al-qaeda. they are not going to like us. they are going to keep doing what they are doing and viciously as they have in the past. i think the concern that undoubtedly people in the government are weighing is not what will al-qaeda think, but

what will other people think of that? i think they are not improperly making judgments that suggest that they would like to avoid causing additional concerns and causing additional people to feel that al-qaeda was mistreated in some way. i'm delighted that he was killed. i'm delighted they disposed of his remains at sea. i think that the questions -- these are side questions on the photos and on the procedures at sea i'm not familiar with what they've done. >> sean: there are many doubters in the muslim world. the taliban has said there is no proof of bin laden's death. explosion of conspiracy theories. >> i've heard that. >> sean: seems they have to do this. i think it is pretty clear now that discovering who this courier was, through strong interrogation techniques, that were ememployed during the

bush administration, -- without which this day would never have occurred. it seems we need to reignite this debate about enhancement interrogation techniques in this country. is that a good idea? >> it is a reasonable idea. is it correct that the cia director panetta today indicated that one of the individuals who provided important information had in fact been waterboarded? is that correct? >> sean: yes. >> that's my understanding. anyone who suggests that the enhanced techniques, let's be , waterboarding, did not produce an enormous amount of valuable intelligence, just isn't facing the truth. the facts are, a general came in, no connection with waterboarding anybody. he looked at all the evidence and concluded that a major frllû9zez intelligence in

our country on al-qaeda came from individuals, only three people who were waterboarded. >> sean: there were only three people. that led to the information of the nickname of the courier. and this by -- we've had this for years and this was being pursued during the bush years. the courier's name was found, he was identified. throughese dropping, we were able to locate him -- through eavesdropping we were able to locate him and then bin laden that brings up rendition, all the things we've discussed, we would not have had this success. i praised the president yet, i think i was a gutsy move to go in and get him so we could have identification. if he had his way and democrats, we wouldn't have had this intelligence. >> you are right. i also agree that he made the right decision. rather than using cruise missiles or drones to attack the facility, i think using the seal teams going in and

getting him physically, identifying him, knowing that's what has happened and being certain about it was the right call. i'm told there was some confusion today on some programs, even one on fox, i think. suggesting that i indicated that no one was who was waterboarded at guantanamo, provided any information on this. that's just not true. what i said was, no one was waterboarded at guantanamo, by the u.s. military. in fact, no one was waterboarded at again tan know, period. three people were waterboarded by the cia, away from guantanamo. and then later brought to guantanamo in fact, as you point out the information that came from those individuals was critically important. >> sean: does stkwraoeub serve as much credit for what happened sunday -- does george w. bush deserve as much credit for what happened sunday as president obama? >> the current administration

would not have had the intelligence nor the special forces numbers, equipment, training, authorities and the experience. we increased their budget four fold during the time i was in the pentagon. we increased the numbers in the special operations people, by about 50%. their equipment has been improved. those capabilities, to deal with a symmetric threats were developed during the george w. bush administration, let there be no doubt about it. we give credit to the current administration for making the decisions they made many and clearly, the bush administration is the one that developed and nurtured those capabilities. >> sean: defense secretary don rumsfeld thanks for being with us. >> thank you. >> sean: should the white house release the photos of weather about? did the u.s. take sensitivity too far by giving osama a religious burial?

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>> burial was done according to islamic practices. the body was washed and placed in a white sheet. the body was placed in a weighted bag. a military officer read prepared remarks translated into arabic. after the words were complete the body was placed on a prepared flat board, tipped up and the deceased body eased into the sea. >> sean: there is video of the burial and may be made public. what critics are most angry about is the ceremony.

>> sean: there are tons of doubters. d%#n saying there is no

>> these are not good muslims, we are at war. >> sean: he killed muslims. i have no doubt this was bin laden. >> he is deader than a door nail. but people will suggest that's not him. and we have a chance to say [ talking over each other ] >> now we have the birthers and deathers. where is donald trump he's going to be asking for the death certificate. >> you can have somebody look at the body independent of us to verify what we did. the operation was a great success in the future if you are listening out there to the administration, put our national security interests ahead of anything else. >> sean: this is sensitivity run amok. >> totally. >> sean: i think there's a belief on the left that we can placate people who want to

kill us. you said this is no time to celebrate. waterboarding which apparently leon panetta is saying and others are saying and the timeline seems to show, contributed to all the intelligence that lead to what happened sunday night. why would you be against that? >> well, i've been a military lawyer for 30 years. i believe that technique doesn't serve our nation well. interrogation techniques that should be classified. by beef with president obama

the >> we should have classified techniques available to the cia that beyond the army field manual that would get good evidence and the enemy should never know what is coming their way. when you take the cia out of interrogation business you are putting our nation at risk. >> sean: president obama was telling our sworn enemies about the interrogation techniques. >> why did you put it online? it makes no sense. >> sean: they were giving miranda warnings to enemy combatants. i have to run. karl rove thinks the white house should release bin laden's proof of death.

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>> sean: tonight the white house is still contemplating whether to release pictures of bin laden's body. cia director panetta hinted that a release of a photograph

might be imminent. >> i don't think there was any question that ultimately, a photograph would be presented to the public. obviously, i've seen those photographs. we've analyzed them. there's no question that it is bin laden. the bottom line is that, you know, we got bin laden. i think we have to reveal to the rest of the world, the fact that we were able to get him and kill him. >> sean: joining me with reaction the author of thetk&l best seller " and consequence" karl rove. good to see you. jay carney said there are sensitivities about the appropriateness of releasing this. we have the controversy over the photos. then we've got the body controversy. here the body is washed. it is put in a shroud. there's a 45 minute ceremony. with arabic interpretation. all of this seems to be predicated on a false notion that the supporters of

bin laden who hate us, are gonna like us somehow because we treated the body well and we their customs, after we put a bullet in this guy's brain. i find that logic per vered. >> yeah, i'm not certain that's the logic. i think the logic is not that support of bin laden will be comforted. but muslims who have no truck with bin laden but are religiously observant would appreciate the sensitivity with which the body was handle after it died. i think we are more interested, less in the jihadist in yemen than the peaceful muslim in . i'm less worried about the -- muslim in . i'm less worried about the burial. we kept ourselves from handling -- let's not -- the photograph is an interesting argument. let's not kid ourselves. releasing a photograph is not gonna keep the nuts inside the

islamic world from believing it might not be bin laden. look, al-qaeda's spokesmen has called bin laden a martyr and said they would attack in retaliation for his murder. if they not going to be convinced by bin laden's own mouthpiece that he's dead. releasing a photograph, let's not kid ourselves, if when we lease the photograph it is not going to convince people he's dead. even his own compatriots have nouned he's dead that's why they want to hurt us in retaliation. it is because we want to demonstrate to the jihadists and islamic world we are capable of taking out their leaders in a brutal fashion. as this necessarily was. >> sean: i think this is a huge vindication. after 9/11, everybody supported going after them. there was really two people, i would include you as a third, in government.

president bush and vice president cheney, to their own detriment in terms of public opinion polls. they stuck by their guns. they stayed with the issue of rendition and the issue of enhanceed interrogations. this would not have happened, but for those policies, and that were implemented by president bush. think, as i do that he deserves as much credit for the success sunday as president obama for making the gutsy decision to do it?

. i have a personal relationship with a lot of the seems in seal team 6. intelligence reform which cut down the walls that separated our civilian and military and within the intelligence community separated the agencies from cooperating with each other. the cia and other intelligence

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government >> sean: a lot of questions are being raised not the least of which is the treatment of bin laden and his body. the fact that is as is part of islamic practice and though they got it wrong he gets clean. he's put in a shroud there's a 40 minute service aboard an

aircraft carrier. he's laid to rest within the 24 hour period as is custom. the 3,000 people killed on 9/11 didn't have that opportunity, did they? . >> no. >> half the people are like usk, we are saying why are they doing this? why this big theatrical treatment? >> sean: why do you think? >> part of their muslim outreach to show how respectful they are of islamic practices. the clerics said they got it wrong any way. they are not satisfying anyone who is in their target audience. i don't get the point. >> sean: like you are trying to appease. we are talking about the radical elements. i would think every muslim should be happy, considering bin laden killed a lot of muslims. do you think this outreach if we are to call it that is going to have success? >> no, you just put a

bullet the guy's brain. i don't mind they dumped him in the ocean. the last thing you wanted to have was a shrine. but this farce of an ing him this kind of respect as an islamic leader. we the last years saying he's not a muslim. >> sean: why wouldn't we whole the body for a longer period of time? a lot of people are doubting, until the picture is released, every conspiracy theory in the world. >> we should have done what was in the interests of the united states. that is to have held the body to dispel any conspiracy theories. somebody who we have been saying for over a decades with a per ver of islam, not a -- perversion of islam, not a real muslim. to do this dog and pony show was pointless. >> it is a strange thing. it does this schizophrenic

relationship that this administration has had towards the muslim world. on the one hand, good we got weather bin laden. good, we surged in afghanistan. on the other hand there's this idea by playing not only to muslim cultural sensitives, by all means do, but the most extreme versions of those sensitivities, that we are currying favor with people who will always look at us as an enemy >> sean: good point. the idea that you can curry favor with them, et cetera, it is impossible. we are at war with them. it seems rather naive even the releasing of the pictures. i want to see the pictures. there are pictures of former president kennedy on the internet with half his skull blown off and people want to see it. udah and qusay, we saw them, we saw saddam hussein hanged. why the reluctance here? >> with the udah and qusay

people were worried waits a violation of the geneva convention. i'm sure one of the things they are worried about now is making sure they have everybody's stories straight who condemned that episode. >> sean: you agree? probably true. it is the same barack obama saying i'm not going to vote to raise the debt ceiling, it is irresponsible. maybe he said something. you never know. >> obama? >> sean: yeah. >> it is possible. >> sean: now i have my research set it for me tonight. thanks guys. our great, great american panel is coming up, straight ahead. ♪ the new blackberry playbook.

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>> they may you think they want you to quit. they want to see if it gets

bad enough will you quit? >> sean: what is your take colonel on what happened the mission itself? >> i was around when we tried to do desert one. many people around that mission in tehran, i still associate with them and i know how they feel. to watch a great op that was just done, how can you not be extremely proud of the military as a whole and the men and women and certainly those men in seal team six that went in and did what these guys have suggested, almost the impossible. it is you have to run a precision mission like that and not have something go wrong and nothing went wrong. >> sean: the fact they got it. i've got to imagine, maybe you know and couldn't tell. you were part of this team six, the person, the guy, the professional, the seal that got to pull that trigger? >> it is what you dream about in training, sean. the guy who got to pull the

trigger still will give credit to everybody on that team, all the supporting -- >> sean: 24 guys. >> they were doing a little high-fiveing on the way out. >> sean: i believe that. i'm sure there was a team to go in. nobody knew who was going to see who? >> you don't know what room he's going to be in. who is going to be in what part of that room to make the killing shot. you couldn't choreograph it like that. this guy just -- happened to be in the right spot at the right time. >> sean: is it your take that they wanted to kill him, there was no desire to take him out of there alive? >> it is difficult to speculate on what the orders were that they were given. i can say that i'm happy with the rum. i think all americans are. >> split second decision. i think they probably would have liked to have captured him. the administration would have rather had a prisoner than a dead body. when you are that young guy sitting there, split second

decision. you are talking about your life and the lives of your teammates, you can't take any chances. >> sean: i agree. we'll talk about some of the controversies discussed in the release of the photographs. can you believe 45 minute funeral on a carrier? we'll get to that. much more with our great, great american panel, next. a fr. you know that comes with a private island. really? no. it comes with a hat. you see, airline credit cards promise flights for 25,00miles, but... [ man ] there's never any seats for ,000 miles. frustrating, isn't it? but that won't happen with the capital one venture card. you can book any airline anytime. hey, i just said that. after all, isn't traveling hard enough? ow. [ male announcer ] to get the flights you want, sign up for a venture card at capitalone.com. what's in your wallet? uh, it's okay. i've played a pilot before.

>> sean: seems like this issue of sensitivity is beginning to bother me. this notion if we don't release the pictures we'll be liked. if we clean bin laden's body and put a shroud on it and give him a proper islamic, by custom funeral, 45 minutes translated into arabic that we will be liked. >> no way, . it is not going to change anybody's opinion about us one way or the other. i probably speak for a lot of americans in saying we should have treated him and his body with the same disrespect that he treated those who died here on 9/11. >> sean: i agree with you. maybe this is why i wouldn't be good at taking orders. if i was given the task of handling that, i would be punching him in the face even though he's dead for good measure. you are laughing, but i would. >> i disagree with the colonel

on one simple thing. i might not have went to that extent in preparing the bodyk as americans is our ability not to drag bodies through the street, to hang them from bridges. we did show respect. not to terrorists, but to the muslim community. which most muslims, i got patients, friends, who are muslims. most muslims are not out to kill americans. by doing that, hopefully we showed them that we are the greatest nation on the planet. >> sean: why do we have to prove this after all we've done for the muslim world in kuwait, iraq, afghanistan, kosovo. why do we have to prove to anybody that america is -- has never been against the muslim world. we've been against radical islamic terrorists? >> i don't think we have to prove anything. what i think we have to do is make sure we are all living american values. one of the things that is

special in the seal teams, all of these men have a warrior's heart. the idea is as a warrior you are distinguished not just by your physical courage, tactical proficiency, also by your mental and moral strength. that's what separates us from our enemies. the important thing is not to prove anything to anybody. but make sure we are living in a way that is consistent with our own values. if we are doing it for that reason it is the right thing to do. >> sean: i think of the 3,000 people that died. we didn't find the remains of a lot of these people. i just can see washing his body. covering him in a shroud. 45 minute funeral. translated into arabic. it is so over-the-top to me. >> we need to remember about how many muslims, he's responsible for killing. we need to ask them what they think. we might be surprised, i don't know. certainly there's a lot of muslims who are outraged about

everything he did, represented and are probably just as happy as we are that he's gone. >> sean: it is obvious now that enhanced interrogations, rendition, black sites, that the harsh questioning led to the intelligence, thanks to the bush administration, i think they deserve as much credit for what happened sunday, i said the president, who i am not a find of, made a gutsy decision going in the way so we could have confirmation that it was bin laden instead of dropping a bomb. the left doesn't want to do that. more importantly done we need these interrogations if we are going to advance in >> you heard what i said about rising above and ing we have good moral values. if there is any information that we can get, by whatever means necessary to keep one person serviceman and woman alive, by all means they are terrorists, they have no rights as far as i'm concerned when it comes to getting information i say do whatever

is necessary. >> sean: when were you becoming a seal did you get waterboarded? >> when i went through seal school, we had a different type of torture call the smoke torture. still a way of making you think you are ing to death. >> sean: you too? >> i didn't have that. some of my friends when i went through seal school, a lucky few had the waterboarding treatment. >> sean: lucky few. >> i took a lot of prisoners in vietnam, did a lot of interrogations. i never treated those people with disrespect. he has information you have to get if itb