raid that killed osama bin laden, former defense secretary donald rumsfeld is here. questions swirl as some lawmakers say that the u.s. went too far. plus, will the release of bin laden's death photos provoke a retaliatory attack. karl rove is here. what does the pakistani government know? and when did it know it? >> he could be, but he could be anywhere. >> were they hiding osama bin laden? we are on the road to 2012 and hannity starts right here, right now. the white house is debating whether to release a photograph of osama bin laden's body, but cia director leon panetta hinted

that a picture of the body will be released. they are debating it because the most identifiable image is the most gruesome. and panetta said the white house will make the final decision about the picture. we're piecing together key deil tails of the raid that led to osama bin laden's death. even the white house seems confused about how it unfolded, particularly about whether osama was armed and whether he used his wife's body as a human shield. but 24 navy seals rapelled into the compound on the president's orders. bin laden and some family members and two other families were living in this mansion at this time. now, the seals entered on the ground floor, where they shot and killed two couriers before moving up to the second floor. there, they found osama and one

of his wives. his wife attacked the seals and they shot her in the leg. according to the latest reports, bin laden was not armed. the team exited the compound by helicopter with bin laden's body. but questions are surfacing about the intelligence that led to the capture and just how much of it was gathered through enhanced interrogations, conducted during the bush administration. joining me with analysis, the one and owned donald rumsfeld is back. welcome back. good it see you. >> thank you, sean. >> a couple of things, let's start with the photographs. panetta's saying they have photographs and images, they have photographs prior to dumping his body in the sea. my attitude is: why not release all of these pictures and let the public decide? your thoughts? >> well, i'm without conviction on the subject. i suspect that -- that i would

have to see the photographs to know what my opinion was but i tilt toward releasing them. >> i really can't come up with a justifiable reason why we wouldn't. i mean, saddam hussein's hanging, that was made public. if you look on google, you can see, if you want to, pictures of former president kennedy with half his skull missing. >> well, those were out -- those were not released. those were taken, as i recall, the kennedy photos, in realtime. if i am not mistaken. >> right. >> in this case, the concern on the part of the department of defense, i would think, would be would the photographs contribute to enraging people in the world and causing recruiting to go up for al qaeda or causing fund-raising to go up for al qaeda, to see that particular person, the face of al qaeda terror in a mutilated form?

so i think that that that is undoubtedly what's on their minds. i can't imagine that there would be anything that would reveal anything relating too military techniques and sources or methods. i think the only possible consideration would be the latter and i think that's a tough judgment call. >> why would it be a tough judgment call when the report is that we shot him in the head? there was a 40-minute service aboard our aircraft carrier, four minutes. and the -- 40 minutes. his body was cleaned. he was covered with a shroud and there is a 40-minute service. frankly, the more i think about it, the more inappropriate i think this is because, you know, the people that died on 9/11, they didn't have a funeral n. many cases, we didn't recover their remains. >> that's quite true. i think, however, that at least

for myself, i think they made exactly the right decision to dispose of the remains at sea and not bring them back to land and create a sight where he could be considered a martyr of some sort. >> do you think this fear is somewhat irrational and misguided that we might insight or enrage fwe released a photo, me might incite, we might enrage, if he wasn't given a proper funeral, following islamic custom? it seems to me that we are overly concerned about an enemy that is never going to like us anyway. >> you are quite right in terms of al qaeda. they are not going to like us, they are going to keep doing what they are doing and do it viciously. the concern that undoubtedly people in the government are weighing is not what will al qaeda think, but what will other people think of that fate?

and i think they are not improperly making judgments that suggest that they would like to avoid causing additional concerns and causing additional people to feel that al qaeda was mistreated in some way. i am delighted that he was killed. i am delighted they disposed of his remains at sea. i think the questions -- these are side questions on the photos and on the procedures at sea. i am not really familiar with what they have done and i have not seen the photos. >> there are many doubters in the muslim world. the taliban has said there is no proof. there is an explosion of conspiracy theories. it seems that they have to do this. let me ask you this, i think it's pretty clear now that discovering who this courier was through strong interrogation techniques that were employed during the bush administration, without which this day would

never have occurred. can't we -- it seems to me we need to reignite this debate about enhanced interrogation techniques in this country. is that a good idea? >> i think it is a reasonable idea. is it correct that the cia director today indicated that one of the individuals who provided important information had in fact been water boarded? >> yes. >> is that correct? >> yes. >> well, that's my understanding. and i think that anyone who suggests that the enhanced techniques -- let's be blunt, water boarding -- did not produce an enormous amount of valuable intelligence, just isn't facing the truth. the facts are, general mike hayden came in, he had no connection with water boarding anybody. he looked at all the evidence and determined that a major

fraction of information from al qaeda, the only three people who were water boarded -- three people. >> and that led to the information of the nickname of the courier and this, by the way, we have had this for years. and this was pursued during the bush years. the courier's name was found, he was identified and through eavesdropping, we were able to locate him and then locate osama bin laden. but that brings up the issue of black sites, enhanced bergs, rendition, we would not have had this success. these are the very policies -- i praised the president, i think it was a gutsy move to go in and get him to have identification. but if he had had his way, we wouldn't have had this intelligence. >> you are right. i agree that he made the right decision. rather than using cruise missiles or drones to attack the facility, i think using the seal teams and going in and getting him physically, identifying him,

knowing that that is what's happened and being certain was exactly the right call. i am told there was some confusion today on some programs, each one on fox, i think, suggesting that i indicated that no one who was water boarded at guantanamo provided any inform on this, that's not true. i said no one was water boarded at guantanamo by the u.s. military. in fact, no one was water boarded at guantanamo, period. three people were water boarded by the cia, away from guantanamo and later brought to guantanamo. and in fact, as you point out, the information that came from those individuals was critically important. >> last question, does george w. bush deserve as much credit for what happened sunday as president obama? well, the current administration would not have had the kinds of intelligence that was critically important, nor would they have had the special forces in the

numbers with the equipment, with the training, with the authorities and with the experience. we increased their budget, i think, four-fold, during the time i was in the pentagon. we increased the numbers in the special operations people, by 50%. their equipment's been improved. those capabilities to deal with asymmetric threats were developed during the george w. bush administration. let there be no doubt about. it we give credit to the current administration for making the decisions they made and clearly, the bush administration is the one that developed and nurtured those capabilities. >> all right. defense secretary, thanks for being with us, sir. >> thank you, sean. >> should the white house release the photos of an executed osama bin laden? karl rove reacts live. did the u.s. take sensitivity too far by giving osama a religious burrialg? lindsay graham says, absolutely.

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>> questions and criticism surrounding osama bin laden's burial at sea continue to emerge. bin laden was given an islamic ceremony that lasted about 45 minutes. now, today, white house press secretary provided a narrative of these controversial events. >> aboard the uss carl vincent,

the burial of osama bin laden was done and the deceased body was washed and placed in a white sheet. it was placed in a weighted bag. a military officer read prepared religious remarks, translated into arabic by a speaker. the bard was placed on a prepared flat board and the deceased body eased into the sea. >> there is video of the burial and it may be made public. but critics are most angry about the ceremony itself. now, my next guest call its a case of sensitivity gone too far. now, south carolina republican lindsay graham. welcome back to the program. >> thank you, sean. >> i agree with you. sensitivity -- 45 minutes! his body's cleaned. he is put in a shroud. it is translated into arabic. i don't see the victims of 9/11 had the consideration from this

evil murderer. why would we do this? >> beats me. i don't think he was a good muslim. i don't think he was a good human being. but here's my concern -- the president made the right call sending boots on the ground to get the guy. you could have bombed him from the air. but we could have never proved we got him. the president did the bold thing to make sure that we get the guy. we want to prove to the world we were successful. released photos. i know it's a bit controversial. but you had the president of pakistan suggest, why don't you release the photos? i think we have to release the photos, rather than dumping him in the ocean, within four or five hour, we should have kept the body, in my view and have independent testing, have a scotland yard person or some, you know, ally do their own dna testing to prove to the world we got the right guy. that's what i was wanting to do. i am worried about our national security more than i am religious sensitivity with osama

bin laden. i agree. i think there may be deep regret that they dump this body because there are a ton of conspiracy theories. there are tons of doubters, the taliban says there is no proof of his death. and experts are questioning the dna identification and they won't release the pictures, which is people going to say, now, they are altered. >> the president was right to think about proving to the world we got him -- >> i agree. that was a gutsy call. >> right. but continue that thought process. if you do get him, then make sure that you can prove to the world beyond a doubt that he -- he is dead. one way to do that is to hold the body, the ultimate evidence. this is an historic event. and have people say, you know, i am not part of the american government, i was there, i conducted my own test. i saw the body myself and i validate what the united states government is saying. there is no doubt he's dead. but it would have been a

continuation of a good idea. we were worried about a 24-hour burial rule. we are at war with people who are not good muslims. these are not good muslims. >> i agree. he killed muslims! >> yeah, he has killed more muslims than anybody else. >> i have no doubt this was osama bin laden. >> he is deader than a door nail, but people will suggest it is not him -- >> now we have the birthers and the deathers. where's the death certificate? donald trump will be asking for the death certificate. >> you could have somebody look at the body, independent of us to verify what we did. the operation was a great success. in the future, if you are listening out there to the administration, put our national security interests ahead of anything else. >> this is sensitivity run amok. i think there is a belief on the left that we can placate people who want to kill us.

but you said this is no time to celebrate water boarding, but leon panetta and others are saying and the timeline seems to show, contributed to the intelligence that led to what happened on sunday night. why would you be against that? >> i have been a military lawyer for 30 years. i believe that technique doesn't serve our nation well. i believe in enhanced interrogation techniques, that should be classified. my beef with president obama is that within two days of taking office, he outlawed the cia from using the techniques in the detainee treatment act that i helped right. the only available techniques are the army field manual. i don't believe water boarding takes us down the righted road. but you should have classified techniques available to the cia. the cia does not interrogate terror suspects and that will come back to bite us. >> that's the point. this is what i was discussing with secretary rumsfeld. without the enhanced

interrogation, we wouldn't have had the success. so in my view, president bush deserves as much credit -- and i give the president credit for being gutsy. but liberals can't seem to do that. this is the one time it's not george bush's fault. it's shocking. >> we should have classified techniques available to the cia that are beyond the army field manual to give good evidence you are putting our nation at risk for no higher purpose. >> president obama was telling our foreign -- >> why do you advertise to the enemy, here's what we are going to do and nothing else? if makes no sense. >> and they would give miranda warnings. unbelievable. coming up, karl rove tells us, he thinks the white house should release the proof of death.

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>> tonight, the white highways is contemplating whether to release pictures of osama bin laden's body, following this raid. leon panetta hinted that a release of a photograph might be

imminent. >> i don't think there was any question that ultimately, a photograph would be presented to the public. obviously, i have seen those photographs. we have analyzed them. and there is no question that it's osama bin laden. the bottom line is that -- you know, we got bin laden. i think we have to reveal to the rest of the world the fact that we were able to get him and kill him. >> joining me with the reaction, the author of "courage and consequence," qarl rove. good to see you, sir itch good to see you, sean. >> jay carney said, there are sensitivities about the appropriateness of releasing this. we have the controversy over the photos. then we have the body controversy. here, the body is washed, put in a shroud. there is a 45-minute ceremony, with arabic interpretation. all thereof seems to be predicated on a false notion that the supporters of bin laden, who hate us, are going to

like us, somehow, because we treated the body well and we respected their customsar we put a bullet in this guy's brain. i find that logic perverted. >> i am not certain that's the logic. i think the logic is not that bin laden supporters will be comforted. but muslims who have no truck with bin laden but are religiously observant would appreciate the sensitivity with which the body was handled after he died. we are less interested in the jihaddist in yi men, than we are in the peaceful muslims in indonesia. i am less worried about the burial. i, we kept ourselves from being criticized for hagging the body, any body in a callous way, by doing that. but the photograph's an interesting argument for me. let's not kid ourselves. releasing a photograph is not going to keep the nuts inside

the islamic world from believing it might not be bin laden. al qaeda spokesman has called bin laden a martyr and said they will attack the united states and the west in retaliation for his murder. if they are not convinced by bin laden's own mouthpiece, let's not kid ourselves, if we release a photograph, it won't convince people that he's dead. even his own compatriots have announced he is dead. that's why they want to hurt us in retaliation. we want to demonstrate to the gehaddists and islamic worlds we are capable of taking out their leader there is a brutal fashion, as this necessarily was. >> i think this is a huge vindication because, in spite of polls, after 9/11, everybody supported going after them, going after them. but there was really two people. i would include you as a third, but in government -- president

bush and vice-president cheney, to their own detriment in terms of public opinion polls. they stuck by their guns and stayed with rendition and the issue of enhanced interrogations. this would not have happened but for those policies and that were implemented by president bush. do you think he deserves as much credit for the success sunday as president obama for making the gutsy decision to do it? >> there were seven important policy decisions made under bush that made sunday night possible. treating these people as enemy combatants, not criminal who is had to be mirandized. putting them in dark places where we could deal with threm in a humane, but nonetheless tough way. enhanced interrogation, with all due respect to lindsay graham. we know from numerous press reports, enhanced interrogation techniques of khalid sheikh

mohammed have led to the code name of this courier. military tribunals in place that we were not under requirement to engage in a, quote, speedy trial, but could milk the people as much as we could. the presence of git plough. you heard from don rumsfeld, under don rumsfeld, he went to transform the military and greatly increase the capacity and the numbers and the funding for our special operators of which our seals are one of several units. and i have a personal relationship with a lot of the seals and seal team six. and finally, intelligence reform which cut down the walls that separated our civilian and military and even within the intelligence community, separated intelligence agencies from cooperating. the cia and the geospacial agency and others were all part of this effort to track down, to go from the courier, the flick name to his real name, to who he was to where he lived and to,

surprise, surprise, a compound that harbored osama bin laden. >> we need to have another debate about rendition, but black sites and enhanced interrogation. i have to wonder if a president that was so reluctant to say war on terrorism, overseas contingessency operations, a president that was going to give a civilian trial to ksm, a president that offered miranda warnings to enemy combatants, you gotta wonder, do you think president oobama learns that george bush was, in fact right, that george bush led to this victory, albeit nine years later. that america found him. do you think he learns? >> he could be so gracious. and in being gracious look so much bigger, if he were to acknowledge that the policies put in place by his predecessor

and reluctantly carried forward by his administration, some of them, most of them, led to this day, but he can't do that. i am sorry to see it, but he just can't. >> karl rove, thank you very much. >> by the way, this is the one time that george bush didn't get blamed. >> well, that's because a good thing happened and the administration probably didn't want to blame him for a good thing. >> everything else, the dog bites, bee stings, if you are feeling sad, that's george bush's fault. ask president obam aisle as the period said on sunday night, we, in a paragraph full of wes and is, we got him. i don't remember him being in office in 2003. >> those who are killing the killing of osama bin laden. for that and much more, coming straight up. ♪

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ilate tonight, extremist elements in the muslim community are reacting to the death of the world's most wanted terrorists. hamas andentious jipt's brotherhood has condemned the death. one demonstrator referred to bin laden an arab warrior. there are serious questions about america's relationship with pakistan in the wake of bin laden's death. among them, just how exactly was the head of the al qaeda terror network able to hide virtually in plain sight in a mansion less than 40 miles from islamabad? did anyone inside the pakistani government know he was there? now, the former president of this country, president musharraf, was asked that very question, earlier today. >> a lot of people used to ask me this question. the first question they usually ask me was whether he was dead or alive. and i always the said, i don't

know. i was given after 9/11 that he was a [inaudible], so therefore, i didn't know. and the other thing, whether he is in pakistan. i said, i just don't know. i used to get agitated when somebody without any information or knowledge or intelligence used to accuse that he was in pakistan. >> musharraf said in that interview that he believes that sunday's raid violated pakistan's sovereignty. here to respond to that and more, fred stevens from "the wall street journal" and fred mccarthy. >> thank you. >> i am not surprised at all how the muslim brotherhood or hamas are reacting or some are calling him an arab warrior and they are pledging revenge. it would be naive to think otherwise, right? >> they have always, especially when they speak in arabic, they have been more intulgent of bin laden than what they're put out in english. but what people need to

understand about the brotherhood, versus al qaeda, they have tactical disagreements, but their bottom line is the same. they want to install shiria. >> it was particularly brazen on the part of the prime minister of the palestinian authority to call him a holy warrior. this is a group that will join in a coalition government with fatah, expecting western support, including american support, for their respective palestinian state. yet, they have no qualms associating themselves as vividly as they just have with the most wanted terrorist -- >> well, a lot of questions are being raised, not the least of which is the treatment of bin laden and his body, the fact that as, is part of islamic practice, even though they got it wrong, he gets cleaned. he is put in a shroud. there is a 40-minute service, abhoard an aircraft carrier and

theb -- then he is laid to rest in 24 hours, as is islamic custom. the victims of 9/11 didn't have that opportunity, did they? >> all of this solicitousness, what does it get us? half the people like us are saying, why are they doing this? why this big, theatrical treatment, to show how respectful they are of islamic practices. in the meantime, the clerics said they got it wrong, anyhow. they are not satisfying anyone in their target audience, i don't get the point. >> that's like you are trying to appease, we are talking about the radical elements, i would think every muslim should be happy, considering osama bin laden killed a lot of muslims. >> yeah. >> do you think this outreach, as if we were to call it that, will have any success? >> no. you put a bullet through the guy's brain.

no, i don't mind that they dumped him in the ocean because the last thing you want is to have a shrine to bin laden in saudi arabia or yemen, or wherever they plief interred him, but the farce here -- >> we spent the last years -- he's not a muslim. >> why wouldn't he hold the body for a longer period of time? a lot of people are doubting, until the picture's released, every conspiracy theory in the world. >> we should have done what was in the strategic interest of the united states, that probably is to have held the body to dispel any conspiracy theories, we can't worry, particularly, somebody who we have been saying for over a decade was a perversion of islam, not a real muslim. to do this dog-and-pony show, which is what it struck me as, when it was not in our strategic interest to do it was pointless. >> you know, it's a strange thing. it shows the schizophrenic

relationship that the administration has had towards the muslim world. on the one hand, good, we got bin laden. good, we surged afghanistan. but playing to muslim cultural sensitivities, but by the most extreme versions of those sensitivities, including burqas and so forth, that we are currying favor with people who always look at us as an enemy. >> that's a good point, as relates to the idea of currying favor with them -- it's impossible. we are at war with them. it seems naive that even in the releasing of the pictures, i want to see the pictures. there are pictures of former president kennedy on the internet with half his skull blown off and people want to see it. we saw the pictures of saddam hussein hanged. why the reluctance here? >> i think you are going to find, if you remember with the saddam hussein episode, a lot of people on the left, in of whom are probably working for this

administration were worried that it's against the geneva convention. >> the thought that i hadn't gotten there, that's probably true. it's the same barack obama. i won't vote to raise the debt ceiling, it's irresponsible. maybe he said something. you never know. >> obama? sure, it's possible. >> now i have my research. good to see you both, appreciate it. let not your heart be troubled. our great, great, great american panel is coming up, straight ahead. aaah!

[ airplane engine whines ] [ grunts ] [ dog barking ] gah! [ children shouting ] [ grunts ] [ whacking piñata ] [ whacking piñata, grunting ]

>> tonight on our great, great american panel, a fox news military analyst is here, a rhodes scholar, u.s. navy seal

and author of the heart and the fist, the education of a humanitarian, the making of a navy seal. he serves in somalia in the battle of mogadishu. memoirs of an elite navy seal sniper. we know that the seal team 6 was responsible for the killing osama bin laden, former navy seal howard wasdin is with us. thank you for your service to the country. you were in this team 6 that we have heard so much about. what can you tell us? >> well, sean, it was an honor and a privilege to be a member of that team. all seals are elite, being privileged to be with seal team 6 is a cut above that made me very happy and very proud to this day. >> that they were part of this. you know, you always worry in a situation like there -- because there is always something that can go wrong. the fact that the helicopter was able to land after being disabled was a blessing and they

finished their mission. no casualties, no injuries, apparently. >> yes. i mean, in this type of op, something usually does go wrong, luckily, there was no loss of life. so it was really good. >> how long were you a navy seal? >> it's been 10 years now, of active and reserve service, sean. >> yeah. i mean, the training that you go through to become a seal, is it as brutal as everything that i have read and seen on television? >> it is as brutal. it is considered the hardest military training in the world. in our class, we started with over 220 people, and by the time we greatgraduated, we graduated with 21. really difficult training. >> how about you? >> we tarted with 138 and graduated with 21. >> wow, that seems -- they want you to quit. they want you out. they want to test you to see if you can take it. >> they really don't want to you quit. they want to see, if it gets bad

enough, will you quit? that's the premise for the training. >> what is your take on what happened, the mission itself? >> sean, i was arounds when we tried to do desert 1, many of the people on that mission in teran, i associate with them and i know how they feel the difficulties of that. to watch a great job like that, with seal team 6, how can you not be extremely proud of the military as a whole and the men and women of seal team 6 and the guys who suggested, they did almost the impossible. it's very tough to run a precision mission and have nothing go wrong. nothing went wrong. >> the fact that haygot it. i have to imagine and maybe you know and you couldn't tell or maybe you know and you couldn't tell, but you were part of this team 6, the person, the guy, the professional, the seal that got to pull that trigger. >> that's what you dream about in training. the guy who got to pull the trigger will give credit to

everybody else on the team, the supporting 24 guys. but for effect, they doing a high five in the heli on the way out. >> i believe that. do they pick the guy? or a team was to go in? so nobody knew wlofs going to see who? >> there is no way, you don't know what room he was going to be nwho was going to be responsible, who will be in what part of that room to make the killing shot. so you couldn't choreograph it like that. this guy happened to be in the right spot at the right time. >> it's your take that they wanted to kill him, there was no desire to take him out alive? >> it is difficult to speculate on what the orders were that they were given. i can essential say i am happy with the result. i think all americans are. >> split-second decision, sean. you know, i think they probably would have liked to have captured him. the administration probably would have rather had a prisoner than a dead body, but when you are the young guy, split-second decision, you are not talking

about your own life, but the life of your teammates, you can't take any chances. >> i agree with you. talk about the controversy, the release of the photographs, the 45-minute -- can you believe, 45-minute funeral on an -- a carrier? much more with our great, great american panel, next. . really? no. it comes with a hat. you see, airline credit cards promise flights for 25,00miles, but... [ man ] there's never any seats for ,000 miles. frustrating, isn't it? but that won't happen with the capital one venture card. you can book any airline anytime. hey, i just said that. after all, isn't traveling hard enough? ow. [ male announcer ] to get the flights you want, sign up for a venture card at capitalone.com. what's in your wallet? uh, it's okay. i've played a pilot before. the 3.6-lite pentastar engine in the jgrand cherokee has a best in class driving range of more than 500 miles per tank.

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>> we continue now with our great, great american panel. it seems like this issue of sensitivity's really beginning to bother me. this whole notion, if we don't release the pictures, we'll be liked. if we clean osama bin laden's body and put a shroud on it and give him a proper islamic, by custom funeral, 45 minutes, translated into arabic, that we will be liked. i find that -- >> no way, sean. it is not going to change anybody's opinion about us. i probably speak for a lot of americans saying we should have treated him and his body with the same disrespect that he treated all of those who died here on 9/11. >> i agree with you. >> i have to be honest, i guess maybe this is why i wouldn't be good at taking orders, if i was given the task of handling it, i would be punching him in the face, even though he's dead, jousts for good measure. you're laughing, but i would. >> i disagree with the colonel

on one simple thing. i might not have went to that extent of preparing the body and all of that, but what separates us as americans is our ability not to drag bodies through the street, hang them from bridges, we did show respect, not to terrorists, buts to the muslim community, which -- i have patients and friend who is are muslims. most muslims are not out to kill americans. so by doing that, hopefully, we showed them that we really are the greatest nation on the planet. >> why do we have to prove this, after all we have done for the muslim world for kuwait and iraq and afghanistan and coze kosovo. that we have been against radical islamic terrorists. why do we have to prove this? >> i don't think we have to prove anything. we have to make sure that we are always living american values. i think one of the things that

is certainly special in the seal teams, all of these men have a warrior's heart. the idea is that as a warrior, you are distinguished, not just by your physical courage, but by your mental and moral strength. that's what separates us from our enemies. so the important thing is not to prove anything to anybody, but to make sure we are living consistent with ouron values. if we are doing it for that reason, it's the right thing to do. >> the 3,000 people who died, we didn't each find remains of a lot of these people. i just can't see washing his body, covering him in a shroud, 45-minute funeral, you know, translated into arabic. it is so over the top to me. >> we need to remember also how many muslims he is responsible for killing. >> he killed muslims! >> we should ask them. we might be surprised. i don't know. we might be surprised of what they feel, certainly, there is a lot of muslims who are outraged about everything he did,

everything he represented repred are probably just as happy as we are. >> the other big issue, it is very obvious that enhanced interrogations, rendition, that the harsh questioning, led to the intelligence, thanks to the bush administration. and i think they deserve as much credit for what happened sunday, and i said the president i am not a fan of, made a pretty gutsy decision by going in the way he did to have confirmation that it is in fact, bin laden. the left didn't want to do that. but don't we need these interrogations to battle against the people who want to introi destroy us. >> you heard what i said about rising above am by the same token, if there is any information we can get, i am saying this by whatever means necessary to keep one american servicemen, man, woman, alive, by all means, they are terrorists. they have no rights when it comes to getting information. i say do whatever is necessary. >> when you were becoming a

seal, did you get water boarded? >> when i went through seal school, we had a different type of torture, the smoke torture. i got smoke torture. it is a way of making you think you are choking to death. >> you too? >> i didn't have that. when i went through the school, select individuals, a lucky few, actually, had the water boarding treatment. >> lucky few. >> a lucky few. >> i took a lot of prisoners in vietnam. i did a lot of bergses. i never treated any of those people with disrespect. you respect the individual, but he has information you have to get if it is going to save lives. not just my own men, but innocent civilians. >> i would have just looked at you and say, what do you want to know?! i say that in the friendliest of ways. guys, you are all american heroes. that's all the time we have left. the news continues with